Just a question to the learned sparkies on this section.
My aged neighbours have some outside garden lighting which they think is off 240V, not 12V.
The previous owner fitted or had fitted three light switches mounted on a plastic oblong switch box on an outside wall directly under an eaves overhang. These three switches are not covered with any cover (other than the overhanging eaves) and are the domestic type you would normally find inside your home for your lights etc.
The rain cannot get directly onto the switches, but misdirected hose water could and the eaves are subject to leaking in storms etc when the gutters overflow, evident from the water stains on the fibre panels under the eaves.
My question is whether these switches are legal mounted outside without any sort of cover over them (I have seen similar switches outside but with a clear plastic hinged cover over them.)
Sorry if this sounds dumb, but the two old ladies asked me if it was legal but I'm not qualified to answer.
Big Gorilla said
05:21 PM Jul 21, 2014
Really difficult to say without seeing the switches and the location, but as you've described it, I'd suggest the switches should be of a waterproof type...
Vic41 said
06:28 PM Jul 21, 2014
This is what they are like and location. They are a three gang plate with three vertical switches, no neon light like the one in the odd picture but the plate and switches are similar.
There is an open lattice pergola leading off the eaves. I think the leads shown are for Xmas lights, presumably 240V off a transformer.
The owners said the triple gang light switches are for outside garden lights, installed prior to their ownership.
Note the round sensor light near the switches, one further down under the eaves is full of water due to water leaking from the roof into the eaves.
I'd be more Worried about the water Leaking thru the roof than the Electric's at this stage..
I've seen what a Leaky roof can do to the internals of a house..
- Water sitting above the eves cam lead to rot which if it goes thru a cycle of wet/dry can lead to a total failure of the Main roof rafter's..
The Mounting Block Looks to be of the Solid type.. Not Like the normal inside one's..
Look I can't find my 3000 to give you a definite answer..
Juergen
Vic41 said
08:55 PM Jul 21, 2014
SnowT wrote:
I'd be more Worried about the water Leaking thru the roof than the Electric's at this stage..
I've seen what a Leaky roof can do to the internals of a house.. - Water sitting above the eves cam lead to rot which if it goes thru a cycle of wet/dry can lead to a total failure of the Main roof rafter's..
The Mounting Block Looks to be of the Solid type.. Not Like the normal inside one's..
Look I can't find my 3000 to give you a definite answer..
Juergen
I'll pass that on Juergen. Yes the mounting block looks like it has a knock out bit for conduit like you might find in a workshop or garage etc. Is a 3000 a circuit tester????
oldtrack123 said
08:57 PM Jul 21, 2014
Hi
The switches being high up under eaves In the corner would normally be considered in a weather proof location, as would be the light fitting
But if water is getting back into the eave,sI would be very worried about the rear of the light fitting getting water in
I do hope the metal base of the light fitting is effectively earthed & the home has a RCD fitted on those circuits
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 21st of July 2014 08:58:21 PM
oldtrack123 said
09:00 PM Jul 21, 2014
Vic 1 wrote:
I'll pass that on Juergen. Yes the mounting block looks like it has a knock out bit for conduit like you might find in a workshop or garage etc. Is a 3000 a circuit tester????
Hi
Juergen is referring to the Australian S electrical Standard AS /NZS 3000 :2008
It is the Electrician bible
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 21st of July 2014 09:01:13 PM
Vic41 said
09:11 PM Jul 21, 2014
Thanks Peter. I'll have to ask them about whether they have an RCD fitted in the meter box, the places are over 20 years old, I had to have one fitted to mine, don't know about theirs.
I was having a shave with an electric shaver yesterday (corded off a switch) when I noticed bare copper wires showing on the cord (cord could have got caught in a drawer or something damaging it) which I had hold of, an insulated part that is.
I nearly freaked out, turned the power off pronto and tossed the cord out. If I had touched it while on what would have happened, I assume the RCD would have tripped but would the initial shock be enough to kill you?
Damned if I know how the cord got damaged, maybe SWMBO is trying to knock me off
Phil C said
09:41 PM Jul 21, 2014
The trouble with this set up is that it could be sprayed, subject to moisture or made wet, thus is a class 2 (I think from memory) environment (like a shower or bathroom). NOW I havnt seen AS3000 for many years and may be way off beam with any new stuff, and there are places for normal switches in bathrooms, for me I would advise your friend to get a proper, legal outside switch installed, it just isnt worth the risk.
