in reply to your post in general forum. I am running two 80 w panels with morning star control charging my three batts. Mm yep maybe the system should perform a bit better " but " one of my panels was secondhand when i bought it 7 years ago and i know that the new panels are better an cheaper. This system has been working in the van for two years now. My 3batts run in parallel of course and i run my 2300w inv across the front battery which is maybe not ideal but weight position and space constraints dictate. Only the 600 w inv is psw the large ones are bloody expensive. Regarding my soc (state of charge ) i didnt say what my normal m/wave usage was so you are making assumptions about my power storage. I did avoid being too specific in the general forum ,might get moved on by the fun police lol. But in fact i generally i use my coffee machine for smoko time then the m/wave for maybe a frozen meal and cup of tea ad to that the 12v sterio going often ,the fan in the rangehood going when cooking,the phone charger when needed, the powered wineguard ant with local tv, or sat tv and led lights at night. You do the maths its not my strong point. I also note my el cheapo 600w psw inv often has the cooling fan going so its a bit suss. Yes it has air flow. All i know is that my mid morning sunny day peak 14v is looking a bit ragged some nights. I only use my gen set occasionally when free camped and not liable to annoy anyone. Although being an ex motor mechanic with 55 years playing with 12v it does not in any way make me an expert solar installer but it works for mee which is what kirraweebob asked in the general forum "however" i do respect the comments of people like yourself , peter d and others who i feel are just hovering waiting to rap me over the knuckles for some technical indiscretion. Lol. Cheers. Bill.
oldbobsbus said
12:03 PM Apr 29, 2014
As I see it Bill,
The only real problem is pulling from and possibly charging to one battery..
As brian pointed out to me it is best to take the power from and put power into either end of the battery bank..
Also brian and Peter Q point out the sizing of the cables is of the utmost importance..
From what you are saying and correct me if I'm wrong it sounds like the front battery is taking all the draw and shutting down your system.
On a couple of occasions recently brian has posted a link to a page that shows the ideal way to connect to a bank of batteries along with some not so desirable ways, and the way I understand you are connected up is one of the not so desirable ways..
Steppe said
03:21 PM Apr 29, 2014
Bob. Point one.
As i said in my post a large volt draw from my single front battery is not ideal ie space /weight constraints etc etc. I dont run a wdh. I do charge both ends of my stretched batt bank and the morning star control also allows me to adjust more charge to the front battery which sort of helps a little.
Point three
i have noticed a bit of ellectrolisis in one cable when i was cleaning terminals the other day "china **** " thats my excuse anyhow. Yes i do try to buy the large batt cable from batt world. Now have to buy some more. Bloody expensive but.
Point four
mmm maybe but the remote monitor senses the voltage for the two banks and the volts drop off as evenly as can be expected under the circumstances. But anyhow i get most of my toys working for the day in particular my coffee hit.
all that changes on a dark day of course and its now getting that way on the fleurieu peninsular. I appreciate your comments Cheers. Bill.
kirraweebob said
09:36 AM Apr 30, 2014
Hi guys - had my system looked at yesterday and we are going to put in 2 additional 120Ah batteries and a 2000W MSW inverter right next to them (so we son't need lots of high amp capacity cable) under a bed. Will be a little away from the existing 86Ah under the other bed (singles) but simply no space there. All three will charge from the permanent 140W panel on the roof and boosted by an additional 140W portable when camped up.
Should work fine for what we want. "Glamping" at low on going cost. Figure the extra system is equal to 140 coffee stops for us so will be covered in our upcoming "half lap" Bob
Steppe said
10:37 AM Apr 30, 2014
Hey guys its great to see ya got it sorted. Its a great forum to get info. Some of these members seem to have been around the block a few times and even though they might get on their high tech horse at times i do like the comments and seem to learn something new every day even at my age which is now mmm... Considerable. But hey its really a nice bit of luxury to pull up outside the dome brew a nice cap with the froth on top some chocochino powder sprinkled over and finish off with a couple of choc chip cookies .....did i mention my addiction. Have a nice day. Bill.
