Folks with experience with Lithium Iron Batteries in solar/RV'ing/off grid
Reed said
05:05 AM Sep 21, 2014
Have posted that we have had an excellent experience with LFP battery bank (9+ kW-hour) for 15 months. I have followed most of the fora in the US that are concerned with solar living with RV and home (on and off grid) but I have not found a thread in which folks share hands on experience with such battery banks.
It appears that a much higher percentage of Australians (and perhaps just a lot more Australians period) are using LFP for off-grid and RV'ing.
I know there is a lot of interest since there might be 50 posts on a thread and 3000 or more views ("lurkers" is the term used in US for folks just following a thread for information - and I am definitely one of them).
Have posted on our setup on another thread but will re-do here if there is interest.
So I am interested in folks experiences with LFP: design/fabrication/equipment (panels, controllers, inverters, battery banks etc). This might prove interesting
Reed and Elaine Cundiff (currently mootchdocking in younger son's backyard and helping with the grandsons - 2 years and the other 2 weeks old)
Dougwe said
08:33 AM Sep 21, 2014
Due to power being a very important need for us all that "Alternative" Camp, maybe you could contact the "Webmaster" Cindy and see if she could make the thread a "Sticky". That would put it at the top of the "Techies" Page at all times, for all to read.
POWER FOR THE PEOPLE
Reed said
09:10 AM Sep 21, 2014
Douglas
Thanks for the suggestion. The usual answer from Moderators on the fora here is "to expensive and we do not care.
Reed
Reed said
09:17 AM Sep 21, 2014
Doug
How do I contact "webmaster" Cindy. Cannot find a spot to do such.
Reed
Dougwe said
10:07 AM Sep 21, 2014
Click on anywhere you see "webmaster" and PM her. I have PM'd you Reese.
Dougwe said
10:09 AM Sep 21, 2014
Reed wrote:
Douglas Thanks for the suggestion. The usual answer from Moderators on the fora here is "to expensive and we do not care. Reed
Douglas?? Am I in trouble Reese
beiffe said
10:51 PM Sep 21, 2014
Threads on Lithium batteries only cause hassles and besides there is a lot of rubbish being pushed by people who have no experience but have read all about lithiums on Google but cant differentiate between LiFePo4 and LiPO.
My suggestion is leave it alone on any forum in Australia as there is a group who love pushing their barrow but have now experience and amply display it to any who have experience in using the lIfePo4 batteries.
Beside most people who now use them prefer not to discuss it on forums so you will get very little advise form actual users.
There are some who have gone alone and bought their batteries and have set them up from scratch out side our group but from the info they have been pasting their batteries will die an early death, and this will only tarnish the name of the batteries.
Regards
Brian
Reed said
11:59 PM Sep 21, 2014
We have successfully used 9+ kW-hr LFP for 15 months of solar autonomy to include running a/c (1.5 kW system) for 3.5 hours several times and running said for an hour in the evening numerous times. We have been stuck in a snow storm with 20 cm of snow on panels for 4 days running the forced air heater with temperature around -5C. We have not used generator in that time frame and have had Moose fight within 25 m of rig.
There are a few others in US that have been similarly successful. Liberty Coaches now exclusively uses LFP on their $1.8M US and above coaches. There is also a very large segment that produce electric cars, motorcycles and boats outside of the Tesla and other commercial electric vehicles. The major fabricators of LFP in the US cater to the EV crowd.
There are a number of do it your selfers (DYI) who have had success.
The reason there are hassles is the party the ignorance h\you note of folks who confuse LiFePo4 with LiPO and similar highly volatile cells. The second primary hassle is folks who Folks who hammer together systems with faulty cells and without knowledge of electronic and will doubtless have serious problems
I am not interested in diatribes against the system but only gaining information from folks such as ourselves who have had experience with LFP and not from naysayers without knowledge. We have the same problem in US fora: too expensive, not proven, will explode. There are a lot of folks who have probably kept their shares in buggy whip manufacturers (or, keep your confederate money boys, the south will rise again! right!). It always helps a thread if posters answer the question(s) posited by the OP (original poster) and not go off on their own tangents Anything else is a thread killer.
Reed
-- Edited by Reed on Monday 22nd of September 2014 12:29:13 AM
SnowT said
11:52 AM Sep 22, 2014
Have to agree with Brian here Reed..
there is a group of People here that are right into Lithium's and the flack that has been thrown around has burned aLOT of people..
So what ever information is also kept close to hand.. The Hassles are not worth the trouble..
I do jokingly say to people lets get into LiFePO4y.. When the people are ready to Listen they will come a calling...
so We that have the system just sit back and let them do what they want..
Juergen
Grandad5 said
11:21 AM Sep 23, 2014
SnowT wrote:
there is a group of People here that are right into Lithium's and the flack that has been thrown around has burned aLOT of people..
So what ever information is also kept close to hand.. The Hassles are not worth the trouble..
Juergen, are you specifically referring to this the GN forum?
I'm very very interested in this topic as I have committed myself to using lithium in my van build. So far I think I have a very basic understanding only.
When I saw the topic title of this thread my very first thought was "Beauty!!! If there is going to be an intelligent conversation about this topic without the naysayers jumping all over those trying to educate, surely this particular forum would be where it will happen"
Am I being naïve in thinking this?
Jim
Reed said
12:15 PM Sep 23, 2014
Grandad5
There are not that many in US in solar community to include the RV'ers (caravaners) that have gone to LFP as yet but there are a lot of lurkers (those interested in subject 0- 3000 to 4000 "visitors" on some threads).
Several folks with LFP have blogs: "Technomadia", "Gone with the Wynns", Ron Jones etc. There are trivial discussions on Arizona Wind and Sun and Solar Panel Talk. Both of these have the pontifiating "..naysayers jumping all over those trying to educate..." It turns out that some of these folks are involved with solar companies that push their lead acid systems. Nothing wrong with lead acid. We were happy for seven years with a great bank of AGM. We are happier with the weight/cube etc of LFP.
The real heavy lifting has been done at Cruiser Forum Talk
Got to "Forums' and then to "Elwctrical: Batts/Gen/Solar.
Have a 15 months with lithium iron phosphate battery bank (9+ kW-hrs of LFP) and I felt like a Stone Age tribesman seeing a road and cars for the first time when I got to this forum for the first time yesterday. The boat people are 5 years ahead of the solar folks, both caravaners and home. As I have noted on some forum or another, the only naysaying has to do with economy of scale. If someone is a full-time cruiser (sails/motors one or lake and seldom sets into a marina), then LFP makes sense. It is uneconomical for someone who stays hooked in at the marina. The same is true for caravaners (full-time RV'ers). If you hook into line power at RV parks, then LFP makes no economic sens. If you are a full-time or main-time free camps (aka boondocker), it does.
Admittedly:
1. Boat people have money - the saying "a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money" has been around at least since Commodore Lipton 2. They are not primarily interested in solar (or so I think) but more into the very similar wind energy.
If you wish, I can give you the specifics of our system:equipment, voltage settings that seem to be canonical etc. But then, after just starting to read the extensive LFP work on Cruiser Forum, I feel like a rank beginner.
Reed Cundiff
-- Edited by Reed on Tuesday 23rd of September 2014 12:16:03 PM
beiffe said
06:29 PM Sep 23, 2014
Reed sorry to say but I have been lithium powered for over 4 years and we have been harassed by naysayers right from the start.
At the start we tried to enlist the help of the so called experts on the two main RV forums in Australia but very quickly they turned on us because we insisted on talking in layman terms that the normal RV user understands. eg Amps and Volts.
We all have meters that record Ah in and Ah out and if the in is more than the out we are happy. Very few RV owners know what watts are and fewer have any meters that record it so why talk in a measurement that nobody reading would understand except for those few experts.
When we started to report on what we had and what we could do we were called liars etc as it did not conform to normal battery and that many still have the tent mentality concerning power usage even though they spend many thousands on their rigs.
These same people still follow us and come up with the same BS but they still have not bought any batteries but profess to know batteries so they know it all.
As you and anyone else that has embarked on the use of LiFePo4's know they are entirely different to the old style batteries.
The pity is that there are now people trying to use the batteries and are posting on forums that are obviously setting their batteries up to fail as if not done properly they can be destroyed the same as any battery. Due to the flack and also some of our detractors now desperately want the information we now longer are able to help these people and it will be sad if their batteries die a premature death as it will degrade the batteries reputation as when setup properly they would have survived the estimated 10 - 15 years or more.
