I have recently completed an electrical usage study on our caravan, results are thought provoking (if you are a geek like me
12V DC stuff
All lighting, TV, radio, solar panels, water pump, inverter, fans, LED lighting, 12V outlets.
Gas stuff
Stove/oven, HWS, fridge, BBQ
240V AC stuff
Aircon, battery charger, HWS, fridge, microwave, xbox (thats it.. argument over), coffee machine (settled now, done and dusted), various battery chargers (eg dyson vac etc.)
When I faced the reality of no 240V during a recent blackout due to my aircon tripping the RCD (36 hours) I discovered that my batteries can keep the electric blankets going via the inverter, the phones, ipad/pod etc can be charged up on 12V outlets and the gas can run the fridge and HWS. TV was no issue as it is 12V. In reality the only thing I missed was my morning espresso (yuppy) which I eventually trusted to my inverter (it did OK). I have installed a number of 12V 5A outlets throughout the van, very useful in times like this.
Conclusion
I believe that I can do without 240V for a week or so. There is enough in our batteries to run the inverter for electric blankets, and morning heart starter (espresso). The hot water and fridge run on gas, and the batteries are charged by solar or the generator on a cloudy day. The aircon in this van is noisy and causes RCD to trip out if the van is not back end down (solved with isolator switch in the aircon circuit). The xbox is vital but can live without for a small time, coffee is a life saver so it gets priority on the inverter. Other than that I believe we can live on 12V.
Fuel cells
This is the way of the future. I was reading about a device that Harvey Norman sell I think its called "blue cell" or the like. This beast runs on gas (butane or LPG not 100% sure) produces 10KV of 240V power per day, and hot water as a by product. WOW
The price for a unit in the average home is around $40,000 installed
I would be keen to hear what others think of this.
Safe travels
AHHA.. the fuel cell Im thinking about is called bluegen, interesting reading. BTW thanks for the comments, its good to see some folks are interested in leaving the caravan parks as I am.
-- Edited by Phil C on Saturday 5th of July 2014 05:57:44 PM
Is a good place to get an overview of these domestic fuel cells.
Another good idea from this forum.....
Thanks Phil
Big Gorilla said
12:13 PM Jul 5, 2014
I agree with most of what you are saying with a few minor exceptions. Provided you have sufficient solar power, 240 volts is not a necessity. I have 240 watts solar and 2 x 6 volt deep cycle batteries 225 amp/hours each. My refrigerator is 12 volt. I have all the 12 volt stuff you nominated. My 240 volt stuff is an aircon, microwave, battery charger and one 20 watt fluor. light. I use 240 volt in a Caravan Park about every 10 to 14 days. (Clothes washing day ! ) Out comes the toaster, iron, coffee maker, and of course the battery charger is on, but not really required. I don't need a generator.
I'm a coffee addict, and I use a metal perculator on gas stove for this purpose. A 300 watt inverter is ideal for laptop and phone charger.
Plendo said
12:19 PM Jul 5, 2014
Hi Phil,
You are not suggesting doing without your 240V devices, just powering them from your inverter, thus not needing to plug into a power pole.
That is exacly the concept our van is built around, and to make it work we have made a few changes, like the air conditioner is now a Fujitsu inverter split system, our power store is 200ah 24V Lithium battery, and our power source is 1,200W of light weight solar on the roof.
All the essentials are still 12V, being lights, pumps, fridge, and HWS control.
All the luxuries are 240V, air con, microwave, washing machine, coffee machine, etc.
Plug in items like chargers are all 12V, and we have extra 12v points.
I can not see why you would buy a van with luxuries, then tie yourself to caravan parks.
hotqld said
03:01 PM Jul 5, 2014
On yachts cruising they have been on 12V only combined propane for decades its fairly routine.
We are doing the same bush camping 10 days no generator,
Running 12V, lights, pump, sat TV 4-5 hours / day, 90 watt laptop plus ipad 6 hours a day. CPAP.
Propane = Fridge, hot water and cooking.
400 watt roof mounted 12V solar panels
220 AH 2nd hand standby AGM batteries.
We are just coping with batteries dropping to 30% SOC.
Happens this time of year a bit skinny, summer is OK.
Going to put another panel on the roof = 600watts
Was going to go Li, but have been offered two more standby batteries 100ah 12V @ $70.00 ea so I reckon two of those wil do us on the battery front.
I see a generator for running air conditioning and topping up batteries if the sun dont shine.
240V installations just need a couple power points...to run the fridge and a battery charger..
SnowT said
05:12 PM Jul 5, 2014
Plendo wrote:
Hi Phil,
You are not suggesting doing without your 240V devices, just powering them from your inverter, thus not needing to plug into a power pole.
