Gas heater for indoors/outdoors - thinking caps, please
GaryKelly said
12:07 PM May 6, 2014
G'day smartie pants. We have a number of clever, technically minded GNs on this forum who may think there's potential in this idea for a safe indoor gas heater. My parents had a Wunderheat fireplace at home. It was an enclosed firebox set into a regular fireplace with a chimney. The heat of the firebox sucked fresh air from under the house, which circulated over the box to become hot before it was directed through an adjustable vent above the firebox and into the room. The smoke from the fire rose up through the chimney as normal and was not mixed with the fresh air.
So, I was thinking if someone could design a flexible metal pipe with insect mesh over both ends, it could be positioned over a flame from a gas bottle placed outside the caravan, and then routed through an opening in the van, the result would be CO outside and warm fresh air inside. Yeah? Not sure how practical the idea is but maybe it's worth thinking about.
The great thing about the Wunderheat was that it not only produced heat but also fresh air, which meant that the room needed no ventilation. Actually, the thing worked so efficiently that, after a while, we had to open a window or door so let some of the heat out hehe.
native pepper said
01:09 PM May 6, 2014
You could use flexible exhaust pipe, personally would never have gas heater inside anywhere. Nor even that keen on cooking with gas, but as we are always stopped it's not a problem as the windows and vents are open. Over the years tried different types of heating, even stayed in a van with a diesel heater and after one night, slept outside. The noise and smell wafting back inside from the wind was enough to drive me outside.
The heat given out by our little gas bottle wood heater, keeps the bus hot all night with no fumes and all the heat is used as the flue travels across the bus to the outside.
Dougwe said
02:01 PM May 6, 2014
Any pics of that gas wood heater please NP?
bill12 said
02:06 PM May 6, 2014
Its called a venture system. We used something similar to suck air into engine rooms on The big trawlers I used to work on. As the air around the exhaust heats up , it rises , moving in new air. A good way to use waste heat. Bill
native pepper said
02:49 PM May 6, 2014
Dougwe wrote:
Any pics of that gas wood heater please NP?
It's just a wood heater, no gas. This is today near Devonport, temp outside is 12, inside 29 and wet
What a beauty Native Pepper!...a choofer heater. I'd love one of those in our Avan.
native pepper said
02:57 PM May 6, 2014
bill12 wrote:
Its called a venture system. We used something similar to suck air into engine rooms on The big trawlers I used to work on. As the air around the exhaust heats up , it rises , moving in new air. A good way to use waste heat. Bill
It's a Venturi Bill, we used venturi air lifts when doing underwater construction and salvage work to remove silt etc. They are great for simple technology that works excellently, the top of our little heater is built to utilise the venturi effect. It works no matter what direction the flue is pointing, never get any smoke or fumes from it, except when adding wood. This one was an experiment and now had it for a few years, when we get home next week, will either refine it, or make another which will be more refined and hopefully will slow the combustion down even more, so it will go all night and not require me getting up to refill it in the early hours.
native pepper said
03:21 PM May 6, 2014
hako wrote:
What a beauty Native Pepper!...a choofer heater. I'd love one of those in our Avan.
G'day Denis, pretty easy to make and you can use any size gas bottle you want. Just make sure it is fully empty and the best way to do that is leave it open to the air for a couple of months and tip it upside down every now and then. Take out the valve to get all the gas out. Then you cut of the valve end to make a door, take the base of and weld it to the side. Make up a hinge, handle and door locking devise so it doesn't open. I used a strip of thin metal to put a flange on the front so the door goes into it and a slide below for the air. Weld in lugs and use an open BBq grill for the fire base, so ash can drop to the bottom. I used 2.5inch exhaust pipe with handles and flares, so everything slides into each other and the handle allows me to pull it apart without getting burnt on the hot pipe. Even driven with it when we decided to move a couple of klms, pretty warm sitting under a hot pipe. Also put it in a cage (ex freezer basket) with a solid bottom and slightly raised for air circulation. The little bolts through the bottom act as spikes in the carpet so it doesn't move and the amount of wood it uses is minimal. Our first trip we carried 3 carrot bags of wood, only to come back with one and a half, now we carry a cordless chainsaw which does the job and people camped with us, don't even know it's being used.
GaryKelly said
04:23 PM May 6, 2014
Nifty wood burner, NP, but doesn't it use air from inside the bus? I'm thinking of something that draws air from outside through a pipe (heated by a gas flame which is also outside) and into the caravan/motorhome. I've also given consideration to using something like a gas pilot flame (like the one that heats the fridge) for minimal gas usage rather than a full-blown heater. The idea is to heat a metal pipe at one end (outside) which sucks in fresh cold air, heats it, and sends it into the van. That way, any fumes or CO would stay outside. I hope I'm explaining myself okay.
oldbobsbus said
06:02 PM May 6, 2014
native pepper wrote:
Dougwe wrote:
Any pics of that gas wood heater please NP?
