Last week we spent 5 days and nights freedom camping around Central Victoria. We did not need to add water but used 5 liters of petrol in genset as we required aircon one day/evening. We were able to charge phones Ipads and laptop as well as run my CPAP machine. We took advantage to do as much device charging as we could when the genset was running.
So, I feel that I should have taken the foldable portable solar panels, although it now appears that I am not well enough to muck around using the portable panels. I am going to have to make sure all jobs around the use of the van are made as easy as possible for us.
Now, I will look at another panel on the van roof. Question? Does it matter if the new panel is not identical specs to the original and can I connect the two panels on the roof in parallel and use the one set of wires to the solar controller? Providing that the one cable is large enough to carry the current from both panels?
Also how do I test the Setec cut out voltage setting, if it indeed has one.
Aussie Paul.
SnowT said
08:13 PM Mar 24, 2015
Paul it should not matter.... Depending on the length of the cable it will not be affected... [Real short sharp comment]
Paul.. Re the CPaP system.. I use one as well and with my system I have no major issues... I do use about 20-30Ah over night.. but you need to take into account that I'm using a 24v system not a 12v system so you need to double the result's..
-- Cpap machine..
-- Fridge..
-- TV Laptop, General charging of gear..
Juergen
Peter_n_Margaret said
08:32 PM Mar 24, 2015
It does matter.
The new panel(s) should be close to the voltage of the existing one.
Maybe it is possible to put the portable panels permanently on the roof.
It is not possible to comment on the cable size and controller suitability unless you give us some information about them and the panels you propose.
Cheers,
Peter
aussie_paul said
09:09 PM Mar 24, 2015
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
It does matter. The new panel(s) should be close to the voltage of the existing one. Maybe it is possible to put the portable panels permanently on the roof.
It is not possible to comment on the cable size and controller suitability unless you give us some information about them and the panels you propose.
Cheers, Peter
I believe it is a 100W panel, through a Morningstar ProStar 15, into two 100W AGMs in parallel for my 12V system. How far away from 100W can I go? 200W?
Aussie Paul.
aussie_paul said
09:12 PM Mar 24, 2015
SnowT wrote:
Paul it should not matter.... Depending on the length of the cable it will not be affected... [Real short sharp comment]
Paul.. Re the CPaP system.. I use one as well and with my system I have no major issues... I do use about 20-30Ah over night.. but you need to take into account that I'm using a 24v system not a 12v system so you need to double the result's..
-- Cpap machine.. -- Fridge.. -- TV Laptop, General charging of gear..
Juergen
Using 12v DC my CPAP draws around 4.5 amps with humidifier, and 1.9 without Juergen.
Aussie Paul.
oldtrack123 said
10:25 PM Mar 24, 2015
aussie_paul wrote:
Last week we spent 5 days and nights freedom camping around Central Victoria. We did not need to add water but used 5 liters of petrol in genset as we required aircon one day/evening. We were able to charge phones Ipads and laptop as well as run my CPAP machine. We took advantage to do as much device charging as we could when the genset was running.
So, I feel that I should have taken the foldable portable solar panels, although it now appears that I am not well enough to muck around using the portable panels. I am going to have to make sure all jobs around the use of the van are made as easy as possible for us.
Now, I will look at another panel on the van roof.
Question?[1] Does it matter if the new panel is not identical specs to the original and
[2]can I connect the two panels on the roof in parallel
and[3] use the one set of wires to the solar controller? Providing that the one cable is large enough to carry the current from both panels?
4Also how do I test the Setec cut out voltage setting, if it indeed has one.
Aussie Paul.
Hi Paul
[1]does not about the WATTS , but should be rated at the same PPP voltage
2] Yes ,no reason why you cannot ,just pos to pos & neg to neg
[4] Ido not think the Setec itself has a low voltage cutout ,but i could be wrong.
There may be one fitted as an additional component
Testing the cutout point , essentially means removing the mains & solar power then loading the battery to discharge it
'IF a low voltage cutout is fitted it should shut off around 11.8V or higher
PeterQ
Jaahn said
08:35 AM Mar 25, 2015
I believe it is a 100W panel, through a Morningstar ProStar 15, into two 100W AGMs in parallel for my 12V system. How far away from 100W can I go? 200W?
