Just come off the phone with an auto electrician who wants to fit this to my car in readiness for its first tow on Monday next week. I said that I didn't want the Redarc because I favoured a proportional brake controller and he told me this was a new redarc product with a very small remote control (as per the old one) and was proportional when switched to automatic mode. Now I LOVE the look of this one and the idea it will take up so little dash space, but would like to hear of any other users experiences with it before giving the go ahead. Its called the Redarc Tow-Pro (link here) http://www.redarc.com.au/products/product/tow-pro/
JackoFJR said
05:42 PM Mar 17, 2015
There a good thing
mr glassies said
07:53 PM Mar 17, 2015
I'm changing my 2 yr old one for one of these as i want the emergency button at my finger tips . i hate that they put the controller were you have to reach out for it when you need it in an emergency . i even argued with the sparky who put mine in on my then new colly he said it had to go under the dash but couldn't tell me why it had to . so I'm putting in one of these it will be in a position on the console were my hand sits in normal driving position .
dibs
Izabarack said
08:20 PM Mar 17, 2015
The Tow Pro model adds a motion sensing function to a older model proportional controller. The thing you want is quick and ready access to the emergency button. The Tow Pro and the older remote head proportional controller allows you to mount the controls high on the dash and adjacent to your hands on the steering wheel. Many towing tip sites suggest the first action when the bit on the end starts to sway is to brake the trailer only to straighten things out before hard braking in a straight line. The new Tow Pro seems to be getting a good reputation so I suspect you will be pretty happy with that model.
Iza
Muddy said
09:13 PM Mar 17, 2015
Thanks all. Also seen some really good feedback on the Caravanners forum. Seems that once you have set the power, its a leave alone system save for steep inclines etc. (I don't want to have to worry about adjusting it in an emergency, just be able to switch to manual if steep hills and gravity come into play). It looks a good compact unit and something we should expect from an innovative company like Redarc.
03_Troopy said
07:37 AM Mar 18, 2015
Iza, the new TowPro is the proportional controller, the old remote head controller wasn't proportional at all.
Muddy said
09:14 AM Mar 18, 2015
Just learned that earlier models of the Tow Pro were not compatible with ALKO ESC. (Pre 2014)? I looked up the latest model (EBRH-ACC) which thankfully is approved by Alko ESC.
Izabarack said
04:21 PM Mar 18, 2015
03_Troopy wrote:
Iza, the new TowPro is the proportional controller, the old remote head controller wasn't proportional at all.
Perfectly proportional, Troopy. I have one. The older one is not inertia sensing and a lot of people get confused about that.
Iza
Muddy said
04:25 PM Mar 18, 2015
Iza, can you explain please? Proprtional braking senses the inertia and applies the van brakes at or about the same level of the car. I, like Troopy, thought that this was not the case with the old remote control from Redarc. Inertia sensing is simply the technology used to assess the severity of the braking force (accelerometer) or so I thought.
Crashtac said
04:33 PM Mar 18, 2015
I have used the Redarc controllers on three different vehicles and have never had a problem even better when I did need some information the people at Redarc responded very quickly and were very helpful.
Cheers Andrew
Izabarack said
07:57 PM Mar 18, 2015
Muddy wrote:
Iza, can you explain please? Proprtional braking senses the inertia and applies the van brakes at or about the same level of the car. I, like Troopy, thought that this was not the case with the old remote control from Redarc. Inertia sensing is simply the technology used to assess the severity of the braking force (accelerometer) or so I thought.
Hi Muddy. Inertia sensing is both the trigger for trailer brake application and determines what level of braking force (proportion of maximum available voltage to the brake magnets) is applied. Kinda like you pushing harder or softer on the brake pedal in the car. In the older Redarc unit, the proportion of braking voltage applied is determined by the rotary control mounted on the dash, typically. A particular advantage of the Redarc arrangement that I wanted to use is that lightly pushing the brake pedal is sufficient to trigger trailer brakes only, at the preset level (proportion) of braking force.
