Hi all, I have posted a thread on another forum, in relation to the CMCA's LNT scheme and would be interested in the response of this forum which seems to a full spectrum of campers from motorhomers to budget camper as well as caravan travellers, below is a copy of the thread, please share your thoughts.
Kevin.
RE: Leave No Trace scheme
I know this is an old thread but in light of an article by Col Coleman N22212 in the March Wanderer, I felt this a good time to go back to it, where Col asks what we can do to help with the Freedom of choice issue and I quote, "start by signing up to the Leave no trace scheme, basically it is a commitment to do the right thing and most of us do that anyway, the number of members that have signed up, although growing, is almost insignificant when you look at the total membership". This goes back to my original question as to what % of the CMCA membership is totally self contained and want the regulation that go with the "leave no trace scheme" and if, it is in the minority? why are the majority of members not being represented by "their" board? most of us who travel on the road start with a basic, smaller mode of camping as did the "founders" of the CMCA, it is suppose to be our club too but we are finding the management of this club of ours is working to exclude the majority of us from being able to take advantage of the club working to maintain our right to choose and be able to tour this country and camp responsibly. When I first joined the CMCA, I thought of this club as a membership of like minded people who were recognised as being responsible campers and were proud of that fact enough, to put a sticker on their vehicle to be reconsided as a member of the CMCA, that sticker stated I was a responsible camper, I didn't know at that time that I had to join the inner group within, to be "really" a recognised responsible camper by my club. The CMCA badge should be enough to be recognised as being a member of a responsible camping group, unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case, isn't the CMCA "brand" good enough? perhaps the "majority of the members" should form their "own" club, this is not to say I don't observe the creed of "leave it better than you found it" I most certainly do but as COl originally said in his article, most of us do that already, without having to put in extra tanks where we can't fit them, nor can we afford to get rid of our little home to go bigger, just to accommdate the critera of the "leave no trace" regulations.
This is probably not the best place to talk about this, considering that the name of the web site is "aussiemotorhome" not campers but here goes.
Regards,
Kevin
-- Edited by Webmaster on Thursday 6th of March 2014 08:36:56 AM
Patto44 said
03:45 PM Mar 5, 2014
Firstly, I wish to state that I am a CMCA member. I joined mainly to obtain insurance at a competitive rate.
Since joining I have realised that there appears to be a definite 'inner circle' as you indicate and I object strongly to being dictated to that I must also 'register' with the club and be approved to be considered LNT setup.
It will get to the point that unless you are a member of the CMCA and are approved LNT councils will not let you stop within their boundaries.
We are already 'over-governed' with red tape.
My vent for the day.
Patto
Jonathan said
03:59 PM Mar 5, 2014
.. I am also a fully-paidup member of the CMCA 'til it expires as I do find it not suitable in many aspects .. I now happily own a tug and Caravan and a member of the ACC who like many other Clubs also follow a similar practice to the "leave no trace scheme" ..
I do acknowledge that the CMCA has done some good things .. but .. primarily in the interests of its own policies .. which is quite restricting when it comes to the general nomadic public ..
To each his own, but I won't support any direct CMCA action as I, like many others, already adhere to the same standards ..
JayDee said
10:01 PM Mar 5, 2014
Well if the CMCA who I think ??? publish the Wanderer are there for their members, then it should be a given that they support the members lifestyle. After all if we did not own a RV then they would not exist. I rather think, that the power of the advertising dollar$$$ has come into play here. Why?? Well no doubt the CMCA gain great revenue from the RV and motorhome manufacturers by way of paid advertisement for their product full glossy pages. Also the Caravan Parks or should I say (what they now want to call themselves) Holiday parks or Holiday Resort Parks, also contribute dollars$$$ in support of their paid advertisements. So if your are CMCA or The Travellers Magazine who are you going to put your efforts behind. Certainly from what I read and hear... not their members. Jay&dee
-- Edited by JayDee on Wednesday 5th of March 2014 10:03:05 PM
brian said
11:09 PM Mar 5, 2014
I fully support the CMCA and its leave no trace scheme.
These are a group of people who have seen "the writing on the wall" and been pro-active in keeping ahead of the coming trend that all campers will eventually have to be "self contained".
Whether it is "Grey Nomads", overseas backpackers or the locals making the continuing messes in camp areas - that paid council employees have to clean up, the fact is that the mess continues unabated, and the time is nigh when cash strapped local councils will, if they don't close the camping areas altogether, impose much stricter requirements on those wishing to use the facilities.
The cleanest campgrounds that I see in my travels are those that provide no toilet or rubbish facilities at all. Put a bin there and, even if it is overflowing, (which is normally the case) folks will still dump their junk.
