I've seen mention of poor wiring and various faults with 240v wiring in caravans on this forum but have now seen it for myself. Currently we are at day 4 stripping the cladding from our van as it has come adrift from the frame
It has been a bit of an eye opener as far as poor quality workmanship goes but the wiring is damm right dangerous. (see pics) this is the worst example but all power points are done in the same manner. We also know why the cladding came adrift, it seems the workers cant reach higher than 2 metres as there is no adhesive higher than this height.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Sunday 9th of November 2014 12:43:13 PM
As I have mentioned in previous posts, the caravan industry (as far as manufacturers are concerned) is agricultural. You'll find in many cases, the plumbing is done by a different plumber on each van and so is the 240V electrics. This why people buy Jaycos. At least they will be looked after post sale.
Larry
Peterpan said
05:34 PM Nov 9, 2014
I noticed the rub marks up high on the wires in picture 2.
I wonder how long it would take for them to wear through
and become even more dangerous.
Peterpan
oldtrack123 said
05:50 PM Nov 9, 2014
Hi
Double post
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 9th of November 2014 05:56:18 PM
oldtrack123 said
05:55 PM Nov 9, 2014
Hi
Yes
[1]protective outer sheave removed more than needed
[2]sharp screw point could easily puncture insulation & become live , That is a frequent problem
[3]cable subject to too much movement, rub marks which is rubbed right through could make comtact with outer metal wall [/liven things up nicely]
]4]Cable connection subject to movement
I wonder what the twin cable goes to?
How about where the cables go through the uprights?
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 9th of November 2014 05:58:02 PM
kiwijims said
07:53 PM Nov 9, 2014
Some years ago, while working in the caravan industry repairing caravans ,
I wanted to find an electrical fault on a Jayco, so I rang the local Tech working for Jayco,
I asked him if he could supply a electrical diagram for a particular model,
the answer was, "Nup" because they have outside contractors come in and do the job their own way,
So, no two vans are wired the same,
On another occasion, we had to remove the complete side off a large 25' van,
this caravan had stickers on it stating, Fully insulated,
The only insulation we could find was a piece of 50mm insulation stuck between the outer skin and the inside wall,
only good that did was to stop the walls from vibrating.
I would advise anyone thinking of buying a new van, and they want it fully insulated,
Go to the factory, ask to see your van being made, check that it is fully insulated, if they say "sorry can't do,"
take your money somewhere else for your new van.
K.J.
Stratman77 said
08:22 PM Nov 9, 2014
It's a long time since I jerked wires for a living, but I have seen much worse inside the walls of houses. Unfortunately, there is no nation wide implementation of a standard for electrical work, and no formal inspection by the electrical authorities as there was back in those days. The responsibility is totally on the 'qualified' person at the factory - probably a supervisor or manager - and the staff are supposed to be supervised and their work checked. My advice is please ensure all GPOs (power points) are double pole switched and the van is fitted with an earth leakage breaker (also called an RCD) and this will prevent the shell of the van ever becoming live. Either a fuse will blow or the RCD will throw out. It does surprise me that manufacturers are willing to take the liability risks associated with these shoddy and potentially fatal work practices, e.g., there are a dozen cheap ways if fixing a GPO to a van wall without using a long PK screw to puncture the active wire! If you are just a little OCD about electrical safety, you might consider buying a cheap 3 pin polarity tester so you can test a GPO for correct polarity each time you plug in. If one is OK, they should all be OK.
Fortunately - either by good luck or good management - serious electrical accidents in RVs are rare, so happy trails.....
Stratman77 said
08:33 PM Nov 9, 2014
Kiwijims comment about companies using different contractors to wire vans is not very comforting, but quite understandable. The contractor will then assume liability in case of an accident - but 'gee, which contractor wired your van? It may take us some time to find out'. Could be a very messy legal process.
Aus-Kiwi said
10:55 AM Nov 10, 2014
Keep in mind other than the screws going way too far into cavity.
They should be insulated or covered to prevent shock.
The single insulation is not as bad as it looks ..
It's in a cavity where single insulation ok in short distance.