We have a closed forum dedicated to the use and installation of Lithium batteries in RV's and stand alone systems (sorry it is a closed forum and has had its membership stopped as we have enough now to continue with our testing) and the first thing they all say after joining and reading the information available was how ignorant the so called experts were.
We now watch discussions on Lithiums on most forums as light entertainment as it gives us a laugh when the same people continue to show anyone that has joined our forum that the so called experts indeed know nothing when they talk about Lithiums.
Granddad I am sorry to say the naysayers are here as well as earlier I did offer some info on the batteries but was soon found and the nit picking etc started so I will not post any info on any forum about what I do and how it is done.
Regards
Brian
Grandad5 said
08:31 PM Sep 23, 2014
beiffe wrote:
Granddad I am sorry to say the naysayers are here as well as earlier I did offer some info on the batteries but was soon found and the nit picking etc started so I will not post any info on any forum about what I do and how it is done.
Having witnessed first hand the type of garbage you refer to on another forum I respect your decision to remain silent. I find it sad that it should occur on a forum where one might believe the average age is higher than most and should that not mean we have had the life experience to learn a bit more tolerance. Maybe not.
It makes it hard for guys like me however, who have learnt enough about LiFePO4 to make me want a system but cannot find the final details needed to put it all together.
In fact, I'm truly excited by the prospect. (You listening Billeeeeee? Another excited convert!!)
It was one of your colleagues in the private forum (The gentleman from Illawarra) who got me started actually. When the time comes in a little over a year for me to bite the bullet and start buying components I was planning on PM'ing him for some advice or just retain his services to put something together for me.
One of my fears however was that by then he may decide he's had enough and leave that forum.
Is it possible to learn the contact details (Privately of course) of someone I might contact privately when the time comes in case he's no longer available?
That would make me a very happy camper having a back up plan in place.
Thank you for your time and good luck in your development work.
Cheers
Jim
beiffe said
10:14 PM Sep 23, 2014
Hi Jim
Not sure what next year will bring. The only thing I can suggest is to watch the forums and see if their are changes but I would hope that a certain person will soon be able to finish his project and drive it out into our great country. There may be an EBook (not sure) or the info may just be locked in the closed forum and the members will just continue amongst themselves. The things we have developed now far exceed anything we had ever dreamed of and much of it has not been thought of outside the forum and I assume wont be for many years. Many commercial firms would love to get their hands on the development that has been done.
The members of the closed forum have all elected to remain loyal to the Illawarra person and have sworn that any information gained on the forum is for their use and for no one else so none of the members would be able to assist or advise (SORRY). He is the only one who can decide who gets access to the information and whether he will assist in an instal or at least the parts that are critical to a successful install.
We feel the information is valuable to him and he spent the time and effort to develop the system under duress and we are not prepared to let it out to people who would gain commercial reward or just use it to boost their ego or profile. If they want to get the info then buy some batteries and do the testing themselves.
Much of the data presented on many commercial sites in our opinion is wrong and will result in reduced life of the batteries, and much has been gleamed from the BS on the forums as many of the errors in the commercial site web sites reflects the rubbish from the forums and visa versa so it is now a merry go around LOL
We are disappointed that we could not share the info but the decision was forced on us and now we have well over 100 users all with setups from 100Ah @12v very simple to some over 900Ah @24v in 40ft buses as well as some residential setups.
We ( the members of the forum) have designed systems that enable us to utilise existing chargers etc and maintain our batteries safely without Battery Management Systems that many dealers try and sell. The main change most have made is to instal a larger inverter as now they can utilise the power available to run the appliances that have before been impossible to use in a RV
We know it is hard for anyone starting up now as they are virtually on their own and any data we posted in the early days now littered with myths and miss truths as well as data that is incorrect and in some cases very wrong.
All those that has been able to setup their systems are REALLY EXCITED because we can use our RV's as they want to.
I have a 7mtr Hino that is completely 240v with no gas and is air conditioned with a split system domestic aircon and use an induction stove and Kmart toaster and Aldi coffee machine as well as many 240 appliances. Even my hot water is obtained by excess solar and I have now been 4 years reliant on solar.
Once you are Lithium powered you can find those appliances that make live enjoyable and use them, things like pie makers, sandwich makers, coffee percolators etc.
Regards
Brian
Reed said
12:12 AM Sep 24, 2014
Jim
The important thing is to ignore the ignorance of the naysayers. To bad a forum is not like Facebook and you could just unfriend or cut off their posts. They do not have to read what is put on by an OP (original poster). Comments should be to the point.
The Australian LFP cabal may or may not have much to add in LFP knowledge but we shall never know. Our son has been in solar for 35 years. He has BS in electrical-mechanical engineering, 4 years or so in research at New Mexico State University in solar/wind/geothermal, was first licensed alternative energy contractor in New Mexico (also electrical contractor and is licensed master electrician) since 1991 and has contracted and built solar installations up to 1.6 megawatt. We trust his judgement and knowledge.
Shall be glad to share what we know via private message or on this forum.
Basically, our system is:
1.42 kW of solar panels. These are ganged in two sets of three in series. We have room on roof for another 7.1 kW of solar but have seen no reason for this. Just another bank of three more panels in series. A fairly trivial undertaking of an afternoon. The cabling in position is sufficient. The cost would only be about $400 US.
The power goes from panels to TriStar MPPT controller (MPPT-45 which by nomenclature handles 45 amps, MPPT merely stands for Maximum Power Point Tracking) at 90 V. We have gotten 1320 W through controller on maximum insolation. This is only 14 amps at that voltage. Higher voltage means less voltage loss and using smaller cabling.
The controller steps the voltage down to that required by the battery management system (BMS) to the battery bank which is composed of 4 LFP bateries (each composed of 4 LFP cells in series) which themselves are in series so the bank is 48 V nominal.
The BMS then adjust each of the 16 cells automatically to the proper voltages required to maximize system and prevent damage/overheating. This system sets absorb at 57.6V (3.6 V per cell). To be noted is that maximum voltage would be 62.4 V or 3.9 V per cell) but there are canonical limits beyond which damage to cells can be incurred. Once the individual cells reach 3.4 V (54.4 V for bank), the charging voltage remains at 54.4 V These voltages are apparently canonical since those the folks I am in contact with that run without BMS set maximum voltage at about 3.4 V per cell
The battery bank is approximately 9.6 kW-hours. We have room for another 4.8 kW-hours of LFP but see no reason to do such. Would have to change battery bank to 24V instead of 48 V which is trivial but time consuming in installing. The reprogramming of controller/BMS is trivial. The forward bay of the 5th wheeler is designed to support an Onan 5.6 kW propane generator of 300# pounds (136 kg) and manufacturer says it will support 400# (181 kg). The battery bank weighs about 256# (116 kg). The cost would only be about $1500 US with BMS.
The batteries and BMS we use were fabricated by Manzanita Micro from CALB (Chinese Aviation Lithium Battery Corp). There are a few other firms in US that are quite as good but the batteries and BMS are designed for the electrical vehicle crowd with extremely high C demands. We have trialed at over 3200 W with microwaveand air conditioner running simultaneously.
The battery bank power then goes through a Magnum 4.0 PSW inverter to 120 AC and through controller to 12 V interior usage.
We do have a number of monitors on our panel board:
TriStar MPPT: voltage, power in amps (at that particular voltage) and watts. Amps is a somewhat spurious unit since it depends on voltage. It is absolute if you do know the voltage. A watt is just a joule per second
Magnum inverter: on/off, voltage
Manzanita BMS: voltage of each of 16 cells and total voltage, minimum and maximum voltages ever attained, danger voltage levels high and low, charging/discharging rate in amps for some reason (just mutliply by voltage), and W-hours to full (EV folks think of battery bank as fuel)
Happily, all three monitors give the same voltage.
With the original 700 W solar with 4 x AGM batteries is now in a wrecking yard near Mexico City - the solar system was still working great), we did hook into line power and destroyed two microwaves in Mexico (Baja and Yucatan) due to very dirty power. It would vary from 80 to 145 V. A surge protector was not of much use since it turned off the power as much as it was turned on. Our son and family were down for a week to visit us on beach in Yucatan and he brought down a battery charger. This worked great. He designed current system so that we have two battery chargers that can be used in parallel. One is a 0.5 kW charger to be used with our small Honda generator (which we have never used except to trial) and the other is a 1.0 kW. We can hook into a 15 amp (120 V), basically a 1.5 kW system. 15 amp power is available almost anywhere and is the norm is Mexico. So we no longer have to worry about dirty power. The chargers really do not care about the voltage.