WAssa41 said
10:39 AM Apr 30, 2014
Hi, yes you are right your set up is not ideal. When you discharge a battery you use the charge on the surface of the battery plates until they reach a level when your system will shut down. The same as when you try and start a car, you keep cranking until the battery is flat. When you come back in say 10-15 minutes the battery has power again. What happens is that you have used the charge from the outside of the battery plates and reduced this down to let's say 10v while the centre of the plate is still 12v. Now it takes a while for the plates to re balance themselves to say 11v. You now have some power to try and start the car. This is refered to as surface charge. The reverse happens when you charge the battery, the outside of the plates are at 12v but the centre is still 10v.
If you are using one battery to draw power from and charging the 3 together the battery charger/solar regulator will be reading the voltage of the 2 full charged batteries and will reduce the charge to them, as it thinks they are fully charged, at the same time the 3 batteries will be trying to balance them selves to the same voltage, so currant will flow from the 2 charged batteries to the 1 flat battery, now the voltage has dropped so the charger/regulator will kick in. All this takes time and you are not getting you batteries fully charged as you would if you used the 3 together.
To get the best out of you batteries and you charging system you musts have them all connected as one big battery even if you have to run extra cables otherwise you really are wasting your time. The batteries must be connected together in such a way that they drain and charge evenly as if they are 1 battery. There are several ways to do this but the simplest is that the current in and out of the battery bank is from the neg terminal of battery 1 and the pos is from battery3. If you need any further info please feel free to contact me. 0414552060 Mount Tamborine.
regards
wassa
oldbobsbus said
11:49 AM Apr 30, 2014
kirraweebob wrote:
Hi guys - had my system looked at yesterday and we are going to put in 2 additional 120Ah batteries and a 2000W MSW inverter right next to them (so we son't need lots of high amp capacity cable) under a bed. Will be a little away from the existing 86Ah under the other bed (singles) but simply no space there. All three will charge from the permanent 140W panel on the roof and boosted by an additional 140W portable when camped up. Should work fine for what we want. "Glamping" at low on going cost. Figure the extra system is equal to 140 coffee stops for us so will be covered in our upcoming "half lap" Bob
Just be careful if you are putting the inverter in an enclosed space as it may overheat and shut down, it doesn't need to be inuse to over heat as they are always working when they are turned on..
You may need to put a computer fan on the end of it to constantly be cooling it, and if you do use a fan be sure to wire it into the system in such a manner as to be able to switch it off when the inverter is switched off..
bandit11 said
04:36 PM Apr 30, 2014
this may not be related to the thread but i dont know where to post it. i have a mobitronic mps-50a to run the frig on 240v when parked up or it changes to 12v automaticily, the frig ran ok for a few hours then it would start turning on and off, if the 240v to it was turned off it ran ok on 12v, i checked connections etc over a few days but didnt find any probs, i pulled of the heat sink for the frig light and accidently shorted it out with a screwdriver, it stopped working altogether, pulled the fuse on the mobitronic and it looked ok, i put an ohm meter across the fuse, it showed open circut, it is a 12amp 250v small fuse, went to tandy and all they had was a 10 amp 250v ceramic fuse, put it in and the system ran like charm, frig light was brighter. i decided to disect the fuse and found one end inside the cap was not secured properly, if it was tested with an ohm meter it would be ok, when it was loaded with a few amps it was erratic, so to cut along story short have spare fuses and if you have funny probs swap out the fuse. it has been running ok for 9 years and i was just about to get a new mobitronic, which would have solved the prob but i bauked at the $180 price tag, the prob was caused by a $1 faulty fuse, hope this helps somebody.