Aussie Paul.
Hi Paul,
There is not much problem running two panels in parallel even if they are different sizes. Just make sure they are both 36 cell panels.
However if you put a second 100W panel you will double the current and that will at the maximum the Morningstar ProStar 15 can handle at peak output. You do not know if the existing wires can handle that OK either but may be OK. If you put any bigger panel up there you will have to change the controller.
jaahn
aussie_paul said
10:54 PM Mar 25, 2015
Looking at the van paperwork the solar panel fitted was a 120 Watt. I will count the cell panels tomorrow. I will have to check the model number of the Setec tomorrow to see if it does have a low voltage cut out. These are the Setec specs from my manual.
Right, now looking like another 120 Watt or more panel and possibly larger controller and heavier wiring. I might look at a controller with a remote panel.
Any recommendations re the solar panel and a controller with remote panel?
Aussie Paul.
oldtrack123 said
11:26 PM Mar 25, 2015
aussie_paul wrote:
Looking at the van paperwork the solar panel fitted was a 120 Watt. I will count the cell panels tomorrow. I will have to check the model number of the Setec tomorrow to see if it does have a low voltage cut out. These are the Setec specs from my manual.
Aussie Paul.
HI Paul
Yes,That Setec does have a low voltage battery disconnect
But it is too low [10V] to protect any LA battery
Brenda and Alan said
09:15 AM Mar 26, 2015
This Setec unit is a primarily a regulated power supply and only a marginal battery charger. It puts out a fixed voltage of 13.65 volts as a power supply. You are probably not getting very much power back into the battery from this unit whilst running the gen set. I woud think most of your battery charge is coming from your solar panel.You may be better off with fitting a dedicated battery charger that will put much more back into the battery when running your generator. However check warning in the manual regarding max voltage of Aux input on the Setec and max voltage that can be applied across battery (14.8volts) whilst the Setec unit is present.
Alan
aussie_paul said
12:34 PM Mar 26, 2015
Brenda and Alan wrote:
This Setec unit is a primarily a regulated power supply and only a marginal battery charger. It puts out a fixed voltage of 13.65 volts as a power supply. You are probably not getting very much power back into the battery from this unit whilst running the gen set. I woud think most of your battery charge is coming from your solar panel.You may be better off with fitting a dedicated battery charger that will put much more back into the battery when running your generator. However check warning in the manual regarding max voltage of Aux input on the Setec and max voltage that can be applied across battery (14.8volts) whilst the Setec unit is present.
Alan
Thanks Alan, I guess that would be the same for the Setec aux input from the tug when towing!!! Next trip I will use the portable panels to see if they are worth the effort. I am learning so much with every trip. We don't go cold or hungry on our trips so that's a plus!!!
A couple of years ago I asked my IT knowledgeable son "how long will it take me to learn enough about IT stuff." Matt said, " Dad you could never live long enough"!!! Thanks Matt. LOL
Aussie Paul.
aussie_paul said
08:37 PM Mar 28, 2015
I wonder if the cut out voltage is adjustable? I could not find any variable resistors on the circuit board. I am a bit reluctant to get into the "guts" of the unit as I generally wreck more stuff than I fix!!!!
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 28th of March 2015 08:38:32 PM
Yesterday and today I have been working on getting the portable solar panel sorted. I took the regulator off the portable panels and ran the wire through an Anderson plug to the Morningstar ProStar 15 controller under the bed with the two 100 amp batteries. My intention is to relocate the Morningstar ProStar 15 controller where I can just glance to see what is happening and probably relocate the portable Anderson plug inside the front boot to save having a cable come through the door. So, next trip will be a test of what I have done.
The panel on the roof is showing 20.1 volts open circuit and the portable 16.1 volts.
If I find I need a larger controller do I get a MPPT regulator??
Forgot, what is the recommended low voltage cut out setting for AGM batteries?
Aussie Paul.
aussie_paul said
08:17 PM Apr 3, 2015
oldtrack123 wrote
HI Paul
Yes,That Setec does have a low voltage battery disconnect
But it is too low [10V] to protect any LA battery
Thanks Ralph. Strange that the manufacturer would use a system (Setec with 10 volt shut off) that was not suited to the 100 ah AGM battery they installed!!! It appears the van industry is kinda "strange"!!!!
