Righto you lot I have a small problem with the 12V electrics in the new van, when you watch TV and turn on the fan in the shower the TV cuts out any ideas?? Problem number two when using the taps with the 12V pump (free camping) the lights flicker?? any suggestions to look at will be appreciated.
Woolly said
03:42 PM Jan 27, 2014
At a guess they are on the same power wire & it is not big enough to handle the draw. The old setup in my Fiat Ducato that is now completely stripped out was like that, 1 wire from fuse ran all the way around the van, if you turned on more a couple of things the wire just wasn't able to handle the amount of draw needed to run them.
Hence 1 of the reasons that we have completely started again with a blank canvas.
bill12 said
04:07 PM Jan 27, 2014
Yes, sounds like voltage drop. Tvs use a few amps and a dedicated wire and fuse is usually called for. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Monday 27th of January 2014 04:07:36 PM
valiant81 said
04:16 PM Jan 27, 2014
Hi;
Wolly's right. The cableing not handeling the current draw. It could also be that the house battery may be flat and need charging, Battery size may be to small OR the battery is old and needs replceing . Also the television would have a low voltage cut out and once the battery voltage has droped below the cut off point the set would shut down.
The water pump would draw quiet a few amps ( 10~15 Amps is not uncommon ) and cause the television to shut down and /or the caravan house lighting to pulse as when the water pump is running and battery voltage is low, the current draw would be even higher and then the battery voltage would be even lower and the pump motor would slow down ( and the load on the motor decrease ) . This would then cause the battery voltage to increase (due to the load decreaseing ) and the motor would then try and increase in speed and the load would then increase .And then the battery voltage then would take a nother dive. This voltage fluxuation is what causes the lights to flicker. If left in this state the pump would eventualy stall and could cause the motor to burn out. Most water pumps would have some type of fuse installed BUT at the lower voltage the fuse may not fail.
rockylizard said
04:21 PM Jan 27, 2014
Gday...
I am a complete moron when it comes to electricity whether 12v or 240v, and Valiant81 your advice regarding Copper1's problem was very good.
However, did you actually read it out loud BEFORE you posted it?.... sort of confusing and goes around and around until the gist of it is finally absorbed after the third or more read.
Not exactly a 'lay-person-simple' explanation
Cheers - John
Woolly said
04:28 PM Jan 27, 2014
The bit that is concerning is Copper1 said in the "new van" surely the manufacturers wouldn't run 1 wire for tv & fan, 1 for pump & lights, how much does a few extra mtrs of wire cost really. I expected it with mine for it was a cheap, cheap, cheap install & I knew that when i bought it.
-- Edited by Woolly on Monday 27th of January 2014 04:29:08 PM
oldbobsbus said
04:30 PM Jan 27, 2014
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
I am a complete moron when it comes to electricity whether 12v or 240v, and Valiant81 your advice regarding Copper1's problem was very good.
However, did you actually read it out loud BEFORE you posted it?.... sort of confusing and goes around and around until the gist of it is finally absorbed after the third or more read.
Not exactly a 'lay-person-simple' explanation
Cheers - John
Gee John, I thought it sounded soo good I have been trying to put music to it and maybe I would have a hit on my hands...lol
Cloak said
04:55 PM Jan 27, 2014
Copper do you have a MultiMeter? Stick the probes over the Battery terminals and have a helper turn stuff on a bit at a time or one at a time.
Keep an eye on the reading it should stay within specs ie a 12V battery should not drop below 11 - 11.5 V. If so then add up the power used by the devices
that were turned on and make sure they don't overload the battery rating.
Sometimes it is possible that manufacturers overlook the requirements of low voltage circuits in recreational equipment because it comes under auto electrical.
Anyhow I'm guessing here that either the batteries are under charged / insufficient rating or the wiring is too small for the current used. Keep in mind the ideal
12V wire size is around 8mm dia. I bet you yours is not that thick.