We have changed to all LED lights and have thought about installing Stirling cycle fridge and split-level a/c. This would cost money and things work well as they are. If we were overlanders heading to South America, we would change to a much smaller rig and change the fittings but we are 74 and probably shall not get further than Guatemala as we have before. The fortunate thing about North America is that we can be "Goldilockers" as in "not to hot and not to cold, just right!". We go north and/or up in elevation when it gets hot and reverse it when it gets cold. Two years ago it was 103 F (40C) in Fort Collins, so we went up to 10,400' (3200 m) for a week and it was down to 38 F (3 or 4 C).
This stuff is not rocket science, just common sense and elementary electrical engineering and fabrication
Reed and Elaine
-- Edited by Reed on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 01:19:24 AM
-- Edited by Reed on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 02:29:57 AM
beiffe said
08:37 AM Sep 24, 2014
Hi Reed you have taken a different track to what we take.
We have no BMS on our cells and have designed our own management system that we feel is better for us.
A few of our members have tried the factory BMS systems and have found that they can cause major problems.
In the Electric Vehicle circles the major cause of failure is the BMS as it relies on small electronic components that when they fail can lead to either an over charge or a total discharge so be observant of these faults.
Some of our designs are now used in the yatching fraternity around the world but much of the important development has not been disclosed.
We have watched the American market as it is developing.
In my bus all my appliances are 240v which is our power voltage here in Australia. I run a 240v fridge, induction stove, toaster and coffee percolator as well as pie maker, slow cooker and bread maker as well as a few others. My hot water runs on 240v it is a standard 1400W RV unit gas /electric but as I don't carry any gas that option has been removed. I do have a 12v car radio in the bed head and the lights are all 12v or 24v LEDs cut from strips and then stuck into the original fittings. A few were bought for their surrounds such as over the bed and for reading etc.
Many Australians also travel to the sun and cool as the seasons change. Australia has a fair range of temperatures so many go north in the winter for the warmth and then head south to Victoria or Tasmania for the summer.
I use a very basic 2.5Kw inverter / charger (bought for its cheap price and to test what we could use) but the charger option is not configured as I dont connect to external power even though I use all 240v equipment.
I am a bush camper ( that means I don't go to caravan parks but camp out in the bush with no external facilities) and have found that I can generate more power than I need for my basic needs and usually have enough for the little luxuries like a hot shower and the use of the split system aircon when needed either for heat or cooling. I am not a softy where I need a lot of heating, but have used it a few times in the morning when the temp is down to 3 or 4 degrees C but I usually get dressed in warm clothing so don't use the heat cycle a lot. The cooling I do use for my Popa nap in the afternoon in the summer and to cool the bus for a few hours before retiring at night. I have run my air con for 9 hours or more at times and still go to bed with over 90% SOC so feel I can afford that luxury.
I am often scolded by the experts because they know that I cant do what I say I do but as a slow learner I will continue to do what I want till I learn the ropes. After 4 years I am still waiting to learn LOL.
I agree a lot of what we do is not rocket science but it is entirely different to what life was like with the old batteries where you had to watch what you used and how far you dragged your batteries down and have toi watch the power drain so you dont drain the batteries down and do damage to the batteries.
When cooking breakfast I normally have the induction stove going as well as the 240v toaster and then straight after one finishes I make a coffee using a coffee percolator (dont like floor sweepings as coffee).
I don't worry about how much power I am using as long as the inverter can handle it , I prefer to consider how many Amps I use for the operation. To regenerate the power used for a normal breakfast takes about 15 - 20 minutes on solar on a normal day. By lunch time I am usually heating water for a shower or using power in some other way if needed as I hate wasting solar. If I can use the power for my comfort, why let the controller turn it off because my batteries are full. Because we can take everything we generate why waste it by turning the solar off. It is free so why buy gas etc when you can have the batteries do it for free.
It is great that you are still travelling and enjoying life in your mature years and it is good that you ahave grasped new technology and was prepared to go out on a limb and go for it. I am a young 67 so hope I still have a few years left but I am not going to die wondering what I could have done LOL.
Regards
Brian
Reed said
11:50 AM Sep 24, 2014
Brian
..A few of our members have tried the factory BMS systems and have found that they can cause major problems
They probably did not have very good BMS. Primary function for BMS is in electric vehicle systems but it does allow faster charging for 16 cells and does have temperature control with several fans on each bank of cells.
We went completely to LEDs three years ago
Many Australians also travel to the sun and cool as the seasons change. Australia has a fair range of temperatures so many go north in the winter for the warmth and then head south to Victoria or Tasmania for the summer
We have boondock camped from -10 C to 44C. -10C is more than we choose to do again.
I am often scolded by the experts because they know that I cant do what I say I do but as a slow learner I will continue to do what I want till I learn the ropes. After 4 years I am still waiting to learn LOL We have the same experts here. They know what they knew 20 years ago and they have neither intrest nor time to learn anything new. I found this to be the case with a lot of engineers and scientists when I was a senior physicist at US Army Research Laboratories at White Sands Missile Range.
We are primarily boondockers (US military term from Tagolog meaning to be out in the bush. US infantry use it to mean out on operations and now used to mean the same as bush camping). We do not go to RV parks (caravan parks) as a general rule except for a night every three weeks or so to dump black water and do laundry).
Heat pumps are good down to about 40 F (6 C) but do not work any colder. We have a catalytic propane heater that uses about ¼ lb of propane (.1 kg) an hour that is sufficient to around -5 C. Beyond that point have to worry about freezing the holding tanks and it is time to head south.
We do use the Dometic air conditioner which uses 1750 W for up to 3.5 hours with family visiting but generally no more than 1 or 2 hours in the evening. But again, if it is that hot, it is time to go north a thousand km or several km in elevation.
Reed and Elaine
oldtrack123 said
12:12 PM Sep 24, 2014
Hi
The MAIN reason why those posting such as the above have been scolded by the experts is the impressions is given THAT all that can only be done by the Magic batterries As anyone reading it would really think those batterries must have magical properties. There has been a continual reluctance to ADD a few simple words to such posts
"I ALSO HAVE xxxxWatts of solar to keep the batterries charged""
That occurred right from the start with the man from Illawarra & as any reader can see, continues to this dayi
LiFePo4 batterries simply have advantages over other standards batterries [a]They have a much higher energy storage to weight ratio They have a higher charge acceptance rate [c]They have much higher discharge rates compared to other batteies of the same amp hr capacity .[Allows use of high power demand appiances [d]They can be regularly discharged to a much lower level witout shortening their life [e] very high cycle life Main disadvantage They can be seriously & PERMANENTLY damaged, if the charge & discharge limits /values are not maintained in EACH cell
In other words their usable energy STORAGE capacity is much much higher than similar Amphr rated convential batterries.
Anyone reading the battery data should be able to see that Those advantages have been long accepted by the qualified experts[on this & other forums ] but the bleating continues .
The simple facts are with sufficient battery capacity ,any one can run as much as they want ,. provided they have a means of REPLACING the energy used [a] to [e]above just shows the advantages over conventenial batterries
Such is well worth considering if:
[1]you wish to run high demand appliances. [2]you wish to minimize weight
If you have low energy demands think carefully before making changes.
PeterQ
-
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 12:17:28 PM
Reed said
12:39 PM Sep 24, 2014
Peter Q
As you noted
"Such (LFP)is well worth considering if:
[1]you wish to run high demand appliances. [2]you wish to minimize weight"
We are full time RVers, e.g. we sold our "sticks and bricks" and our fifth wheel is our only home (we do own property that we rent). We travel from Alaska to Yucatan and Guatemala, 6500 miles (10,000 km or 10 megometers) one way and from Cabo (British Columbia) to Newfoundland, 4400 miles (7000 km). We have gone from sea level to 12,400' (almost 4 km). We do run high demand appliances: air conditioning, Dometic refirgerator, micro-wave, forced air heating when it gets down to 0 degrees C, and hot water. It is our home and we see no reason to be more hard-corps than necessary (we are 74 and the days of severe backpackingl, winter time snow-shoeing/cross-country skiing are pretty much past)
We are weight police on our rig and make sure we are not over the weight limits on: frame, axles of 5th wheel and 6.6 liter 4x4 diesel dualie Chevie. If we were to have equivalent amount of usable energy of 7.5 kW-hours at 80% DOD on LFP which weighs 256 pounds (about 110 kg), we would need approximately 900 pounds of lead-acid down to 50% DOD. First, where we would the weight and cube of such a battery bank. A 410 kg battery bank would go right through the floor of our forward bay when we hit mountain roads in US/Canada and the topes (speed bumps) in Yucatan, Belize and Guatemala. The pin weight maximum on our hitch is 2400# and the maximum rear axle weight on dualie of our pickup is 8300#. We would be over pin weight and approaching maximum rear axle weight with 700# more of battery in front bay.
