Your thoughts please on this - (was posted on a web site)
TechnoGypsy said
01:17 PM Apr 28, 2015
First of all (before I get nailed by the Guru's) please read this. I found this snippet of advice posted on the web site of a Caravan Repairer. I have already searched and read every post on "Inverters" on the GN forum and it seems there has been some good advice.
So I am only reposting this snippet - not to rehash the whole subject but only to ask the Whiz Kids if the advice given by this Caravan Repairer site is correct, close to correct or erroneous. (particularly the - "earth pin appliances" and his Rule of Thumb comments)
Its just that it seems to contradict some of what has been expressed on here?
DANGERS OF INVERTERS Time and time again we see caravans coming in where the customer has installed an Inverter into the caravan, there is a power lead from the inverter is joining into the 240volt system of the caravan, powering the entire 240volt system of the caravan.
THIS IS A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION. The caravan requires an earth; this earth comes from the 15amp lead you use to power the caravan. If a fault occurs with either the 240volt wiring or an appliance being connected into the 240volt wiring there are two safety features built into the wiring: 1.The earth wiring itself, the earth provides a ground potential of all metal objects connected to the caravan's 240volt wiring, YES that means the metal cladding on the outside of your caravan as well.
2. The RCDMCD, a residual current device cut-out device stopping the flow of power to earth should a electrocution occur, this does not work if being powered from and Inverter. In short an Inverter should only be connect from a 12volt outlet directly to small appliances, like a phone charger, computer, satellite TV unit or the TV itself, Anything with an earth pin on the plug should not be connected. RULE OF THUMB -Anything with a metal body which has the 240volt power lead connecting it directly to the power point like a toaster or kettle, should never be connected to an Inverter.
-- Edited by TechnoGypsy on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 01:19:48 PM
Phil C said
02:40 PM Apr 28, 2015
That's pretty much on the money.
Never connect the inverter to the caravan AC electrical system. Stand alone appliances do carry some risk as the circuit is not protected BUT if you only connect one appliance at a time is should be OK.
The rule is that only one class one appliances (earthed) should be connected to the inverter. Same applies for generators, connecting these to the van doesn't provide protection of the RCD. This can be overcome by installing a RVD (residual voltage device) by a licenced electrician.
Cheers
The Doo crew said
04:53 PM Apr 28, 2015
Looks like their is a new addition that you can fit to protect yourself when using inverters or inverter generators & ideally suited to the caravan/motorhome industry as it has no moving/wearing parts.
Its called the "DUO ESD" from Powersafe products developed for the mining industry, vibration proof & fits next to your normal RCD.
At just over $120.00 this might be worth looking into, they can supply all the compliance-testing paperwork.
No connection with the company other than using a few of there products over the years & intend fitting this one to my Coaster, the additional protection is needed when using a bigger inverter as we do.
There is also this unit called a RCD/RVD which basically replaces the existing RCD / circuit breaker.. www.aussiebatteries.com.au/
Glen
The Doo crew said
07:30 PM Apr 28, 2015
Same thing, different supplier.
oldtrack123 said
09:30 PM Apr 28, 2015
The Doo crew wrote:
Same thing, different supplier.
HI
Sorry, but Not the same thing
AND only a LICENSED electrician SHALL fit & wire one into the van wiring
Anyone who is not licenced shall not do such work , against all State Electrical acts & regulations!
THe RVD by Safelec IS the ORIGINAL Australian designed unit & is sold by"POWER STREAM"
It can be fitted into the van as an addition to the EXISTING RCD & gives full protection from shocks to earth with both MAINS supply & inverte rOR generators plugged into the VAN power inlet socket
NO connection what so ever with" power safe" who seem to have copied the SAFELEC RVD[Chinese copy ?]
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 10:06:29 PM
oldtrack123 said
09:52 PM Apr 28, 2015
TechnoGypsy wrote:
[1] safety OF INVERTERS Time and time again we see caravans coming in where the customer has installed an Inverter into the caravan, there is a power lead from the inverter is joining into the 240volt system of the caravan, powering the entire 240volt system of the caravan.
[2]THIS IS A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION. The caravan requires an earth; this earth comes from the 15amp lead you use to power the caravan. If a fault occurs with either the 240volt wiring or an appliance being connected into the 240volt wiring there are two safety features built into the wiring: [3].The earth wiring itself, the earth provides a ground potential of all metal objects connected to the caravan's 240volt wiring, YES that means the metal cladding on the outside of your caravan as well.
