Like a lot of others on the forum, we too are looking at upgrading our vehicle soon. At present we have a 2003 GU Nissan Patrol that has a towing capacity of 3 Ton. Pete would like a vehicle that has 3.5 Ton towing capacity - fair enough, however we are 'confused' (easily done) about the 'pay Load on various vehicles we are looking at, and would appreciate some comments from those more experienced in this type of thing.
OK, we are looking at three vehicles - Colorado LX Mazda BT-50 Izusu D-Max
Gross Combined Mass 6,000 Kg 6,000 Kg 5,950
Less:
Trailer Axle Load 3,150 3,200 2,950
Kerb Mass 2,019 2,044 1,931
Tow Ball Load 350 350 240
Occupants 160 165
Tow Bar Package 30 49
Canopy 58 70
Bull Bar (Alloy) 18
Other Gear in back 170
Remaining Load Capacity: 233 1,156 211
To my humble look at things, if you add up the 'less' items you come to a similar figure of remaining load capacity for the Mazda as you have for the other two - am I right in this assumption?
Looking forward to your opinions please,
Ta and thank you
The Hats said
05:12 PM Sep 20, 2014
hey Mate
have you coincided a Toyota ute
Note: Kerb, tare & payload weights are nominal and will vary depending on options and tray/body type. Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle, including occupants, fuel and cargo.Weights
To be honest most of the dealers I spoke to before buying the van we did could not explain how the payload was arrived at and I was told at one place that they allow 350 kg for a single axle and 500kg for a tandem. When I asked about chassis design capacity, axle weight, structural design calculations and the like the eyes of salespeople invariably went blank.
In terms of deciding what size tug you need, you have to know the truck's unladen weight (what you have called kerb weight) and using the Mazda BT50 as an example (because that's what I have), the 2013 model had a tare/kerb weight of 2.044 tonnes, Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM - the maximum permissible mass of the vehicle) of 3.2 tonnes, a ball weight of 350 kg, Combined Vehicle Mass (the total combined weight of the tug and the van - CMV) of 6 tonnes and a maximum towing capacity of 3.5 tonnes.
This information can be combined in various ways. Firstly, the tow ball weight is deducted from the weight of what is being towed and added to the weight of the ute. The maximum weight that the towing vehicle exert of the ute is 350 kg. The ball weight noted on the compliance plate of towed vehicles only applies to the tare weight of the towed vehicle. The way it is loaded can alter that.
You can load the ute up to 3.2 tonnes which generates a paylod of 1.156 (3.2 - 2.044) tonnes but you can't actually do that when towing a caravan because the ball weight is deducted from the payload of the ute. The payload includes everything in the ute including passengers, fuel, stuff in the tray, bull bar, tow bar etc. so it can decline pretty quickly when you start putting extra fuel, generator, camp chairs, portable fridge etc into the back of the ute.
By deducting the loaded weight (and all that that includes) of the ute (providing its equal or below the GVM) from the CVM gives you your effective towing weight. In the case of a fully laden BT50 this equals 6.0 - 3.2 = 2.8 tonne and it makes no difference what it's towing capacity is. As the loaded weight of the ute includes the ball weight, this is deducted from the the mass of the towed vehicle which may make things a little easier to work with.
To take advantage of the 3.5 tonne towing weight the ute can only weigh 6.0 - 3.5 = 2.5 which gives an effective payload for the ute of 300 kg.
It's a little more complicated that it first appears and I hope this has helped a little.
Dave
Plendo said
11:03 PM Sep 20, 2014
When we were looking, we found we had to be very aware to effectively compare different vehicles, we were not looking at the utes, but I suspect a similar situation may exist.
In the wagon market, all manufacturers specify their pay load as the weight difference between the GVM (maximum weight sitting on the vehicles wheels) and the kerb weight of the vehicle, this is typically around 800kg.
The trap comes in how the manufacturers specify the kerb weight, some manufacturers specify the weight of a vehicle with minimum fluids, and no driver or passenger. Other manufacturers specify a kerb weight with half full tanks, and a driver, but no passenger.
When you add all the things that consume payload, 800kg disappears pretty quickly, especially if you add a bull bar, carry a fridge, run a heavy ball weight, and add a not very skinny driver.
Good luck with your decision.
Cloak said
07:46 AM Sep 21, 2014
We're planning to use a light truck to give us the payload we need. An Isuzu or Iveco dual cab with a fabricated utility box on the rear.
I've worked out we will have nearly 3 tonne available after the van is hitched on so we can carry additional water etc.
These trucks are available on the second hand market by the score and are much cheaper than BT50's etc.
Being a purpose build commercial machine they should be able to handle rough conditions indefinitely.