We do agree on their advantages.
They have a higher charge acceptance rate [c]They have much higher discharge rates compared to other batteies of the same amp hr capacity .[Allows use of high power demand appiances [d]They can be regularly discharged to a much lower level witout shortening their life [e] very high cycle life
I agree on their primary disadvantage They can be seriously & PERMANENTLY damaged, if the charge & discharge limits /values are not maintained in EACH cell
This is why each of our four batteries (composed of four CALB LFP cells) has its own battery management system. This adjusts each cell to the ideal setting of 3.4V and attempts to keep it there. We have a Manzanita Micro monitor that demonstrates the voltage level of each cell. The BMS also attempts to maintain the temperature of the cells through several fans each the box that each battery is situated. Many folks disparage the use of BMS but if one is going to spend the funds that the batteries cost, then we think it prudent to put in the funds for BMS and monitors.
The varied forms of lead acid battery banks are quite sufficient for most folks' purposes. Reed and Elaine
-- Edited by Reed on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 01:00:23 PM
beiffe said
03:02 PM Sep 24, 2014
I think it is time I again went into the background as I knew it would not take long.
All the info on my rig has been given many times on other forums including photos of my solar panels and my batteries etc.
For people to say this info was no provided is because they either can not remember or cant be bothered.
I am not prepared to get into a slinging match and as I have not got a degree in electrical engineering or electronics, I have only been using the batteries full time for over 4 years I will remain silent but perhaps Oldtrack will give his experience with LiFePo4 batteries and the testing he has done with them and where he bases his expertise from. To say that battery knowledge on lead acid is good enough to comment on LifePo4 is like saying a mechanic schooled on FJ Holdens has all the knowledge to work on the latest computerised Holden.
He has used the same tack / argument for the whole time and has been given details many times.
He and a couple of his mates are the main reasons that we took the development off the public forum and he still continues to destroy any discussion on these batteries and that is why no one will now give any details on any forums anymore.
Regards
Brian
oldtrack123 said
07:49 PM Sep 24, 2014
beiffe wrote:
[1] He has used the same tack / argument for the whole time and has been given details many times.
[2]He and a couple of his mates are the main reasons that we took the development off the public forum and he still continues to destroy any discussion on these batteries and that is why no one will now give any details on any forums anymore.
Regards Brian
Hi
[1]1 Only after it had repeatedly been pointed out, IT WAS & IS an esential part ofthe set up.
For quite some time the man from Illawwara,.claimed he could not give it ,because they were not his set ups, then the actual users couldnot give it because it was all very secret Special Knowledge of the "man'.
Yes, with some reluctance that info has come forth after the "man" o.k.ed it
But yet there still appears to be a great reluctance to add those EXTRA few words
" I HAVE xxxWatts of solar to maintain the batterries charged""or plus "To have my batteries charged by lunch time" for the benifit of THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ those earlier posts
[2[]You hit it on the head, neither you nor the" man" is electrically qualified in any way
Those who questioned statements being made by the "man" & some of his ideas/ terminology etc were /are
Qualified electrical people with long years of experience
Electrical engineers.
Other persons with a wide range of skills in matters electrical
All they received from the "man' when they queried some of his incorrect /misleading statements
was abuse & a total refusal to accept ANY thing he said was wrong.
Now you, NOT being electrical minded, would not understand how ridiculous many of his posts were.
Having said that I will repeat what I have said elsewhere
He has done a remarkable job of putting together a System, from a variaty of off the shelf items, that appears to be working well.
He is to be congtatulated for his efforts.
BUT I believe he could have found his project a lot easier, IF he had ben prepared to dicuss those disagreements in a sensible way rather than going on the defensive & denigrating all who dared to attempt to offer a different opinion
You are best to go back into the background, since every time this subject arises, you cry the same pathetic story.
PeterQ
SnowT said
11:16 PM Sep 24, 2014
Peter there are to 2 types of people in the world..
1 - the people that talk about it..
2 - The people that do it...
From what I have repeatedly seen, I have to agree with what I have heard.. With all of your past and present day comments.. You belong in the first group, you talk about the information, you ask Question's, You belittle People and you spout about your Background..
You will talk about your knowledge, but that is all you seem to do...
Here the Kicker..
Peter.. Why Don't you Build your own Lithium system..?? conduct your own research/test and then maybe report to us about what you have found out..
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some of the best inventor's of our time do not have any formal education, but they will tinker and make the stuff.. They will have failures but they don't give up they just look to see where they went wrong and fix the issue's and keep on going..
My father was not an Engineer as such, but he was the guy that fixed a lot of issue that the engineer's could not fixed..
- He worked on the design of the First Nomad Aircraft at Government aircraft factory..
[If I remember correctly he said something about all the people that worked on the aircraft signing their name under the last part to be installed..]
Peter it's Good to have the Theory, but the real knowledge is in the Practical application of that Knowledge..
How about you get out of the class room and get in the real World..
=================
Sorry Brian but he just p's me off sometimes..
=================
To the other reading this, this is not an attack this is just the plan Fact's..
== I have 300Ah @ 24v of Lithium's..
-- I recharge the batteries with 1200w >growing to 1600w of Solar @ 24v..
At this stage No other way of charging the batteries..
= Current load is about 30-45Ah drawn off the batteries overnight..
No Gas in my Bus at all..
All 240v Electrics with 24v Light's..
So yes if you want to go Lithium.. Just wait... It's not to long now..
Juergen
Reed said
12:13 AM Sep 25, 2014
Well nothing like being a know it all Yank getting between the upper and neither grindstones of a long going and extremely spirited discussion group.
I wished to start this thread for folks that have something to share with LFP usage: experiences both good and bad. I did not envision that it would wander off into diatribes
1. I strongly believe that folks that set up systems are their own through experiment and with off-the-shelf items are to be strongly commended. The American (in this I mean the US and not Argentine, Bolivian or other Americans) way is do-it-yourself (DIY). As noted in one of the posts, a lot of things have been developed in this manner by not formally educated people. Edison and Steve Jobs do come to mind
2. Being a person (retired senior physicist from US Army Research Labs at White Sands Missile Range) whose skill sets end with hammer, crow-bar, duct tape and WD-40 (OK, I can do routine maintenance on caravan and pickup), I prefer to have my technical work done by a professional, in our case, our son who has (as noted ad nauseum by myself) 4 to 6 years of research (depending on how you count the years) in alternative energy, degree in EME, 23 years as an electrical contractor and solar/wind contractor (licensed master electrician). His staff includes folks with degrees in ME, EE, and physics.
The world is a far happier place if folks can share experience and information. Unfortunately, the same disagreements and rancor occur in the US.
Son and family will be up from the mountains of northern NM this weekend to see brother's 2 week old son and hopefully: Resolve some minor electrical problems in our newly purchased rental home adjancent to younger son's place Resolve a back talk problem that occurs between the battery charger and battery when inverter is on.
Reed
-- Edited by Reed on Thursday 25th of September 2014 12:34:42 AM
oldtrack123 said
12:33 AM Sep 25, 2014
HI Snow You are a late comer to this subject, so I suggest are not in a position to make any comment on what occurred in the past Mainly on a forum that is now closed.
If that was still available you & others would see how ill informed "the poster" was. MANY of the posts showed a lack of understanding of simple electrical principles
I have never asked T1, or his club members any " secret" questions about their/his set up other than to please do as you have just done Add that little extra "I keep my batterries charged by xxxxWatts of solar" or by what ever other means.
I do not need to ask T1,or his followers , how to set up: individual Cell monitoring Safe gaurds against over charging or discharging How to wire to minimize errors or possible faulty connections giving errors Working out the best Charger size /type or method, so it does overload/burn out , due to the battery high acceptance rate. Or any thing else involved I do suspect that Knowing what can happen ,I may have more safegaurds.
IT IS NOT ROCKET science , just adaption of available equipment, while understanding what is required
Just as some other have done or are doing.
Instrumentation & control systems are not new, Spent many ,many years actually WORKING with them , the actual equipment has developed greatly, BUT ALL the principles remain IN fact, NONE of those basic electrical principles have changed, even though some may think so.
I have spent my whole working life in the PRACTICAL field .a lot longer in the REAL ELECTRICAL world than you may think
I was not a teacher or an armchair "Xspurt'
But a sound theory BASE was was needed for most of my work.