[4] The RCDMCD, a residual current device cut-out device stopping the flow of power to earth should a electrocution occur, this does not work if being powered from and Inverter. [5]In short an Inverter should only be connect from a 12volt outlet directly to small appliances, like a phone charger, computer, satellite TV unit or the TV itself, Anything with an earth pin on the plug should not be connected. [6]RULE OF THUMB -Anything with a metal body which has the 240volt power lead connecting it directly to the power point like a toaster or kettle, should never be connected to an Inverter.
HI
[1] Only a licensed electrician SHALL install inverters/generators wired permanently into the van 240V wiring
THere are rules & regulation that SHALL be met
[2] If not done correctly ,YES definately life threatening
[3] it generally means ALL the metal, frame ,chassis, metal door, windows & frames metal sink, stove [even gas], metal skin , fixed appliances such as fridge air con etc & portable applianced with a 3pin plug
[4]Totaly correct, the installed RCD is not functiona lwith a generator or inverter plugged into the van power inlet socket !
[5]That is certainly the safest way ,however is generraly considered safe from shocks to earth, IF ONLY ONE apppliance with a 3pin plug is connected AT ANYTIME
[6]Actually some items which do not have exposed metal ,still require a 3pin plug & an earth connection for safety, but refer to [5]
That is why it is best to say ANY thing which has a factory fitted 3pin plug!!
So overall it is in pretty close agreement with ALL MY posts regarding SAFE generator/inverter use
Good to see some who undertstands
PeterQ
The Doo crew said
10:21 PM Apr 28, 2015
This is made in Australia & I hold an electrical licence. Wouldn't suggest anybody do there own electrical work.
-- Edited by The Doo crew on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 10:21:51 PM
Possum3 said
11:34 PM Apr 28, 2015
When using a EU2000i Honda generator plugged into van;Should I utilise an earth wire from designated genny earth/ground attached to Steel peg driven into dampened ground? I am aware of several fatalities caused by technicians using inverters in techie's trucks that were not correctly earthed - causing Telstra to ban the use of inverters in late 90's.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 11:35:20 PM
Possum3 said
11:35 PM Apr 28, 2015
Possum3 wrote:
When using a EU2000i Honda generator plugged into van;Should I utilise an earth wire from designated genny earth/ground attached to Steel peg driven into dampened ground? I am aware of several fatalities caused by technicians using inverters in techie's trucks that were not correctly earthed - causing Telstra to ban the use of inverters in late 90's.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 11:35:20 PM
oldtrack123 said
01:11 PM Apr 29, 2015
Possum3 wrote:
Possum3 wrote:
When using a EU2000i Honda generator plugged into van;Should I utilise an earth wire from designated genny earth/ground attached to Steel peg driven into dampened ground? I am aware of several fatalities caused by technicians using inverters in techie's trucks that were not correctly earthed - causing Telstra to ban the use of inverters in late 90's.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 11:35:20 PM
HI
Quick answer,
For Small portable generators & inverters connected by plug & socket
NO, Do not earth the generator frame to mother earth by ANY MEANS
That includes by earth stake or any connection to water pipes, steel building fram,e ETC
This is no matter what the makers manual may say
This applies to inverters as well
THe rules state "An earth stake is NEITHER required or recommended"
Those that you are referring to are now banned from sale ,because of deaths& serious accidents
They were not an isolated supply
But be warned, it only need ONE earth fault to develop ANYWHERE in the system for your modern generator /inverter to become just as deadly
THAT is why I ALWAYS warn potential users that.:
[a]That no more than ONE class1 appliance[ always have a 3pin plug] should be connected @ any time
You can safely use more than one class 2 [have two pin plugs]with a very low risk of shocks to earth
[c]Your van RCD will be not functional if you connect the generator or inverter via the van power inlet socket
If you intend such use, I would suggest that you have the van fitted with a RVD in conjunction with the RCD
Available from "Safelec"or' Powerstream RV'
PeterQ
Possum3 said
04:29 PM Apr 29, 2015
Thanks Peter; What if I use a Clipsal RCD between Generator and Caravan Inlet?
oldtrack123 said
09:04 PM Apr 29, 2015
Possum3 wrote:
Thanks Peter; What if I use a Clipsal RCD between Generator and Caravan Inlet?