It's just a wood heater, no gas. This is today near Devonport, temp outside is 12, inside 29 and wet
Well I must admit that looks the bees knees.. I like it...
I'm not sure that I would build one but it certainly has merit and with very little effort you could pick it up and use it outside..
With the flue inplace it could also be run on LPG so long as there was ventilation to stop oxygen depletion.. or as Gary said draw the fuel oxygen from outside..
Coorrr with a decent burner in there ya could have the whole bus/van pulsing...
-- Edited by oldbobsbus on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 06:04:55 PM
Spook said
08:30 AM May 7, 2014
These co-axial flued heaters are the only type on the market which are legal and safe to install in sleeping areas. There are several models available and this is the smallest in the Rinnai range. I have no commercial interest in the company or any distributors. I am however a retired Rinnai Service Contractor and am intimately familiar with their products.
-- Edited by Spook on Wednesday 7th of May 2014 08:35:26 AM
Dougwe said
09:05 AM May 7, 2014
native pepper wrote:
Dougwe wrote:
Any pics of that gas wood heater please NP?
It's just a wood heater, no gas. This is today near Devonport, temp outside is 12, inside 29 and wet
Thanks for the pic NP. Very nice indeedy. I noticed you put the pic up pretty quick after me asking so thanks for that.
native pepper said
09:30 AM May 7, 2014
GaryKelly wrote:
Nifty wood burner, NP, but doesn't it use air from inside the bus? I'm thinking of something that draws air from outside through a pipe (heated by a gas flame which is also outside) and into the caravan/motorhome. I've also given consideration to using something like a gas pilot flame (like the one that heats the fridge) for minimal gas usage rather than a full-blown heater. The idea is to heat a metal pipe at one end (outside) which sucks in fresh cold air, heats it, and sends it into the van. That way, any fumes or CO would stay outside. I hope I'm explaining myself okay.
Understand what you're saying Gary and it's a good idea. You'd probably need a heat soak or baffles in the pipe to adsorb and hold the heat, otherwise the heat from the flame will just go through the pipe with the venturi effect. The hotter it got the faster air would rush through. If you heated a metal perforated block in the pipe, it would retain heat better for distribution, you'd have to isolate most of it from the wind stream so the heat rises from it and is not stripped away before it does it's job. Cool boxes use peltier plates to convert cold to heat and the opposite, so something like that to adsorb the incoming cold air and heat it. It would also depend on the size of the area to heat, as to what size pipe and heating btu's your need to get a good warmth.
Much easier and cheaper to pick up a few sticks and small branches, then you have excellent warmth. Our bus is 12m and wasn't sure if the heater would warm the inside, but is does extremely well and has a good size mass of heating metal. Got a big gas bottle on legs, converting that to heater for my neighbours house. They are getting old and find it hard to carry the wood for their big heater, this way they will only carry less than 1/4 of the size and weight and not have to bend down.
-- Edited by native pepper on Wednesday 7th of May 2014 09:36:06 AM
native pepper said
09:34 AM May 7, 2014
Dougwe wrote:
native pepper wrote:
Dougwe wrote:
Any pics of that gas wood heater please NP?
It's just a wood heater, no gas. This is today near Devonport, temp outside is 12, inside 29 and wet
Thanks for the pic NP. Very nice indeedy. I noticed you put the pic up pretty quick after me asking so thanks for that.
Just grabbed a camera and took it to send, heading home today after Agfest, will go via the east coast and catch up to some friends on the way.
Aus-Kiwi said
01:12 PM May 7, 2014
They fit ceramic filters in slow combustion heaters now.. They look like catalytic converters as fitted to cars.. They take the heat out of exhaust back into steel frame.. I guess they work like an after burner.. Our diesel heater is VERY quiet. Its under floor. can only hear the air out of vents if you listen..
The better option I guess is a good woman..Lol Or man ...
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Wednesday 7th of May 2014 01:13:45 PM
GaryKelly said
05:16 PM May 7, 2014
Thanks for that reply, NP. Seems my idea is a bit more complicated than I thought. Might have to settle for a hot water bottle and a sleeping bag.
Legendts said
06:39 PM May 7, 2014
GaryKelly wrote:
Thanks for that reply, NP. Seems my idea is a bit more complicated than I thought. Might have to settle for a hot water bottle and a sleeping bag.