Most will take their rubbish with them if there is no bin, some pigs will do what they do no matter what is done to prevent it.
The CMCA have supported, and partially funded numerous facilities in regional areas in order to endear the club to, and have those councils consider the club favourably when making decisions which may affect CMCA members.
The club is undoubtedly responsible for the availability of quite a few camping areas being open that otherwise would not be. They are also responsible for quite a large proportion of the goodwill that is now being enjoyed by all travellers as a result of the "RV friendly towns" program by making business folk in those towns acutely aware of the dollars that they stand to lose by allowing small portions of their business community to dictate to travellers where they must stay when visiting those areas.
Sure, their magazine carries paid advertisements...Do you really think that your paltry annual membership fee would cover all of the benefits that this club provides plus pay for the printing of that quality Wanderer magazine as well.
Who really cares if the ads are of a commercial nature, it is always quite obvious that that is the case, there is no attempt to con you on this point, so you either read the ad if you are interested, or just read the articles, the inclusion of which, the revenue gained from the paid advertisement has made possible.
Whenever you see, in a newspaper or magazine, a road test of a car, caravan or motorhome, you can be 99.99% sure that some form of payment has been made to get it into print.
Incidentally, I own a caravan, not a motorhome, so derive no direct benefit from quite a lot of their events and programs, but still see great benefit in supporting them with my membership simply for the things that I have mentioned.
barrie said
07:57 AM Mar 6, 2014
I own a caravan and my wife and I always follow the leave no trace ,in fact we tidy up around the sites we stay at after grubs have been there and we are not a member of any club .
native pepper said
08:25 AM Mar 6, 2014
We were once members of the CMCA until they became a board controlled company and since it has deteriorated dramatically. Leave no trace is something real travellers adhere to anyway, no one who spends a lot of time on the road wants to arrive at a nice camps site to find it littered with rubbish. We take our rubbish with us and drop it of at transfer stations etc, it's very common to come across overloaded bins etc at well frequented stops and camps on the touro trail.
Vic41 said
08:43 AM Mar 6, 2014
The original Leave No Trace scheme was set up for hikers and campers internationally and the CMCA one is their own version of that, other RV clubs have their own versions of the scheme (eg; Australian Caravan Club - ACC).
This is the Australian one for campers and hikers etc;
I was also a member of CMCA for awhile but did not get involved in it so can't really comment on their rallies etc.
I did participate in their forum but this was disbanded by CMCA I believe as they felt some members were abusing it to criticise the CMCA Board publicly which they did not appreciate.
Bucko said
02:50 PM Mar 6, 2014
A lot of the original attitude of the CMCA that has been voice here has changed recently with changes in the board, yes the forum was closed down because the board felt abused by some forum members, disenfranchaised members set up another web site, www.aussiemotorhomers.com this site is available to a large section of the travelling public, incorporating a good cross section, so vertually anyone can access it.
I belive that most travelers adhere to creed of "leaving it better than you found it", without the necessity of being certified LNT to be allowed to be able to camp responsibly anywhere in Australia and still pay for it, this is the direction the CMCA is heading with all it's dealings with councils and government departments and this will flow on to all users not just CMCA members, we have public land all around the country that we as tax payers have paid for yet we find them closed and locked away, it should be the right of all tax paying Australians to have access to their own country to use, responsibly of course, not locked out of, unfortunately there is always some people who abuse the these rights, with rights come responsibility but that does not mean that those rights should be removed from all, because of minority bunch of Mongrels, no slight intended "Mongrel".
Regards, Kevin.
beiffe said
02:59 PM Mar 6, 2014
I too was a member of the CMCA and adhere to the leave no trace idea but I have stopped my membership as I felt that they had nothing to offer me as a travelling nomad.
If you are not a chapter member or a rally person then they did not consider you a true member.
They had inner circles inside inner circles and I have had several abusive discussion because i would not join their chapter meeting if I happened to be in the same spot and was told I should not be in the club if I did not go to rally's etc.
I was an active member of the original CMCA forum but after being attacked by people because we dared to step out side their boundaries.
They now exist on new joining members and hope that the new members will cover the members leaving every year.
If you wish to be conscientious with leaving no trace then setup your rig to comply and also actively clean up an area while there and promote a clean concept to other travelers you meet.