That is exacly the concept our van is built around, and to make it work we have made a few changes, like the air conditioner is now a Fujitsu inverter split system, our power store is 200ah 24V Lithium battery, and our power source is 1,200W of light weight solar on the roof.
All the essentials are still 12V, being lights, pumps, fridge, and HWS control.
All the luxuries are 240V, air con, microwave, washing machine, coffee machine, etc.
Plug in items like chargers are all 12V, and we have extra 12v points.
I can not see why you would buy a van with luxuries, then tie yourself to caravan parks.
As Plendo has said..
You can build a van so that it does not need to plug into a Caravan Park or a Generator..
- You don't need to have Gas Cooking.. [Gas cooking/fridge means that the Gas system needs to Certified to Comply with regulation.]
You have stated that there is now a Fuel Cell that cost's $40k.. Well a Good Lithium system cost 1/4 of that price.
- A Good system..
1200- 1600w of Solar.
200-300Ah of 24v Lithium Batteries..
Control Gear.. Cabling, Fuses, Fixings..
I think you get the idea..
The main Thing is the Not need to have GAS at all..
Juergen
SnowT said
05:12 PM Jul 5, 2014
Double post
Juergen
-- Edited by SnowT on Sunday 6th of July 2014 12:53:12 AM
oldtrack123 said
11:41 PM Jul 5, 2014
Hi
With over 50YEARs of camping & travelling we have probably connected to mains power on two occassions [At friends places]
Our travels always have been mainly BUSH camping OR National parks
We have never had a need for an inverter.
WE have a had a small honda Battery charging generator[ 15A]since 1968
It would be lucky to have had 100hrs of use
We have had a small 12V Tv,yes it was B&W, from around 1960 .
Dometic 3ways & Engel fridge since 1968
All or requirements were met by gas[2x 9kG] , 200Watts of solar & 200Ahr battery capacity & wood fires
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 5th of July 2014 11:44:43 PM
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:27 AM Jul 6, 2014
We have one of these in our MH in Europe. Bought it second hand to cover the odd occasion when Scotland delivers several days of zero sun in a row, even in summer (just had one....). The MH has a compressor fridge but we don't carry a generator. Nor do we use caravan parks. http://www.efoy-comfort.com/technical-data
It is installed INSIDE the MH, weighs under 8kg, delivers 7.6A of automatic 12V battery charging and makes about the same noise as a compressor fridge. One of the future directions of mobile electric power.
Our OKA does not have power plug-in ability. Solar alone with some occasional help from the alternator.
PeterQ you are an inspiration, When we decided to do the caravan thing and travel around I decided that we would invest in all the bells and whistles. So we have the generator, twin 110AH batteries, solar panel, low wattage induction cooker, inverter etc.
I guess necessity is the mother of invention so a few of these items are vital for the maintenance of my osteoarthritis (eg. electric blanket and heater). I also fear that we are all different and have differing needs when it comes to comfort, safety and what gizmos we play with.
As a young man I did a huge amount of hiking and real bush camping with nothing but a sleeping bag, tent, dehydrated food and a dunny roll. I guess I have softened since leaving the RAAF.
Interesting about how other people camp, there were times when sitting on a log was grand, now days its the camp chair.
Enjoy life PeterQ it sounds like you are.
Safe travels
Dunmowin said
05:09 PM Jul 7, 2014
this my Bellman coffee machine, makes espresso for three, six or nine cups. Also steams/froths the milk for cappuccino. Can be used on gas flame, on open fire, or electric hot plate. I only use on gas flame. Solves my coffee fixation.
-- Edited by Dunmowin on Monday 7th of July 2014 05:10:31 PM
Dunmowin, I picked up one exactly the same except it's branded Breville and is attached to an electric base, from a garage sale for $5.00 a few years ago.. it's very old looking but still works quite well. Maybe I can separate mine from the base and use it on flame too.
Dunmowin said
09:40 PM Jul 7, 2014
Here is the end product,not the buns, just the coffee, the buns came out of our bread machine...
Thanks guys, Im up for one of those coffee machines.
Safe travels
beiffe said
09:00 PM Jul 8, 2014
Well I am the opposite as I only have a 12v fan over the bed and a 12v car radio and the rest of my appliances are 240v .
I have no gas on board except for a small camp stove for when I need a second pot when cooking.
I bush camp predominantly but do spend time at friends houses and at volunteering camps but don't need power to survive and don't use caravan parks.
It is possible to operate most appliances from 240v and good batteries and live a good life on the road full time, it only depends on your available battery power and your inverter.
It is up to the individual the life style they wish to pursue on the road.
Some delight in using next to no power by denying the basics for a comfortable life while others want to have the luxuries to enjoy our lives.