Another thought is maybe it's the dreaded EMF problem. When the TV goes off do you mean powers off or does it just lose the signal? Fans and pumps
are electric motors which produce large EMF (electromagnetic fields) which can and do disturb tiny TV signals. In RV's you can take to the bank that no manufacturer
of electrical gear shields them, why should they there are no or very weak regulations for 12Vdc equipment.
Good luck mate.
ken thomas said
05:24 PM Jan 27, 2014
Hello All
I have a similar problem but mine is no power at all when I wake up and after the sun has risen and on the solar panels all comes back on. The voltage on the solar controller in the morning shows 12.8-12.9 volts and the battery's are fully charged what the????
It is an intermittant problem as some days it is ok
Ken
Olley46 said
05:37 PM Jan 27, 2014
I am with Cloak on this EMF problem ,I have a simler problem with my tele switch on a certain light witch is LED off goes the television ,and Copper 1 new van may have LED lights.
lance C
Cloak said
05:44 PM Jan 27, 2014
Back in my day a real life engineer would sign off from ALL electrical design and manufacturing, not a tradie or technician.
A quick look at a few local RV products makes me think the only sign off these days is from the accountant.
Cheers
Ex metrologist.
valiant81 said
05:54 PM Jan 27, 2014
Hi all, and rocklizard;
Ok I'll try and make this a bit clearer for you . I used work in the electronic field and while i know what i'm talking about, trying to put that in to text, well lets say it's not one of my strong points , so this time I'll try and keep it simple.....
The basic 12 Volt television running off your house battery will draw about 4 ~ 5 amps and a bit more if the set has a DVD player installed. So we have a medium sort of load?.
As the load of a 12 Volt water pump that is fitted into your average caravan the draw would be in the order of 10 ~15 Amps, mine is fitted with a 15 Amp. Some of the higher pressure pumps the current draw is a lot higher, Some of the pressure pumps that farmers use to do a bit of spraying of chemicals,water based, well a 30 Amp fuse is fitted, small tankers fitted onto a small trailer etc.
Now depending on what type of battery that you have and there are many differant types out there the open ternimal voltage ( no load ) and nothing connected to the battery , should have a voltage of about 13.7 odd volts for a full charged battery and you only have to drop a couple of volts ( 11.5 ~ 10.5 ) and the battery would be basicly flat. At this lower voltage the battery could supply the current that the television would require, but when it come to trying to run the water pump as well as the television the battery voltage is 'pulled' even lower, television shuts down and the water pump would pulsate.
This pulsating would cause the battery voltage to rise and fall a fair bit and this rise and fall in voltage causes the lights to change in intensity ( brightness ). This is not realy a problem with a fully charged battery as the battery has the capacity to handle the load at the time, but if the battery is on the way out or 1/2 flat or even under sized for the job. This is why many caravans have two or more heavy duty battery fitted and the common size appears to be 100 A/H.
On a side note, a bus that i have been looking at and had been converted in to mobil home had a total of 8 x 12 volt batterys fitted and each battery was 200 A/H so we had a total of 1600 A/H . Also this mobil home had 720 Watts of solar panels fitted to the roof.
One of the biggest problems with 12 Volts is the capacity of the battery and also the size of the wireing, not a problem if you only have a few led lights, but a problem if you just want to run your television, But a real big problem if you are trying to start and run a 12 volt water pump. Start current would be a lot more amps than what the pump draws once the motor is running. Same as a car, it takes a lot more fuel to reach a speed of 100 Kms than it takes to maintain that speed.
How old are the battery and if you could beg /borrow a muilty meter and check the battery votage, like what ' cloak' has asked you to do.
I you are haveing problem with television recieption when you are running the water pump, the problem could be the antenna system in your caravan be the problem , and this is a real can of worms here, or the water pump is puting out hash ( on to the 12 wiring ) and the television internal power supply and/ or the digital tuner may not like the dirty voltage been feed to it
Nelly said
07:03 PM Jan 27, 2014
Surely a new van would be under warranty - the manufacturers should fix it for you.
copper1 said
07:38 PM Jan 27, 2014
Thanks everyone for your input. Rockylizard Mate sorry if I confused you but my missus say's I am bad and my typing is SH#T anyway Nelly hit the nail on the head it is a new van only a few months old so will get it looked at, and you would think the battery's would be top notch. But I thought in the short term as I am away in Tassie, I might be able to do a shonky repair or quick fix .