Iza
TechnoGypsy said
11:45 PM Mar 18, 2015
I bit the bullet and got one of these fitted to my Patrol - They do the job well, more sensitive that others I've used in the past. And yes, they are "Set and Forget" unless you need to haul in quickly.
Money well spent, I think.
Izabarack said
06:36 AM Mar 19, 2015
TechnoGypsy wrote:
...., they are "Set and Forget"
I suggest you be a bit careful with the "Set and Forget" attitude. The attitude was identified as one contributing factor to a rash of trailer rollover crashes in Canada, a few years ago. Crash analysis found that some users had even mounted the controller in inaccessible places (behind dash panels, for example) and could not get to the controller in quick time.
Iza
Muddy said
07:27 AM Mar 19, 2015
Thanks Iza. It's reassuring to know that this is a fully proportional device.
03_Troopy said
07:34 AM Mar 19, 2015
Muddy wrote:
Iza, can you explain please? Proprtional braking senses the inertia and applies the van brakes at or about the same level of the car. I, like Troopy, thought that this was not the case with the old remote control from Redarc. Inertia sensing is simply the technology used to assess the severity of the braking force (accelerometer) or so I thought.
You're correct Muddy.. The old remote head brake controller (EBRH) is NOT proportional. The Tow-Pro (EBRH-ACC) is proportional and uses an accellerometer to guage the ammount of braking force required in Automatic mode.
Two types of braking
- Automatic mode (Inertia sensing) for highway conditions, trailer brakes are applied at a proportional level to the vehicle braking level
- User Controlled Mode for off road, the trailer brakes are applied to the level set by the user.
robo24 said
12:20 PM Mar 19, 2015
Had one fitted in Canberra earlier this month.GREAT much better than my old Voyager.Simple to use and can correct van sway just by pushing the button.
Muddy said
04:28 PM Mar 19, 2015
I'm with you Troopy, that is my understanding also. IZA, I understand that the older Redarc used to apply a user adjustable voltage to the brakes as you have indicated but did not sense, using the accelerometer, the severity or harshness of the car braking force and apply a suitable voltage based on this to the caravan.
Ordered. Great feedback everyone thanks a bunch! I last towed in the UK over 20 years ago with a 24ft caravan (external), no electric brakes or controllers (just the tow hitch which waited until I braked and then rammed the anchors on), no ALKO ESC, no weight distribution hitches and my vehicle then did not have a trailer stability assist program which I now have. WHAT TRAILER SWAY!!!! The only problem is that due to the dealer not booking the auto electrician early enough, I now won't be leaving the dealership until PM rush hour in Sydney and will spend the latter part of my journey home in the dark. Not ideal....where does all the bravado and confidence of a 30 year old go when he gets to 53????? I'm hoping all this bloody technology is going to drive the van home for me while I take my nap!
PeterD said
11:05 PM Mar 19, 2015
Muddy wrote:
Iza, can you explain please? Proprtional braking senses the inertia and applies the van brakes at or about the same level of the car. I,
Firstly both the proportional and timer are triggered the same. There is a trigger wire that connects to the brake light circuit. When you touch the brake pedal and apply enough pressure to light the stop lights both types of controller wake up and commence to operate. From there they go in different direction..
1. Timer or synchroniser controllers - When you operate the brakes the controller commences to send power to the brakes. The current commences at a low level and builds up over a period of time until it reaches the maximum set by the variable control on the unit. The current builds up over a period of time that is set by the manufacturer. Whilst you hold the brake pedal down the controller will supply the brakes with a fixed level of power, it does not vary with the pressure on the brake pedal, it only varies with the pre-set control on the controller.
2. Proportional controllers - When you operate the brakes the controller it commences to send a minimum set level of power to the brakes. There is a device in the controllers that detect the amount of deceleration that results from the brake application. The older types had a pendulum that swung forward as the result the vehicle deceleration. This pendulum is connected to a variable control that controls the amount of power that is sent to the vans brakes. Thehe harder you apply the tugs brakes the further forward and thus the higher amount of power is sent to the vans brakes. When you ease the pressure on the brake pedal the pendulum will return to a position closer to its normal and reduce the power to the van. The action of the pendulm will thus control the amount of braking of the van roughly in proportion to the amonnt of braking you apply to the tug. (If you have a malfunction that causes the rig to reduce speed suddenly, perhaps a wheel falling off, the pendulum will swing forward but it will not send power to the brakes. It can only send more power to the brakes if you first plant your plate of meat on the brake pedal.) The modern controllers use electronic devices to detect the deceleration.