Should I try and find the variable resistor and up the voltage to??? or purchase a dedicated programmable shut off voltage device??
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Friday 3rd of April 2015 08:18:10 PM
aussie_paul said
08:28 PM Apr 3, 2015
I have emailed Setec and asked the question re upping the cut out voltage.
Aussie Paul.
Baz421 said
08:31 PM Apr 3, 2015
aussie_paul wrote:
Forgot, what is the recommended low voltage cut out setting for AGM batteries?
Aussie Paul.
Well I'll tell you the practical side first.
Our 4 X 100ah AGM batteries lasted 8 years as we stopped using them when voltage down to 12V. This way we get good use of 200aH AND PRESERVE THE BATTERIES.
Looking to replace some batteries now so numerous enquiries and searches most say 10.6V is minimum voltage to run down to BUT DOWNSIDE IS THE NUMBER OF CYCLES (charge/discharge) is reduced to about 30% of ideal, and if batteries used on daily cycle up/down THEY COULD ONLY LAST 1-2 YEARS.
Battery life is entirely up to the user IMHO (barring any manufacturing issues obviously).
aussie_paul said
08:36 PM Apr 3, 2015
Baz421 wrote:
Well I'll tell you the practical side first.
Our 4 X 100ah AGM batteries lasted 8 years as we stopped using them when voltage down to 12V. This way we get good use of 200aH AND PRESERVE THE BATTERIES.
Looking to replace some batteries now so numerous enquiries and searches most say 10.6V is minimum voltage to run down to BUT DOWNSIDE IS THE NUMBER OF CYCLES (charge/discharge) is reduced to about 30% of ideal, and if batteries used on daily cycle up/down THEY COULD ONLY LAST 1-2 YEARS.
Battery life is entirely up to the user IMHO (barring any manufacturing issues obviously).
I reckon that the Setec could be user adjustable as the circuit shows a variable pot. Is it worth having a look inside it or should I just get one of the above items?
Aussie Paul.
03_Troopy said
02:19 PM Apr 9, 2015
the one on the top link I fitted to my AUX battery in my vehicle.. got it from Jaycar for about $35.00. But they are only good for 20A or they say, 40A if you supply a heat sink for it. I used mine to operate a relay which cuts the load on the AUX battery. The thing is you need to be able to access the load feed and not the connection between the charger and the battery. Otherwise you won't be able to recharge the battery. That means you need to do it internally in the charger, unless the charger supply to battery and load feed are on separate cables.
aussie_paul said
09:38 PM Apr 9, 2015
03_Troopy wrote:
the one on the top link I fitted to my AUX battery in my vehicle.. got it from Jaycar for about $35.00. But they are only good for 20A or they say, 40A if you supply a heat sink for it. I used mine to operate a relay which cuts the load on the AUX battery. The thing is you need to be able to access the load feed and not the connection between the charger and the battery. Otherwise you won't be able to recharge the battery. That means you need to do it internally in the charger, unless the charger supply to battery and load feed are on separate cables.
Ok Bob, thanks. I had not thought about the charging when disconnected by cut off.
Aussie Paul.
aussie_paul said
06:02 PM Jul 12, 2015
Back after 10 days around Adelaide up to Clare, and home via Murray Bridge due to a possible auto problem. In CP for 3 days and the rest free camping using Wikicamps. BOY winter, with the sun so low, and a spell of cloudy weather saw us struggle keeping van batteries charged. I had my foldables out but had to run genset soon after the sun went down. Fortunately the genset is remotely controlled. I had to go without CPAP a couple of nights.
Anyway, all of the info from the above posts will now be perused. I will measure up and see what I can fit easily. Might as well go another 200 watts on roof, so that will be 320 on the roof and 120 portable. The genset through the Setec is very ordinary as is from the tow vehicle, only a couple of amps depending on what is being used. I have made an upverter from 12 to 19volts for laptop charger and did not get time to fit a switch. So that was drawing 1.5 amps 24 x 7. The Sphere TV is dragging 5 amps, very greedy!!