So yes you can survive with no 240v and yes you can survive with no gas the choice is yours the same as using caravan parks or bush camps.
Regards
Brian
Phil C said
04:12 PM Jul 9, 2014
beiffe wrote:
Well I am the opposite as I only have a 12v fan over the bed and a 12v car radio and the rest of my appliances are 240v . I have no gas on board except for a small camp stove for when I need a second pot when cooking. I bush camp predominantly but do spend time at friends houses and at volunteering camps but don't need power to survive and don't use caravan parks. It is possible to operate most appliances from 240v and good batteries and live a good life on the road full time, it only depends on your available battery power and your inverter. It is up to the individual the life style they wish to pursue on the road. Some delight in using next to no power by denying the basics for a comfortable life while others want to have the luxuries to enjoy our lives. So yes you can survive with no 240v and yes you can survive with no gas the choice is yours the same as using caravan parks or bush camps.
Regards Brian
Hi Brian
I completely agree with you. Im of the opinion that we live a great and comfortable life, if we need the inverter we use it, same applies to any other appliance/service we have on board.
I guess it all comes down to who we are and how we expect to live in the "wilds", I care to think we are glamping rather than just surviving.
This will open a can of worms Im sure.
I have recently completed an electrical usage study on our caravan, results are thought provoking (if you are a geek like me
12V DC stuff
All lighting, TV, radio, solar panels, water pump, inverter, fans, LED lighting, 12V outlets.
Gas stuff
Stove/oven, HWS, fridge, BBQ
240V AC stuff
Aircon, battery charger, HWS, fridge, microwave, xbox (thats it.. argument over), coffee machine (settled now, done and dusted), various battery chargers (eg dyson vac etc.)
When I faced the reality of no 240V during a recent blackout due to my aircon tripping the RCD (36 hours) I discovered that my batteries can keep the electric blankets going via the inverter, the phones, ipad/pod etc can be charged up on 12V outlets and the gas can run the fridge and HWS. TV was no issue as it is 12V. In reality the only thing I missed was my morning espresso (yuppy) which I eventually trusted to my inverter (it did OK). I have installed a number of 12V 5A outlets throughout the van, very useful in times like this.
Conclusion
I believe that I can do without 240V for a week or so. There is enough in our batteries to run the inverter for electric blankets, and morning heart starter (espresso). The hot water and fridge run on gas, and the batteries are charged by solar or the generator on a cloudy day. The aircon in this van is noisy and causes RCD to trip out if the van is not back end down (solved with isolator switch in the aircon circuit). The xbox is vital but can live without for a small time, coffee is a life saver so it gets priority on the inverter. Other than that I believe we can live on 12V.
Fuel cells
This is the way of the future. I was reading about a device that Harvey Norman sell I think its called "blue cell" or the like. This beast runs on gas (butane or LPG not 100% sure) produces 10KV of 240V power per day, and hot water as a by product. WOW
The price for a unit in the average home is around $40,000 installed
I would be keen to hear what others think of this.
Safe travels
AHHA.. the fuel cell Im thinking about is called bluegen, interesting reading. BTW thanks for the comments, its good to see some folks are interested in leaving the caravan parks as I am.
-- Edited by Phil C on Saturday 5th of July 2014 05:57:44 PM
Is a good place to get an overview of these domestic fuel cells.
Another good idea from this forum.....
Thanks Phil
I agree with most of what you are saying with a few minor exceptions. Provided you have sufficient solar power, 240 volts is not a necessity. I have 240 watts solar and 2 x 6 volt deep cycle batteries 225 amp/hours each. My refrigerator is 12 volt. I have all the 12 volt stuff you nominated. My 240 volt stuff is an aircon, microwave, battery charger and one 20 watt fluor. light. I use 240 volt in a Caravan Park about every 10 to 14 days. (Clothes washing day ! ) Out comes the toaster, iron, coffee maker, and of course the battery charger is on, but not really required. I don't need a generator.
I'm a coffee addict, and I use a metal perculator on gas stove for this purpose. A 300 watt inverter is ideal for laptop and phone charger.
Hi Phil,
You are not suggesting doing without your 240V devices, just powering them from your inverter, thus not needing to plug into a power pole.
That is exacly the concept our van is built around, and to make it work we have made a few changes, like the air conditioner is now a Fujitsu inverter split system, our power store is 200ah 24V Lithium battery, and our power source is 1,200W of light weight solar on the roof.
All the essentials are still 12V, being lights, pumps, fridge, and HWS control.
All the luxuries are 240V, air con, microwave, washing machine, coffee machine, etc.
Plug in items like chargers are all 12V, and we have extra 12v points.