The outer insulation is mainly .for mechanical protection, rubbing etc..
In some countries GPOs have inclosed boxes behind them..
Much like a connector box..
I would say 90% of domestic power points in houses are very similar..
They mainly check polarity and wire size these days..
oldtrack123 said
12:43 PM Nov 10, 2014
Stratman77 wrote:
Kiwijims comment about companies using different contractors to wire vans is not very comforting, but quite understandable. The contractor will then assume liability in case of an accident - but 'gee, which contractor wired your van? It may take us some time to find out'. Could be a very messy legal process.
HI ALL
You may be surprised to know that in ONE state[Vic] at least, untrained monkeys can do ALL the wiring & fitting OFF
When the VAN is FINISHED ,all that needs to be done is for a licensed Electrical contractor to test & sign OFF & issue a compliance Cert
Now as many would be aware VIC is were most Van builders are located
PeterQ
Stratman77 said
01:28 PM Nov 10, 2014
Hi, Peter!
Yeah - now that is a real scary situation, but Victoria (don't misunderstand me, I love the place) was always the least vigilant regarding wiring rules and regulations. It sounds like nothing has changed. And Aus-Kiwi, the box behind the GPO is one of the low cost ways of improving the risk of wires being punctured by sharp screws. I use them in my van for all the extra GPOs whether mains or inverter powered.
Aus-Kiwi said
01:41 PM Nov 10, 2014
The worry is they can be punctured any where in van! The should have there own dedicated conduits maybe ?
Seen some with foam incased wiring which would de rate wiring !!
Bit like the trucking industry .. Only becomes an issue when people die ,,
The world we live and people are so ignorant till sh!t happens !!
Stratman77 said
03:13 PM Nov 10, 2014
I guess it comes down to the cheapest option which applies the minimum acceptable risk! We could all replace our van wiring with Pyrotennax (copper tube with internal wires suspended in chalk) as used on ships, oil rigs and factories and other extreme situations! You are quite correct - nothing will happen until people start to die, and not just one or two. That would just be collateral damage!
Grandad5 said
10:53 AM Nov 11, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Seen some with foam incased wiring which would de rate wiring !!
Would you mind expanding on that please?
Are you referring to wiring buried inside polystyrene? And does de-rated mean the wiring spec is effectively less than would otherwise be the case?
Jim
Aus-Kiwi said
12:06 AM Nov 12, 2014
Yep wire in cavity or in area where it can't cool its derated
Under insulation or foam is bad news... ..
Why rolled up extension cords must be pulled out before use!
Stratman77 said
02:03 AM Nov 12, 2014
Absolutely! Even when cable is encased in conduit, the current parameters will be reduced due to increased heating of the conductors under load.
Grandad5 said
10:00 AM Nov 12, 2014
Thanks heaps Aus-Kiwi and Chris.
You've prevented me from making a mistake.
They say a pic is worth a thousand words so here's where I am right now.
I have a few ideas going through my head of how to secure the cables so they're still straight and neat but have an air gap around them.
BTW..The red cable is the solar feed. The others are a combination of 2.5mm 240V and 1.5 12V
When I calculated the size of the solar cable I assumed a core temp of 35C.
Cheers
Jim
KFT said
10:15 AM Nov 12, 2014
Which is why my caravan builder used 2.5mm/2 (7/.067) for all the van wiring.
even derated it still meets the 16amp capacity.
frank
Stratman77 said
08:26 PM Nov 12, 2014
Wow! Grandad5 You have a BIG job in front of you! You seem to have everything under control. There have always been debates about the suitability of 'normal' 240v TPS electrical cable (which is usually less than 19 strands) versus a true multi strand (up to 100 strands) in a mobile environment. The problem is that while a true multi strand is far more flexible and handles the rigours of vibration and movement far better, the GPOs fitted in vans are normal domestic types (albeit double pole) that are designed for the standard 240v TPS wire styles and use a single grub screw to secure the connection. I guess very few would argue that a soldered and properly crimped multi strand cable joint is as good as you can get, I doesn't appear that many van manufacturers offer this! Surprise, surprise!
