A number of consumers have recently been caught out by buying gas-fuelled appliances from the internet without fully understanding the suitability of the appliance for its intended use.
In a recent case, if not for the diligence of the gasfitter contracted to undertake the installation, the result would have been a non-compliant gas system and possible safety issues.
This is an approved gas hot water unit. However closer scrutiny of the Approving Authority Badge identifies the appliance is approved under AS2658-2008 LP Gas Portable and mobile appliances.
This means it is only suitable for portable applications, with its own LPG cylinder and BBQ style regulator. It is not suitable for installation and connection to a fixed gas system
[end quote}
PeterQ.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 14th of May 2014 09:16:46 PM
bill12 said
06:11 AM May 15, 2014
So you are saying that its legal to have the system outside and connected to a gas bottle? What's wrong with that.I have one , and its worked great for about 12 months. Bill
oldbobsbus said
06:51 AM May 15, 2014
PeterQ, Without having the full info available or the specs of the unit or the unit to look at it would make it difficult for anyone without experience to understand the problem with it...
I think when making threads like this you need to have the full facts available and provide them to everyone so they can understand the reason for the appliance not meeting the standard. Otherwise it could be said you are scaremongering and worrying everyone with an instantaneous gas HWS. You and I know that most of this type of HWS DO comply with the standard..
Bill, are you sure your unit is one of this particular brand or just one similar that may well comply with all the requirements of the Aust Standard.
bill12 said
07:57 AM May 15, 2014
It looks the same.The one I have is a Rio Grand, and says it passes Aust Standards. Piezo Ignition,and Just attatch a gas bottle and water , andit turns on as you turn the tap, and you have hot water, which you can set the temp. No pilot light.I find it works well. Bill
2weis said
08:21 AM May 15, 2014
the way i understand the post it is legal to use it as a freestanding unit but not for installation or fitting into mobile structure
i hope im right ???
brian
oldbobsbus said
09:31 AM May 15, 2014
2weis wrote:
the way i understand the post it is legal to use it as a freestanding unit but not for installation or fitting into mobile structure i hope im right ??? brian
Yep thats about it Brian..
native pepper said
12:06 PM May 15, 2014
bill12 wrote:
So you are saying that its legal to have the system outside and connected to a gas bottle? What's wrong with that.I have one , and its worked great for about 12 months. Bill
G'day Bill, read this thread last night, so asked our local gas fitter about it and sent him a link to the thread, as our house hot water heater has this standard. After he had a good laugh at the misrepresentation of the standard (his words), he explained the difference this morning.
Simply put for all to understand, AS2658 2008 is designed to cover gas heating systems which don't have a dedicated flue and are classed as portable outdoor appliances, they are as safe as any gas heater used outside under the right conditions. Theoretically you could install one of these on the outside of any van or MH in a box you can open to the air when in use and stopped, according to the gas fitter.
Ours is outside the house in a metal box, open bottom and heavily vented top, the gas is connected directly to our LPG and methane storage tanks, using a standard regulator.
So if you have one of these inside with a flue, it's fine but flue less one must be outside, and are considered portable. We also carry one of those portable Companion gas hot water heaters in our bus for emergencies, yet to use it and doubt ever will. We use an electric 12/240v hot water heater, bus heat exchanger and solar bags on the road. Currently have a project going which if it can be refined, will give us solar hot water when travelling and folds away.
-- Edited by native pepper on Thursday 15th of May 2014 12:09:49 PM
Tim thetruckie said
12:24 PM May 15, 2014
Go back and fully read the original post fully .
bill12 said
12:27 PM May 15, 2014
The water goes to the system and then to a mixer for the shower and sink.The flue goes up to the tin roof on the vetandah, Just add gas, and you have hot water on demand. Very simple, and safe.I think it cost $320 delivered. Bill
Bill I can only assume that you did this installation yourself.. Because I would hope that NO licenced LP Gasfitter would do such illegal work..
I just hope you never need to make an insurance claim because as you know insurance companies look for any excuse to reject a claim and if they saw that you would miss out sadly.