Regards
Brian
Bucko said
03:29 PM Mar 6, 2014
Hi Brian,
I agree with what you said about the chapters and rallies, I'm not that kind of person myself but attitudes do seem to be changeing in that respect since a few new board members have taken up their positions but they still seem to be slanted towards creating that elite group within with the LNT, which is a small % of the membership, I myself have a very small camper outfit, with a slide on the back of a ute, I was still able to put in a porta potti for emergencies and empty it with in the proper facilities and always get rid of the rubbish in the proper bins etc, my only area of discord with LNT was and is grey water, having only a small basin of water a day to get rid of each day, where I can't put it in a toilet or associated drain, I put on a deserving bush or tree, all my detergents are non phosphate and biodegradable, I always use a laundramat for my clothes etc, so since I grew up with droughts etc on the land, I never waste water nor miss the opportunity to recycle my grey water on the plants, I don't feel that I betray my ideals of "leaving it better than I found it" by doing so, if the camp ground stipulates that grey water is not to go on the ground, I take it with me to a place where I can water the plants.
Regards, Kevin.
Vic41 said
10:49 PM Mar 6, 2014
One of the problems with the CMCA LNT scheme is many councils have been convinced if you are not fully self contained you are not allowed to stay there at that particular spot.
I have always had small RV's and mostly just want to stay one night in some places which I can manage without being fully self contained and not discharging any liquids of any sort or leaving rubbish. However these rules prevent the responsible camper who is not fully self contained from doing so.
I may add that just because someone has a fully self contained rig, it does not prevent them from discharging grey or black water if they are irresponsible types (I am not talking about those who are LNT compliant who take the scheme seriously) who do so if they are not being observed. There have been instances where "puddles" have been left by these types and some even driving off with the stuff draining out of their vans and on the roads as they continue on their journey.
-- Edited by Vic41 on Thursday 6th of March 2014 10:52:05 PM
Bucko said
12:23 PM Mar 7, 2014
Hi Dispicable you,
I witnessed an incident at Hamilton in Tassie a few years ago, a motorhome with a CMCA sticker as well as a LNT sticker, emptying a 100ltr grey water tank on the ground where he had camped and then left, this was no more than 30mtrs away from a CMCA sponsored dump site, as you say being self contained and certified LNT doesn't always fix the problems, a***holes are always a***holes. I was so gobsmacked when I saw him I was just speachless, it's a pity I wasn't a bit more aware and used my camera to be able to send his rego it to the CMCA, I'm ready for the next one I come across.
Kevin.
Vic41 said
10:31 PM Mar 7, 2014
They are out there Kevin, irrespective of compliance or otherwise.
Responsible RV users of all types unfortunately can be excluded by some councils who have been brainwashed into only allowing certain types of rigs etc due to the actions of other irresponsible RV users on the road.
-- Edited by Vic41 on Friday 7th of March 2014 10:37:15 PM
Gerty Dancer said
12:28 PM Mar 8, 2014
We'd never get a LNT sticker, yet we always empty our dishwater bucket carefully under trees or bushes and clean up all the rubbish that is left around by others. I object to cleaning up toilet paper though, and there is such a lot of that everywhere at rest stops in SA and WA, its disgusting.
Herb said
01:10 PM Mar 9, 2014
Until camper hire companies (wiki etc) are forced to provide campers that are fully self contained I think the rubbish and toilet issues will continue. Also what are they going to do about the weekend campers, the families whom the country should be opened up to or the backpackers in their cars? My feeling is that they should open the parks up, charge a small fee to everyone and provide toilets and rubbish bins. no one should begrudge paying $5 a night (no more) for the stay in some of the most beautiful places in Aus. If areas are kept clean and toilets reasonably good then people are less likely to abuse them. As for the LNT I think it is over rated and a responsible approach would be to encourage environmentally friendly cleaners that are reasonably priced for use everywhere not just when camping.
On the issue of caravan clubs, well they are good for the few but not suited to the many. As with any club they have an agenda.
Bucko said
09:20 PM Mar 9, 2014
Herb,
You've got my vote, sounds like a reasonable plan.
Hi all, I have posted a thread on another forum, in relation to the CMCA's LNT scheme and would be interested in the response of this forum which seems to a full spectrum of campers from motorhomers to budget camper as well as caravan travellers, below is a copy of the thread, please share your thoughts.
Kevin.
RE: Leave No Trace scheme
This goes back to my original question as to what % of the CMCA membership is totally self contained and want the regulation that go with the "leave no trace scheme" and if, it is in the minority? why are the majority of members not being represented by "their" board? most of us who travel on the road start with a basic, smaller mode of camping as did the "founders" of the CMCA, it is suppose to be our club too but we are finding the management of this club of ours is working to exclude the majority of us from being able to take advantage of the club working to maintain our right to choose and be able to tour this country and camp responsibly.
