It was reported on the T.V. news in Perth tonight,
That there is an arson attackhappening, every 4 hours. somewhere in W.A.
What would you do with these people if caught ???
K.J.
rockylizard said
10:19 PM Jan 14, 2015
Gday...
There are many who display anti-social tendencies toward the general population - assault, theft, dangerous driving ... all of which should be punished. However, arson is one crime against society that has greater ramifications. It needs to be treated very seriously and those who engage in arson should feel, as they say, "the full weight of the law".
As part of our discussion, I offer the following -
What are the main characteristics of the people who usually light these fires?
It varies greatly. It may be someone who is anti-social. One day they might light a fire, the next day they might steal a car. There are also people with a grievance seeking revenge. Sometimes its the need for recognition, such as people with low self-esteem or who are overlooked wanting attention. There are a whole range of reasons. About 90 per cent are male, about 40 per cent are adolescents and 14 per cent children.
What is the definition of an arsonist and is there an age at which you can be classified as an arsonist given so many are quite young?
In a legal sense, its an intention to cause a severe outcome by lighting a fire for destructive purposes.
However, when youre talking about young people, it may be just an interest in fire. Normally we dont use it for young people as the reasons for their behaviour are complex and usually dont have an intention to cause massive destruction. But I do categorise some reckless behaviour as arson, for example, when people ignore legislation about using machinery on a very hot day and continue to do so. Theres a whole range of motivations behind why people light fires and often there is an element of intellectual disability involved and people aren't necessarily aware of the consequences.
Is the best approach to addressing this huge issue to start with education at a school level?
While there are some educational programs run by fire fighters around NSW for youth and children, it still doesn't offer the more intensive services for kids actually displaying a range of problematic behaviour.
As a society we need to be far more aware of the propensity for these bushfires now and the type of measures which can be taken to prevent them.
They may receive a jail sentence or community order but theres nothing being done to change their behaviour. Its only just now that were beginning to very slowly implement services to treat offenders.
Cheers - John
KFT said
10:20 PM Jan 14, 2015
Hang em high judge
kiwijims said
10:44 PM Jan 14, 2015
Thanks for the reply JOHN,
This problem with kids lighting fires just to watch it burn is nothing new,
many years ago I had a young Nephew who was lighting small fires all around their home, un-be known to her Parents,
until one night the Mother smelt smoke in the house, going to the daughters room she found a small fire burning on the floor,
when asked why she lit the fire, the daughter could not explain it ,She only said that she was fascinated by the flames.
Maybe there is something hypnotic about fires to some people.
K.J.
hako said
11:09 PM Jan 14, 2015
. When I first read this post I thought that a case of arson every 4hrs inW.A. was exaggerating it a bit, but then I did a search and found a report on bushfire arson from 2004. The figures really surprised me. Below is an extract:
The number of recorded criminal incidents for arson in NSW in 2001 was 7,310, compared with 6,157 in 2000 and 4,692 in 1998 (Drabsch 2003: 9). This increase was not just an isolated effect over these years, and the rate of arson has doubled every eight years since 1964 (Drabsch 2003: 9). Statistical reports by the NSW Fire Brigades (NSWFB 1994, 2003) show that between
WollyandPete said
11:28 PM Jan 14, 2015
As a Firefighter who has dealt with many a fire in our patch over the last 10 years that have been deliberatly lit by an arsonist, I don't know what I would do if I caught him. I say him because I have created a profile of our arsonist in our area and when he is caught it will not surprise me who he is, but will be a shock to others.
I beelive our arsonist has a deep psychological problem brought about by the loss of a loved one in an accident, is a firefighter, knows how to light fires in many different ways, has a knowledge of fire investigation, lights the fires close to where the loss of a loved one occurred. He mainly does it due to his grief that he has not dealt with, and lighting fires helps him deal with his loss.
The problem I have is catching him or proving who it is, and as I said, this is my profile on him.
Pete
Big Gorilla said
06:43 AM Jan 15, 2015
When you consider the risks our brave fire fighters go to, the risk to human life and suffering, the heartbreak of losing a home, it is equivalent to murder when there is loss of life caused by arson. Some might do it for fun, for what other reasons I can't hazard a guess. I believe the penalty should be up to life imprisonment.
Bruce and Bev said
10:32 AM Jan 15, 2015
jail them all - kids into institutions and all need a shrink to assess if theyre just bad or need medical help - which sould be given.