HI
Absolutely NO use .
it will not be functional, Or give any sort of protection against shocks
Not realy any different to the one in a van
It will not have the required wiring to function correctly
The fact that it will trip by pressing the test button do not indicate correct wiring for operation
Apart from having a SAFELEC RVD installed in the van, the only option with the generator is to have one directly fitted & wired into the generator by a qualified electrician
That would need to be approved by the generator makers /supplier if the geny is still under warranty
PeterQ
Aus-Kiwi said
11:18 PM May 3, 2015
The RCD NEEDS to be on same circuit as supply..
Possum3 said
09:00 AM May 4, 2015
Now I am confused, if the RCD is used between generator and van inlet it will be on same circuit as supply.
oldtrack123 said
10:12 PM May 5, 2015
Possum3 wrote:
Now I am confused, if the RCD is used between generator and van inlet it will be on same circuit as supply.
Hi
If you mean this"The RCD NEEDS to be on same circuit as supply.. "
No more than I am
Yes, It will be on the same circuit/s in the van
BUt it will not have the necessary connections for the RCD to operate
The RCD tripping when the RCD "TEST button is pressed, does not indicate it is wired correctly or giving protection
It simply indicates that the RCD mechanism is OK
PeterQ
Aus-Kiwi said
11:02 PM May 5, 2015
The active and neutral needs to be the same potential .. Not wire outsideb men ..
Atleast have one of these .. The newer voltage device is better..
Motorhome ( what I have ) with generater fitted is set up better than caravan..
Fitted right way up.. sheesh inteweb tech!
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 5th of May 2015 11:06:11 PM
First of all (before I get nailed by the Guru's) please read this. I found this snippet of advice posted on the web site of a Caravan Repairer. I have already searched and read every post on "Inverters" on the GN forum and it seems there has been some good advice.
So I am only reposting this snippet - not to rehash the whole subject but only to ask the Whiz Kids if the advice given by this Caravan Repairer site is correct, close to correct or erroneous. (particularly the - "earth pin appliances" and his Rule of Thumb comments)
Its just that it seems to contradict some of what has been expressed on here?
DANGERS OF INVERTERS
Time and time again we see caravans coming in where the customer has installed an Inverter into the caravan, there is a power lead from the inverter is joining into the 240volt system of the caravan, powering the entire 240volt system of the caravan.
THIS IS A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION.
The caravan requires an earth; this earth comes from the 15amp lead you use to power the caravan. If a fault occurs with either the 240volt wiring or an appliance being connected into the 240volt wiring there are two safety features built into the wiring:
1.The earth wiring itself, the earth provides a ground potential of all metal objects connected to the caravan's 240volt wiring, YES that means the metal cladding on the outside of your caravan as well.
2. The RCDMCD, a residual current device cut-out device stopping the flow of power to earth should a electrocution occur, this does not work if being powered from and Inverter.
In short an Inverter should only be connect from a 12volt outlet directly to small appliances, like a phone charger, computer, satellite TV unit or the TV itself, Anything with an earth pin on the plug should not be connected.
RULE OF THUMB -Anything with a metal body which has the 240volt power lead connecting it directly to the power point like a toaster or kettle, should never be connected to an Inverter.
-- Edited by TechnoGypsy on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 01:19:48 PM
Never connect the inverter to the caravan AC electrical system. Stand alone appliances do carry some risk as the circuit is not protected BUT if you only connect one appliance at a time is should be OK.
The rule is that only one class one appliances (earthed) should be connected to the inverter. Same applies for generators, connecting these to the van doesn't provide protection of the RCD. This can be overcome by installing a RVD (residual voltage device) by a licenced electrician.
Cheers
Its called the "DUO ESD" from Powersafe products developed for the mining industry, vibration proof & fits next to your normal RCD.
At just over $120.00 this might be worth looking into, they can supply all the compliance-testing paperwork.
No connection with the company other than using a few of there products over the years & intend fitting this one to my Coaster, the additional protection is needed when using a bigger inverter as we do.
www.powersafe.net.au/shop/the-duo/
www.aussiebatteries.com.au/
Glen
Same thing, different supplier.