Had one fitted in Canberra earlier this month.GREAT much better than my old Voyager.Simple to use and can correct van sway just by pushing the button.
The voyager had a control to apply the van brakes by hand. Why did not you use that to control sway? Did you not know it was there?
There is nothing magical or unique about the Redarc button. All controllers are required to have a device where you can activate the brakes manually and the controllers MUST be mounted where you can easily use it.
Izabarack said
07:00 AM Mar 20, 2015
Muddy wrote:
I understand that the older Redarc used to apply a user adjustable voltage to the brakes as you have indicated but did not sense, using the accelerometer, the severity or harshness of the car braking force and apply a suitable voltage based on this to the caravan.
Yes, Muddy, the remote head Redarc applies a set proportion of the maximum available voltage to brake magnets when triggered. The magnitude, proportion, of the voltage is set by a rotary control on the dash mounted remote head in the remote head Redarc unit. The main argument about what to use for the trigger is that the Redarc unit can be used to apply trailer brakes first, rather than waiting for some deceleration in speed of the combination. In an emergency stop, any mismatch between braking performance on the trailer can lead to the situation where the trailer is pushing the towing vehicle and causing a jackknife. Exactly matching braking performance of both vehicles in the combination is difficult as road conditions vary, weight varies, and a lot of other variables are in the mix. One specific criticism of inertia sensing devices was the initial setting instructions. Most setting instructions, at the time of the report by the Canadians, had the operator set things up at 25 MPH. At highway speeds, this setting was inadequate leading to jackknife and rollover.
Iza
Izabarack said
07:07 AM Mar 20, 2015
PeterD wrote:
Muddy wrote:
Iza, can you explain please? Proprtional braking senses the inertia and applies the van brakes at or about the same level of the car. I,
1. Timer or synchroniser controllers - When you operate the brakes the controller commences to send power to the brakes. The current commences at a low level and builds up over a period of time until it reaches the maximum set by the variable control on the unit. The current builds up over a period of time that is set by the manufacturer. Whilst you hold the brake pedal down the controller will supply the brakes with a fixed level of power, it does not vary with the pressure on the brake pedal, it only varies with the pre-set control on the controller.
Peter, your post of an American advertising campaign material from lots of years ago has no relevance to the remote head Redarc unit. The remote head Redarc unit instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered.
Iza
PeterD said
04:16 PM Mar 20, 2015
Izabarack wrote:
PeterD wrote: Peter, your post of an American advertising campaign material from lots of years ago has no relevance to the remote head Redarc unit. The remote head Redarc unit instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered.
Iza, do you really know much about brake controllers or are you handing out malicious or uninformed information? The graphic I posted certainly was not part of an advertising campaign. It came from a copy of the Tekonsha catalogue when they were producing both types of controller. It was there to explain the difference between the two types of controller.
Remote head controller? you can not make yourself clear which controller you are talking about. Redarc manufactures two types of remote head This thread is about the new Redarc controller, the Tow-Pro Electric Trailer Brake Controller. It is capable of operating in both modes. Muddy was asking how proportional controllers worked so I answered him.
Quote "instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered." Really, so the brakes come on with a bang? That would not be a great way for them to operate. Every time you applied the brakes the trailer would snatch away at the back of the van. You can make proportional controllers apply the braking power instantly like you claim the EBRH controller does (I take it you are referring to it.) You just whip the manual control around to maximum and maximum set power is instantly applied. When that happens you can feel the van snatch the tug with a power that upsets the passengers. You have the same power immediately as you have after the decelarometer has applied maximum set power. I doubt that anyone would produce a controller as savage as that. I suspect that Redarc produce a controller that ramps up its power in a manner to other non proportional controllers.