I can not see why you would buy a van with luxuries, then tie yourself to caravan parks.
We are doing the same bush camping 10 days no generator,
Running 12V, lights, pump, sat TV 4-5 hours / day, 90 watt laptop plus ipad 6 hours a day. CPAP.
Propane = Fridge, hot water and cooking.
400 watt roof mounted 12V solar panels
220 AH 2nd hand standby AGM batteries.
We are just coping with batteries dropping to 30% SOC.
Happens this time of year a bit skinny, summer is OK.
Going to put another panel on the roof = 600watts
Was going to go Li, but have been offered two more standby batteries 100ah 12V @ $70.00 ea so I reckon two of those wil do us on the battery front.
I see a generator for running air conditioning and topping up batteries if the sun dont shine.
240V installations just need a couple power points...to run the fridge and a battery charger..
As Plendo has said..
You can build a van so that it does not need to plug into a Caravan Park or a Generator..
- You don't need to have Gas Cooking.. [Gas cooking/fridge means that the Gas system needs to Certified to Comply with regulation.]
You have stated that there is now a Fuel Cell that cost's $40k.. Well a Good Lithium system cost 1/4 of that price.
- A Good system..
1200- 1600w of Solar.
200-300Ah of 24v Lithium Batteries..
Control Gear.. Cabling, Fuses, Fixings..
I think you get the idea..
The main Thing is the Not need to have GAS at all..
Juergen
Double post
Juergen
-- Edited by SnowT on Sunday 6th of July 2014 12:53:12 AM
Hi
With over 50YEARs of camping & travelling we have probably connected to mains power on two occassions [At friends places]
Our travels always have been mainly BUSH camping OR National parks
We have never had a need for an inverter.
WE have a had a small honda Battery charging generator[ 15A]since 1968
It would be lucky to have had 100hrs of use
We have had a small 12V Tv,yes it was B&W, from around 1960 .
Dometic 3ways & Engel fridge since 1968
All or requirements were met by gas[2x 9kG] , 200Watts of solar & 200Ahr battery capacity & wood fires
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 5th of July 2014 11:44:43 PM
We have one of these in our MH in Europe.
Bought it second hand to cover the odd occasion when Scotland delivers several days of zero sun in a row, even in summer (just had one....).
The MH has a compressor fridge but we don't carry a generator. Nor do we use caravan parks.
http://www.efoy-comfort.com/technical-data
It is installed INSIDE the MH, weighs under 8kg, delivers 7.6A of automatic 12V battery charging and makes about the same noise as a compressor fridge.
One of the future directions of mobile electric power.
Our OKA does not have power plug-in ability. Solar alone with some occasional help from the alternator.
Cheers,
Peter
PeterQ you are an inspiration, When we decided to do the caravan thing and travel around I decided that we would invest in all the bells and whistles. So we have the generator, twin 110AH batteries, solar panel, low wattage induction cooker, inverter etc.
I guess necessity is the mother of invention so a few of these items are vital for the maintenance of my osteoarthritis (eg. electric blanket and heater). I also fear that we are all different and have differing needs when it comes to comfort, safety and what gizmos we play with.
As a young man I did a huge amount of hiking and real bush camping with nothing but a sleeping bag, tent, dehydrated food and a dunny roll. I guess I have softened since leaving the RAAF.
Interesting about how other people camp, there were times when sitting on a log was grand, now days its the camp chair.
Enjoy life PeterQ it sounds like you are.
Safe travels
this my Bellman coffee machine, makes espresso for three, six or nine cups. Also steams/froths the milk for cappuccino. Can be used on gas flame, on open fire, or electric hot plate. I only use on gas flame. Solves my coffee fixation.
-- Edited by Dunmowin on Monday 7th of July 2014 05:10:31 PM
Here is the end product,not the buns, just the coffee, the buns came out of our bread machine...
Safe travels
I have no gas on board except for a small camp stove for when I need a second pot when cooking.
I bush camp predominantly but do spend time at friends houses and at volunteering camps but don't need power to survive and don't use caravan parks.
It is possible to operate most appliances from 240v and good batteries and live a good life on the road full time, it only depends on your available battery power and your inverter.
It is up to the individual the life style they wish to pursue on the road.
Some delight in using next to no power by denying the basics for a comfortable life while others want to have the luxuries to enjoy our lives.
So yes you can survive with no 240v and yes you can survive with no gas the choice is yours the same as using caravan parks or bush camps.
Regards
Brian
Hi Brian
I completely agree with you. Im of the opinion that we live a great and comfortable life, if we need the inverter we use it, same applies to any other appliance/service we have on board.
I guess it all comes down to who we are and how we expect to live in the "wilds", I care to think we are glamping rather than just surviving.
Safe travels