Aus-Kiwi said
09:21 PM Nov 12, 2014
Wire should be saddled to prevent movement or vibration..
2.5 is the wire used in domestic homes..
More than 7 strands can make connections an issue..
Soldering joints is fround upon except earth bonding..
Stratman77 said
09:41 PM Nov 12, 2014
Well, it seems we have to agree to disagree. I would have to ask why more than 7 strands make connections an issue, and - maybe I'm a dinosaur and what I was taught at technical college is now unacceptable - for high current connections the more conductors, the better. For example, sub mains were commonly 19/.064 and earth conductors were always 7/.029 minimum. Grub screw connections are acceptable in a domestic stable environment, but even there it is common to find strands cut by the screw. The last time I looked at my battery cables, they appeared to be a lot more than 7 strands and not a grub screw in sight. Tinned wire and copper can react with each other, but a good soldered multi strand connection would be my choice every time.
Aus-Kiwi said
01:58 AM Nov 13, 2014
Sub mains are 16mm SDI .. Single domestic .
Solder won't take the heat the cable is rated at..
Which is why N /earth has two connectors or screws..
oldtrack123 said
12:52 PM Nov 13, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Sub mains are 16mm SDI .. Single domestic . Solder won't take the heat the cable is rated at.. Which is why N /earth has two connectors or screws..
Wow, those cables must run hot!!
Pyrotenex ,perhaps??
Melting point of Pb/Sn solder ranges from around 180C<205C depending on Pb <Sn ratio
60 Sn/ 40 Pb as usually used by electricians, MP 204C
Most PVC insulated cables are limited to around 75C
The reasons soldering is often frowned on are'
[a] It can flow under pressure ][screw, tunnel , boltedl]With the connection loosing it's tightness
It can lead to loss of flexibility adjacent to the soldered section, leading to fracture
That is not a problem IF the cable can be supported[ No movement adjacent to the soldered section]
[c] the skill required to make a good soldered joint
[e]the time factor
But poorly made compression connections can be worse then soldered[Improvised tools & lugs etc]
The correct size for the cable & the right tool is essential for a sound compression connection
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 13th of November 2014 01:01:52 PM
oldtrack123 said
01:09 PM Nov 13, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
[1]2.5 is the wire used in domestic homes.. [2]More than 7 strands can make connections an issue.. Soldering joints is fround upon except earth bonding..
[1]2.5 mm x is commonly used for domestic power circuits
1.5mmx Is ok for most domestic lighting circuits
[2]??? Please explain why?
Especially since 7 strand is the minimum for vans etc, for flexibility,takes movement better!
PeterQ
Stratman77 said
02:03 PM Nov 13, 2014
I guess this debate is somewhat redundant as in practical terms, as long as the cable used is approprate size and correctly terminated - grub screwed or crimped and or soldered (I admit that I am an old sparky and things change), but if I found any sub mains running hot enough to melt solder I would freak out! As long as what is done is done to best practice, there should be few problems.
Aus-Kiwi said
04:26 PM Nov 13, 2014
The solder for join comes down to short fault ..
Keep in mind I'm talking from mains to power board (sub) point of view..
Why there's two fasteners on N ..
They prefer the active to fuse apart..
Don't want no N in men system..
We use to bind 16mm cable on connection to main fuses and meters..
With sealing wire..
But since some fool disconnected a service UNDER LOAD and burnt himself something bad
This procedure of bonding cables stopped..
Care must be taken stripping the insulation as any nick in cable creates a weak point and possibly break..
Jointing compound along with bimetallic crimps gives secure join with heat shrink etc..
Stratman77 said
07:43 PM Nov 13, 2014
Things have certainly changed since I was wiring main and sub main boards around the State Government buildings in Brissie. All cables wire imperial sizes and normally in screwed conduit. There were no such things as heat shrink, jointing compounds and bimetallic crimps. You seem a bit younger than me and in NSW where the rules are (or certainly were) different. I left the trade after 10 years in 1972 and went into various jobs in electronics. So my recollections of being a sparky are a bit vague since I haven't done any wire jerking - except for my own and family's houses - for 40 years. But the 5 years I did at tech college learning about dash pot starters and rotary converters weren't a total waste. I also still remember wiring all the exterior flood lighting around the Treasury building (now the casino) in pyro with no safety gear at all. No such thing as WHS then! maybe I could rewire my van with pyro! Hey - there's an idea.....