Arson is just such a serious threat to the population and emergency workers, not to mention our bush, wild life and climate change with the smoke, that we cannot afford to be half hearted with these criminal or mentally disturbed people
kiwijims said
12:55 PM Jan 15, 2015
WollyandPete wrote:
As a Firefighter who has dealt with many a fire in our patch over the last 10 years that have been deliberatly lit by an arsonist, I don't know what I would do if I caught him. I say him because I have created a profile of our arsonist in our area and when he is caught it will not surprise me who he is, but will be a shock to others. I beelive our arsonist has a deep psychological problem brought about by the loss of a loved one in an accident, is a firefighter, knows how to light fires in many different ways, has a knowledge of fire investigation, lights the fires close to where the loss of a loved one occurred. He mainly does it due to his grief that he has not dealt with, and lighting fires helps him deal with his loss. The problem I have is catching him or proving who it is, and as I said, this is my profile on him. Pete
G'day WollyandPete,
Have you talked to the Authorities regarding this Person, I would be handing over everything to them and let them keep a watch on the person. I know it's the hardest thing in the world to actually catch the person in the act, but at least he will be put under surveillance,
I reckon a suitable punishment (as well as a long gaol term) would be to have to help farmers with the care or killing of burnt sheep and cattle, and wildlife. They should have to come up close and personal with the pain they've caused, not only the "fascinating flames".
kiwijims said
08:23 PM Jan 15, 2015
As a fire-fighter, I've seen some sights that would frighten any arsonist clean out of their pants,
On one occasion, we were fighting a Bush fire, the Head Fire was approaching us through the heavy fuel under tall trees,
the sound alone was enough to make anyone run for cover,
there was a clearing ( of about 100mt ) with a house sitting in the middle of it,
the Fire came roaring out of the trees and as it hit the clearing the flames formed a gigantic arc going right over the house, missing it completely, the fire then hit the grass on the other side of the house setting it alight and off it went like a rocket.
We were sitting on 20kph in the Fire Truck, Just keeping pace with the Head Fire, we didn't get ahead of the fire for a couple of km after that, that's one time I wished I had a camera on my helmet, no one would believe what we had seen, really frightening.
K.J.
Glenelg said
08:15 PM Jan 16, 2015
Put them in the fire, that's all they are worth, nothing but pests.
kiwijims said
08:36 PM Jan 16, 2015
Yes, Dave we would have done that on many different occasions. if we could have caught the little Bast#&@s.
The question of punishment was raised in the Brigade many times, I thought of one punishment which would teach them not to do it again,
My idea was to fit them with a back pack, fill it to the top with tree plants and take the terrors out into the bush with instructions not to return until they have replanted all the burnt ground, and when they do return, refill the pack and send them back again.
K.J.
aussietraveller said
02:45 PM Jan 17, 2015
Firebugs will always be there we need to figure out a better way to deal with them and I don't think jail is necessarily the best answer unless there has been loss of life. I have been a volunteer Fire fighter in the Blue Mountains NSW for the past 38 years and we have had our fair share of Fire bugs.
If you put a Fire bug in jail at the end of their sentence you still have a firebug who is probably a fair bit smarter and may well have other criminal tendencies. An alternate option may be a court order to spend 1000 hours working with a volunteer Fire Brigade under strict supervision.
we don't get to see most firebugs but 2 that we knew were local kids and they were strongly encouraged to become part of the local brigade Maybe we were just lucky as one of them is still a brigade member over 20 years after the offence and the other one stayed as a member for about 5 years till moved out of the area.
I don't profess to know the answer to this social problem but I don't think Jail is it I believe these people have a mental illness.
What about corporate offenders who through poor maintenance of neglect have caused a fire what should we do with them.
Don't forget that the majority of major Bush Fires are caused by lightening.
-- Edited by aussietraveller on Saturday 17th of January 2015 02:49:25 PM
kiwijims said
04:14 PM Jan 17, 2015
It looks like someone is also thinking about the Problem of Arsonists...........
It was reported on the T.V. news in Perth tonight,
That there is an arson attack happening, every 4 hours. somewhere in W.A.
What would you do with these people if caught ???
K.J.
Gday...
There are many who display anti-social tendencies toward the general population - assault, theft, dangerous driving ... all of which should be punished. However, arson is one crime against society that has greater ramifications. It needs to be treated very seriously and those who engage in arson should feel, as they say, "the full weight of the law".
As part of our discussion, I offer the following -
What are the main characteristics of the people who usually light these fires?
It varies greatly. It may be someone who is anti-social. One day they might light a fire, the next day they might steal a car. There are also people with a grievance seeking revenge. Sometimes its the need for recognition, such as people with low self-esteem or who are overlooked wanting attention. There are a whole range of reasons. About 90 per cent are male, about 40 per cent are adolescents and 14 per cent children.
What is the definition of an arsonist and is there an age at which you can be classified as an arsonist given so many are quite young?
In a legal sense, its an intention to cause a severe outcome by lighting a fire for destructive purposes.
However, when youre talking about young people, it may be just an interest in fire. Normally we dont use it for young people as the reasons for their behaviour are complex and usually dont have an intention to cause massive destruction. But I do categorise some reckless behaviour as arson, for example, when people ignore legislation about using machinery on a very hot day and continue to do so. Theres a whole range of motivations behind why people light fires and often there is an element of intellectual disability involved and people aren't necessarily aware of the consequences.
Is the best approach to addressing this huge issue to start with education at a school level?