Cheers
Pejay said
08:33 PM Sep 22, 2014
Hi all,
Thanks for your information re the payload of the different types of vehicles we are considering. Whilst we were speaking with the Mazda Rep re the BT50, I made the comment that we had met a chap who had all the necessary extras fitted and when he put his vehicle over the weigh bridge he was surprised that he went 3.5ton. The rep said to both June and I that you could load the vehicle up to 3.5 ton and STILL Tow 3.5 ton. Of cause your fuel consumption would be high I would think. But I was surprised that you could according to the rep, carry and tow that amount. I wonder was this just 'Sales Talk'. Before we do take the plunge and purchase a new tow vehicle, we will need to do a lot more research.
Pete
Baz421 said
09:14 PM Sep 22, 2014
Pejay wrote:
Hi all, Thanks for your information re the payload of the different types of vehicles we are considering. Whilst we were speaking with the Mazda Rep re the BT50, I made the comment that we had met a chap who had all the necessary extras fitted and when he put his vehicle over the weigh bridge he was surprised that he went 3.5ton. The rep said to both June and I that you could load the vehicle up to 3.5 ton and STILL Tow 3.5 ton. Of cause your fuel consumption would be high I would think. But I was surprised that you could according to the rep, carry and tow that amount. I wonder was this just 'Sales Talk'. Before we do take the plunge and purchase a new tow vehicle, we will need to do a lot more research.
Pete
Sales talk Pete you can't exceed the GVM or the GCM under ANY circumstances (legally speaking).
Dave explained it well.
Baz421 said
09:17 PM Sep 22, 2014
The Hats wrote:
hey Mate
have you coincided a Toyota ute
Note: Kerb, tare & payload weights are nominal and will vary depending on options and tray/body type. Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle, including occupants, fuel and cargo.Weights
You can up the GVM of the ute to 3700kg by a kit from ARB (and maybe others) that fully complies with ADR's. Some states treat it as a mod BUT if you do it to a new vehicle before 1st rego it has a 2nd manufacturer's compliance plate fitted.
We have a GVM of 3700 kg and we use it plus we just stay under our GCM.
JackoFJR said
09:45 PM Sep 22, 2014
ARB , Lovells , Iron Man there could be others do GVM upgrades for some 4x4's , it depends on the rating of the rear axle how much they can go
and like Baz said its best if done before the first rego . A Toyota HiLux for example can be upgraded from 2780Kg to 3300Kg some of the other Utes can only be upgraded about 130Kg .
But the GCM will remain unchanged , so the max towing weight will be reduced by that amount , might not be of much use if your Van/trailer is near the max .
I know my 4x4 is at least 380Kg over GVM with no trailer and believe me I'm a light weight compared to most others I see
D and D said
10:49 PM Sep 22, 2014
If you upgrade the towing weight of the vehicle to be more than 3500 kg you will need to check the tow bar's capacity and you will definately need a bigger tow ball as the maximum that can be towed with a 50mm towball is 3500 kg - once you go higher than that then you need a 75mm towball and that brings a whole stack of other issues with it.
If you're looking for substantial towing capacity go for the options suggested by Cloak. They ain't pretty but if you want pretty as well go for a F 250 or similar.
Dave
-- Edited by D and D on Monday 22nd of September 2014 10:55:04 PM
sheeds said
07:50 PM Sep 26, 2014
I've always been confused between "tare" v. kerb v. "unladen mass" used by Canberra's Dept.of Transport. Specific unambiguous easily understood details for us lacking a bit of techno knowledge is required. Does "unladen mass" = tare? Do we allow 75kgs for each passenger's weight? Is the fuel tank to be full(or nominal) and all other tanks? LPG cylinders full too? How many kgs is allowed for each persons luggage/personal items(75kgs)? It is certainly confusing for many of us. Regards.
-- Edited by sheeds on Friday 26th of September 2014 07:52:16 PM
Like a lot of others on the forum, we too are looking at upgrading our vehicle soon. At present we have a 2003 GU Nissan Patrol that has a towing capacity of 3 Ton. Pete would like a vehicle that has 3.5 Ton towing capacity - fair enough, however we are 'confused' (easily done) about the 'pay Load on various vehicles we are looking at, and would appreciate some comments from those more experienced in this type of thing.
OK, we are looking at three vehicles - Colorado LX Mazda BT-50 Izusu D-Max
Gross Combined Mass 6,000 Kg 6,000 Kg 5,950
Less:
Trailer Axle Load 3,150 3,200 2,950
Kerb Mass 2,019 2,044 1,931
Tow Ball Load 350 350 240
Occupants 160 165
Tow Bar Package 30 49
Canopy 58 70
Bull Bar (Alloy) 18
Other Gear in back 170
Remaining Load Capacity: 233 1,156 211
To my humble look at things, if you add up the 'less' items you come to a similar figure of remaining load capacity for the Mazda as you have for the other two - am I right in this assumption?
Looking forward to your opinions please,
Ta and thank you
hey Mate
have you coincided a Toyota ute
They have a very large carrying Capacity
Just looking at all options
Cheers
The Hats
Ron
In terms of deciding what size tug you need, you have to know the truck's unladen weight (what you have called kerb weight) and using the Mazda BT50 as an example (because that's what I have), the 2013 model had a tare/kerb weight of 2.044 tonnes, Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM - the maximum permissible mass of the vehicle) of 3.2 tonnes, a ball weight of 350 kg, Combined Vehicle Mass (the total combined weight of the tug and the van - CMV) of 6 tonnes and a maximum towing capacity of 3.5 tonnes.