oldbobsbus said
07:32 PM Apr 30, 2014
bandit11 wrote:
this may not be related to the thread but i dont know where to post it. i have a mobitronic mps-50a to run the frig on 240v when parked up or it changes to 12v automaticily, the frig ran ok for a few hours then it would start turning on and off, if the 240v to it was turned off it ran ok on 12v, i checked connections etc over a few days but didnt find any probs, i pulled of the heat sink for the frig light and accidently shorted it out with a screwdriver, it stopped working altogether, pulled the fuse on the mobitronic and it looked ok, i put an ohm meter across the fuse, it showed open circut, it is a 12amp 250v small fuse, went to tandy and all they had was a 10 amp 250v ceramic fuse, put it in and the system ran like charm, frig light was brighter. i decided to disect the fuse and found one end inside the cap was not secured properly, if it was tested with an ohm meter it would be ok, when it was loaded with a few amps it was erratic, so to cut along story short have spare fuses and if you have funny probs swap out the fuse. it has been running ok for 9 years and i was just about to get a new mobitronic, which would have solved the prob but i bauked at the $180 price tag, the prob was caused by a $1 faulty fuse, hope this helps somebody.
Thanks for that Bandit, little bits of info like this are always welcome and will be seen by many that follow these threads without posting..
Friar Park said
03:09 PM May 1, 2014
Hi fellas just thought i might add my two pennorth about the battery wiring and charging. I've just recently completed a refurb on my old van added a 2400w psw and put in two more 95a/h batteries (3 total). Used the link supplied by Brian to wire 'em up. They work brilliant. Used really big cable where needed. They were exey but up to now i don't have problems.
Thanks to all you better than i techies out there.
Friar
Steppe said
11:19 AM May 3, 2014
Wassa. In reply .....point 1....yep found that problem when i started as an apprentice starting the cars in my bosses car yard in about 1959.
Point 2 ...with respect your basic theory is right but your assumptions about how my batt banks are being charged is not quite correct. My batteries are not being charged evenly after an uneven discharge ( as mentioned in an earlier Post !!). See pic.
Point 3... I disagree with your comment that im waisting my time. I have used my 12v system for near on 2 years of touring now. i might also mention that i run my 3way fridge on 12v roughly 2hours on 2 off at low thermo setting and as you know they use heaps of power.
However...... However. Before i get my knuckles rapped again i will run a longer cable from my 2300w inv to the far end of my batt bank. I will let you know how much improvement i get.
Hi Steppe, would not dream of rapping your knuckles. I am sorry my statement "wasting your time" was a little strong.
Only trying to help
regards
Wassa
oldbobsbus said
07:06 PM May 3, 2014
Steppe wrote:
Point 3... I disagree with your comment that im waisting my time. I have used my 12v system for near on 2 years of touring now. i might also mention that i run my 3way fridge on 12v roughly 2hours on 2 off at low thermo setting and as you know they use heaps of power.
Thanks for your comments. Cheers. Bill.
Hi Bill, Just a little observation, with a 3 way fridge usually only the 240v and the Gas has a thermostat, 12v runs directly to the element and is constantly on while connected..
You are doing it right with your 2hrs ON 2hrs OFF, although I would be inclined to run on Gas whenever I was parked up as the temp is controllable.
I can understand you running on 12v as it is free from the sun most of the time..
Steppe said
04:41 PM May 4, 2014
Hey bob went and found the operating instructions for my 3way fridge and yes you are correct they are not regulated on 12v ... Srt of explains why they use so much current on 12v. And yes use gas when stationary. Thanks for your comments. Cheers. Bill.