You would need to get a LPGasfitter to redo the job properly and issue a compliance certificate for it and attach a compliance plate to it..
oldtrack123 said
01:12 PM May 15, 2014
bill12 wrote:
So you are saying that its legal to have the system outside and connected to a gas bottle? What's wrong with that.I have one , and its worked great for about 12 months. Bill
HI Bill
For units that are approved as portable, THAT is the only way they SHALL be used
PeterQ
Own bottle & regulator, using the short supplied hose
bill12 said
01:12 PM May 15, 2014
I take it you are a licenced gas fitter as the same plumber fitted that and the stove,and bothe work well and have done since they were installed. I have the certificate.There seems to be a lot of "experts" around. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 01:16:03 PM
oldtrack123 said
01:17 PM May 15, 2014
oldbobsbus wrote:
PeterQ, Without having the full info available or the specs of the unit or the unit to look at it would make it difficult for anyone without experience to understand the problem with it...
I think when making threads like this you need to have the full facts available and provide them to everyone so they can understand the reason for the appliance not meeting the standard. Otherwise it could be said you are scaremongering and worrying everyone with an instantaneous gas HWS. You and I know that most of this type of HWS DO comply with the standard..
Bill, are you sure your unit is one of this particular brand or just one similar that may well comply with all the requirements of the Aust Standard.
HI Bob
The message does not apply to any particular brand .
THe product can be /are fully approved to AS 2658 as "Portable gas HWS'
It applies to the misuse of any "approved" portable HWS
Just as use not in accordance with the Standard applies to ELectrics
PeterQ
oldtrack123 said
01:24 PM May 15, 2014
Tim thetruckie wrote:
Go back and fully read the original post fully .
HI Tim
Yes perhaps then NP's mate might understand .
But then again there are gas fitters &GAS FITTERStters
just as there are electrician& ELECTRICIANS
even truck drivers & TRUCH DRIVERS
Then of course there are the noitalls
PeterQ
Spook said
01:31 PM May 15, 2014
bill12 wrote:
I take it you are a licenced gas fitter as the same plumber fitted that and the stove,and bothe work well and have done since they were installed. I have the certificate.There seems to be a lot of "experts" around. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 01:16:03 PM
I'm a licenced AND competent gas fitter and I'm going to break it to you gently. That installation is non compliant and the workmanship is about as shoddy as I've seen, and I've come across some doozies!
oldbobsbus said
01:35 PM May 15, 2014
bill12 wrote:
I take it you are a licenced gas fitter as the same plumber fitted that and the stove,and bothe work well and have done since they were installed. I have the certificate.There seems to be a lot of "experts" around. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 01:16:03 PM
Bill, Yes I am a Licenced LPGasfitter and I don't for one minute doubt that your appliances work..
That HWS installation doesn't comply with the code on several points and as I said IF you had any need to make an insurance claim regardless of what the claim was over and the assessor saw that installation you could be introuble with your claim..
Honestly your installation doesn't matter to me one iota, I am only offering advice the matter..
native pepper said
03:04 PM May 15, 2014
oldtrack123 wrote:
Tim thetruckie wrote:
Go back and fully read the original post fully .
HI Tim
Yes perhaps then NP's mate might understand .
But then again there are gas fitters &GAS FITTERStters
just as there are electrician& ELECTRICIANS
even truck drivers & TRUCH DRIVERS
Then of course there are the noitalls
PeterQ
The qualified people we deal with, live in the real world and not some urban self centered fantasy. Both of us read the OP, the OP claims it is a quote, but has failed to provide a link to verify the story. Having also read through the AS2658 2008 standard, will stick with what I have posted. These types of gas heaters are not designed for internal non flue use, hence the portable standard. Would be interested to know what the big safety issues are if you use one of these connected to something. But expect you just lay them on the ground and use them that way, as thats what the supposed dinosaur experts seem to be demanding you do. If they are unsafe for use, why sell them or have a standard for use and what's the difference between connecting them to an outside wall and gas bottle using a regulator, or laying them on the ground and doing the same. If you can't connect them to anything and use them, what do you do with them.
Again we see the same ones who always do what they can to run others down and push their irrational and primitive approach to life and technology. They don't give advice, just egocentrically push themselves as being superior on just about every subject and thread. When the facts are the opposite. Luckily we steer well clear of the tourist trail, so never have to put up with such rubbish.
It's probably much better to say nothing and leave them to their own egocentricity. Anything new, different or not within their extremely limited lack of knowledge, they instantly jump on the poster. Rather pathetic and shows it's not worthwhile providing any information for the general readers, as only the clique can be right. Which means many will miss out on getting different approaches and methods for providing better, safer and cheaper travel. Seems all the knowledge gained over more than 50 years of travelling, is nothing compared to part time travelling technological dinosaurs. No different to computer or power threads, where they denounce linux and lifepo4 batteries, yet not one of them have a clue about, or had used them. Same with most threads, and good evidence as to their veracity.