, Despite T1's constant reference to that "Theory" which he hates
. What I did find was that ALL that theory allowed me to quickly detect faults, in equipment that had NO fault finding data supplied. NONE was change cards etc & try !!
One HAD to undertand how it worked.
But again I WILL REPEAT I admire T1 for what he has achieved He has done what appears to be an excellant job & to have covered ALL the Bases
If I was still traveling, & intended to for a long time to come, I would go to LipoFe04 but with a 24V panel set up with a mppt reg,into a 12v battery system, as I did have limited roof space. I am quite confident that I would not need help,& may not use exactly the same equipment set up as you or other followers have done. Also I would not be burning out, destroying as much gear as someone else has. I would be using MY experience to avoid THAT
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 12:39:58 AM
Reed said
01:17 AM Sep 25, 2014
A number of the last posts are definitely thread killers.
Should definitely like posts to be on topic aka, what are experiences with LFP in the carvaning life style. I have already garnered some good information.
Our panel set up is 90 V from panels to MPPT-45. This reduces voltage loss and utilizes smaller cabling. 1300 W is only 14 amps at this setting. Battery bank is 48V nominal for same reason.
Believe the problem that the one group had with burnout of battery banks might have been in utilizing BMS designed for lead acid. Such BMS will maximize voltage and maximum battery storage which will result in rapid decay/damage/burnout of LFP. BMS designed for LFP will charge at moderately high rate (3.6 V per cell, well below maximum 3.9 V) and then adjust each cell to 3.4 V). Other well respected US LFP users prefer to adjust cells by hand. We figured that well designed and fabricated BMS for each battery is well worth the extra costs if one wishes to keep their investment solvent.
Reed
aka The FNG (friendly new guy)
-- Edited by Reed on Thursday 25th of September 2014 01:30:42 AM
Simple Life said
12:30 PM Sep 29, 2014
I have built loads of electric bikes, the place to discover more info is here...
You will find all the good and bad of battery murdering systems.
Forget the cruising forums, bunch of stuck up know it alls (who only know whatever the person who they paid told them was gospel), I was a grotty yachtie for over a decade until we bought here and haven't had mains for what seems like an eternity now.
-- Edited by Simple Life on Monday 29th of September 2014 12:37:39 PM
Have posted that we have had an excellent experience with LFP battery bank (9+ kW-hour) for 15 months. I have followed most of the fora in the US that are concerned with solar living with RV and home (on and off grid) but I have not found a thread in which folks share hands on experience with such battery banks.
It appears that a much higher percentage of Australians (and perhaps just a lot more Australians period) are using LFP for off-grid and RV'ing.
I know there is a lot of interest since there might be 50 posts on a thread and 3000 or more views ("lurkers" is the term used in US for folks just following a thread for information - and I am definitely one of them).
Have posted on our setup on another thread but will re-do here if there is interest.
So I am interested in folks experiences with LFP: design/fabrication/equipment (panels, controllers, inverters, battery banks etc). This might prove interesting
Reed and Elaine Cundiff (currently mootchdocking in younger son's backyard and helping with the grandsons - 2 years and the other 2 weeks old)
POWER FOR THE PEOPLE
Thanks for the suggestion. The usual answer from Moderators on the fora here is "to expensive and we do not care.
Reed
How do I contact "webmaster" Cindy. Cannot find a spot to do such.
Reed
Douglas?? Am I in trouble Reese
My suggestion is leave it alone on any forum in Australia as there is a group who love pushing their barrow but have now experience and amply display it to any who have experience in using the lIfePo4 batteries.
Beside most people who now use them prefer not to discuss it on forums so you will get very little advise form actual users.
There are some who have gone alone and bought their batteries and have set them up from scratch out side our group but from the info they have been pasting their batteries will die an early death, and this will only tarnish the name of the batteries.
Regards
Brian
We have successfully used 9+ kW-hr LFP for 15 months of solar autonomy to include running a/c (1.5 kW system) for 3.5 hours several times and running said for an hour in the evening numerous times. We have been stuck in a snow storm with 20 cm of snow on panels for 4 days running the forced air heater with temperature around -5C. We have not used generator in that time frame and have had Moose fight within 25 m of rig.
There are a few others in US that have been similarly successful. Liberty Coaches now exclusively uses LFP on their $1.8M US and above coaches. There is also a very large segment that produce electric cars, motorcycles and boats outside of the Tesla and other commercial electric vehicles. The major fabricators of LFP in the US cater to the EV crowd.
There are a number of do it your selfers (DYI) who have had success.
The reason there are hassles is the party the ignorance h\you note of folks who confuse LiFePo4 with LiPO and similar highly volatile cells. The second primary hassle is folks who Folks who hammer together systems with faulty cells and without knowledge of electronic and will doubtless have serious problems
I am not interested in diatribes against the system but only gaining information from folks such as ourselves who have had experience with LFP and not from naysayers without knowledge. We have the same problem in US fora: too expensive, not proven, will explode. There are a lot of folks who have probably kept their shares in buggy whip manufacturers (or, keep your confederate money boys, the south will rise again! right!). It always helps a thread if posters answer the question(s) posited by the OP (original poster) and not go off on their own tangents Anything else is a thread killer.
Reed
-- Edited by Reed on Monday 22nd of September 2014 12:29:13 AM
there is a group of People here that are right into Lithium's and the flack that has been thrown around has burned aLOT of people..
So what ever information is also kept close to hand.. The Hassles are not worth the trouble..
I do jokingly say to people lets get into LiFePO4y.. When the people are ready to Listen they will come a calling...
so We that have the system just sit back and let them do what they want..
Juergen
Juergen, are you specifically referring to this the GN forum?
I'm very very interested in this topic as I have committed myself to using lithium in my van build. So far I think I have a very basic understanding only.
When I saw the topic title of this thread my very first thought was "Beauty!!! If there is going to be an intelligent conversation about this topic without the naysayers jumping all over those trying to educate, surely this particular forum would be where it will happen"
Am I being naïve in thinking this?
Jim
Grandad5
There are not that many in US in solar community to include the RV'ers (caravaners) that have gone to LFP as yet but there are a lot of lurkers (those interested in subject 0- 3000 to 4000 "visitors" on some threads).
Several folks with LFP have blogs: "Technomadia", "Gone with the Wynns", Ron Jones etc. There are trivial discussions on Arizona Wind and Sun and Solar Panel Talk. Both of these have the pontifiating "..naysayers jumping all over those trying to educate..." It turns out that some of these folks are involved with solar companies that push their lead acid systems. Nothing wrong with lead acid. We were happy for seven years with a great bank of AGM. We are happier with the weight/cube etc of LFP.
The real heavy lifting has been done at Cruiser Forum Talk
www.cruisersforum.com/
Got to "Forums' and then to "Elwctrical: Batts/Gen/Solar.
Have a 15 months with lithium iron phosphate battery bank (9+ kW-hrs of LFP) and I felt like a Stone Age tribesman seeing a road and cars for the first time when I got to this forum for the first time yesterday. The boat people are 5 years ahead of the solar folks, both caravaners and home. As I have noted on some forum or another, the only naysaying has to do with economy of scale. If someone is a full-time cruiser (sails/motors one or lake and seldom sets into a marina), then LFP makes sense. It is uneconomical for someone who stays hooked in at the marina. The same is true for caravaners (full-time RV'ers). If you hook into line power at RV parks, then LFP makes no economic sens. If you are a full-time or main-time free camps (aka boondocker), it does.
Admittedly:
1. Boat people have money - the saying "a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money" has been around at least since Commodore Lipton
2. They are not primarily interested in solar (or so I think) but more into the very similar wind energy.
If you wish, I can give you the specifics of our system:equipment, voltage settings that seem to be canonical etc. But then, after just starting to read the extensive LFP work on Cruiser Forum, I feel like a rank beginner.
Reed Cundiff
-- Edited by Reed on Tuesday 23rd of September 2014 12:16:03 PM
At the start we tried to enlist the help of the so called experts on the two main RV forums in Australia but very quickly they turned on us because we insisted on talking in layman terms that the normal RV user understands. eg Amps and Volts.
We all have meters that record Ah in and Ah out and if the in is more than the out we are happy. Very few RV owners know what watts are and fewer have any meters that record it so why talk in a measurement that nobody reading would understand except for those few experts.
When we started to report on what we had and what we could do we were called liars etc as it did not conform to normal battery and that many still have the tent mentality concerning power usage even though they spend many thousands on their rigs.
These same people still follow us and come up with the same BS but they still have not bought any batteries but profess to know batteries so they know it all.