Thanks again everyone for your input and yes I have a multimeter so will do a few checks.
Aus-Kiwi said
11:04 PM Jan 27, 2014
Check connections at battery ..Long shot .. But basic things to check..
Diggings said
08:45 AM Jan 28, 2014
First thing I would check would be earth wiring.
KevKim37 said
05:34 PM Jan 28, 2014
We have two ensuite vents with fans and since owning van either one of these used to interfere with the TV signal severely , so ended up fitting capacitor across terminals at the motor. This solved the problem but when one of the fan motors seized up and being told that a new one was close to $70 I replaced with a 120mm computer fan ($10) and this unit does not cause any signal degradation of the TV signals. Also instead of drawing close to 4 amps with the original unit it only draws around 1.2 amps.
Cheers Kev.
Two Strays said
06:22 PM Jan 28, 2014
Hello All
I had a similiar problem. The problem was the batteries. They showed fully charged, but when the load came on, they would collapse, resulting in all 12volt equipment going kaput.
Check the battery condition, ie, do a load test first before heading off in other directions.
Happy caravanning
ken thomas said
07:24 PM Jan 28, 2014
Hello Brian
I had the batteries checked by auto lec and also had a 50 amp circuit breaker replaced but no good
Was talking to Laurie at traveller in Echuca and he told me to check the voltage setting on the remote for the 12 volt and if set to high it will turn everything off
Will now have to wait till the next trip
Ken
Two Strays said
07:13 PM Jan 29, 2014
Mate
Keep it on the check list. One would hope the lecki did a load test.
Cheers
Phil C said
03:40 PM Jan 31, 2014
OK folks, I have had a quick look at the replies and discussion on this thread. Has anybody thought about RFI or radio frequency interference? We have the same problems with anything on the 12VDC line. Other than turning everything else off the best answer I can think of is go to one of the car accessory places and buy a RFI inline filter. Costs a pretty penny but worth it in the long run. Sit it in the circuit the radio, and TV run from. Should work a treat. Not too sure about voltage drop being the issue, however 4mm square multistrand wire should be OK for about 3 or 4 meters at 5amps thats 60 watts. I would be keen to hear of other ideas.
brian said
04:27 PM Jan 31, 2014
Quite often the reason that RFI and EMI becomes a problem is poor aerial connections which cause a weak signal that the interference can easily overcome.
Fix the aerial and the troubles go away.
There are numerous cheap ferrite clip on filters that may also help to reduce line interference.
03_troopy said
04:53 PM Jan 31, 2014
Loose or dirty connections/joints in your 12V system (Pos and NEG). Poor sheilding connections or centre conductor connections on your RF circuits (Radio or TV signal ciecuits). A long shot on the batteries being knackered if it's a relatively new van, but who knows, it could happen?
Phil C said
10:42 AM Feb 1, 2014
I agree with what has been said about RFI and EMI, however some DC motors can produce reactive sparking at the commutators and that will cause this problem every time. We have a small DC fan that can not be used when the TV is on due to that. Mind you all other considerations including ferrite TVI filters etc have been employed. This induction can be in the order of 1KV a 240V AC motor can induce a 10KV spark... food for thought?
brian said
06:29 PM Feb 1, 2014
Phil C wrote:
I agree with what has been said about RFI and EMI, however some DC motors can produce reactive sparking at the commutators and that will cause this problem every time. We have a small DC fan that can not be used when the TV is on due to that. Mind you all other considerations including ferrite TVI filters etc have been employed. This induction can be in the order of 1KV a 240V AC motor can induce a 10KV spark... food for thought?
