How much current do our appliances draw from the mains?
Phil C said
11:36 AM Aug 9, 2014
Glad you asked
I have been creating and following threads regarding electrical stuff in this forum for some time, I have made some boo boos and some good sense (at times), however I do not believe any techos have developed a list of current draw on our common mains operated gizmos.
DISCLAIMER
I have used a fluke clamp meter to determine these flows, I am sure that each and every one of us will have slightly differing figures. This list is made up to assist those who want to run their gear of an inverter. I have used AC watts times 10 dc volts to work the DC current from batteries on inverter using the AC wattage at 85% to 90% efficiency (please correct me if this is wrong). I believe this to be the correct formula.
Normal operating current with laptop, various small battery chargers, fridge, 12V transformer and house batts system (house batts at full charge) 1Amp = 240W = 2.4 Amps from battery on inverter
Microwave at full power 8 Amps =1920W = 192 Amps from battery on inverter
Ibus Aircon on heat 9 Amps startup, 5 Amps running (with compressor) = 1200 W = 120 Amps from battery on inverter
Dyson heater 4 Amps running with rotation =960 Watts = 96 Amps from battery on inverter
Sunbeam electric blankets 800mA = 192W = 19.2 Amps from battery on inverter
Suburban Hot Water System on full 5.6 Amps= 1344 W = 134 Amps from battery on inverter
ECO convection heater 2 Amps = 475 W =47.5 Amps from battery on inverter
CONCLUSIONS
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
2. To stay warm on cold nights, the electric blankets win the day on battery drain.
3. Run the HWS and fridge on gas when at free camp.
4. Invest in a butane stove for the morning coffee with a small perculator (yummy)
5. Safe travels
TizTom said
05:00 PM Aug 9, 2014
I found very cheap power meters in Big W < $20, very handy for those who want to check their power usage I.E. my 700w Microwave that actually uses 1,500w, fridge 135w etc etc.
Plendo said
05:35 PM Aug 9, 2014
Great work Phil, when we first set up our inverter we measured the current draw of a number of items, both on the AC side, and on the DC side of the inverter, and from what I remember the current for the microwave, and HWS match yours. We run a Fujitsu inverter air conditioner, and while it does not match the brochure claims it is significantly better than the Ibis, drawing up to 3.4A cooling, and 4.6A heating.
BTW we do run on a large Lithium battery system, and would recommend it to anyone game to spend some time understanding how to make it all work (not recommended for the set and forget brigade, just yet).
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:58 PM Aug 9, 2014
Phil C wrote:
CONCLUSIONS
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
You forget one important factor in that recommendation - TIME.
There is no drama caused by using high loads from LA batteries for short periods (either directly or via an inverter).
100A will rarely be a problem for quite some minutes from a single 100Ah LA battery and higher loads are easily delivered for shorter periods.
To establish the capability of your specific batteries, check the makers specifications.
EDIT...
A "Fullriver DC115-12A" 115Ah 12V AGM can deliver 75A for 43 minutes at 25C, or 710A for 30 seconds.
Of more significance is your ability to replace the power you use.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:55:21 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:59:09 AM
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
You forget one important factor in that recommendation - TIME.
There is no drama caused by using high loads from LA batteries for short periods (either directly or via an inverter).
100A will rarely be a problem for quite some minutes from a single 100Ah LA battery and higher loads are easily delivered for shorter periods.
To establish the capability of your specific batteries, check the makers specifications.
EDIT...
A "Fullriver DC115-12A" 115Ah 12V AGM can deliver 75A for 43 minutes at 25C, or 710A for 30 seconds.
Of more significance is your ability to replace the power you use.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:55:21 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:59:09 AM
Cheers Peter, I must admit Im not up to date with these newer type batteries. Its forums like this that help educate old farts like me.
I took a look at LA batteries and even on ebay the 100AH comes in at over 2 grand, bit rich for my blood at the moment but the specs look unreal.
Thanks again
SnowT said
12:43 PM Aug 10, 2014
Phil C wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Phil C wrote:
CONCLUSIONS
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
You forget one important factor in that recommendation - TIME.