Aussie Paul.
aussie_paul said
11:23 PM Jul 14, 2015
Back after 10 days around Adelaide up to Clare, and home via Murray Bridge due to a possible auto problem. In CP for 3 days and the rest free camping using Wikicamps. BOY winter, with the sun so low, and a spell of cloudy weather saw us struggle keeping van batteries charged. I had my foldables out but had to run genset soon after the sun went down. Fortunately the genset is remotely controlled. I had to go without CPAP a couple of nights.
Anyway, all of the info from the above posts will now be perused. I will measure up and see what I can fit easily. Might as well go another 200 watts on roof, so that will be 320 on the roof and 120 portable. The genset through the Setec is very ordinary as is from the tow vehicle, only a couple of amps depending on what is being used. I have made an upverter from 12 to 19volts for laptop charger and did not get time to fit a switch. So that was drawing 1.5 amps 24 x 7. The Sphere TV is dragging 5 amps, very greedy!!
Update..The diesel heater draws up to 10 amps when firing up and about 1.8 when idling along keeping us warm.
The amps sure add up when you start measuring every device!!!
I will run a 6 B&S from the alternator output in parallel with the 8 B&S that goes to the fridge, only working when engine running. The 6 B&S can then go through a DC to DC charger at the house batteries. I should be able to run the 6 B&S beside and tie it to the 8 B&S already wired to the 12 pin plug. The 6 B&S will go through an Anderson plug. If I am not buggered by the time I do that I will use a second Anderson plug for the fridge.
After that a 200 watt solar panel. I think that I will use two solar regs for the two solar panels as I have both of those already, and the DC to DC charger from tug to house batteries.
That is the plan as I head for bed tonight!!!
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Tuesday 21st of July 2015 11:09:57 PM
aussie_paul said
10:15 PM Aug 4, 2015
The 200 watt panel turned up today and I have drilled a hole and installed 8 B&S cable. I may need a hand from our sons once I get the mounting bits and pieces sorted.
Now, having 320 watts of solar means my 15 amp controller may not be big enough. I do have a 10 amp controller that I could run the 120 watt panel into, and use the 15 amp for the new 200 watt panel. Any thoughts please?
Aussie Paul.
Tools stowed ready for tomorrow!!!!!
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Tuesday 4th of August 2015 10:18:24 PM
Last week we spent 5 days and nights freedom camping around Central Victoria. We did not need to add water but used 5 liters of petrol in genset as we required aircon one day/evening. We were able to charge phones Ipads and laptop as well as run my CPAP machine. We took advantage to do as much device charging as we could when the genset was running.
So, I feel that I should have taken the foldable portable solar panels, although it now appears that I am not well enough to muck around using the portable panels. I am going to have to make sure all jobs around the use of the van are made as easy as possible for us.
Now, I will look at another panel on the van roof. Question? Does it matter if the new panel is not identical specs to the original and can I connect the two panels on the roof in parallel and use the one set of wires to the solar controller? Providing that the one cable is large enough to carry the current from both panels?
Also how do I test the Setec cut out voltage setting, if it indeed has one.
Aussie Paul.
Paul.. Re the CPaP system.. I use one as well and with my system I have no major issues... I do use about 20-30Ah over night.. but you need to take into account that I'm using a 24v system not a 12v system so you need to double the result's..
-- Cpap machine..
-- Fridge..
-- TV Laptop, General charging of gear..
Juergen
The new panel(s) should be close to the voltage of the existing one.
Maybe it is possible to put the portable panels permanently on the roof.
It is not possible to comment on the cable size and controller suitability unless you give us some information about them and the panels you propose.
Cheers,
Peter
I believe it is a 100W panel, through a Morningstar ProStar 15, into two 100W AGMs in parallel for my 12V system. How far away from 100W can I go? 200W?
Aussie Paul.
Using 12v DC my CPAP draws around 4.5 amps with humidifier, and 1.9 without Juergen.
Aussie Paul.
Hi Paul
[1]does not about the WATTS , but should be rated at the same PPP voltage
2] Yes ,no reason why you cannot ,just pos to pos & neg to neg
[4] Ido not think the Setec itself has a low voltage cutout ,but i could be wrong.