This information can be combined in various ways. Firstly, the tow ball weight is deducted from the weight of what is being towed and added to the weight of the ute. The maximum weight that the towing vehicle exert of the ute is 350 kg. The ball weight noted on the compliance plate of towed vehicles only applies to the tare weight of the towed vehicle. The way it is loaded can alter that.
You can load the ute up to 3.2 tonnes which generates a paylod of 1.156 (3.2 - 2.044) tonnes but you can't actually do that when towing a caravan because the ball weight is deducted from the payload of the ute. The payload includes everything in the ute including passengers, fuel, stuff in the tray, bull bar, tow bar etc. so it can decline pretty quickly when you start putting extra fuel, generator, camp chairs, portable fridge etc into the back of the ute.
By deducting the loaded weight (and all that that includes) of the ute (providing its equal or below the GVM) from the CVM gives you your effective towing weight. In the case of a fully laden BT50 this equals 6.0 - 3.2 = 2.8 tonne and it makes no difference what it's towing capacity is. As the loaded weight of the ute includes the ball weight, this is deducted from the the mass of the towed vehicle which may make things a little easier to work with.
To take advantage of the 3.5 tonne towing weight the ute can only weigh 6.0 - 3.5 = 2.5 which gives an effective payload for the ute of 300 kg.
It's a little more complicated that it first appears and I hope this has helped a little.
Dave
In the wagon market, all manufacturers specify their pay load as the weight difference between the GVM (maximum weight sitting on the vehicles wheels) and the kerb weight of the vehicle, this is typically around 800kg.
The trap comes in how the manufacturers specify the kerb weight, some manufacturers specify the weight of a vehicle with minimum fluids, and no driver or passenger. Other manufacturers specify a kerb weight with half full tanks, and a driver, but no passenger.
When you add all the things that consume payload, 800kg disappears pretty quickly, especially if you add a bull bar, carry a fridge, run a heavy ball weight, and add a not very skinny driver.
Good luck with your decision.
I've worked out we will have nearly 3 tonne available after the van is hitched on so we can carry additional water etc.
These trucks are available on the second hand market by the score and are much cheaper than BT50's etc.
Being a purpose build commercial machine they should be able to handle rough conditions indefinitely.
Cheers
Thanks for your information re the payload of the different types of vehicles we are considering. Whilst we were speaking with the Mazda Rep re the BT50, I made the comment that we had met a chap who had all the necessary extras fitted and when he put his vehicle over the weigh bridge he was surprised that he went 3.5ton. The rep said to both June and I that you could load the vehicle up to 3.5 ton and STILL Tow 3.5 ton. Of cause your fuel consumption would be high I would think. But I was surprised that you could according to the rep, carry and tow that amount. I wonder was this just 'Sales Talk'. Before we do take the plunge and purchase a new tow vehicle, we will need to do a lot more research.
Pete
Sales talk Pete you can't exceed the GVM or the GCM under ANY circumstances (legally speaking).
Dave explained it well.
You can up the GVM of the ute to 3700kg by a kit from ARB (and maybe others) that fully complies with ADR's. Some states treat it as a mod BUT if you do it to a new vehicle before 1st rego it has a 2nd manufacturer's compliance plate fitted.
We have a GVM of 3700 kg and we use it plus we just stay under our GCM.
and like Baz said its best if done before the first rego . A Toyota HiLux for example can be upgraded from 2780Kg to 3300Kg some of the other Utes can only be upgraded about 130Kg .
But the GCM will remain unchanged , so the max towing weight will be reduced by that amount , might not be of much use if your Van/trailer is near the max .
I know my 4x4 is at least 380Kg over GVM with no trailer and believe me I'm a light weight compared to most others I see
If you upgrade the towing weight of the vehicle to be more than 3500 kg you will need to check the tow bar's capacity and you will definately need a bigger tow ball as the maximum that can be towed with a 50mm towball is 3500 kg - once you go higher than that then you need a 75mm towball and that brings a whole stack of other issues with it.
If you're looking for substantial towing capacity go for the options suggested by Cloak. They ain't pretty but if you want pretty as well go for a F 250 or similar.
Dave
-- Edited by D and D on Monday 22nd of September 2014 10:55:04 PM
I've always been confused between "tare" v. kerb v. "unladen mass" used by Canberra's Dept.of Transport. Specific unambiguous easily understood details for us lacking a bit of techno knowledge is required. Does "unladen mass" = tare? Do we allow 75kgs for each passenger's weight? Is the fuel tank to be full(or nominal) and all other tanks? LPG cylinders full too? How many kgs is allowed for each persons luggage/personal items(75kgs)? It is certainly confusing for many of us. Regards.
-- Edited by sheeds on Friday 26th of September 2014 07:52:16 PM