I have always understood commutator sparking etc. to be included in the grouping of EMI radiation and was why I included it in my comment re. RFI.
Righto you lot I have a small problem with the 12V electrics in the new van, when you watch TV and turn on the fan in the shower the TV cuts out any ideas?? Problem number two when using the taps with the 12V pump (free camping) the lights flicker?? any suggestions to look at will be appreciated.
Hence 1 of the reasons that we have completely started again with a blank canvas.
Yes, sounds like voltage drop. Tvs use a few amps and a dedicated wire and fuse is usually called for. Bill
-- Edited by bill12 on Monday 27th of January 2014 04:07:36 PM
Hi;
Wolly's right. The cableing not handeling the current draw. It could also be that the house battery may be flat and need charging, Battery size may be to small OR the battery is old and needs replceing . Also the television would have a low voltage cut out and once the battery voltage has droped below the cut off point the set would shut down.
The water pump would draw quiet a few amps ( 10~15 Amps is not uncommon ) and cause the television to shut down and /or the caravan house lighting to pulse as when the water pump is running and battery voltage is low, the current draw would be even higher and then the battery voltage would be even lower and the pump motor would slow down ( and the load on the motor decrease ) . This would then cause the battery voltage to increase (due to the load decreaseing ) and the motor would then try and increase in speed and the load would then increase .And then the battery voltage then would take a nother dive. This voltage fluxuation is what causes the lights to flicker. If left in this state the pump would eventualy stall and could cause the motor to burn out. Most water pumps would have some type of fuse installed BUT at the lower voltage the fuse may not fail.
Gday...
I am a complete moron when it comes to electricity whether 12v or 240v, and Valiant81 your advice regarding Copper1's problem was very good.
However, did you actually read it out loud BEFORE you posted it?.... sort of confusing and goes around and around until the gist of it is finally absorbed after the third or more read.
Not exactly a 'lay-person-simple' explanation
Cheers - John
The bit that is concerning is Copper1 said in the "new van" surely the manufacturers wouldn't run 1 wire for tv & fan, 1 for pump & lights, how much does a few extra mtrs of wire cost really.
I expected it with mine for it was a cheap, cheap, cheap install & I knew that when i bought it.
-- Edited by Woolly on Monday 27th of January 2014 04:29:08 PM
Gee John, I thought it sounded soo good I have been trying to put music to it and maybe I would have a hit on my hands...lol
Keep an eye on the reading it should stay within specs ie a 12V battery should not drop below 11 - 11.5 V. If so then add up the power used by the devices
that were turned on and make sure they don't overload the battery rating.
Sometimes it is possible that manufacturers overlook the requirements of low voltage circuits in recreational equipment because it comes under auto electrical.
Anyhow I'm guessing here that either the batteries are under charged / insufficient rating or the wiring is too small for the current used. Keep in mind the ideal
12V wire size is around 8mm dia. I bet you yours is not that thick.
Another thought is maybe it's the dreaded EMF problem. When the TV goes off do you mean powers off or does it just lose the signal? Fans and pumps
are electric motors which produce large EMF (electromagnetic fields) which can and do disturb tiny TV signals. In RV's you can take to the bank that no manufacturer
of electrical gear shields them, why should they there are no or very weak regulations for 12Vdc equipment.
Good luck mate.
I have a similar problem but mine is no power at all when I wake up and after the sun has risen and on the solar panels all comes back on. The voltage on the solar controller in the morning shows 12.8-12.9 volts and the battery's are fully charged what the????
It is an intermittant problem as some days it is ok
Ken
I am with Cloak on this EMF problem ,I have a simler problem with my tele switch on a certain light witch is LED off goes the television ,and Copper 1 new van may have LED lights.
lance C
A quick look at a few local RV products makes me think the only sign off these days is from the accountant.
Cheers
Ex metrologist.
Hi all, and rocklizard;
Ok I'll try and make this a bit clearer for you . I used work in the electronic field and while i know what i'm talking about, trying to put that in to text, well lets say it's not one of my strong points , so this time I'll try and keep it simple.....