Your claim "instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered" gives me more reason not to fit one of those old technology types. I would not like a trailer snatching away at the back of my van. If they really act as you say but don't come on with a bang then they would not be producing enough braking power for road use.
Not any more, Peter. The thread has changed to a confused discussion about the trigger for brake application and the profile of voltage applied to the brake magnets. Information about a type of Tekonsha brand controller from some time ago is not applicable to the Redarc EBRH controller, so it is a bit silly and misleading to post such information.
It is probably better to discuss different triggering methods as manual and automatic as that is the only real difference between the range of currently offered brake controllers. As you say, the TowPro is capable of operation in both modes. In the older Redarc unit, the proportion of braking effort is set manually, while in the newer TowPro there is a choice between manual or automatic, sensing deceleration rates being the automatic mode in the TowPro. In both modes, braking effort is controlled by the application of voltage to the brake magnets. The level of voltage applied, as a proportion of available maximum voltage, is determined differently. The Sawtooth in the manual mode is operator controlled, in the automatic mode, the Sawtooth is determined by rate of deceleration. The sawtooth starts at zero and ends somewhere about 12 volts, typically, in both modes.
Horses for courses, around town and low speed, or on dirt as recommended by the Towpro instructions, setting a lower proportion of braking effort results in quite a gentle retardation in speed of the combination. No need to have the "feel the van snatch the tug with a power that upsets the passengers" if you are a competent driver. At higher, and highway speeds, setting a higher level or proportion of brake voltage, ensures that the trailer does not end up pushing the towing vehicle into a jackknife. Of course, there is an assumption in that statement that the tyres on the trailer maintain adhesion to the road surface and do not skid. In manual mode setting, a high set proportion will generate a pretty savage braking effort by the trailed vehicle. Not a problem if the proportion control is set at an appropriate level. On the highway, and in anticipation of needing greater braking effort to compensate for higher speeds, setting a higher proportion of braking effort seems pretty sensible. Setting a higher level of braking effort at highway speeds was one recommendation from a Canadian crash analysis following a spate of trailer rollovers in that country.
In the end, manual or automatic is really personal preference. Immediate access to full braking effort from the controller is the function that has most effect on safety on the road.
Iza
PeterD said
09:47 PM Mar 20, 2015
Just digging yourself further in aren't you Iza.
Footprints said
01:46 PM Mar 21, 2015
I have one fitted to Ford Falcon RTV. great product and best controller I have ever used.
Muddy said
08:46 PM Mar 22, 2015
I think that there is some difference in the way the word proportional is being used. Yes, voltage is applied to the brakes as a proportion of the maximum voltage available. I understand the term to describe a system where the voltage is decided upon by the accelerometer unit and is dependant on the vehicles braking force so that the caravan is braked "in proportion" to the towing vehicle. Ie as one unit. This being said the older Redatc unit was not of the latter category and was a user set device as opposed to what is described as proportional.
Just come off the phone with an auto electrician who wants to fit this to my car in readiness for its first tow on Monday next week. I said that I didn't want the Redarc because I favoured a proportional brake controller and he told me this was a new redarc product with a very small remote control (as per the old one) and was proportional when switched to automatic mode. Now I LOVE the look of this one and the idea it will take up so little dash space, but would like to hear of any other users experiences with it before giving the go ahead. Its called the Redarc Tow-Pro (link here) http://www.redarc.com.au/products/product/tow-pro/
dibs
Iza
Perfectly proportional, Troopy. I have one. The older one is not inertia sensing and a lot of people get confused about that.
Iza
Cheers Andrew
Hi Muddy. Inertia sensing is both the trigger for trailer brake application and determines what level of braking force (proportion of maximum available voltage to the brake magnets) is applied. Kinda like you pushing harder or softer on the brake pedal in the car. In the older Redarc unit, the proportion of braking voltage applied is determined by the rotary control mounted on the dash, typically. A particular advantage of the Redarc arrangement that I wanted to use is that lightly pushing the brake pedal is sufficient to trigger trailer brakes only, at the preset level (proportion) of braking force.