As you and anyone else that has embarked on the use of LiFePo4's know they are entirely different to the old style batteries.
The pity is that there are now people trying to use the batteries and are posting on forums that are obviously setting their batteries up to fail as if not done properly they can be destroyed the same as any battery. Due to the flack and also some of our detractors now desperately want the information we now longer are able to help these people and it will be sad if their batteries die a premature death as it will degrade the batteries reputation as when setup properly they would have survived the estimated 10 - 15 years or more.
We have a closed forum dedicated to the use and installation of Lithium batteries in RV's and stand alone systems (sorry it is a closed forum and has had its membership stopped as we have enough now to continue with our testing) and the first thing they all say after joining and reading the information available was how ignorant the so called experts were.
We now watch discussions on Lithiums on most forums as light entertainment as it gives us a laugh when the same people continue to show anyone that has joined our forum that the so called experts indeed know nothing when they talk about Lithiums.
Granddad I am sorry to say the naysayers are here as well as earlier I did offer some info on the batteries but was soon found and the nit picking etc started so I will not post any info on any forum about what I do and how it is done.
Regards
Brian
Having witnessed first hand the type of garbage you refer to on another forum I respect your decision to remain silent. I find it sad that it should occur on a forum where one might believe the average age is higher than most and should that not mean we have had the life experience to learn a bit more tolerance. Maybe not.
It makes it hard for guys like me however, who have learnt enough about LiFePO4 to make me want a system but cannot find the final details needed to put it all together.
In fact, I'm truly excited by the prospect. (You listening Billeeeeee? Another excited convert!!)
It was one of your colleagues in the private forum (The gentleman from Illawarra) who got me started actually. When the time comes in a little over a year for me to bite the bullet and start buying components I was planning on PM'ing him for some advice or just retain his services to put something together for me.
One of my fears however was that by then he may decide he's had enough and leave that forum.
Is it possible to learn the contact details (Privately of course) of someone I might contact privately when the time comes in case he's no longer available?
That would make me a very happy camper having a back up plan in place.
Thank you for your time and good luck in your development work.
Cheers
Jim
Not sure what next year will bring. The only thing I can suggest is to watch the forums and see if their are changes but I would hope that a certain person will soon be able to finish his project and drive it out into our great country. There may be an EBook (not sure) or the info may just be locked in the closed forum and the members will just continue amongst themselves. The things we have developed now far exceed anything we had ever dreamed of and much of it has not been thought of outside the forum and I assume wont be for many years. Many commercial firms would love to get their hands on the development that has been done.
The members of the closed forum have all elected to remain loyal to the Illawarra person and have sworn that any information gained on the forum is for their use and for no one else so none of the members would be able to assist or advise (SORRY). He is the only one who can decide who gets access to the information and whether he will assist in an instal or at least the parts that are critical to a successful install.
We feel the information is valuable to him and he spent the time and effort to develop the system under duress and we are not prepared to let it out to people who would gain commercial reward or just use it to boost their ego or profile. If they want to get the info then buy some batteries and do the testing themselves.
Much of the data presented on many commercial sites in our opinion is wrong and will result in reduced life of the batteries, and much has been gleamed from the BS on the forums as many of the errors in the commercial site web sites reflects the rubbish from the forums and visa versa so it is now a merry go around LOL
We are disappointed that we could not share the info but the decision was forced on us and now we have well over 100 users all with setups from 100Ah @12v very simple to some over 900Ah @24v in 40ft buses as well as some residential setups.
We ( the members of the forum) have designed systems that enable us to utilise existing chargers etc and maintain our batteries safely without Battery Management Systems that many dealers try and sell. The main change most have made is to instal a larger inverter as now they can utilise the power available to run the appliances that have before been impossible to use in a RV
We know it is hard for anyone starting up now as they are virtually on their own and any data we posted in the early days now littered with myths and miss truths as well as data that is incorrect and in some cases very wrong.
All those that has been able to setup their systems are REALLY EXCITED because we can use our RV's as they want to.
I have a 7mtr Hino that is completely 240v with no gas and is air conditioned with a split system domestic aircon and use an induction stove and Kmart toaster and Aldi coffee machine as well as many 240 appliances. Even my hot water is obtained by excess solar and I have now been 4 years reliant on solar.
Once you are Lithium powered you can find those appliances that make live enjoyable and use them, things like pie makers, sandwich makers, coffee percolators etc.
Regards
Brian
Jim
The important thing is to ignore the ignorance of the naysayers. To bad a forum is not like Facebook and you could just unfriend or cut off their posts. They do not have to read what is put on by an OP (original poster). Comments should be to the point.
The Australian LFP cabal may or may not have much to add in LFP knowledge but we shall never know. Our son has been in solar for 35 years. He has BS in electrical-mechanical engineering, 4 years or so in research at New Mexico State University in solar/wind/geothermal, was first licensed alternative energy contractor in New Mexico (also electrical contractor and is licensed master electrician) since 1991 and has contracted and built solar installations up to 1.6 megawatt. We trust his judgement and knowledge.
Shall be glad to share what we know via private message or on this forum.
Basically, our system is:
1.42 kW of solar panels. These are ganged in two sets of three in series.
We have room on roof for another 7.1 kW of solar but have seen no reason for this. Just another bank of three more panels in series. A fairly trivial undertaking of an afternoon. The cabling in position is sufficient. The cost would only be about $400 US.
The power goes from panels to TriStar MPPT controller (MPPT-45 which by nomenclature handles 45 amps, MPPT merely stands for Maximum Power Point Tracking) at 90 V. We have gotten 1320 W through controller on maximum insolation. This is only 14 amps at that voltage. Higher voltage means less voltage loss and using smaller cabling.
The controller steps the voltage down to that required by the battery management system (BMS) to the battery bank which is composed of 4 LFP bateries (each composed of 4 LFP cells in series) which themselves are in series so the bank is 48 V nominal.
The BMS then adjust each of the 16 cells automatically to the proper voltages required to maximize system and prevent damage/overheating.
This system sets absorb at 57.6V (3.6 V per cell). To be noted is that maximum voltage would be 62.4 V or 3.9 V per cell) but there are canonical limits beyond which
damage to cells can be incurred.
Once the individual cells reach 3.4 V (54.4 V for bank), the charging voltage remains at 54.4 V
These voltages are apparently canonical since those the folks I am in contact with that run without BMS set maximum voltage at about 3.4 V per cell
The battery bank is approximately 9.6 kW-hours. We have room for another 4.8 kW-hours of LFP but see no reason to do such. Would have to change battery bank to 24V instead of 48 V which is trivial but time consuming in installing. The reprogramming of controller/BMS is trivial. The forward bay of the 5th wheeler is designed to support an Onan 5.6 kW propane generator of 300# pounds (136 kg) and manufacturer says it will support 400# (181 kg). The battery bank weighs about 256# (116 kg). The cost would only be about $1500 US with BMS.
The batteries and BMS we use were fabricated by Manzanita Micro from CALB (Chinese Aviation Lithium Battery Corp). There are a few other firms in US that are quite as good but the batteries and BMS are designed for the electrical vehicle crowd with extremely high C demands. We have trialed at over 3200 W with microwaveand air conditioner running simultaneously.
The battery bank power then goes through a Magnum 4.0 PSW inverter to 120 AC and through controller to 12 V interior usage.
We do have a number of monitors on our panel board:
TriStar MPPT: voltage, power in amps (at that particular voltage) and watts. Amps is a somewhat spurious unit since it depends on voltage. It is absolute if you do know the voltage. A watt is just a joule per second
Magnum inverter: on/off, voltage
Manzanita BMS: voltage of each of 16 cells and total voltage, minimum and maximum voltages ever attained, danger voltage levels high and low, charging/discharging rate in amps for some reason (just mutliply by voltage), and W-hours to full (EV folks think of battery bank as fuel)
Happily, all three monitors give the same voltage.
With the original 700 W solar with 4 x AGM batteries is now in a wrecking yard near Mexico City - the solar system was still working great), we did hook into line power and destroyed two microwaves in Mexico (Baja and Yucatan) due to very dirty power. It would vary from 80 to 145 V. A surge protector was not of much use since it turned off the power as much as it was turned on. Our son and family were down for a week to visit us on beach in Yucatan and he brought down a battery charger. This worked great. He designed current system so that we have two battery chargers that can be used in parallel. One is a 0.5 kW charger to be used with our small Honda generator (which we have never used except to trial) and the other is a 1.0 kW. We can hook into a 15 amp (120 V), basically a 1.5 kW system. 15 amp power is available almost anywhere and is the norm is Mexico. So we no longer have to worry about dirty power. The chargers really do not care about the voltage.