Careful Gary she might hit you with the water bottle while you're asleep
elliemike said
06:47 PM May 7, 2014
For small vehicle I would go with one of these.
or something similar on gas fuel.
We have a Eberspacher Diesel heater in the Avan Cruiseliner. Uses very little diesel per hour of running. And is wonderful comfort to have in the AVAN. We can free camp on the coldest of Nights or days and be very comfortable.
Set the temp you want in the van and it modulates to maintain that temperature.
Aus-Kiwi said
09:13 AM May 8, 2014
I wonder if you could run your gas hot water through a heater fan unit from car or truck ??
OR connected it to small radiator with fan attached ??
Using a heat exchanger is a way of keeping gas etc outside and SAFE !!
With quiet slow pump ...
Yes as said on on another post the diesel heater systems are VERY efficient !!
oldbobsbus said
04:49 PM May 8, 2014
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
I wonder if you could run your gas hot water through a heater fan unit from car or truck ?? OR connected it to small radiator with fan attached ?? Using a heat exchanger is a way of keeping gas etc outside and SAFE !! With quiet slow pump ... Yes as said on on another post the diesel heater systems are VERY efficient !!
It has merit but controlling the temp of the water could be a small problem and keeping a water supply up to it would be another problem....
But..
Like I said the idea has merit..
Gerty Dancer said
05:18 PM May 8, 2014
elliemike wrote:
For small vehicle I would go with one of these.
or something similar on gas fuel.
We have a Eberspacher Diesel heater in the Avan Cruiseliner. Uses very little diesel per hour of running. And is wonderful comfort to have in the AVAN. We can free camp on the coldest of Nights or days and be very comfortable.
Set the temp you want in the van and it modulates to maintain that temperature.
Those things are WONDERFUL! But soooo expensive, sigh!
Legendts said
07:01 PM May 8, 2014
The Snugger are under $1,000 which is below half price of the others and I can see no difference in them as they are a basic heat exchanger.
Aus-Kiwi said
11:51 PM May 8, 2014
oldbobsbus wrote:
Aus-Kiwi wrote:
I wonder if you could run your gas hot water through a heater fan unit from car or truck ?? OR connected it to small radiator with fan attached ?? Using a heat exchanger is a way of keeping gas etc outside and SAFE !! With quiet slow pump ... Yes as said on on another post the diesel heater systems are VERY efficient !!
It has merit but controlling the temp of the water could be a small problem and keeping a water supply up to it would be another problem....
But..
Like I said the idea has merit..
I guess a temp sensor similar to thermo fans ?.. A waterpump used on water to air intercooler on Mercs etc A D.C internal air conditioner thermostat to switch fan, pump..
I have used the Merc pump on a water to air intercooler for a few years with out issue..
G'day smartie pants. We have a number of clever, technically minded GNs on this forum who may think there's potential in this idea for a safe indoor gas heater. My parents had a Wunderheat fireplace at home. It was an enclosed firebox set into a regular fireplace with a chimney. The heat of the firebox sucked fresh air from under the house, which circulated over the box to become hot before it was directed through an adjustable vent above the firebox and into the room. The smoke from the fire rose up through the chimney as normal and was not mixed with the fresh air.
So, I was thinking if someone could design a flexible metal pipe with insect mesh over both ends, it could be positioned over a flame from a gas bottle placed outside the caravan, and then routed through an opening in the van, the result would be CO outside and warm fresh air inside. Yeah? Not sure how practical the idea is but maybe it's worth thinking about.
The great thing about the Wunderheat was that it not only produced heat but also fresh air, which meant that the room needed no ventilation. Actually, the thing worked so efficiently that, after a while, we had to open a window or door so let some of the heat out hehe.
The heat given out by our little gas bottle wood heater, keeps the bus hot all night with no fumes and all the heat is used as the flue travels across the bus to the outside.
It's just a wood heater, no gas. This is today near Devonport, temp outside is 12, inside 29 and wet
It's a Venturi Bill, we used venturi air lifts when doing underwater construction and salvage work to remove silt etc. They are great for simple technology that works excellently, the top of our little heater is built to utilise the venturi effect. It works no matter what direction the flue is pointing, never get any smoke or fumes from it, except when adding wood. This one was an experiment and now had it for a few years, when we get home next week, will either refine it, or make another which will be more refined and hopefully will slow the combustion down even more, so it will go all night and not require me getting up to refill it in the early hours.