Oldbobsbus
in reply to your post in general forum. I am running two 80 w panels with morning star control charging my three batts. Mm yep maybe the system should perform a bit better " but " one of my panels was secondhand when i bought it 7 years ago and i know that the new panels are better an cheaper. This system has been working in the van for two years now. My 3batts run in parallel of course and i run my 2300w inv across the front battery which is maybe not ideal but weight position and space constraints dictate. Only the 600 w inv is psw the large ones are bloody expensive. Regarding my soc (state of charge ) i didnt say what my normal m/wave usage was so you are making assumptions about my power storage. I did avoid being too specific in the general forum ,might get moved on by the fun police lol. But in fact i generally i use my coffee machine for smoko time then the m/wave for maybe a frozen meal and cup of tea ad to that the 12v sterio going often ,the fan in the rangehood going when cooking,the phone charger when needed, the powered wineguard ant with local tv, or sat tv and led lights at night. You do the maths its not my strong point. I also note my el cheapo 600w psw inv often has the cooling fan going so its a bit suss. Yes it has air flow. All i know is that my mid morning sunny day peak 14v is looking a bit ragged some nights. I only use my gen set occasionally when free camped and not liable to annoy anyone. Although being an ex motor mechanic with 55 years playing with 12v it does not in any way make me an expert solar installer but it works for mee which is what kirraweebob asked in the general forum "however" i do respect the comments of people like yourself , peter d and others who i feel are just hovering waiting to rap me over the knuckles for some technical indiscretion. Lol. Cheers. Bill.
As I see it Bill,
The only real problem is pulling from and possibly charging to one battery..
As brian pointed out to me it is best to take the power from and put power into either end of the battery bank..
Also brian and Peter Q point out the sizing of the cables is of the utmost importance..
From what you are saying and correct me if I'm wrong it sounds like the front battery is taking all the draw and shutting down your system.
On a couple of occasions recently brian has posted a link to a page that shows the ideal way to connect to a bank of batteries along with some not so desirable ways, and the way I understand you are connected up is one of the not so desirable ways..
Bob. Point one.
As i said in my post a large volt draw from my single front battery is not ideal ie space /weight constraints etc etc. I dont run a wdh. I do charge both ends of my stretched batt bank and the morning star control also allows me to adjust more charge to the front battery which sort of helps a little.
Point three
i have noticed a bit of ellectrolisis in one cable when i was cleaning terminals the other day "china **** " thats my excuse anyhow. Yes i do try to buy the large batt cable from batt world. Now have to buy some more. Bloody expensive but.
Point four
mmm maybe but the remote monitor senses the voltage for the two banks and the volts drop off as evenly as can be expected under the circumstances. But anyhow i get most of my toys working for the day in particular my coffee hit.
all that changes on a dark day of course and its now getting that way on the fleurieu peninsular. I appreciate your comments Cheers. Bill.
Should work fine for what we want. "Glamping" at low on going cost. Figure the extra system is equal to 140 coffee stops for us so will be covered in our upcoming "half lap" Bob
Hey guys its great to see ya got it sorted. Its a great forum to get info. Some of these members seem to have been around the block a few times and even though they might get on their high tech horse at times i do like the comments and seem to learn something new every day even at my age which is now mmm... Considerable. But hey its really a nice bit of luxury to pull up outside the dome brew a nice cap with the froth on top some chocochino powder sprinkled over and finish off with a couple of choc chip cookies .....did i mention my addiction. Have a nice day. Bill.
Hi, yes you are right your set up is not ideal. When you discharge a battery you use the charge on the surface of the battery plates until they reach a level when your system will shut down. The same as when you try and start a car, you keep cranking until the battery is flat. When you come back in say 10-15 minutes the battery has power again. What happens is that you have used the charge from the outside of the battery plates and reduced this down to let's say 10v while the centre of the plate is still 12v. Now it takes a while for the plates to re balance themselves to say 11v. You now have some power to try and start the car. This is refered to as surface charge. The reverse happens when you charge the battery, the outside of the plates are at 12v but the centre is still 10v.
If you are using one battery to draw power from and charging the 3 together the battery charger/solar regulator will be reading the voltage of the 2 full charged batteries and will reduce the charge to them, as it thinks they are fully charged, at the same time the 3 batteries will be trying to balance them selves to the same voltage, so currant will flow from the 2 charged batteries to the 1 flat battery, now the voltage has dropped so the charger/regulator will kick in. All this takes time and you are not getting you batteries fully charged as you would if you used the 3 together.