We have changed to all LED lights and have thought about installing Stirling cycle fridge and split-level a/c. This would cost money and things work well as they are. If we were overlanders heading to South America, we would change to a much smaller rig and change the fittings but we are 74 and probably shall not get further than Guatemala as we have before. The fortunate thing about North America is that we can be "Goldilockers" as in "not to hot and not to cold, just right!". We go north and/or up in elevation when it gets hot and reverse it when it gets cold. Two years ago it was 103 F (40C) in Fort Collins, so we went up to 10,400' (3200 m) for a week and it was down to 38 F (3 or 4 C).
This stuff is not rocket science, just common sense and elementary electrical engineering and fabrication
Reed and Elaine
-- Edited by Reed on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 01:19:24 AM
-- Edited by Reed on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 02:29:57 AM
We have no BMS on our cells and have designed our own management system that we feel is better for us.
A few of our members have tried the factory BMS systems and have found that they can cause major problems.
In the Electric Vehicle circles the major cause of failure is the BMS as it relies on small electronic components that when they fail can lead to either an over charge or a total discharge so be observant of these faults.
Some of our designs are now used in the yatching fraternity around the world but much of the important development has not been disclosed.
We have watched the American market as it is developing.
In my bus all my appliances are 240v which is our power voltage here in Australia. I run a 240v fridge, induction stove, toaster and coffee percolator as well as pie maker, slow cooker and bread maker as well as a few others. My hot water runs on 240v it is a standard 1400W RV unit gas /electric but as I don't carry any gas that option has been removed. I do have a 12v car radio in the bed head and the lights are all 12v or 24v LEDs cut from strips and then stuck into the original fittings. A few were bought for their surrounds such as over the bed and for reading etc.
Many Australians also travel to the sun and cool as the seasons change. Australia has a fair range of temperatures so many go north in the winter for the warmth and then head south to Victoria or Tasmania for the summer.
I use a very basic 2.5Kw inverter / charger (bought for its cheap price and to test what we could use) but the charger option is not configured as I dont connect to external power even though I use all 240v equipment.
I am a bush camper ( that means I don't go to caravan parks but camp out in the bush with no external facilities) and have found that I can generate more power than I need for my basic needs and usually have enough for the little luxuries like a hot shower and the use of the split system aircon when needed either for heat or cooling. I am not a softy where I need a lot of heating, but have used it a few times in the morning when the temp is down to 3 or 4 degrees C but I usually get dressed in warm clothing so don't use the heat cycle a lot. The cooling I do use for my Popa nap in the afternoon in the summer and to cool the bus for a few hours before retiring at night. I have run my air con for 9 hours or more at times and still go to bed with over 90% SOC so feel I can afford that luxury.
I am often scolded by the experts because they know that I cant do what I say I do but as a slow learner I will continue to do what I want till I learn the ropes. After 4 years I am still waiting to learn LOL.
I agree a lot of what we do is not rocket science but it is entirely different to what life was like with the old batteries where you had to watch what you used and how far you dragged your batteries down and have toi watch the power drain so you dont drain the batteries down and do damage to the batteries.
When cooking breakfast I normally have the induction stove going as well as the 240v toaster and then straight after one finishes I make a coffee using a coffee percolator (dont like floor sweepings as coffee).
I don't worry about how much power I am using as long as the inverter can handle it , I prefer to consider how many Amps I use for the operation. To regenerate the power used for a normal breakfast takes about 15 - 20 minutes on solar on a normal day. By lunch time I am usually heating water for a shower or using power in some other way if needed as I hate wasting solar. If I can use the power for my comfort, why let the controller turn it off because my batteries are full. Because we can take everything we generate why waste it by turning the solar off. It is free so why buy gas etc when you can have the batteries do it for free.
It is great that you are still travelling and enjoying life in your mature years and it is good that you ahave grasped new technology and was prepared to go out on a limb and go for it. I am a young 67 so hope I still have a few years left but I am not going to die wondering what I could have done LOL.
Regards
Brian
..A few of our members have tried the factory BMS systems and have found that they can cause major problems
They probably did not have very good BMS. Primary function for BMS is in electric vehicle systems but it does allow faster charging for 16 cells and does have temperature control with several fans on each bank of cells.
We went completely to LEDs three years ago
Many Australians also travel to the sun and cool as the seasons change. Australia has a fair range of temperatures so many go north in the winter for the warmth and then head south to Victoria or Tasmania for the summer
We have boondock camped from -10 C to 44C. -10C is more than we choose to do again.
I am often scolded by the experts because they know that I cant do what I say I do but as a slow learner I will continue to do what I want till I learn the ropes. After 4 years I am still waiting to learn LOL We have the same experts here. They know what they knew 20 years ago and they have neither intrest nor time to learn anything new. I found this to be the case with a lot of engineers and scientists when I was a senior physicist at US Army Research Laboratories at White Sands Missile Range.
We are primarily boondockers (US military term from Tagolog meaning to be out in the bush. US infantry use it to mean out on operations and now used to mean the same as bush camping). We do not go to RV parks (caravan parks) as a general rule except for a night every three weeks or so to dump black water and do laundry).
Heat pumps are good down to about 40 F (6 C) but do not work any colder. We have a catalytic propane heater that uses about ¼ lb of propane (.1 kg) an hour that is sufficient to around -5 C. Beyond that point have to worry about freezing the holding tanks and it is time to head south.
We do use the Dometic air conditioner which uses 1750 W for up to 3.5 hours with family visiting but generally no more than 1 or 2 hours in the evening. But again, if it is that hot, it is time to go north a thousand km or several km in elevation.
Reed and Elaine
Hi
The MAIN reason why those posting such as the above have been scolded by the experts
is the impressions is given THAT all that can only be done by the Magic batterries
As anyone reading it would really think those batterries must have magical properties.
There has been a continual reluctance to ADD a few simple words to such posts
"I ALSO HAVE xxxxWatts of solar to keep the batterries charged""
That occurred right from the start with the man from Illawarra & as any reader can see, continues to this dayi
LiFePo4 batterries simply have advantages over other standards batterries
[a]They have a much higher energy storage to weight ratio
They have a higher charge acceptance rate
[c]They have much higher discharge rates compared to other batteies of the same amp hr capacity .[Allows use of high power demand appiances
[d]They can be regularly discharged to a much lower level witout shortening their life
[e] very high cycle life
Main disadvantage
They can be seriously & PERMANENTLY damaged, if the charge & discharge limits /values are not maintained in EACH cell
In other words their usable energy STORAGE capacity is much much higher than similar Amphr rated convential batterries.
Anyone reading the battery data should be able to see that
Those advantages have been long accepted by the qualified experts[on this & other forums ] but the bleating continues .
The simple facts are with sufficient battery capacity ,any one can run as much as they want ,. provided they have a means of REPLACING the energy used
[a] to [e]above just shows the advantages over conventenial batterries
Such is well worth considering if:
[1]you wish to run high demand appliances.
[2]you wish to minimize weight
If you have low energy demands think carefully before making changes.
PeterQ
-
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 12:17:28 PM
Peter Q
As you noted
"Such (LFP)is well worth considering if:
[1]you wish to run high demand appliances.
[2]you wish to minimize weight"
We are full time RVers, e.g. we sold our "sticks and bricks" and our fifth wheel is our only home (we do own property that we rent). We travel from Alaska to Yucatan and Guatemala, 6500 miles (10,000 km or 10 megometers) one way and from Cabo (British Columbia) to Newfoundland, 4400 miles (7000 km). We have gone from sea level to 12,400' (almost 4 km). We do run high demand appliances: air conditioning, Dometic refirgerator, micro-wave, forced air heating when it gets down to 0 degrees C, and hot water. It is our home and we see no reason to be more hard-corps than necessary (we are 74 and the days of severe backpackingl, winter time snow-shoeing/cross-country skiing are pretty much past)
We are weight police on our rig and make sure we are not over the weight limits on: frame, axles of 5th wheel and 6.6 liter 4x4 diesel dualie Chevie. If we were to have equivalent amount of usable energy of 7.5 kW-hours at 80% DOD on LFP which weighs 256 pounds (about 110 kg), we would need approximately 900 pounds of lead-acid down to 50% DOD. First, where we would the weight and cube of such a battery bank. A 410 kg battery bank would go right through the floor of our forward bay when we hit mountain roads in US/Canada and the topes (speed bumps) in Yucatan, Belize and Guatemala. The pin weight maximum on our hitch is 2400# and the maximum rear axle weight on dualie of our pickup is 8300#. We would be over pin weight and approaching maximum rear axle weight with 700# more of battery in front bay.