There is no drama caused by using high loads from LA batteries for short periods (either directly or via an inverter).
100A will rarely be a problem for quite some minutes from a single 100Ah LA battery and higher loads are easily delivered for shorter periods.
To establish the capability of your specific batteries, check the makers specifications.
EDIT...
A "Fullriver DC115-12A" 115Ah 12V AGM can deliver 75A for 43 minutes at 25C, or 710A for 30 seconds.
Of more significance is your ability to replace the power you use.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:55:21 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:59:09 AM
Cheers Peter, I must admit Im not up to date with these newer type batteries. Its forums like this that help educate old farts like me.
I took a look at LA batteries and even on ebay the 100AH comes in at over 2 grand, bit rich for my blood at the moment but the specs look unreal.
Thanks again
Phil, I'm not sure what you are talking about..
If your talking about Lithium[LiFePO4y] Batteries, yes there are people that are trying to reap the cash from the Lithium Batteries.. The biggest issue is that they don't know what they have...
- If you are serious about Lithium's you can find [12v]100Ah Battery Pack for around $700
There are 2 main suppliers of these batteries.. One on the west coast and the Other on the east coast at Townsville and no it not to expensive to get them sent down via freight..
So Phil... There is the straight info on how much Li's cost...
Juergen
-- Edited by SnowT on Sunday 10th of August 2014 12:43:20 PM
03_troopy said
05:18 PM Aug 10, 2014
Phil C wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Phil C wrote:
CONCLUSIONS
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
You forget one important factor in that recommendation - TIME.
There is no drama caused by using high loads from LA batteries for short periods (either directly or via an inverter).
100A will rarely be a problem for quite some minutes from a single 100Ah LA battery and higher loads are easily delivered for shorter periods.
To establish the capability of your specific batteries, check the makers specifications.
EDIT...
A "Fullriver DC115-12A" 115Ah 12V AGM can deliver 75A for 43 minutes at 25C, or 710A for 30 seconds.
Of more significance is your ability to replace the power you use.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:55:21 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:59:09 AM
Cheers Peter, I must admit Im not up to date with these newer type batteries. Its forums like this that help educate old farts like me.
I took a look at LA batteries and even on ebay the 100AH comes in at over 2 grand, bit rich for my blood at the moment but the specs look unreal.
Thanks again
LA = Lead Acid?
Phil C said
06:14 PM Aug 10, 2014
03_troopy wrote:
Phil C wrote:
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Phil C wrote:
CONCLUSIONS
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
You forget one important factor in that recommendation - TIME.
There is no drama caused by using high loads from LA batteries for short periods (either directly or via an inverter).
100A will rarely be a problem for quite some minutes from a single 100Ah LA battery and higher loads are easily delivered for shorter periods.
To establish the capability of your specific batteries, check the makers specifications.
EDIT...
A "Fullriver DC115-12A" 115Ah 12V AGM can deliver 75A for 43 minutes at 25C, or 710A for 30 seconds.
Of more significance is your ability to replace the power you use.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:55:21 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:59:09 AM
Cheers Peter, I must admit Im not up to date with these newer type batteries. Its forums like this that help educate old farts like me.
I took a look at LA batteries and even on ebay the 100AH comes in at over 2 grand, bit rich for my blood at the moment but the specs look unreal.
Thanks again
LA = Lead Acid?
Yep, Phil being a dumbarse again.. meant Li.. duhhhhh
Thanks guys for showing my weaknesses.. lol
Peter_n_Margaret said
02:36 AM Aug 11, 2014
There is no question that LiFePO4 batteries have some advantages compared with LA (lead acid) batteries, but they are not for everyone, yet.
In the mean time there is little that can't be done with AGMs (which are one of the valve regulated, sealed lead acid battery types), and that includes running some higher current draw appliances, if you feel the need.
Cheers,
Peter
SnowT said
11:26 AM Aug 11, 2014
I don't know Peter..
For a person/couple that setting themselves up for the life as a Nomad.. -- Initial cost Dearer.. say $700 per 100Ah 12v..