The basic 12 Volt television running off your house battery will draw about 4 ~ 5 amps and a bit more if the set has a DVD player installed. So we have a medium sort of load?.
As the load of a 12 Volt water pump that is fitted into your average caravan the draw would be in the order of 10 ~15 Amps, mine is fitted with a 15 Amp. Some of the higher pressure pumps the current draw is a lot higher, Some of the pressure pumps that farmers use to do a bit of spraying of chemicals,water based, well a 30 Amp fuse is fitted, small tankers fitted onto a small trailer etc.
Now depending on what type of battery that you have and there are many differant types out there the open ternimal voltage ( no load ) and nothing connected to the battery , should have a voltage of about 13.7 odd volts for a full charged battery and you only have to drop a couple of volts ( 11.5 ~ 10.5 ) and the battery would be basicly flat. At this lower voltage the battery could supply the current that the television would require, but when it come to trying to run the water pump as well as the television the battery voltage is 'pulled' even lower, television shuts down and the water pump would pulsate.
This pulsating would cause the battery voltage to rise and fall a fair bit and this rise and fall in voltage causes the lights to change in intensity ( brightness ). This is not realy a problem with a fully charged battery as the battery has the capacity to handle the load at the time, but if the battery is on the way out or 1/2 flat or even under sized for the job. This is why many caravans have two or more heavy duty battery fitted and the common size appears to be 100 A/H.
On a side note, a bus that i have been looking at and had been converted in to mobil home had a total of 8 x 12 volt batterys fitted and each battery was 200 A/H so we had a total of 1600 A/H . Also this mobil home had 720 Watts of solar panels fitted to the roof.
One of the biggest problems with 12 Volts is the capacity of the battery and also the size of the wireing, not a problem if you only have a few led lights, but a problem if you just want to run your television, But a real big problem if you are trying to start and run a 12 volt water pump. Start current would be a lot more amps than what the pump draws once the motor is running. Same as a car, it takes a lot more fuel to reach a speed of 100 Kms than it takes to maintain that speed.
How old are the battery and if you could beg /borrow a muilty meter and check the battery votage, like what ' cloak' has asked you to do.
I you are haveing problem with television recieption when you are running the water pump, the problem could be the antenna system in your caravan be the problem , and this is a real can of worms here, or the water pump is puting out hash ( on to the 12 wiring ) and the television internal power supply and/ or the digital tuner may not like the dirty voltage been feed to it
Thanks everyone for your input. Rockylizard Mate sorry if I confused you but my missus say's I am bad and my typing is SH#T
anyway Nelly hit the nail on the head it is a new van only a few months old so will get it looked at, and you would think the battery's would be top notch. But I thought in the short term as I am away in Tassie, I might be able to do a shonky repair or quick fix 
.
Thanks again everyone for your input and yes I have a multimeter so will do a few checks.
We have two ensuite vents with fans and since owning van either one of these used to interfere with the TV signal severely , so ended up fitting capacitor across terminals at the motor. This solved the problem but when one of the fan motors seized up and being told that a new one was close to $70 I replaced with a 120mm computer fan ($10) and this unit does not cause any signal degradation of the TV signals. Also instead of drawing close to 4 amps with the original unit it only draws around 1.2 amps.
Cheers Kev.
Hello All
I had a similiar problem. The problem was the batteries. They showed fully charged, but when the load came on, they would collapse, resulting in all 12volt equipment going kaput.
Check the battery condition, ie, do a load test first before heading off in other directions.
Happy caravanning
I had the batteries checked by auto lec and also had a 50 amp circuit breaker replaced but no good
Was talking to Laurie at traveller in Echuca and he told me to check the voltage setting on the remote for the 12 volt and if set to high it will turn everything off
Will now have to wait till the next trip
Ken
Mate
Keep it on the check list. One would hope the lecki did a load test.
Cheers
I have always understood commutator sparking etc. to be included in the grouping of EMI radiation and was why I included it in my comment re. RFI.