HI
Sorry, but Not the same thing
AND only a LICENSED electrician SHALL fit & wire one into the van wiring
Anyone who is not licenced shall not do such work , against all State Electrical acts & regulations!
THe RVD by Safelec IS the ORIGINAL Australian designed unit & is sold by"POWER STREAM"
It can be fitted into the van as an addition to the EXISTING RCD & gives full protection from shocks to earth with both MAINS supply & inverte rOR generators plugged into the VAN power inlet socket
NO connection what so ever with" power safe" who seem to have copied the SAFELEC RVD[Chinese copy ?]
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 10:06:29 PM
HI
[1] Only a licensed electrician SHALL install inverters/generators wired permanently into the van 240V wiring
THere are rules & regulation that SHALL be met
[2] If not done correctly ,YES definately life threatening
[3] it generally means ALL the metal, frame ,chassis, metal door, windows & frames metal sink, stove [even gas], metal skin , fixed appliances such as fridge air con etc & portable applianced with a 3pin plug
[4]Totaly correct, the installed RCD is not functiona lwith a generator or inverter plugged into the van power inlet socket !
[5]That is certainly the safest way ,however is generraly considered safe from shocks to earth, IF ONLY ONE apppliance with a 3pin plug is connected AT ANYTIME
[6]Actually some items which do not have exposed metal ,still require a 3pin plug & an earth connection for safety, but refer to [5]
That is why it is best to say ANY thing which has a factory fitted 3pin plug!!
So overall it is in pretty close agreement with ALL MY posts regarding SAFE generator/inverter use
Good to see some who undertstands
PeterQ
This is made in Australia & I hold an electrical licence. Wouldn't suggest anybody do there own electrical work.
-- Edited by The Doo crew on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 10:21:51 PM
When using a EU2000i Honda generator plugged into van;Should I utilise an earth wire from designated genny earth/ground attached to Steel peg driven into dampened ground?
I am aware of several fatalities caused by technicians using inverters in techie's trucks that were not correctly earthed - causing Telstra to ban the use of inverters in late 90's.
-- Edited by Possum3 on Tuesday 28th of April 2015 11:35:20 PM
HI
Quick answer,
For Small portable generators & inverters connected by plug & socket
NO, Do not earth the generator frame to mother earth by ANY MEANS
That includes by earth stake or any connection to water pipes, steel building fram,e ETC
This is no matter what the makers manual may say
This applies to inverters as well
THe rules state "An earth stake is NEITHER required or recommended"
Those that you are referring to are now banned from sale ,because of deaths& serious accidents
They were not an isolated supply
But be warned, it only need ONE earth fault to develop ANYWHERE in the system for your modern generator /inverter to become just as deadly
THAT is why I ALWAYS warn potential users that.:
[a]That no more than ONE class1 appliance[ always have a 3pin plug] should be connected @ any time
You can safely use more than one class 2 [have two pin plugs]with a very low risk of shocks to earth
[c]Your van RCD will be not functional if you connect the generator or inverter via the van power inlet socket
If you intend such use, I would suggest that you have the van fitted with a RVD in conjunction with the RCD
Available from "Safelec"or' Powerstream RV'
PeterQ
HI
it will not be functional, Or give any sort of protection against shocks
Not realy any different to the one in a van
It will not have the required wiring to function correctly
The fact that it will trip by pressing the test button do not indicate correct wiring for operation
Apart from having a SAFELEC RVD installed in the van, the only option with the generator is to have one directly fitted & wired into the generator by a qualified electrician
That would need to be approved by the generator makers /supplier if the geny is still under warranty
PeterQ
Hi
If you mean this"The RCD NEEDS to be on same circuit as supply.. "
No more than I am
Yes, It will be on the same circuit/s in the van
BUt it will not have the necessary connections for the RCD to operate
The RCD tripping when the RCD "TEST button is pressed, does not indicate it is wired correctly or giving protection
It simply indicates that the RCD mechanism is OK
PeterQ
The active and neutral needs to be the same potential .. Not wire outsideb men ..
Atleast have one of these .. The newer voltage device is better..
Motorhome ( what I have ) with generater fitted is set up better than caravan..
Fitted right way up.. sheesh inteweb tech!
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Tuesday 5th of May 2015 11:06:11 PM
THAT will be of no more use than the RCD already fitted, or the portable type RCDs, with a generator or inverter
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 11th of May 2015 11:01:09 PM