G'day Denis, pretty easy to make and you can use any size gas bottle you want. Just make sure it is fully empty and the best way to do that is leave it open to the air for a couple of months and tip it upside down every now and then. Take out the valve to get all the gas out. Then you cut of the valve end to make a door, take the base of and weld it to the side. Make up a hinge, handle and door locking devise so it doesn't open. I used a strip of thin metal to put a flange on the front so the door goes into it and a slide below for the air. Weld in lugs and use an open BBq grill for the fire base, so ash can drop to the bottom. I used 2.5inch exhaust pipe with handles and flares, so everything slides into each other and the handle allows me to pull it apart without getting burnt on the hot pipe. Even driven with it when we decided to move a couple of klms, pretty warm sitting under a hot pipe. Also put it in a cage (ex freezer basket) with a solid bottom and slightly raised for air circulation. The little bolts through the bottom act as spikes in the carpet so it doesn't move and the amount of wood it uses is minimal. Our first trip we carried 3 carrot bags of wood, only to come back with one and a half, now we carry a cordless chainsaw which does the job and people camped with us, don't even know it's being used.
Well I must admit that looks the bees knees.. I like it...
I'm not sure that I would build one but it certainly has merit and with very little effort you could pick it up and use it outside..
With the flue inplace it could also be run on LPG so long as there was ventilation to stop oxygen depletion.. or as Gary said draw the fuel oxygen from outside..
Coorrr with a decent burner in there ya could have the whole bus/van pulsing...
-- Edited by oldbobsbus on Tuesday 6th of May 2014 06:04:55 PM
These co-axial flued heaters are the only type on the market which are legal and safe to install in sleeping areas. There are several models available and this is the smallest in the Rinnai range. I have no commercial interest in the company or any distributors. I am however a retired Rinnai Service Contractor and am intimately familiar with their products.
http://www.rinnai.com.au/heating/energysaver%c2%ae-heaters/309ft/
-- Edited by Spook on Wednesday 7th of May 2014 08:35:26 AM
Thanks for the pic NP. Very nice indeedy. I noticed you put the pic up pretty quick after me asking so thanks for that.
Understand what you're saying Gary and it's a good idea. You'd probably need a heat soak or baffles in the pipe to adsorb and hold the heat, otherwise the heat from the flame will just go through the pipe with the venturi effect. The hotter it got the faster air would rush through. If you heated a metal perforated block in the pipe, it would retain heat better for distribution, you'd have to isolate most of it from the wind stream so the heat rises from it and is not stripped away before it does it's job. Cool boxes use peltier plates to convert cold to heat and the opposite, so something like that to adsorb the incoming cold air and heat it. It would also depend on the size of the area to heat, as to what size pipe and heating btu's your need to get a good warmth.
Much easier and cheaper to pick up a few sticks and small branches, then you have excellent warmth. Our bus is 12m and wasn't sure if the heater would warm the inside, but is does extremely well and has a good size mass of heating metal. Got a big gas bottle on legs, converting that to heater for my neighbours house. They are getting old and find it hard to carry the wood for their big heater, this way they will only carry less than 1/4 of the size and weight and not have to bend down.
-- Edited by native pepper on Wednesday 7th of May 2014 09:36:06 AM
Just grabbed a camera and took it to send, heading home today after Agfest, will go via the east coast and catch up to some friends on the way.
They fit ceramic filters in slow combustion heaters now.. They look like catalytic converters as fitted to cars..
They take the heat out of exhaust back into steel frame..
I guess they work like an after burner..
Our diesel heater is VERY quiet. Its under floor. can only hear the air out of vents if you listen..
The better option I guess is a good woman..Lol Or man ...
-- Edited by Aus-Kiwi on Wednesday 7th of May 2014 01:13:45 PM
Careful Gary she might hit you with the water bottle while you're asleep
For small vehicle I would go with one of these.
We have a Eberspacher Diesel heater in the Avan Cruiseliner. Uses very little diesel per hour of running. And is wonderful comfort to have in the AVAN. We can free camp on the coldest of Nights or days and be very comfortable.
Set the temp you want in the van and it modulates to maintain that temperature.
OR connected it to small radiator with fan attached ??
Using a heat exchanger is a way of keeping gas etc outside and SAFE !!
With quiet slow pump ...
Yes as said on on another post the diesel heater systems are VERY efficient !!
It has merit but controlling the temp of the water could be a small problem and keeping a water supply up to it would be another problem....
But..
Like I said the idea has merit..
Those things are WONDERFUL! But soooo expensive, sigh!
I guess a temp sensor similar to thermo fans ?.. A waterpump used on water to air intercooler on Mercs etc A D.C internal air conditioner thermostat to switch fan, pump..
I have used the Merc pump on a water to air intercooler for a few years with out issue..
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/140502628248?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=107