Just saw an entry that has AS300:2008, my last look was 2007.
Guys, when it all comes down to this sort of stuff, is it worth the risk? I would imagine a 20 year old house would have fuses and no RCD.
Rant over
Safe travels
oldtrack123 said
10:16 PM Jul 21, 2014
Hi Phil
You are right should be 2007 for As/nzs 3000
2008 is for AS /NZS 3001
Peter
Aus-Kiwi said
11:36 PM Jul 21, 2014
The wire alone is not legal if 240v I don't see an earth either. if 12v DC it's not a problem .. Should be saddled, supported way better ..
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Monday 21st of July 2014 11:37:54 PM
Vic41 said
02:31 AM Jul 22, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
The wire alone is not legal if 240v I don't see an earth either. if 12v DC it's not a problem .. Should be saddled, supported way better ..
I don't know where those loose wires terminate AK, they look like they go through the brickwork, probably into the room on the opposite side of the wall, I am guessing being Xmas lights they are probably running off 240 plugged into a socket inside the home via a 12V transformer like a lot of Xmas lights are.
Phil, we have been in our place next door (villa units/same builder) since they were new in 1989, so 25 years ago and they did not have RCD's fitted, just ceramic fuses. I had one fitted to ours quite some years ago, but don't know what the previous neighbours did or whether the current ones have one fitted either, but will ask them. I fitted a solar panel security light for them a couple of days ago when I noticed the switches. Good neighbours and we do each other favours (they keep an eye on our place when we go away) so a win win situation for all of us.
Can't afford to lose them so will follow those things up, irrespective of any benefits, hate to see anything happen to them.
Phil C said
12:56 PM Jul 22, 2014
Vic41 wrote:
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
The wire alone is not legal if 240v I don't see an earth either. if 12v DC it's not a problem .. Should be saddled, supported way better ..
I don't know where those loose wires terminate AK, they look like they go through the brickwork, probably into the room on the opposite side of the wall, I am guessing being Xmas lights they are probably running off 240 plugged into a socket inside the home via a 12V transformer like a lot of Xmas lights are.
Phil, we have been in our place next door (villa units/same builder) since they were new in 1989, so 25 years ago and they did not have RCD's fitted, just ceramic fuses. I had one fitted to ours quite some years ago, but don't know what the previous neighbours did or whether the current ones have one fitted either, but will ask them. I fitted a solar panel security light for them a couple of days ago when I noticed the switches. Good neighbours and we do each other favours (they keep an eye on our place when we go away) so a win win situation for all of us.
Can't afford to lose them so will follow those things up, irrespective of any benefits, hate to see anything happen to them.
Its all good Vic41. Neighbours are important and keeping sweet is also important. As stated earlier if the wiring is ELV (12Volts) then its fine, however I would get the silastic out around the box.
Electricity can be a nasty thing to play with, so be careful, our last home was built in the late 60s and had ceramic fuses, one of the first jobs a mate and I did was fully replace the fuse box with an up to date switch box, RCDs and circuit breakers. Cost a bit bit well worth it. You can get a RCD fitted for around $200 ( at least thats what I use to charge).
You are a good neighbour taking care like this mate, Im a bit of a pedantic grumpy old fart so please forgive my rants (goes with the territory)
Take care
PhilC
Vic41 said
02:38 PM Jul 22, 2014
Thanks Phil,
Had a talk with them this morning, yes the had an RCD fitted so all good.
The wires coming that appear to be coming out of the wall are actually only pushed in between the brick top and eaves fibreboard, they are for fair lights working on 12 volts, the down one leads to the control box (I couldn't see where that was or where it plugged in etc.).
We already had our RCD fitted so won't have to worry about that.
Regards my earlier comment on a bare wire showing on my electric shaver (cord since tossed out) how would that effect someone who touched it while live (turned on a the power point) would the RCD save their life or could the initial shock before it tripped out still affect them?
Phil C said
05:12 PM Jul 22, 2014
Vic, theoretically the RCD should pop after or before 30mS and make you safe, you will get a boot off the wire if it is live, if the RCD doesnt function as advertised (some do) you will be electrocuted.