Iza
Money well spent, I think.
I suggest you be a bit careful with the "Set and Forget" attitude. The attitude was identified as one contributing factor to a rash of trailer rollover crashes in Canada, a few years ago. Crash analysis found that some users had even mounted the controller in inaccessible places (behind dash panels, for example) and could not get to the controller in quick time.
Iza
You're correct Muddy.. The old remote head brake controller (EBRH) is NOT proportional. The Tow-Pro (EBRH-ACC) is proportional and uses an accellerometer to guage the ammount of braking force required in Automatic mode.
Two types of braking
- Automatic mode (Inertia sensing) for highway conditions, trailer brakes are applied at a proportional level to the vehicle braking level
- User Controlled Mode for off road, the trailer brakes are applied to the level set by the user.
Had one fitted in Canberra earlier this month.GREAT much better than my old Voyager.Simple to use and can correct van sway just by pushing the button.
Ordered. Great feedback everyone thanks a bunch! I last towed in the UK over 20 years ago with a 24ft caravan (external), no electric brakes or controllers (just the tow hitch which waited until I braked and then rammed the anchors on), no ALKO ESC, no weight distribution hitches and my vehicle then did not have a trailer stability assist program which I now have. WHAT TRAILER SWAY!!!! The only problem is that due to the dealer not booking the auto electrician early enough, I now won't be leaving the dealership until PM rush hour in Sydney and will spend the latter part of my journey home in the dark. Not ideal....where does all the bravado and confidence of a 30 year old go when he gets to 53????? I'm hoping all this bloody technology is going to drive the van home for me while I take my nap!
Firstly both the proportional and timer are triggered the same. There is a trigger wire that connects to the brake light circuit. When you touch the brake pedal and apply enough pressure to light the stop lights both types of controller wake up and commence to operate. From there they go in different direction..
1. Timer or synchroniser controllers - When you operate the brakes the controller commences to send power to the brakes. The current commences at a low level and builds up over a period of time until it reaches the maximum set by the variable control on the unit. The current builds up over a period of time that is set by the manufacturer. Whilst you hold the brake pedal down the controller will supply the brakes with a fixed level of power, it does not vary with the pressure on the brake pedal, it only varies with the pre-set control on the controller.
2. Proportional controllers - When you operate the brakes the controller it commences to send a minimum set level of power to the brakes. There is a device in the controllers that detect the amount of deceleration that results from the brake application. The older types had a pendulum that swung forward as the result the vehicle deceleration. This pendulum is connected to a variable control that controls the amount of power that is sent to the vans brakes. Thehe harder you apply the tugs brakes the further forward and thus the higher amount of power is sent to the vans brakes. When you ease the pressure on the brake pedal the pendulum will return to a position closer to its normal and reduce the power to the van. The action of the pendulm will thus control the amount of braking of the van roughly in proportion to the amonnt of braking you apply to the tug. (If you have a malfunction that causes the rig to reduce speed suddenly, perhaps a wheel falling off, the pendulum will swing forward but it will not send power to the brakes. It can only send more power to the brakes if you first plant your plate of meat on the brake pedal.) The modern controllers use electronic devices to detect the deceleration.
The following diagram shows the difference.
The voyager had a control to apply the van brakes by hand. Why did not you use that to control sway? Did you not know it was there?
There is nothing magical or unique about the Redarc button. All controllers are required to have a device where you can activate the brakes manually and the controllers MUST be mounted where you can easily use it.
Yes, Muddy, the remote head Redarc applies a set proportion of the maximum available voltage to brake magnets when triggered. The magnitude, proportion, of the voltage is set by a rotary control on the dash mounted remote head in the remote head Redarc unit. The main argument about what to use for the trigger is that the Redarc unit can be used to apply trailer brakes first, rather than waiting for some deceleration in speed of the combination. In an emergency stop, any mismatch between braking performance on the trailer can lead to the situation where the trailer is pushing the towing vehicle and causing a jackknife. Exactly matching braking performance of both vehicles in the combination is difficult as road conditions vary, weight varies, and a lot of other variables are in the mix. One specific criticism of inertia sensing devices was the initial setting instructions. Most setting instructions, at the time of the report by the Canadians, had the operator set things up at 25 MPH. At highway speeds, this setting was inadequate leading to jackknife and rollover.