Here is a spread sheet that I created when doing my initial costing..
So the if you have read the spread sheet.. The initial cost of the batteries when compared to all other forms of batteries far outlasts the other batteries..
- The control gear is no more expensive as what is used for AGM's..
- the weight saving.. as you go up in voltage and Ah far surpasses LA's..
So Peter if you are setting up a New system and have the money to spare Go the Lithium's as the saving over the life of batteries is where you save Plus the weight factor..
With respect, your comparison is flawed.
Cost per cycle is not relevant. What is important is cost for each kWh delivered.
For a fair comparison you also need to add the cost of the money for each alternative over its lifespan.
And yes, I did agree that LiFePO have identifiable advantages, what I also said is they are not for everyone, yet.
Cheers,
Peter
SnowT said
09:48 AM Aug 13, 2014
Peter where is the cost Per cycle Not relevant..?
-- When compared to the Other Batteries.. For the Expected Life of the Batteries Taken down to their MAX Depth of Discharge..
LYP[LiFePO4y] have a 80DoD and 3000cycles $4248.00
AGM FullRiver DC120-12B have a 50%DoD and 1500cycles $5879.68
Over the Life of either set of Batteries.. To achieve the same Cycle rate you will have spent an extra $1631 dollars and on top of that.. be Carrying an extra 210kg of weight...
When taken into comparison.. Over the expected Life of the LYP you pay more for the initial set up... But then you don't have to replace them as you would like in the case of the AGM's which would be on their second set of batteries..
- One of the Premises behind that table was what I would expect to need if I was camped in a spot and got no sun for 3day's.. that is why I wanted 240ah usable.. I expect the bus to rust around that batteries before they get replaced Due to not running them below 50% DOD..
- LYP's Charge far quicker than AGM's... None of that dreaded ""I've hit 80% charge need to Trickle in NOW"" ..
think of the fact that the LYP's will suck up as much energy as they can take till they hit FULL..
Any Excess Solar can be utilized for what ever you want to do..
Juergen
beiffe said
10:52 AM Aug 14, 2014
Juergen you are flogging a dead horse.
Get out and enjoy your battereis and your bus and do more Glamping.
Regards
Brian
oldtrack123 said
12:37 PM Aug 14, 2014
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
With respect, your comparison is flawed. Cost per cycle is not relevant. What is important is cost for each kWh delivered. For a fair comparison you also need to add the cost of the money for each alternative over its lifespan.
And yes, I did agree that LiFePO have identifiable advantages, what I also said is they are not for everyone, yet.
Cheers, Peter
HI Peter
I'll go along with you as far as costs are concerned
I also readily recognize the pros &cons, but you are floging a dead horse too
PeterQ
Phil C said
12:53 PM Aug 15, 2014
Thanks guys
Its allways a lively discussion when a few of us get together, would be huge fun with a few beers and a campfire.
Thanks for the posts, Im still bemused why a 100AH AGM can only be used to 50% capacity. For goodness sake call the bloody thing a 50AH,just for dumbarses like me....
Travel safe
Peter_n_Margaret said
05:58 PM Aug 15, 2014
Phil C wrote:
Im still bemused why a 100AH AGM can only be used to 50% capacity.
Urban myth.
Go back to the manufacturer's specifications and get the facts. They are all available.
Cheers,
Peter
PeterD said
11:43 PM Aug 17, 2014
TizTom wrote:
I found very cheap power meters in Big W < $20, very handy for those who want to check their power usage I.E. my 700w Microwave that actually uses 1,500w,
What you have to realise is that microwave ovens are not like other heating devices. Most of them use a simple element. With an element you get 100% efficiency
The heart of a microwave oven is a radio transmitting valve (the magnetron.) The best of these valves rarely achieve better than 60% efficiency from the high tension power supply. Then on top of that you have add overheads like the power for the filament in the cathode of the valve, the timer circuit, turntable motor and the light. Add all these together and you are lucky to achieve 50% of the input power as output heat.
SnowT said
07:15 PM Aug 18, 2014
beiffe wrote:
Juergen you are flogging a dead horse. Get out and enjoy your battereis and your bus and do more Glamping. Regards Brian
I am actually out on the road at this very moment..