When I first joined the CMCA, I thought of this club as a membership of like minded people who were recognised as being responsible campers and were proud of that fact enough, to put a sticker on their vehicle to be reconsided as a member of the CMCA, that sticker stated I was a responsible camper, I didn't know at that time that I had to join the inner group within, to be "really" a recognised responsible camper by my club.
The CMCA badge should be enough to be recognised as being a member of a responsible camping group, unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case, isn't the CMCA "brand" good enough? perhaps the "majority of the members" should form their "own" club, this is not to say I don't observe the creed of "leave it better than you found it" I most certainly do but as COl originally said in his article, most of us do that already, without having to put in extra tanks where we can't fit them, nor can we afford to get rid of our little home to go bigger, just to accommdate the critera of the "leave no trace" regulations.
This is probably not the best place to talk about this, considering that the name of the web site is "aussiemotorhome" not campers but here goes.
Regards,
Kevin
-- Edited by Webmaster on Thursday 6th of March 2014 08:36:56 AM
Since joining I have realised that there appears to be a definite 'inner circle' as you indicate and I object strongly to being dictated to that I must also 'register' with the club and be approved to be considered LNT setup.
It will get to the point that unless you are a member of the CMCA and are approved LNT councils will not let you stop within their boundaries.
We are already 'over-governed' with red tape.
My vent for the day.
Patto
.. I am also a fully-paidup member of the CMCA 'til it expires as I do find it not suitable in many aspects .. I now happily own a tug and Caravan and a member of the ACC who like many other Clubs also follow a similar practice to the "leave no trace scheme" ..
I do acknowledge that the CMCA has done some good things .. but .. primarily in the interests of its own policies .. which is quite restricting when it comes to the general nomadic public ..
To each his own, but I won't support any direct CMCA action as I, like many others, already adhere to the same standards ..
Well if the CMCA who I think ??? publish the Wanderer are there for their members, then it should be a given that they support the members lifestyle. After all if we did not own a RV then they would not exist.
I rather think, that the power of the advertising dollar$$$ has come into play here.
Why?? Well no doubt the CMCA gain great revenue from the RV and motorhome manufacturers by way of paid advertisement for their product full glossy pages. Also the Caravan Parks or should I say (what they now want to call themselves) Holiday parks or Holiday Resort Parks, also contribute dollars$$$ in support of their paid advertisements.
So if your are CMCA or The Travellers Magazine who are you going to put your efforts behind. Certainly from what I read and hear... not their members.
Jay&dee
-- Edited by JayDee on Wednesday 5th of March 2014 10:03:05 PM
I fully support the CMCA and its leave no trace scheme.
These are a group of people who have seen "the writing on the wall" and been pro-active in keeping ahead of the coming trend that all campers will eventually have to be "self contained".
Whether it is "Grey Nomads", overseas backpackers or the locals making the continuing messes in camp areas - that paid council employees have to clean up, the fact is that the mess continues unabated, and the time is nigh when cash strapped local councils will, if they don't close the camping areas altogether, impose much stricter requirements on those wishing to use the facilities.
The cleanest campgrounds that I see in my travels are those that provide no toilet or rubbish facilities at all. Put a bin there and, even if it is overflowing, (which is normally the case) folks will still dump their junk.
Most will take their rubbish with them if there is no bin, some pigs will do what they do no matter what is done to prevent it.
The CMCA have supported, and partially funded numerous facilities in regional areas in order to endear the club to, and have those councils consider the club favourably when making decisions which may affect CMCA members.
The club is undoubtedly responsible for the availability of quite a few camping areas being open that otherwise would not be. They are also responsible for quite a large proportion of the goodwill that is now being enjoyed by all travellers as a result of the "RV friendly towns" program by making business folk in those towns acutely aware of the dollars that they stand to lose by allowing small portions of their business community to dictate to travellers where they must stay when visiting those areas.
Sure, their magazine carries paid advertisements...Do you really think that your paltry annual membership fee would cover all of the benefits that this club provides plus pay for the printing of that quality Wanderer magazine as well.
Who really cares if the ads are of a commercial nature, it is always quite obvious that that is the case, there is no attempt to con you on this point, so you either read the ad if you are interested, or just read the articles, the inclusion of which, the revenue gained from the paid advertisement has made possible.
Whenever you see, in a newspaper or magazine, a road test of a car, caravan or motorhome, you can be 99.99% sure that some form of payment has been made to get it into print.
Incidentally, I own a caravan, not a motorhome, so derive no direct benefit from quite a lot of their events and programs, but still see great benefit in supporting them with my membership simply for the things that I have mentioned.
