Are Trailer Stability controll systems "all that"?
Muddy said
05:02 PM Mar 22, 2015
Interesting conversation with a neighbour last night. He mentioned that there is a growing concern that Trailer stability systems are still requiring some refinement before they could be considered good technology. I hope to goodness that the RMT mob understand these concerns before they decide to act and make them a mandatory fitting. The issue is that they are not adjustable. Now before anyone tries to tell me that this is probably a good thing here is the reason why my neighbour felt it is in fact a bad thing. There is no sensitivity control allowing the user to preset when the ESC activates. The theory being that the ESC is operating for the slightest movement of the van to give a nice straight tow. All well and good but his buddy reported fuel consumption figures with ESC as 22lt/100km as opposed to 13 achieved with the system off. The trailer brakes are operating so much that it is dragging him back almost all the time. Also, there is some groundswell in the belief that vans with ESC are ripping through their braking system components much faster then those without it fitted.
So, Opinion time....do I think ESC is a good thing? Well it earns me a discount on my Insurance so that's good. If it steadies the van without using archaic bull bars when situations dictate that it requires to act then yes. But achieving a straight, safe and comfortable tow has, for many years, been down to the driver and if a costly system is going to increase fuel consumption and wreck brakes while loading up my tow car unnecessarily then, well, no, that's not good. In my case my tug has it's own trailer stability system which reduces vehicle power and applies the vehicle brakes subtly when any sway is detected on the trailer, so while my new van has ESC fitted, I would be favouring the car doing the brainwork and reducing the wear and tear of the system overall by turning ESC on the van off.
Very interested to hear others thought on this.
-- Edited by Muddy on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 05:23:57 PM
Bruce and Bev said
06:25 PM Mar 22, 2015
I had a Jayco 22 fter before ESC came out. From new, we needed the spring bars between the tow ball and tow bar which was a pain, especially when I made my wife take them on and off (yeah....in my dreams)
I bought a new Supreme 7 mnths ago and had the ALKO ESC fitted. I no longer have the van being sucked in to a truck passing me or overtaking me on a narrow road (most of Australia) - it stays rock steady, but I have compared my diesel use with others towing similar vans and tow vehicles and theres no difference in fuel consumption.
Ive just had the brakes checked as part of up-grading the ATM on my 'van and the Inspector didn't see any noticeable wear on the brakes.
Wouldn't be without my 'van ESC
Woody n Sue said
06:26 PM Mar 22, 2015
IMHO they are for people shouldn't be towing a van in the first place
Towing should be a seperate licence endorsement including how to back it up
End of rant
Phil C said
08:25 PM Mar 22, 2015
Hi all,
Im not sure I completely agree with Woody on people who should tow, there are so many taking on this lifestyle it would be impossible to manage. However, I believe there should be some form of compulsory RV training or at least hold a MR licence.
We had our ESC go bungo and I had to control the sway in high wind on the Eyre Highway, with the brake over ride which got the van back on the straight and narrow.
Cheers
hotqld said
09:47 PM Mar 22, 2015
Maybe all this necessary with the European influence to lower ball weights to approx. 6% and lower which reduces their critical speed that then requires friction sway tow balls as standard and ATC as standard. Aussie manufacturers are following with 7-8% ball weights again lowering the critical speed of their product.
The correct engineering is a stable caravan at 100klm / hr with friction sway control ( ball weights up to 400kg Anderson hitch, Reece dual cams, friction sway bars and finally ball friction for under 100kg ball weights) to combat passing semis, wind gusts etc. With ESC being the final guard .....not a band aid to fix bad caravan design or ESC, if brakes wearing out is evident.
There is complaints from some European ESC makes they are over sensitive on European imports here and in Europe.
Muddy, your mate (or at least you mates mate) knows very little about how the system works. The system requires quite a fair side to side acceleration to activate. If your van is set up properly the system should not activate under normal condition. The brakes will only be activated in severe yawing conditions, this is something that most vanners do not experience.
Izabarack said
08:27 AM Mar 23, 2015
Muddy, there is an argument that following the advice from authoritative sources (Collyn Rivers, for example) leads to questions of whether a van stability system is really necessary. Van design that reduces any double pendulum effect, smaller and lighter vans, a tow vehicle that well exceeds the weight of the van, loading that keeps weight close to the axle, minimum rear tug axle to ball distances, long distances between ball and van axle line, and towing speeds below about 95 KPH, would render a set up that is unlikely to ever get into trouble. The main difference between ESC for cars and for caravans, is that they enhance the safety factor in cars and try to make up for inherent instability in caravans.