When we studied the effects of electrocution, it seems each shock "cooks" a part of the body, the more shocks you get in life, the more progressive damage it can cause, I have had 3 major "boots" in my life and dont want any more, if it is across your heart (one hand to the other) it can cause ventricular fibrillation and you will die unless CPR or a lifepack is used.
Quick story
My Father in law (rest him) had fixed the lead to a very old jug with electricians tape he flogged from my tool box, little strands of bare wire pocked out of the tape all along the length of the lead. When I saw this highly dangerous thing I chopped it into small bits so he wouldnt do it again (he went of his nut at me)
My wife and I then went out and bought him a new kettle that day.
Moral of this story
Dont mess with Father in laws or electricity..
Safe travels
Vic41 said
09:51 PM Jul 22, 2014
Thanks Phil, I got hit by lightning once, knocked me a over t but I survived.
Other than getting a shock from the odd battery and once peeing on an electric fence (ouch, that hurt) have been pretty lucky.
I do have a heart condition (tachycardia) so have to watch things that make your heart race which is why I don't read black label Playboy magazines
Phil C said
11:56 AM Jul 23, 2014
Love ya work Vic41. Take it easy and look after yourself. Im glad I only have osteoarthritis at least I can hobble, and a bad day wont kill me.
Thats gotta hurt (peeing on an electric fence). I will try to avoid that in the future, thanks for the heads up
As for lightning:
We were playing golf one wild and woolly day, didnt hear the cancel siren and merrily made our way down the 11th fairway. At the dogleg was a tall very old gum tree. We were on our second shot about 20 feet from the tree and BOOM!!! big bolt belted the tree and split it (oh the smell on ozone on a winters morning), well you have never seem 4 guys run so close to the ground so fast. Didnt give a damn about golf balls just got us and our buggy as low as we could. Must have looked hilarious.
Frankly I love lightning so much power and energy in a small area.
Cheers mate
-- Edited by Phil C on Wednesday 23rd of July 2014 12:06:29 PM
Vic41 said
12:05 PM Jul 23, 2014
Yeh, no fun getting old Phil, I would list my conditions but if I did someone might decide to put me away (physical and mental) LOL.
Aus-Kiwi said
12:21 PM Jul 24, 2014
I was tightening a 200 amp service on some flats and the old connectors broke away leaving me bridged between the two wires !! If you think you can open your hands at this time ? You simply CAN'T ! I have nerve damage from wrist to wrist including my shoulders . 20 years ago it happened and it still effects me every day.. I only got off by pulling my hands off the cables ... 6m up a ladder..
Just be aware RCDs are usually connected to power circuits ? Don't take anything for granted and don't rely on them !
Good breakers prevent fire hazard more as RCDs don't read load or trip if short is between active and neutral ..
Aus-Kiwi said
12:26 PM Jul 24, 2014
From memory if switches etc under eaves or out of weather . If it's within 45* angle from eave it will be fine..
Yes it can be squirted with a hose . But so can any power point!
Vic41 said
06:31 PM Jul 24, 2014
Thanks AK, boy you were lucky with your shock, wonder you weren't killed.
When I got hit by lightning (lightning ball) I was paralysed and couldn't speak, feeling gradually returned but arm which was holding a field telephone (cabled) took about half an hour before I could move it. I was sitting on a chair and the shock knocked me over backwards breaking the wooden slats on the back of the chair where I hit the ground.
Aus-Kiwi said
12:16 AM Jul 25, 2014
We do all our mains work live.. Only pull fuses on properties..Mainly to check polarity, rotation ..
Vic41 said
08:51 AM Jul 25, 2014
Bugger that Mate, hope you keep safe then!
Aus-Kiwi said
09:55 PM Jul 30, 2014
An RCD won't help if you are bridged in between active and neutral .. Tmk there's NO earth on electric shavers being double insulated .. Only if you are on earth conditions it would trip .. If your standing on insulated material like ceramic, Lino flooring etc you'll be toast .. This IS an issue in van or motorhome too!,
Vic41 said
10:42 PM Jul 30, 2014
That's a comforting thought !! Think I'll stop shaving
Aus-Kiwi said
09:18 PM Jul 31, 2014
Bring out the old cut throat ! Ahaha
Vic41 said
10:30 PM Jul 31, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
Bring out the old cut throat ! Ahaha
Nah, rather not shave at all than use one of those or a blade razor.....I've got a rechargeable so will use that instead!