Iza
Peter, your post of an American advertising campaign material from lots of years ago has no relevance to the remote head Redarc unit. The remote head Redarc unit instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered.
Iza
Iza, do you really know much about brake controllers or are you handing out malicious or uninformed information? The graphic I posted certainly was not part of an advertising campaign. It came from a copy of the Tekonsha catalogue when they were producing both types of controller. It was there to explain the difference between the two types of controller.
Remote head controller? you can not make yourself clear which controller you are talking about. Redarc manufactures two types of remote head This thread is about the new Redarc controller, the Tow-Pro Electric Trailer Brake Controller. It is capable of operating in both modes. Muddy was asking how proportional controllers worked so I answered him.
Quote "instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered." Really, so the brakes come on with a bang? That would not be a great way for them to operate. Every time you applied the brakes the trailer would snatch away at the back of the van. You can make proportional controllers apply the braking power instantly like you claim the EBRH controller does (I take it you are referring to it.) You just whip the manual control around to maximum and maximum set power is instantly applied. When that happens you can feel the van snatch the tug with a power that upsets the passengers. You have the same power immediately as you have after the decelarometer has applied maximum set power. I doubt that anyone would produce a controller as savage as that. I suspect that Redarc produce a controller that ramps up its power in a manner to other non proportional controllers.
Your claim "instantly applies the set proportion of braking effort as soon as the unit is triggered" gives me more reason not to fit one of those old technology types. I would not like a trailer snatching away at the back of my van. If they really act as you say but don't come on with a bang then they would not be producing enough braking power for road use.
Not any more, Peter. The thread has changed to a confused discussion about the trigger for brake application and the profile of voltage applied to the brake magnets. Information about a type of Tekonsha brand controller from some time ago is not applicable to the Redarc EBRH controller, so it is a bit silly and misleading to post such information.
It is probably better to discuss different triggering methods as manual and automatic as that is the only real difference between the range of currently offered brake controllers. As you say, the TowPro is capable of operation in both modes. In the older Redarc unit, the proportion of braking effort is set manually, while in the newer TowPro there is a choice between manual or automatic, sensing deceleration rates being the automatic mode in the TowPro. In both modes, braking effort is controlled by the application of voltage to the brake magnets. The level of voltage applied, as a proportion of available maximum voltage, is determined differently. The Sawtooth in the manual mode is operator controlled, in the automatic mode, the Sawtooth is determined by rate of deceleration. The sawtooth starts at zero and ends somewhere about 12 volts, typically, in both modes.
Horses for courses, around town and low speed, or on dirt as recommended by the Towpro instructions, setting a lower proportion of braking effort results in quite a gentle retardation in speed of the combination. No need to have the "feel the van snatch the tug with a power that upsets the passengers" if you are a competent driver. At higher, and highway speeds, setting a higher level or proportion of brake voltage, ensures that the trailer does not end up pushing the towing vehicle into a jackknife. Of course, there is an assumption in that statement that the tyres on the trailer maintain adhesion to the road surface and do not skid. In manual mode setting, a high set proportion will generate a pretty savage braking effort by the trailed vehicle. Not a problem if the proportion control is set at an appropriate level. On the highway, and in anticipation of needing greater braking effort to compensate for higher speeds, setting a higher proportion of braking effort seems pretty sensible. Setting a higher level of braking effort at highway speeds was one recommendation from a Canadian crash analysis following a spate of trailer rollovers in that country.
In the end, manual or automatic is really personal preference. Immediate access to full braking effort from the controller is the function that has most effect on safety on the road.
Iza
I have one fitted to Ford Falcon RTV. great product and best controller I have ever used.