Iza
hotqld said
12:44 PM Mar 24, 2015
Iza
Collyn advocates European designed caravans that have friction tow balls and ESC as standard.
If Collyn is right,
Why would Bailey Ellis fit this stuff?
Caravan accidents in the UK / snaking is a big problem there.
Interesting conversation with a neighbour last night. He mentioned that there is a growing concern that Trailer stability systems are still requiring some refinement before they could be considered good technology. I hope to goodness that the RMT mob understand these concerns before they decide to act and make them a mandatory fitting. The issue is that they are not adjustable. Now before anyone tries to tell me that this is probably a good thing here is the reason why my neighbour felt it is in fact a bad thing. There is no sensitivity control allowing the user to preset when the ESC activates. The theory being that the ESC is operating for the slightest movement of the van to give a nice straight tow. All well and good but his buddy reported fuel consumption figures with ESC as 22lt/100km as opposed to 13 achieved with the system off. The trailer brakes are operating so much that it is dragging him back almost all the time. Also, there is some groundswell in the belief that vans with ESC are ripping through their braking system components much faster then those without it fitted.
So, Opinion time....do I think ESC is a good thing? Well it earns me a discount on my Insurance so that's good. If it steadies the van without using archaic bull bars when situations dictate that it requires to act then yes. But achieving a straight, safe and comfortable tow has, for many years, been down to the driver and if a costly system is going to increase fuel consumption and wreck brakes while loading up my tow car unnecessarily then, well, no, that's not good. In my case my tug has it's own trailer stability system which reduces vehicle power and applies the vehicle brakes subtly when any sway is detected on the trailer, so while my new van has ESC fitted, I would be favouring the car doing the brainwork and reducing the wear and tear of the system overall by turning ESC on the van off.
Very interested to hear others thought on this.
-- Edited by Muddy on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 05:23:57 PM
I bought a new Supreme 7 mnths ago and had the ALKO ESC fitted. I no longer have the van being sucked in to a truck passing me or overtaking me on a narrow road (most of Australia) - it stays rock steady, but I have compared my diesel use with others towing similar vans and tow vehicles and theres no difference in fuel consumption.
Ive just had the brakes checked as part of up-grading the ATM on my 'van and the Inspector didn't see any noticeable wear on the brakes.
Wouldn't be without my 'van ESC
Towing should be a seperate licence endorsement including how to back it up
End of rant
Im not sure I completely agree with Woody on people who should tow, there are so many taking on this lifestyle it would be impossible to manage. However, I believe there should be some form of compulsory RV training or at least hold a MR licence.
We had our ESC go bungo and I had to control the sway in high wind on the Eyre Highway, with the brake over ride which got the van back on the straight and narrow.
Cheers
Maybe all this necessary with the European influence to lower ball weights to approx. 6% and lower which reduces their critical speed that then requires friction sway tow balls as standard and ATC as standard.
Aussie manufacturers are following with 7-8% ball weights again lowering the critical speed of their product.
10-15% ball weight is the best from a stability point of view
see:
oppositelock.jalopnik.com/tow-me-down-1609112611
and
www.nav200.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2008-01-1228.pdf
The correct engineering is a stable caravan at 100klm / hr with friction sway control ( ball weights up to 400kg Anderson hitch, Reece dual cams, friction sway bars and finally ball friction for under 100kg ball weights) to combat passing semis, wind gusts etc.
With ESC being the final guard
.....not a band aid to fix bad caravan design or ESC, if brakes wearing out is evident.
There is complaints from some European ESC makes they are over sensitive on European imports here and in Europe.
Currently the TSC is the new generation of advance ESC on the market
see:
mrtruck.com/tuson-trailer-sway-control.htm
-- Edited by hotqld on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 09:48:32 PM
-- Edited by hotqld on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 09:51:30 PM
Gday...
This has some interest - http://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/content/advice/2015/battle-of-the-black-boxes-49945
Cheers - John
Iza
Collyn advocates European designed caravans that have friction tow balls and ESC as standard.
If Collyn is right,
Why would Bailey Ellis fit this stuff?
Caravan accidents in the UK / snaking is a big problem there.