The original Leave No Trace scheme was set up for hikers and campers internationally and the CMCA one is their own version of that, other RV clubs have their own versions of the scheme (eg; Australian Caravan Club - ACC).
This is the Australian one for campers and hikers etc;
http://www.lnt.org.au/
And the Tassie one (some funny little cartoons on this one;
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/indeX.aspX?base=406
Some other info on LNT;
http://wikitravel.org/en/Leave-no-trace_camping
I was also a member of CMCA for awhile but did not get involved in it so can't really comment on their rallies etc.
I did participate in their forum but this was disbanded by CMCA I believe as they felt some members were abusing it to criticise the CMCA Board publicly which they did not appreciate.
I belive that most travelers adhere to creed of "leaving it better than you found it", without the necessity of being certified LNT to be allowed to be able to camp responsibly anywhere in Australia and still pay for it, this is the direction the CMCA is heading with all it's dealings with councils and government departments and this will flow on to all users not just CMCA members, we have public land all around the country that we as tax payers have paid for yet we find them closed and locked away, it should be the right of all tax paying Australians to have access to their own country to use, responsibly of course, not locked out of, unfortunately there is always some people who abuse the these rights, with rights come responsibility but that does not mean that those rights should be removed from all, because of minority bunch of Mongrels, no slight intended "Mongrel".
Regards, Kevin.
If you are not a chapter member or a rally person then they did not consider you a true member.
They had inner circles inside inner circles and I have had several abusive discussion because i would not join their chapter meeting if I happened to be in the same spot and was told I should not be in the club if I did not go to rally's etc.
I was an active member of the original CMCA forum but after being attacked by people because we dared to step out side their boundaries.
They now exist on new joining members and hope that the new members will cover the members leaving every year.
If you wish to be conscientious with leaving no trace then setup your rig to comply and also actively clean up an area while there and promote a clean concept to other travelers you meet.
Regards
Brian
Hi Brian,
I agree with what you said about the chapters and rallies, I'm not that kind of person myself but attitudes do seem to be changeing in that respect since a few new board members have taken up their positions but they still seem to be slanted towards creating that elite group within with the LNT, which is a small % of the membership, I myself have a very small camper outfit, with a slide on the back of a ute, I was still able to put in a porta potti for emergencies and empty it with in the proper facilities and always get rid of the rubbish in the proper bins etc, my only area of discord with LNT was and is grey water, having only a small basin of water a day to get rid of each day, where I can't put it in a toilet or associated drain, I put on a deserving bush or tree, all my detergents are non phosphate and biodegradable, I always use a laundramat for my clothes etc, so since I grew up with droughts etc on the land, I never waste water nor miss the opportunity to recycle my grey water on the plants, I don't feel that I betray my ideals of "leaving it better than I found it" by doing so, if the camp ground stipulates that grey water is not to go on the ground, I take it with me to a place where I can water the plants.
Regards, Kevin.
One of the problems with the CMCA LNT scheme is many councils have been convinced if you are not fully self contained you are not allowed to stay there at that particular spot.
I have always had small RV's and mostly just want to stay one night in some places which I can manage without being fully self contained and not discharging any liquids of any sort or leaving rubbish. However these rules prevent the responsible camper who is not fully self contained from doing so.
I may add that just because someone has a fully self contained rig, it does not prevent them from discharging grey or black water if they are irresponsible types (I am not talking about those who are LNT compliant who take the scheme seriously) who do so if they are not being observed. There have been instances where "puddles" have been left by these types and some even driving off with the stuff draining out of their vans and on the roads as they continue on their journey.
-- Edited by Vic41 on Thursday 6th of March 2014 10:52:05 PM
Hi Dispicable you,
I witnessed an incident at Hamilton in Tassie a few years ago, a motorhome with a CMCA sticker as well as a LNT sticker, emptying a 100ltr grey water tank on the ground where he had camped and then left, this was no more than 30mtrs away from a CMCA sponsored dump site, as you say being self contained and certified LNT doesn't always fix the problems, a***holes are always a***holes. I was so gobsmacked when I saw him I was just speachless, it's a pity I wasn't a bit more aware and used my camera to be able to send his rego it to the CMCA, I'm ready for the next one I come across.
Kevin.
They are out there Kevin, irrespective of compliance or otherwise.
Responsible RV users of all types unfortunately can be excluded by some councils who have been brainwashed into only allowing certain types of rigs etc due to the actions of other irresponsible RV users on the road.
-- Edited by Vic41 on Friday 7th of March 2014 10:37:15 PM
On the issue of caravan clubs, well they are good for the few but not suited to the many. As with any club they have an agenda.
Herb,
You've got my vote, sounds like a reasonable plan.
Kevin.