To get the best out of you batteries and you charging system you musts have them all connected as one big battery even if you have to run extra cables otherwise you really are wasting your time. The batteries must be connected together in such a way that they drain and charge evenly as if they are 1 battery. There are several ways to do this but the simplest is that the current in and out of the battery bank is from the neg terminal of battery 1 and the pos is from battery3. If you need any further info please feel free to contact me. 0414552060 Mount Tamborine.
regards
wassa
Just be careful if you are putting the inverter in an enclosed space as it may overheat and shut down, it doesn't need to be inuse to over heat as they are always working when they are turned on..
You may need to put a computer fan on the end of it to constantly be cooling it, and if you do use a fan be sure to wire it into the system in such a manner as to be able to switch it off when the inverter is switched off..
this may not be related to the thread but i dont know where to post it. i have a mobitronic mps-50a to run the frig on 240v when parked up or it changes to 12v automaticily, the frig ran ok for a few hours then it would start turning on and off, if the 240v to it was turned off it ran ok on 12v, i checked connections etc over a few days but didnt find any probs, i pulled of the heat sink for the frig light and accidently shorted it out with a screwdriver, it stopped working altogether, pulled the fuse on the mobitronic and it looked ok, i put an ohm meter across the fuse, it showed open circut, it is a 12amp 250v small fuse, went to tandy and all they had was a 10 amp 250v ceramic fuse, put it in and the system ran like charm, frig light was brighter. i decided to disect the fuse and found one end inside the cap was not secured properly, if it was tested with an ohm meter it would be ok, when it was loaded with a few amps it was erratic, so to cut along story short have spare fuses and if you have funny probs swap out the fuse. it has been running ok for 9 years and i was just about to get a new mobitronic, which would have solved the prob but i bauked at the $180 price tag, the prob was caused by a $1 faulty fuse, hope this helps somebody.
Thanks for that Bandit, little bits of info like this are always welcome and will be seen by many that follow these threads without posting..
Hi fellas just thought i might add my two pennorth about the battery wiring and charging. I've just recently completed a refurb on my old van added a 2400w psw and put in two more 95a/h batteries (3 total). Used the link supplied by Brian to wire 'em up. They work brilliant. Used really big cable where needed. They were exey but up to now i don't have problems.
Thanks to all you better than i techies out there.
Friar
Wassa. In reply .....point 1....yep found that problem when i started as an apprentice starting the cars in my bosses car yard in about 1959.
Point 2 ...with respect your basic theory is right but your assumptions about how my batt banks are being charged is not quite correct. My batteries are not being charged evenly after an uneven discharge ( as mentioned in an earlier Post !!). See pic.
Point 3... I disagree with your comment that im waisting my time. I have used my 12v system for near on 2 years of touring now. i might also mention that i run my 3way fridge on 12v roughly 2hours on 2 off at low thermo setting and as you know they use heaps of power.
However...... However. Before i get my knuckles rapped again i will run a longer cable from my 2300w inv to the far end of my batt bank. I will let you know how much improvement i get.
Thanks for your comments. Cheers. Bill.
Hi Steppe, would not dream of rapping your knuckles. I am sorry my statement "wasting your time" was a little strong.
Only trying to help
regards
Wassa
Hi Bill, Just a little observation, with a 3 way fridge usually only the 240v and the Gas has a thermostat, 12v runs directly to the element and is constantly on while connected..
You are doing it right with your 2hrs ON 2hrs OFF, although I would be inclined to run on Gas whenever I was parked up as the temp is controllable.
I can understand you running on 12v as it is free from the sun most of the time..
Hey bob went and found the operating instructions for my 3way fridge and yes you are correct they are not regulated on 12v ... Srt of explains why they use so much current on 12v. And yes use gas when stationary. Thanks for your comments. Cheers. Bill.