There may be one fitted as an additional component
Testing the cutout point , essentially means removing the mains & solar power then loading the battery to discharge it
'IF a low voltage cutout is fitted it should shut off around 11.8V or higher
PeterQ
Hi Paul,
There is not much problem running two panels in parallel even if they are different sizes. Just make sure they are both 36 cell panels.
However if you put a second 100W panel you will double the current and that will at the maximum the Morningstar ProStar 15 can handle at peak output. You do not know if the existing wires can handle that OK either but may be OK. If you put any bigger panel up there you will have to change the controller.
jaahn
Looking at the van paperwork the solar panel fitted was a 120 Watt. I will count the cell panels tomorrow. I will have to check the model number of the Setec tomorrow to see if it does have a low voltage cut out. These are the Setec specs from my manual.
Aussie Paul.
Right
, now looking like another 120 Watt or more panel and possibly larger controller and heavier wiring. I might look at a controller with a remote panel.
Any recommendations re the solar panel and a controller with remote panel?
Aussie Paul.
HI Paul
Yes,That Setec does have a low voltage battery disconnect
But it is too low [10V] to protect any LA battery
This Setec unit is a primarily a regulated power supply and only a marginal battery charger. It puts out a fixed voltage of 13.65 volts as a power supply. You are probably not getting very much power back into the battery from this unit whilst running the gen set. I woud think most of your battery charge is coming from your solar panel.You may be better off with fitting a dedicated battery charger that will put much more back into the battery when running your generator. However check warning in the manual regarding max voltage of Aux input on the Setec and max voltage that can be applied across battery (14.8volts) whilst the Setec unit is present.
Alan
Thanks Alan, I guess that would be the same for the Setec aux input from the tug when towing!!! Next trip I will use the portable panels to see if they are worth the effort. I am learning so much with every trip. We don't
go cold or hungry on our trips so that's a plus!!!
A couple of years ago I asked my IT knowledgeable son "how long will it take me to learn enough about IT stuff." Matt said, " Dad you could never live long enough"!!! Thanks Matt. LOL
Aussie Paul.
I wonder if the cut out voltage is adjustable? I could not find any variable resistors on the circuit board. I am a bit reluctant to get into the "guts" of the unit as I generally wreck more stuff than I fix!!!!
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Saturday 28th of March 2015 08:38:32 PM
These are from the Setec manual.
Aussie Paul.
Yesterday and today I have been working on getting the portable solar panel sorted. I took the regulator off the portable panels and ran the wire through an Anderson plug to the Morningstar ProStar 15 controller under the bed with the two 100 amp batteries. My intention is to relocate the Morningstar ProStar 15 controller where I can just glance to see what is happening and probably relocate the portable Anderson plug inside the front boot to save having a cable come through the door. So, next trip will be a test of what I have done.
The panel on the roof is showing 20.1 volts open circuit and the portable 16.1 volts.
If I find I need a larger controller do I get a MPPT regulator??
Aussie Paul.
Forgot, what is the recommended low voltage cut out setting for AGM batteries?
Aussie Paul.
Thanks Ralph. Strange that the manufacturer would use a system (Setec with 10 volt shut off) that was not suited to the 100 ah AGM battery they installed!!!
It appears the van industry is kinda "strange"!!!!
Should I try and find the variable resistor and up the voltage to??? or purchase a dedicated programmable shut off voltage device??
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Friday 3rd of April 2015 08:18:10 PM
I have emailed Setec and asked the question re upping the cut out voltage.
Aussie Paul.
Well I'll tell you the practical side first.
Our 4 X 100ah AGM batteries lasted 8 years as we stopped using them when voltage down to 12V. This way we get good use of 200aH AND PRESERVE THE BATTERIES.
Looking to replace some batteries now so numerous enquiries and searches most say 10.6V is minimum voltage to run down to BUT DOWNSIDE IS THE NUMBER OF CYCLES (charge/discharge) is reduced to about 30% of ideal, and if batteries used on daily cycle up/down THEY COULD ONLY LAST 1-2 YEARS.
Battery life is entirely up to the user IMHO (barring any manufacturing issues obviously).
Ok Barry, thanks for that.
Aussie Paul.
Setecs response..
Aussie Paul.