Aus-Kiwi said
07:59 PM Nov 13, 2014
Tinned crimps would be bi metal.. Mainly used to connect Alu to copper..
They use piercing connectors now.. Don't even have to strip the wire..
All the way up to 400 amp..
We have heat shrink that cover 4 wires from ungerground to overhead from substation..
Cannot be connected under load though !! Burns the piercing spike off ..
Deff have to lamp out before connecting ..
Generally our work is done LIVE ..
The old connector boxes are blowing up and replacing with XLPE / resin coated heat shrink..
I've seen mention of poor wiring and various faults with 240v wiring in caravans on this forum but have now seen it for myself. Currently we are at day 4 stripping the cladding from our van as it has come adrift from the frame
It has been a bit of an eye opener as far as poor quality workmanship goes but the wiring is damm right dangerous. (see pics) this is the worst example but all power points are done in the same manner. We also know why the cladding came adrift, it seems the workers cant reach higher than 2 metres as there is no adhesive higher than this height.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Sunday 9th of November 2014 12:43:13 PM
Larry
I noticed the rub marks up high on the wires in picture 2.
I wonder how long it would take for them to wear through
and become even more dangerous.
Peterpan
Hi
Double post
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 9th of November 2014 05:56:18 PM
Hi
Yes
[1]protective outer sheave removed more than needed
[2]sharp screw point could easily puncture insulation & become live , That is a frequent problem
[3]cable subject to too much movement, rub marks which is rubbed right through could make comtact with outer metal wall [/liven things up nicely]
]4]Cable connection subject to movement
I wonder what the twin cable goes to?
How about where the cables go through the uprights?
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 9th of November 2014 05:58:02 PM
Some years ago, while working in the caravan industry repairing caravans ,
I wanted to find an electrical fault on a Jayco, so I rang the local Tech working for Jayco,
I asked him if he could supply a electrical diagram for a particular model,
the answer was, "Nup" because they have outside contractors come in and do the job their own way,
So, no two vans are wired the same,
On another occasion, we had to remove the complete side off a large 25' van,
this caravan had stickers on it stating, Fully insulated,
The only insulation we could find was a piece of 50mm insulation stuck between the outer skin and the inside wall,
only good that did was to stop the walls from vibrating.
I would advise anyone thinking of buying a new van, and they want it fully insulated,
Go to the factory, ask to see your van being made, check that it is fully insulated, if they say "sorry can't do,"
take your money somewhere else for your new van.
K.J.
It's a long time since I jerked wires for a living, but I have seen much worse inside the walls of houses. Unfortunately, there is no nation wide implementation of a standard for electrical work, and no formal inspection by the electrical authorities as there was back in those days. The responsibility is totally on the 'qualified' person at the factory - probably a supervisor or manager - and the staff are supposed to be supervised and their work checked. My advice is please ensure all GPOs (power points) are double pole switched and the van is fitted with an earth leakage breaker (also called an RCD) and this will prevent the shell of the van ever becoming live. Either a fuse will blow or the RCD will throw out. It does surprise me that manufacturers are willing to take the liability risks associated with these shoddy and potentially fatal work practices, e.g., there are a dozen cheap ways if fixing a GPO to a van wall without using a long PK screw to puncture the active wire! If you are just a little OCD about electrical safety, you might consider buying a cheap 3 pin polarity tester so you can test a GPO for correct polarity each time you plug in. If one is OK, they should all be OK.
Fortunately - either by good luck or good management - serious electrical accidents in RVs are rare, so happy trails.....
They should be insulated or covered to prevent shock.
The single insulation is not as bad as it looks ..
It's in a cavity where single insulation ok in short distance.