Our house was inspected for insurance, as was our bus, when we changed companies late last year. They both passed, the standards on the water heater and compliance plates were noted by the assessor, as was our rather unorthodox energy, heating and methane systems, he even took photo's. After the extreme fires we had last year, they are making sure everyone complies with hazard reductions and all other safety issues. By doing these inspections and finding them satisfactory, we now have greatly reduced premiums. I also rang the insurer today after reading the replies on this thread, was assured by the insurer after they checked through the papers, our water heater complies with the insurance standard and is fine.
oldbobsbus said
03:20 PM May 15, 2014
NP this thread or advice isn't about you or any of your gear..
The advice offered was in relation to Bills HWS ..
Its about time you stopped attacking those that know the regulations and offer the correct advice..
oldtrack123 said
03:39 PM May 15, 2014
native pepper wrote:
]1
]Qualified people we deal with, live in the real world and not some urban self centered fantasy. Both of us read the OP, the OP claims it is a quote, but has failed to provide a link to verify the story. Having also read through the AS2658 2008 standard, will stick with what I have posted. These types of gas heaters are not designed for internal non flue use, hence the portable standard. Would be interested to know what the big safety issues are if you use one of these connected to something. But expect you just lay them on the ground and use them that way, as thats what the supposed dinosaur experts seem to be demanding you do. If they are unsafe for use, why sell them or have a standard for use and what's the difference between connecting them to an outside wall and gas bottle using a regulator, or laying them on the ground and doing the same. If you can't connect them to anything and use them, what do you do with them.
[2]Again we see the same ones who always do what they can to run others down and push their irrational and primitive approach to life and technology. They don't give advice, just egocentrically push themselves as being superior on just about every
]subject and thread. When the facts are the opposite. Luckily we steer well clear of the tourist trail, so never have to put up with such rubbish.
[3]It's probably much better to say nothing and leave them to their own egocentricity. Anything new, different or not within their extremely limited lack of knowledge, they instantly jump on the poster. Rather pathetic and shows it's not worthwhile providing any information for the general readers, as only the clique can be right. Which means many will miss out on getting different approaches and methods for providing better, safer and cheaper travel. Seems all the knowledge gained over more than 50 years of travelling, is nothing compared to part time travelling technological dinosaurs. No different to computer or power threads, where they denounce linux and lifepo4 batteries, yet not one of them have a clue about, or had used them. Same with most threads, and good evidence as to their veracity.
Our house was inspected for insurance, as was our bus, when we changed companies late last year. They both passed, the standards on the water heater and compliance plates were noted by the assessor, as was our rather unorthodox energy, heating and methane systems, he even took photo's. After the extreme fires we had last year, they are making sure everyone complies with hazard reductions and all other safety issues. By doing these inspections and finding them satisfactory, we now have greatly reduced premiums. I also rang the insurer today after reading the replies on this thread, was assured by the insurer after they checked through the papers, our water heater complies with the insurance standard and is fine.
Hi
Here we go again with the man who know????? everything !!
First why cannot your mate do his own search of th eQld Gas Regualtors site Or even better get himself on themailing list
He then just might know a little about what is going off rather than just you frothing at the mouth
[1]
I did not post the link, but THAt is a direct copy & paste!!
! You seem to be an expert at accusing others of posting false
Yet the most of what you post is utter BULL!!nfo
Yes, THEY are only approved for "portable use THAT is the whole purpose of the quote to let people KNOW they cannot be permanently connected especially to an existing sytem
with other appliences so what does that long winded statementof yours haveto add ??'/;
Your quote" Would be interested to know what the big safety issues are if you use one of these connected to something. But expect you just lay them on the ground and use them that way, as thats what the supposed dinosaur experts seem to be demanding you do. If they are unsafe for use, why sell them or have a standard for use and what's the difference between connecting them to an outside wall and gas bottle using a regulator, or laying them on the ground and doing the same. If you can't connect them to anything and use them, what do you do with them"
Obviously you & possibly your mateehave real problem if that crap is typical
It is so stupid I doubt anyone would even attempt to explain .
[2] more irrelevant ravings[
[3] THAt coming from you is about the greatest joke ever, iF it was not so sad to see tha tis how you think.