From: Paul Bruty [mailto:paulbruty@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 2 April 2015 5:42 PM
To: sales@setec.com.au
Subject:
Hi at Setec, we have a Jayco van with your ST35-II. Can the low voltage cut off point be raised, as the 10v setting will damage my agm batteries?
Regards, Paul.
Laura Lippert <laura.lippert@setec.com.au>
Hi Paul
The low voltage disconnect is not user settable.
I would recommend a battery monitor to allow you of your battery voltage though.
Cheers,
Laura Lippert
Sales Account Manager
laura.lippert@setec.com.au
SETEC Pty Ltd
19 Henderson Road, Knoxfield 3180, Victoria, Australia
Phone: +61 3 9763 0962
Fax: +61 3 9763 8789
Direct: +61 3 9213 8414
Mobile: +61 4 0636 8601
teambmpro.com
Are these the type of gadget I need at the battery outlet?
Aussie Paul.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/370984921871?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290871671492?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I reckon that the Setec could be user adjustable as the circuit shows a variable pot. Is it worth having a look inside it or should I just get one of the above items?
Aussie Paul.
Ok Bob, thanks. I had not thought about the charging when disconnected by cut off.
Aussie Paul.
Back after 10 days around Adelaide up to Clare, and home via Murray Bridge due to a possible auto problem. In CP for 3 days and the rest free camping using Wikicamps. BOY winter, with the sun so low, and a spell of cloudy weather saw us struggle keeping van batteries charged. I had my foldables out but had to run genset soon after the sun went down. Fortunately the genset is remotely controlled. I had to go without CPAP a couple of nights.
Anyway, all of the info from the above posts will now be perused. I will measure up and see what I can fit easily. Might as well go another 200 watts on roof, so that will be 320 on the roof and 120 portable. The genset through the Setec is very ordinary as is from the tow vehicle, only a couple of amps depending on what is being used. I have made an upverter from 12 to 19volts for laptop charger and did not get time to fit a switch. So that was drawing 1.5 amps 24 x 7. The Sphere TV is dragging 5 amps, very greedy!!
Aussie Paul.
Back after 10 days around Adelaide up to Clare, and home via Murray Bridge due to a possible auto problem. In CP for 3 days and the rest free camping using Wikicamps. BOY winter, with the sun so low, and a spell of cloudy weather saw us struggle keeping van batteries charged. I had my foldables out but had to run genset soon after the sun went down. Fortunately the genset is remotely controlled. I had to go without CPAP a couple of nights.
Anyway, all of the info from the above posts will now be perused. I will measure up and see what I can fit easily. Might as well go another 200 watts on roof, so that will be 320 on the roof and 120 portable. The genset through the Setec is very ordinary as is from the tow vehicle, only a couple of amps depending on what is being used. I have made an upverter from 12 to 19volts for laptop charger and did not get time to fit a switch. So that was drawing 1.5 amps 24 x 7. The Sphere TV is dragging 5 amps, very greedy!!
Aussie Paul.
Aussie Paul.
Update..The diesel heater draws up to 10 amps when firing up and about 1.8 when idling along keeping us warm.
The amps sure add up when you start measuring every device!!!
I will run a 6 B&S from the alternator output in parallel with the 8 B&S that goes to the fridge, only working when engine running. The 6 B&S can then go through a DC to DC charger at the house batteries. I should be able to run the 6 B&S beside and tie it to the 8 B&S already wired to the 12 pin plug. The 6 B&S will go through an Anderson plug. If I am not buggered by the time I do that I will use a second Anderson plug for the fridge.
After that a 200 watt solar panel. I think that I will use two solar regs for the two solar panels as I have both of those already, and the DC to DC charger from tug to house batteries.
That is the plan as I head for bed tonight!!!
Aussie Paul.
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Tuesday 21st of July 2015 11:09:57 PM
The 200 watt panel turned up today and I have drilled a hole and installed 8 B&S cable. I may need a hand from our sons once I get the mounting bits and pieces sorted.
Now, having 320 watts of solar means my 15 amp controller may not be big enough. I do have a 10 amp controller that I could run the 120 watt panel into, and use the 15 amp for the new 200 watt panel. Any thoughts please?
Aussie Paul.
Tools stowed ready for tomorrow!!!!!
-- Edited by aussie_paul on Tuesday 4th of August 2015 10:18:24 PM