We do agree on their advantages.
They have a higher charge acceptance rate
[c]They have much higher discharge rates compared to other batteies of the same amp hr capacity .[Allows use of high power demand appiances
[d]They can be regularly discharged to a much lower level witout shortening their life
[e] very high cycle life
I agree on their primary disadvantage
They can be seriously & PERMANENTLY damaged, if the charge & discharge limits /values are not maintained in EACH cell
This is why each of our four batteries (composed of four CALB LFP cells) has its own battery management system. This adjusts each cell to the ideal setting of 3.4V and attempts to keep it there. We have a Manzanita Micro monitor that demonstrates the voltage level of each cell. The BMS also attempts to maintain the temperature of the cells through several fans each the box that each battery is situated. Many folks disparage the use of
BMS but if one is going to spend the funds that the batteries cost, then we think it prudent to put in the funds for BMS and monitors.
The varied forms of lead acid battery banks are quite sufficient for most folks' purposes.
Reed and Elaine
-- Edited by Reed on Wednesday 24th of September 2014 01:00:23 PM
All the info on my rig has been given many times on other forums including photos of my solar panels and my batteries etc.
For people to say this info was no provided is because they either can not remember or cant be bothered.
I am not prepared to get into a slinging match and as I have not got a degree in electrical engineering or electronics, I have only been using the batteries full time for over 4 years I will remain silent but perhaps Oldtrack will give his experience with LiFePo4 batteries and the testing he has done with them and where he bases his expertise from. To say that battery knowledge on lead acid is good enough to comment on LifePo4 is like saying a mechanic schooled on FJ Holdens has all the knowledge to work on the latest computerised Holden.
He has used the same tack / argument for the whole time and has been given details many times.
He and a couple of his mates are the main reasons that we took the development off the public forum and he still continues to destroy any discussion on these batteries and that is why no one will now give any details on any forums anymore.
Regards
Brian
1 - the people that talk about it..
2 - The people that do it...
From what I have repeatedly seen, I have to agree with what I have heard.. With all of your past and present day comments.. You belong in the first group, you talk about the information, you ask Question's, You belittle People and you spout about your Background..
You will talk about your knowledge, but that is all you seem to do...
Here the Kicker..
Peter.. Why Don't you Build your own Lithium system..?? conduct your own research/test and then maybe report to us about what you have found out..
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some of the best inventor's of our time do not have any formal education, but they will tinker and make the stuff.. They will have failures but they don't give up they just look to see where they went wrong and fix the issue's and keep on going..
My father was not an Engineer as such, but he was the guy that fixed a lot of issue that the engineer's could not fixed..
- He worked on the design of the First Nomad Aircraft at Government aircraft factory..
[If I remember correctly he said something about all the people that worked on the aircraft signing their name under the last part to be installed..]
Peter it's Good to have the Theory, but the real knowledge is in the Practical application of that Knowledge..
How about you get out of the class room and get in the real World..
=================
Sorry Brian but he just p's me off sometimes..
=================
To the other reading this, this is not an attack this is just the plan Fact's..
== I have 300Ah @ 24v of Lithium's..
-- I recharge the batteries with 1200w >growing to 1600w of Solar @ 24v..
At this stage No other way of charging the batteries..
= Current load is about 30-45Ah drawn off the batteries overnight..
No Gas in my Bus at all..
All 240v Electrics with 24v Light's..
So yes if you want to go Lithium.. Just wait... It's not to long now..
Juergen
Well nothing like being a know it all Yank getting between the upper and neither grindstones of a long going and extremely spirited discussion group.
I wished to start this thread for folks that have something to share with LFP usage: experiences both good and bad. I did not envision that it would wander off into diatribes
1. I strongly believe that folks that set up systems are their own through experiment and with off-the-shelf items are to be strongly commended. The American (in this I mean the US and not Argentine, Bolivian or other Americans) way is do-it-yourself (DIY). As noted in one of the posts, a lot of things have been developed in this manner by not formally educated people. Edison and Steve Jobs do come to mind
2. Being a person (retired senior physicist from US Army Research Labs at White Sands Missile Range) whose skill sets end with hammer, crow-bar, duct tape and WD-40 (OK, I can do routine maintenance on caravan and pickup), I prefer to have my technical work done by a professional, in our case, our son who has (as noted ad nauseum by myself) 4 to 6 years of research (depending on how you count the years) in alternative energy, degree in EME, 23 years as an electrical contractor and solar/wind contractor (licensed master electrician). His staff includes folks with degrees in ME, EE, and physics.
The world is a far happier place if folks can share experience and information. Unfortunately, the same disagreements and rancor occur in the US.
Son and family will be up from the mountains of northern NM this weekend to see brother's 2 week old son and hopefully:
Resolve some minor electrical problems in our newly purchased rental home adjancent to younger son's place
Resolve a back talk problem that occurs between the battery charger and battery when inverter is on.
Reed
-- Edited by Reed on Thursday 25th of September 2014 12:34:42 AM
HI Snow
You are a late comer to this subject, so I suggest are not in a position to make any comment on what occurred in the past
Mainly on a forum that is now closed.
If that was still available you & others would see how ill informed "the poster" was.
MANY of the posts showed a lack of understanding of simple electrical principles
I have never asked T1, or his club members any " secret" questions about their/his set up other than to please do as you have just done
Add that little extra
"I keep my batterries charged by xxxxWatts of solar" or by what ever other means.
I do not need to ask T1,or his followers , how to set up:
individual Cell monitoring
Safe gaurds against over charging or discharging
How to wire to minimize errors or possible faulty connections giving errors
Working out the best Charger size /type or method, so it does overload/burn out , due to the battery high acceptance rate.
Or any thing else involved
I do suspect that Knowing what can happen ,I may have more safegaurds.
IT IS NOT ROCKET science , just adaption of available equipment, while understanding what is required
Just as some other have done or are doing.
Instrumentation & control systems are not new,
Spent many ,many years actually WORKING with them , the actual equipment has developed greatly, BUT ALL the principles remain
IN fact, NONE of those basic electrical principles have changed, even though some may think so.
I have spent my whole working life in the PRACTICAL field .a lot longer in the REAL ELECTRICAL world than you may think
I was not a teacher or an armchair "Xspurt'
But a sound theory BASE was was needed for most of my work.
, Despite T1's constant reference to that "Theory" which he hates
.
What I did find was that ALL that theory allowed me to quickly detect faults, in equipment that had NO fault finding data supplied.
NONE was change cards etc & try !!
One HAD to undertand how it worked.
But again I WILL REPEAT
I admire T1 for what he has achieved
He has done what appears to be an excellant job & to have covered ALL the Bases
If I was still traveling, & intended to for a long time to come, I would go to LipoFe04 but with a 24V panel set up with a mppt reg,into a 12v battery system, as I did have limited roof space.
I am quite confident that I would not need help,& may not use exactly the same equipment set up as you or other followers have done.
Also I would not be burning out, destroying as much gear as someone else has.
I would be using MY experience to avoid THAT
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 25th of September 2014 12:39:58 AM
A number of the last posts are definitely thread killers.
Should definitely like posts to be on topic aka, what are experiences with LFP in the carvaning life style. I have already garnered some good information.
Our panel set up is 90 V from panels to MPPT-45. This reduces voltage loss and utilizes smaller cabling. 1300 W is only 14 amps at this setting. Battery bank is 48V nominal for same reason.
Believe the problem that the one group had with burnout of battery banks might have been in utilizing BMS designed for lead acid. Such BMS will maximize voltage and maximum battery storage which will result in rapid decay/damage/burnout of LFP. BMS designed for LFP will charge at moderately high rate (3.6 V per cell, well below maximum 3.9 V) and then adjust each cell to 3.4 V). Other well respected US LFP users prefer to adjust cells by hand. We figured that well designed and fabricated BMS for each battery is well worth the extra costs if one wishes to keep their investment solvent.
Reed
aka The FNG (friendly new guy)
-- Edited by Reed on Thursday 25th of September 2014 01:30:42 AM
I have built loads of electric bikes, the place to discover more info is here...
endless-sphere.com
You will find all the good and bad of battery murdering systems.
Forget the cruising forums, bunch of stuck up know it alls (who only know whatever the person who they paid told them was gospel), I was a grotty yachtie for over a decade until we bought here and haven't had mains for what seems like an eternity now.
-- Edited by Simple Life on Monday 29th of September 2014 12:37:39 PM