Just a question to the learned sparkies on this section.
My aged neighbours have some outside garden lighting which they think is off 240V, not 12V.
The previous owner fitted or had fitted three light switches mounted on a plastic oblong switch box on an outside wall directly under an eaves overhang. These three switches are not covered with any cover (other than the overhanging eaves) and are the domestic type you would normally find inside your home for your lights etc.
The rain cannot get directly onto the switches, but misdirected hose water could and the eaves are subject to leaking in storms etc when the gutters overflow, evident from the water stains on the fibre panels under the eaves.
My question is whether these switches are legal mounted outside without any sort of cover over them (I have seen similar switches outside but with a clear plastic hinged cover over them.)
Sorry if this sounds dumb, but the two old ladies asked me if it was legal but I'm not qualified to answer.
Really difficult to say without seeing the switches and the location, but as you've described it, I'd suggest the switches should be of a waterproof type...
This is what they are like and location. They are a three gang plate with three vertical switches, no neon light like the one in the odd picture but the plate and switches are similar.
There is an open lattice pergola leading off the eaves. I think the leads shown are for Xmas lights, presumably 240V off a transformer.
The owners said the triple gang light switches are for outside garden lights, installed prior to their ownership.
Note the round sensor light near the switches, one further down under the eaves is full of water due to water leaking from the roof into the eaves.
I've seen what a Leaky roof can do to the internals of a house..
- Water sitting above the eves cam lead to rot which if it goes thru a cycle of wet/dry can lead to a total failure of the Main roof rafter's..
The Mounting Block Looks to be of the Solid type.. Not Like the normal inside one's..
Look I can't find my 3000 to give you a definite answer..
Juergen
I'll pass that on Juergen. Yes the mounting block looks like it has a knock out bit for conduit like you might find in a workshop or garage etc. Is a 3000 a circuit tester????
Hi
The switches being high up under eaves In the corner would normally be considered in a weather proof location, as would be the light fitting
But if water is getting back into the eave,sI would be very worried about the rear of the light fitting getting water in
I do hope the metal base of the light fitting is effectively earthed & the home has a RCD fitted on those circuits
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 21st of July 2014 08:58:21 PM
Hi
Juergen is referring to the Australian S electrical Standard AS /NZS 3000 :2008
It is the Electrician bible
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Monday 21st of July 2014 09:01:13 PM
Thanks Peter. I'll have to ask them about whether they have an RCD fitted in the meter box, the places are over 20 years old, I had to have one fitted to mine, don't know about theirs.
I was having a shave with an electric shaver yesterday (corded off a switch) when I noticed bare copper wires showing on the cord (cord could have got caught in a drawer or something damaging it) which I had hold of, an insulated part that is.
I nearly freaked out, turned the power off pronto and tossed the cord out. If I had touched it while on what would have happened, I assume the RCD would have tripped but would the initial shock be enough to kill you?
Damned if I know how the cord got damaged, maybe SWMBO is trying to knock me off
Just saw an entry that has AS300:2008, my last look was 2007.
Guys, when it all comes down to this sort of stuff, is it worth the risk? I would imagine a 20 year old house would have fuses and no RCD.
Rant over
Safe travels
Hi Phil
You are right should be 2007 for As/nzs 3000
2008 is for AS /NZS 3001
Peter
The wire alone is not legal if 240v I don't see an earth either. if 12v DC it's not a problem .. Should be saddled, supported way better ..
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Monday 21st of July 2014 11:37:54 PM
I don't know where those loose wires terminate AK, they look like they go through the brickwork, probably into the room on the opposite side of the wall, I am guessing being Xmas lights they are probably running off 240 plugged into a socket inside the home via a 12V transformer like a lot of Xmas lights are.
Phil, we have been in our place next door (villa units/same builder) since they were new in 1989, so 25 years ago and they did not have RCD's fitted, just ceramic fuses. I had one fitted to ours quite some years ago, but don't know what the previous neighbours did or whether the current ones have one fitted either, but will ask them. I fitted a solar panel security light for them a couple of days ago when I noticed the switches. Good neighbours and we do each other favours (they keep an eye on our place when we go away) so a win win situation for all of us.