But again typical
Goodbye ,GOODBYE
Rave all you like you are too wrapped up with yourself to even bother with!!
Again, I will let other judge your worth on this or any forum,but you are a dangerous person, whose advice should be taken with great care & not before cross checking with people who do know what they are talking about
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 03:43:32 PM
native pepper said
04:54 PM May 15, 2014
oldtrack123 wrote:
native pepper wrote:
]1
]Qualified people we deal with, live in the real world and not some urban self centered fantasy. Both of us read the OP, the OP claims it is a quote, but has failed to provide a link to verify the story. Having also read through the AS2658 2008 standard, will stick with what I have posted. These types of gas heaters are not designed for internal non flue use, hence the portable standard. Would be interested to know what the big safety issues are if you use one of these connected to something. But expect you just lay them on the ground and use them that way, as thats what the supposed dinosaur experts seem to be demanding you do. If they are unsafe for use, why sell them or have a standard for use and what's the difference between connecting them to an outside wall and gas bottle using a regulator, or laying them on the ground and doing the same. If you can't connect them to anything and use them, what do you do with them.
[2]Again we see the same ones who always do what they can to run others down and push their irrational and primitive approach to life and technology. They don't give advice, just egocentrically push themselves as being superior on just about every
]subject and thread. When the facts are the opposite. Luckily we steer well clear of the tourist trail, so never have to put up with such rubbish.
[3]It's probably much better to say nothing and leave them to their own egocentricity. Anything new, different or not within their extremely limited lack of knowledge, they instantly jump on the poster. Rather pathetic and shows it's not worthwhile providing any information for the general readers, as only the clique can be right. Which means many will miss out on getting different approaches and methods for providing better, safer and cheaper travel. Seems all the knowledge gained over more than 50 years of travelling, is nothing compared to part time travelling technological dinosaurs. No different to computer or power threads, where they denounce linux and lifepo4 batteries, yet not one of them have a clue about, or had used them. Same with most threads, and good evidence as to their veracity.
Our house was inspected for insurance, as was our bus, when we changed companies late last year. They both passed, the standards on the water heater and compliance plates were noted by the assessor, as was our rather unorthodox energy, heating and methane systems, he even took photo's. After the extreme fires we had last year, they are making sure everyone complies with hazard reductions and all other safety issues. By doing these inspections and finding them satisfactory, we now have greatly reduced premiums. I also rang the insurer today after reading the replies on this thread, was assured by the insurer after they checked through the papers, our water heater complies with the insurance standard and is fine.
Hi
Here we go again with the man who know????? everything !!
First why cannot your mate do his own search of th eQld Gas Regualtors site Or even better get himself on themailing list
He then just might know a little about what is going off rather than just you frothing at the mouth
[1]
I did not post the link, but THAt is a direct copy & paste!!
! You seem to be an expert at accusing others of posting false
Yet the most of what you post is utter BULL!!nfo
Yes, THEY are only approved for "portable use THAT is the whole purpose of the quote to let people KNOW they cannot be permanently connected especially to an existing sytem
with other appliences so what does that long winded statementof yours haveto add ??'/;
Your quote" Would be interested to know what the big safety issues are if you use one of these connected to something. But expect you just lay them on the ground and use them that way, as thats what the supposed dinosaur experts seem to be demanding you do. If they are unsafe for use, why sell them or have a standard for use and what's the difference between connecting them to an outside wall and gas bottle using a regulator, or laying them on the ground and doing the same. If you can't connect them to anything and use them, what do you do with them"
Obviously you & possibly your mateehave real problem if that crap is typical
It is so stupid I doubt anyone would even attempt to explain .
[2] more irrelevant ravings[
[3] THAt coming from you is about the greatest joke ever, iF it was not so sad to see tha tis how you think.
But again typical
Goodbye ,GOODBYE
Rave all you like you are too wrapped up with yourself to even bother with!!
Again, I will let other judge your worth on this or any forum,but you are a dangerous person, whose advice should be taken with great care & not before cross checking with people who do know what they are talking about
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 03:43:32 PM
Thanks you for supporting my position, your post is an exact example of what I've spoken of, anyone who who reads it will see that. Personal attacks, insults, slander, "a dangerous person", what I post is bull**** and claiming I'm a know all.
I don't post on every thread, only on those I know about. Nor do I ever claim to know anything, other than what I've learnt through life experience. You're the one claiming you know everything and no one else has the right to an opinion. Dangerous person, you don't even know me or anything about me other that what I've posted. A dangerous person is one who restricts discussion, attacks others with insults and accusations bordering on criminal intent.