Mmm the fresh Coffee in the morning is great oh yeah especial with the nice cold milk in the cereal..
- the Cold wet Cans of drink and not having to worry about the ice melting, or the gas..
No noise smelly Generator's..
Had some interesting talks with a few fellow shooter's..
Depending on the cost of getting power installed, if it's going to cost to much I feel that I'm going to be able to talk them into going solar and batteries[Li's] for the club room's..
Ran the club rooms off my Bus for the whole weekend they liked the idea..
Glad you asked
I have been creating and following threads regarding electrical stuff in this forum for some time, I have made some boo boos and some good sense (at times), however I do not believe any techos have developed a list of current draw on our common mains operated gizmos.
DISCLAIMER
I have used a fluke clamp meter to determine these flows, I am sure that each and every one of us will have slightly differing figures. This list is made up to assist those who want to run their gear of an inverter. I have used AC watts times 10 dc volts to work the DC current from batteries on inverter using the AC wattage at 85% to 90% efficiency (please correct me if this is wrong). I believe this to be the correct formula.
Normal operating current with laptop, various small battery chargers, fridge, 12V transformer and house batts system (house batts at full charge) 1Amp = 240W = 2.4 Amps from battery on inverter
Microwave at full power 8 Amps =1920W = 192 Amps from battery on inverter
Ibus Aircon on heat 9 Amps startup, 5 Amps running (with compressor) = 1200 W = 120 Amps from battery on inverter
Dyson heater 4 Amps running with rotation =960 Watts = 96 Amps from battery on inverter
Sunbeam electric blankets 800mA = 192W = 19.2 Amps from battery on inverter
Suburban Hot Water System on full 5.6 Amps= 1344 W = 134 Amps from battery on inverter
ECO convection heater 2 Amps = 475 W =47.5 Amps from battery on inverter
CONCLUSIONS
1. Unless you have a large bank of lithium batts, probably not a good idea to run high current devices on the inverter.
2. To stay warm on cold nights, the electric blankets win the day on battery drain.
3. Run the HWS and fridge on gas when at free camp.
4. Invest in a butane stove for the morning coffee with a small perculator (yummy)
5. Safe travels
Great work Phil, when we first set up our inverter we measured the current draw of a number of items, both on the AC side, and on the DC side of the inverter, and from what I remember the current for the microwave, and HWS match yours. We run a Fujitsu inverter air conditioner, and while it does not match the brochure claims it is significantly better than the Ibis, drawing up to 3.4A cooling, and 4.6A heating.
BTW we do run on a large Lithium battery system, and would recommend it to anyone game to spend some time understanding how to make it all work (not recommended for the set and forget brigade, just yet).
You forget one important factor in that recommendation - TIME.
There is no drama caused by using high loads from LA batteries for short periods (either directly or via an inverter).
100A will rarely be a problem for quite some minutes from a single 100Ah LA battery and higher loads are easily delivered for shorter periods.
To establish the capability of your specific batteries, check the makers specifications.
EDIT...
A "Fullriver DC115-12A" 115Ah 12V AGM can deliver 75A for 43 minutes at 25C, or 710A for 30 seconds.
Of more significance is your ability to replace the power you use.
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:55:21 AM
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Sunday 10th of August 2014 01:59:09 AM
Cheers Peter, I must admit Im not up to date with these newer type batteries. Its forums like this that help educate old farts like me.
I took a look at LA batteries and even on ebay the 100AH comes in at over 2 grand, bit rich for my blood at the moment but the specs look unreal.
Thanks again
Phil, I'm not sure what you are talking about..
If your talking about Lithium[LiFePO4y] Batteries, yes there are people that are trying to reap the cash from the Lithium Batteries.. The biggest issue is that they don't know what they have...
- If you are serious about Lithium's you can find [12v]100Ah Battery Pack for around $700
There are 2 main suppliers of these batteries.. One on the west coast and the Other on the east coast at Townsville and no it not to expensive to get them sent down via freight..