Can't afford to lose them so will follow those things up, irrespective of any benefits, hate to see anything happen to them.
Its all good Vic41. Neighbours are important and keeping sweet is also important. As stated earlier if the wiring is ELV (12Volts) then its fine, however I would get the silastic out around the box.
Electricity can be a nasty thing to play with, so be careful, our last home was built in the late 60s and had ceramic fuses, one of the first jobs a mate and I did was fully replace the fuse box with an up to date switch box, RCDs and circuit breakers. Cost a bit bit well worth it. You can get a RCD fitted for around $200 ( at least thats what I use to charge).
You are a good neighbour taking care like this mate, Im a bit of a pedantic grumpy old fart so please forgive my rants (goes with the territory)
Take care
PhilC
Thanks Phil,
Had a talk with them this morning, yes the had an RCD fitted so all good.
The wires coming that appear to be coming out of the wall are actually only pushed in between the brick top and eaves fibreboard, they are for fair lights working on 12 volts, the down one leads to the control box (I couldn't see where that was or where it plugged in etc.).
We already had our RCD fitted so won't have to worry about that.
Regards my earlier comment on a bare wire showing on my electric shaver (cord since tossed out) how would that effect someone who touched it while live (turned on a the power point) would the RCD save their life or could the initial shock before it tripped out still affect them?
Vic, theoretically the RCD should pop after or before 30mS and make you safe, you will get a boot off the wire if it is live, if the RCD doesnt function as advertised (some do) you will be electrocuted.
When we studied the effects of electrocution, it seems each shock "cooks" a part of the body, the more shocks you get in life, the more progressive damage it can cause, I have had 3 major "boots" in my life and dont want any more, if it is across your heart (one hand to the other) it can cause ventricular fibrillation and you will die unless CPR or a lifepack is used.
Quick story
My Father in law (rest him) had fixed the lead to a very old jug with electricians tape he flogged from my tool box, little strands of bare wire pocked out of the tape all along the length of the lead. When I saw this highly dangerous thing I chopped it into small bits so he wouldnt do it again (he went of his nut at me)
My wife and I then went out and bought him a new kettle that day.
Moral of this story
Dont mess with Father in laws or electricity..
Safe travels
Thanks Phil, I got hit by lightning once, knocked me a over t but I survived.
Other than getting a shock from the odd battery and once peeing on an electric fence (ouch, that hurt) have been pretty lucky.
I do have a heart condition (tachycardia) so have to watch things that make your heart race which is why I don't read black label Playboy magazines
Love ya work Vic41. Take it easy and look after yourself. Im glad I only have osteoarthritis at least I can hobble, and a bad day wont kill me.
Thats gotta hurt (peeing on an electric fence). I will try to avoid that in the future, thanks for the heads up
As for lightning:
We were playing golf one wild and woolly day, didnt hear the cancel siren and merrily made our way down the 11th fairway. At the dogleg was a tall very old gum tree. We were on our second shot about 20 feet from the tree and BOOM!!! big bolt belted the tree and split it (oh the smell on ozone on a winters morning), well you have never seem 4 guys run so close to the ground so fast. Didnt give a damn about golf balls just got us and our buggy as low as we could. Must have looked hilarious.
Frankly I love lightning so much power and energy in a small area.
Cheers mate
-- Edited by Phil C on Wednesday 23rd of July 2014 12:06:29 PM
Yeh, no fun getting old Phil, I would list my conditions but if I did someone might decide to put me away (physical and mental) LOL.
Just be aware RCDs are usually connected to power circuits ? Don't take anything for granted and don't rely on them !
Good breakers prevent fire hazard more as RCDs don't read load or trip if short is between active and neutral ..
Yes it can be squirted with a hose . But so can any power point!
Thanks AK, boy you were lucky with your shock, wonder you weren't killed.
When I got hit by lightning (lightning ball) I was paralysed and couldn't speak, feeling gradually returned but arm which was holding a field telephone (cabled) took about half an hour before I could move it. I was sitting on a chair and the shock knocked me over backwards breaking the wooden slats on the back of the chair where I hit the ground.
Bugger that Mate, hope you keep safe then!
That's a comforting thought !! Think I'll stop shaving
Nah, rather not shave at all than use one of those or a blade razor.....I've got a rechargeable so will use that instead!