What you and your cronies are trying to do is stop any form of discussion which you don't accept or believe is wrong. You can't civilly inform people of what you believe or claim and leave it at that, you have to force a stop to any discussion you disagree with. So you use your holier than thou attitude and attack, then you lot turn round and accuse others of attacking and hijacking a thread, when there is probably not one threat on this or virtually any forum, which doesn't go off track, some times completely. Plus it's the same few who do this to many here, it wouldn't take a psychologist long to work out the reasons for that weird approach.
The world moves on by innovation, experimentation and the dissemination of knowledge, not by demanding discussions can only be done under certain conditions, in an open forum.
Webmaster said
09:13 AM May 16, 2014
Thanks for your input on this everyone. It is obviously a topic that can generate a fair bit of discussion and debate! I hope that people interested in the subject can glean some useful information from the various posts. I am going to close this thread now however as I don't want it to descend into negativity and personal attacks. This is, above all, a friendly forum. Of course, there are going to be disagreements and lively discussions and that is great ... and that will be especially the case on topics like this where it is important that correct information is given out. Nonetheless, it is also very important that we all show each other respect and courtesy. If there is a problem developing with a particular thread, can I request that you please contact me so I can try to get it sorted out. Thanks, everybody.
-- Edited by Webmaster on Friday 16th of May 2014 09:14:44 AM
HI
Extract from Qld GAS newsletter
[Quote]
Online shopping, gasfitters beware!
In a recent case, if not for the diligence of the gasfitter contracted to undertake the installation, the result would have been a non-compliant gas system and possible safety issues.
This is an approved gas hot water unit. However closer scrutiny of the Approving Authority Badge identifies the appliance is approved under AS2658-2008 LP Gas Portable and mobile appliances.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 14th of May 2014 09:16:46 PM
PeterQ, Without having the full info available or the specs of the unit or the unit to look at it would make it difficult for anyone without experience to understand the problem with it...
I think when making threads like this you need to have the full facts available and provide them to everyone so they can understand the reason for the appliance not meeting the standard. Otherwise it could be said you are scaremongering and worrying everyone with an instantaneous gas HWS. You and I know that most of this type of HWS DO comply with the standard..
Bill, are you sure your unit is one of this particular brand or just one similar that may well comply with all the requirements of the Aust Standard.
i hope im right ???
brian
Yep thats about it Brian..
G'day Bill, read this thread last night, so asked our local gas fitter about it and sent him a link to the thread, as our house hot water heater has this standard. After he had a good laugh at the misrepresentation of the standard (his words), he explained the difference this morning.
Simply put for all to understand, AS2658 2008 is designed to cover gas heating systems which don't have a dedicated flue and are classed as portable outdoor appliances, they are as safe as any gas heater used outside under the right conditions. Theoretically you could install one of these on the outside of any van or MH in a box you can open to the air when in use and stopped, according to the gas fitter.
Ours is outside the house in a metal box, open bottom and heavily vented top, the gas is connected directly to our LPG and methane storage tanks, using a standard regulator.
So if you have one of these inside with a flue, it's fine but flue less one must be outside, and are considered portable. We also carry one of those portable Companion gas hot water heaters in our bus for emergencies, yet to use it and doubt ever will. We use an electric 12/240v hot water heater, bus heat exchanger and solar bags on the road. Currently have a project going which if it can be refined, will give us solar hot water when travelling and folds away.
-- Edited by native pepper on Thursday 15th of May 2014 12:09:49 PM
Bill I can only assume that you did this installation yourself.. Because I would hope that NO licenced LP Gasfitter would do such illegal work..
I just hope you never need to make an insurance claim because as you know insurance companies look for any excuse to reject a claim and if they saw that you would miss out sadly.
You would need to get a LPGasfitter to redo the job properly and issue a compliance certificate for it and attach a compliance plate to it..
HI Bill
For units that are approved as portable, THAT is the only way they SHALL be used
PeterQ
Own bottle & regulator, using the short supplied hose
I take it you are a licenced gas fitter as the same plumber fitted that and the stove,and bothe work well and have done since they were installed. I have the certificate.There seems to be a lot of "experts" around. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 01:16:03 PM
HI Bob
The message does not apply to any particular brand .