So Phil... There is the straight info on how much Li's cost...
Juergen
-- Edited by SnowT on Sunday 10th of August 2014 12:43:20 PM
LA = Lead Acid?
Yep, Phil being a dumbarse again.. meant Li.. duhhhhh
Thanks guys for showing my weaknesses.. lol
In the mean time there is little that can't be done with AGMs (which are one of the valve regulated, sealed lead acid battery types), and that includes running some higher current draw appliances, if you feel the need.
Cheers,
Peter
I don't know Peter..
For a person/couple that setting themselves up for the life as a Nomad..
-- Initial cost Dearer.. say $700 per 100Ah 12v..
Here is a spread sheet that I created when doing my initial costing..
Battery Sheet.
So the if you have read the spread sheet.. The initial cost of the batteries when compared to all other forms of batteries far outlasts the other batteries..
- The control gear is no more expensive as what is used for AGM's..
- the weight saving.. as you go up in voltage and Ah far surpasses LA's..
So Peter if you are setting up a New system and have the money to spare Go the Lithium's as the saving over the life of batteries is where you save Plus the weight factor..
Juergen
Cost per cycle is not relevant. What is important is cost for each kWh delivered.
For a fair comparison you also need to add the cost of the money for each alternative over its lifespan.
And yes, I did agree that LiFePO have identifiable advantages, what I also said is they are not for everyone, yet.
Cheers,
Peter
-- When compared to the Other Batteries.. For the Expected Life of the Batteries Taken down to their MAX Depth of Discharge..
LYP[LiFePO4y] have a 80DoD and 3000cycles $4248.00
AGM FullRiver DC120-12B have a 50%DoD and 1500cycles $5879.68
Over the Life of either set of Batteries.. To achieve the same Cycle rate you will have spent an extra $1631 dollars and on top of that.. be Carrying an extra 210kg of weight...
When taken into comparison.. Over the expected Life of the LYP you pay more for the initial set up... But then you don't have to replace them as you would like in the case of the AGM's which would be on their second set of batteries..
- One of the Premises behind that table was what I would expect to need if I was camped in a spot and got no sun for 3day's.. that is why I wanted 240ah usable.. I expect the bus to rust around that batteries before they get replaced Due to not running them below 50% DOD..
- LYP's Charge far quicker than AGM's... None of that dreaded ""I've hit 80% charge need to Trickle in NOW"" ..
think of the fact that the LYP's will suck up as much energy as they can take till they hit FULL..
Any Excess Solar can be utilized for what ever you want to do..
Juergen
Get out and enjoy your battereis and your bus and do more Glamping.
Regards
Brian
HI Peter
I'll go along with you as far as costs are concerned
I also readily recognize the pros &cons, but you are floging a dead horse too
PeterQ
Its allways a lively discussion when a few of us get together, would be huge fun with a few beers and a campfire.
Thanks for the posts, Im still bemused why a 100AH AGM can only be used to 50% capacity. For goodness sake call the bloody thing a 50AH,just for dumbarses like me....
Travel safe
Urban myth.
Go back to the manufacturer's specifications and get the facts. They are all available.
Cheers,
Peter
What you have to realise is that microwave ovens are not like other heating devices. Most of them use a simple element. With an element you get 100% efficiency
The heart of a microwave oven is a radio transmitting valve (the magnetron.) The best of these valves rarely achieve better than 60% efficiency from the high tension power supply. Then on top of that you have add overheads like the power for the filament in the cathode of the valve, the timer circuit, turntable motor and the light. Add all these together and you are lucky to achieve 50% of the input power as output heat.
I am actually out on the road at this very moment..
Mmm the fresh Coffee in the morning is great oh yeah especial with the nice cold milk in the cereal..
- the Cold wet Cans of drink and not having to worry about the ice melting, or the gas..
No noise smelly Generator's..
Had some interesting talks with a few fellow shooter's..
Depending on the cost of getting power installed, if it's going to cost to much I feel that I'm going to be able to talk them into going solar and batteries[Li's] for the club room's..
Ran the club rooms off my Bus for the whole weekend they liked the idea..
Juergen