The outer insulation is mainly .for mechanical protection, rubbing etc..
In some countries GPOs have inclosed boxes behind them..
Much like a connector box..
I would say 90% of domestic power points in houses are very similar..
They mainly check polarity and wire size these days..
HI ALL
You may be surprised to know that in ONE state[Vic] at least, untrained monkeys can do ALL the wiring & fitting OFF
When the VAN is FINISHED ,all that needs to be done is for a licensed Electrical contractor to test & sign OFF & issue a compliance Cert
Now as many would be aware VIC is were most Van builders are located
PeterQ
Yeah - now that is a real scary situation, but Victoria (don't misunderstand me, I love the place) was always the least vigilant regarding wiring rules and regulations. It sounds like nothing has changed. And Aus-Kiwi, the box behind the GPO is one of the low cost ways of improving the risk of wires being punctured by sharp screws. I use them in my van for all the extra GPOs whether mains or inverter powered.
Seen some with foam incased wiring which would de rate wiring !!
Bit like the trucking industry .. Only becomes an issue when people die ,,
The world we live and people are so ignorant till sh!t happens !!
Would you mind expanding on that please?
Are you referring to wiring buried inside polystyrene? And does de-rated mean the wiring spec is effectively less than would otherwise be the case?
Jim
Under insulation or foam is bad news... ..
Why rolled up extension cords must be pulled out before use!
Thanks heaps Aus-Kiwi and Chris.
You've prevented me from making a mistake.
They say a pic is worth a thousand words so here's where I am right now.
I have a few ideas going through my head of how to secure the cables so they're still straight and neat but have an air gap around them.
BTW..The red cable is the solar feed. The others are a combination of 2.5mm 240V and 1.5 12V
When I calculated the size of the solar cable I assumed a core temp of 35C.
Cheers
Jim
even derated it still meets the 16amp capacity.
frank
2.5 is the wire used in domestic homes..
More than 7 strands can make connections an issue..
Soldering joints is fround upon except earth bonding..
Solder won't take the heat the cable is rated at..
Which is why N /earth has two connectors or screws..
Wow, those cables must run hot!!
Pyrotenex ,perhaps??
Melting point of Pb/Sn solder ranges from around 180C<205C depending on Pb <Sn ratio
60 Sn/ 40 Pb as usually used by electricians, MP 204C
Most PVC insulated cables are limited to around 75C
The reasons soldering is often frowned on are'
[a] It can flow under pressure ][screw, tunnel , boltedl]With the connection loosing it's tightness
It can lead to loss of flexibility adjacent to the soldered section, leading to fracture
That is not a problem IF the cable can be supported[ No movement adjacent to the soldered section]
[c] the skill required to make a good soldered joint
[e]the time factor
But poorly made compression connections can be worse then soldered[Improvised tools & lugs etc]
The correct size for the cable & the right tool is essential for a sound compression connection
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 13th of November 2014 01:01:52 PM
[1]2.5 mm x is commonly used for domestic power circuits
1.5mmx Is ok for most domestic lighting circuits
[2]??? Please explain why?
Especially since 7 strand is the minimum for vans etc, for flexibility,takes movement better!
PeterQ
Keep in mind I'm talking from mains to power board (sub) point of view..
Why there's two fasteners on N ..
They prefer the active to fuse apart..
Don't want no N in men system..
We use to bind 16mm cable on connection to main fuses and meters..
With sealing wire..
But since some fool disconnected a service UNDER LOAD and burnt himself something bad
This procedure of bonding cables stopped..
Care must be taken stripping the insulation as any nick in cable creates a weak point and possibly break..
Jointing compound along with bimetallic crimps gives secure join with heat shrink etc..
They use piercing connectors now.. Don't even have to strip the wire..
All the way up to 400 amp..
We have heat shrink that cover 4 wires from ungerground to overhead from substation..
Cannot be connected under load though !! Burns the piercing spike off ..
Deff have to lamp out before connecting ..
Generally our work is done LIVE ..
The old connector boxes are blowing up and replacing with XLPE / resin coated heat shrink..