THe product can be /are fully approved to AS 2658 as "Portable gas HWS'
It applies to the misuse of any "approved" portable HWS
Just as use not in accordance with the Standard applies to ELectrics
PeterQ
HI Tim
Yes perhaps then NP's mate might understand .
But then again there are gas fitters &GAS FITTERStters
just as there are electrician& ELECTRICIANS
even truck drivers & TRUCH DRIVERS
Then of course there are the noitalls
PeterQ
I'm a licenced AND competent gas fitter and I'm going to break it to you gently. That installation is non compliant and the workmanship is about as shoddy as I've seen, and I've come across some doozies!
Bill, Yes I am a Licenced LPGasfitter and I don't for one minute doubt that your appliances work..
That HWS installation doesn't comply with the code on several points and as I said IF you had any need to make an insurance claim regardless of what the claim was over and the assessor saw that installation you could be introuble with your claim..
Honestly your installation doesn't matter to me one iota, I am only offering advice the matter..
The advice offered was in relation to Bills HWS ..
Its about time you stopped attacking those that know the regulations and offer the correct advice..
Hi
Here we go again with the man who know????? everything !!
First why cannot your mate do his own search of th eQld Gas Regualtors site Or even better get himself on themailing list
He then just might know a little about what is going off rather than just you frothing at the mouth
[1]
I did not post the link, but THAt is a direct copy & paste!!
! You seem to be an expert at accusing others of posting false
Yet the most of what you post is utter BULL!!nfo
Yes, THEY are only approved for "portable use THAT is the whole purpose of the quote to let people KNOW they cannot be permanently connected especially to an existing sytem
with other appliences so what does that long winded statementof yours haveto add ??'/;
Your quote" Would be interested to know what the big safety issues are if you use one of these connected to something. But expect you just lay them on the ground and use them that way, as thats what the supposed dinosaur experts seem to be demanding you do. If they are unsafe for use, why sell them or have a standard for use and what's the difference between connecting them to an outside wall and gas bottle using a regulator, or laying them on the ground and doing the same. If you can't connect them to anything and use them, what do you do with them"
Obviously you & possibly your mateehave real problem if that crap is typical
It is so stupid I doubt anyone would even attempt to explain .
[2] more irrelevant ravings[
[3] THAt coming from you is about the greatest joke ever, iF it was not so sad to see tha tis how you think.
But again typical
Goodbye ,GOODBYE
Rave all you like you are too wrapped up with yourself to even bother with!!
Again, I will let other judge your worth on this or any forum,but you are a dangerous person, whose advice should be taken with great care & not before cross checking with people who do know what they are talking about
PeterQ
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 15th of May 2014 03:43:32 PM
Thanks you for supporting my position, your post is an exact example of what I've spoken of, anyone who who reads it will see that. Personal attacks, insults, slander, "a dangerous person", what I post is bull**** and claiming I'm a know all.
I don't post on every thread, only on those I know about. Nor do I ever claim to know anything, other than what I've learnt through life experience. You're the one claiming you know everything and no one else has the right to an opinion. Dangerous person, you don't even know me or anything about me other that what I've posted. A dangerous person is one who restricts discussion, attacks others with insults and accusations bordering on criminal intent.
What you and your cronies are trying to do is stop any form of discussion which you don't accept or believe is wrong. You can't civilly inform people of what you believe or claim and leave it at that, you have to force a stop to any discussion you disagree with. So you use your holier than thou attitude and attack, then you lot turn round and accuse others of attacking and hijacking a thread, when there is probably not one threat on this or virtually any forum, which doesn't go off track, some times completely. Plus it's the same few who do this to many here, it wouldn't take a psychologist long to work out the reasons for that weird approach.
The world moves on by innovation, experimentation and the dissemination of knowledge, not by demanding discussions can only be done under certain conditions, in an open forum.
Thanks for your input on this everyone. It is obviously a topic that can generate a fair bit of discussion and debate! I hope that people interested in the subject can glean some useful information from the various posts. I am going to close this thread now however as I don't want it to descend into negativity and personal attacks. This is, above all, a friendly forum. Of course, there are going to be disagreements and lively discussions and that is great ... and that will be especially the case on topics like this where it is important that correct information is given out. Nonetheless, it is also very important that we all show each other respect and courtesy. If there is a problem developing with a particular thread, can I request that you please contact me so I can try to get it sorted out. Thanks, everybody.
-- Edited by Webmaster on Friday 16th of May 2014 09:14:44 AM