While there are some educational programs run by fire fighters around NSW for youth and children, it still doesn't offer the more intensive services for kids actually displaying a range of problematic behaviour.
As a society we need to be far more aware of the propensity for these bushfires now and the type of measures which can be taken to prevent them.
They may receive a jail sentence or community order but theres nothing being done to change their behaviour. Its only just now that were beginning to very slowly implement services to treat offenders.
Cheers - John
Thanks for the reply JOHN,
This problem with kids lighting fires just to watch it burn is nothing new,
many years ago I had a young Nephew who was lighting small fires all around their home, un-be known to her Parents,
until one night the Mother smelt smoke in the house, going to the daughters room she found a small fire burning on the floor,
when asked why she lit the fire, the daughter could not explain it ,She only said that she was fascinated by the flames.
Maybe there is something hypnotic about fires to some people.
K.J.
. When I first read this post I thought that a case of arson every 4hrs inW.A. was exaggerating it a bit, but then I did a search and found a report on bushfire arson from 2004. The figures really surprised me. Below is an extract:
The number of recorded criminal incidents for arson in NSW in 2001 was 7,310, compared
with 6,157 in 2000 and 4,692 in 1998 (Drabsch 2003: 9). This increase was not just an
isolated effect over these years, and the rate of arson has doubled every eight years
since 1964 (Drabsch 2003: 9).
Statistical reports by the NSW Fire Brigades (NSWFB 1994, 2003) show that between
I beelive our arsonist has a deep psychological problem brought about by the loss of a loved one in an accident, is a firefighter, knows how to light fires in many different ways, has a knowledge of fire investigation, lights the fires close to where the loss of a loved one occurred. He mainly does it due to his grief that he has not dealt with, and lighting fires helps him deal with his loss.
The problem I have is catching him or proving who it is, and as I said, this is my profile on him.
Pete
When you consider the risks our brave fire fighters go to, the risk to human life and suffering, the heartbreak of losing a home, it is equivalent to murder when there is loss of life caused by arson. Some might do it for fun, for what other reasons I can't hazard a guess. I believe the penalty should be up to life imprisonment.
Arson is just such a serious threat to the population and emergency workers, not to mention our bush, wild life and climate change with the smoke, that we cannot afford to be half hearted with these criminal or mentally disturbed people
G'day WollyandPete,
Have you talked to the Authorities regarding this Person, I would be handing over everything to them and let them keep a watch on the person. I know it's the hardest thing in the world to actually catch the person in the act, but at least he will be put under surveillance,
K.J.
As a fire-fighter, I've seen some sights that would frighten any arsonist clean out of their pants,
On one occasion, we were fighting a Bush fire, the Head Fire was approaching us through the heavy fuel under tall trees,
the sound alone was enough to make anyone run for cover,
there was a clearing ( of about 100mt ) with a house sitting in the middle of it,
the Fire came roaring out of the trees and as it hit the clearing the flames formed a gigantic arc going right over the house, missing it completely, the fire then hit the grass on the other side of the house setting it alight and off it went like a rocket.
We were sitting on 20kph in the Fire Truck, Just keeping pace with the Head Fire, we didn't get ahead of the fire for a couple of km after that, that's one time I wished I had a camera on my helmet, no one would believe what we had seen, really frightening.
K.J.
Yes, Dave we would have done that on many different occasions. if we could have caught the little Bast#&@s.
The question of punishment was raised in the Brigade many times, I thought of one punishment which would teach them not to do it again,
My idea was to fit them with a back pack, fill it to the top with tree plants and take the terrors out into the bush with instructions not to return until they have replanted all the burnt ground, and when they do return, refill the pack and send them back again.
K.J.
Firebugs will always be there we need to figure out a better way to deal with them and I don't think jail is necessarily the best answer unless there has been loss of life. I have been a volunteer Fire fighter in the Blue Mountains NSW for the past 38 years and we have had our fair share of Fire bugs.
If you put a Fire bug in jail at the end of their sentence you still have a firebug who is probably a fair bit smarter and may well have other criminal tendencies. An alternate option may be a court order to spend 1000 hours working with a volunteer Fire Brigade under strict supervision.
we don't get to see most firebugs but 2 that we knew were local kids and they were strongly encouraged to become part of the local brigade Maybe we were just lucky as one of them is still a brigade member over 20 years after the offence and the other one stayed as a member for about 5 years till moved out of the area.
I don't profess to know the answer to this social problem but I don't think Jail is it I believe these people have a mental illness.
What about corporate offenders who through poor maintenance of neglect have caused a fire what should we do with them.
Don't forget that the majority of major Bush Fires are caused by lightening.
-- Edited by aussietraveller on Saturday 17th of January 2015 02:49:25 PM
It looks like someone is also thinking about the Problem of Arsonists...........
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-17/treatment-needed-for-juvenile-arsonists-amid-bushfires-experts/6009076?section=wa
K.J.