Hello everyone, I am having some issues with the weight of our caravan,
the story goes like this;
On the way home from our last winter trip I ran the rig over a weighbridge near home just to see what we were weighing in at and got the shock of my life.
GCM behind the Navara was ok but the van was 600kg over the ATM!
so when we got home I unloaded everything out of the Navara and weighed it then unloaded the van contents into the Navara.
Took the whole lot to the weighbridge and came up with the following: van contents= 340kg caravan tare 2440kg with no water, no gas, no genset and everything else was loaded in the Navara.
plated tare is 2100kg plated ATM is 2500kg ball weight was 140kg same as plated ball weight.
I have added 2 120w solar panels, a 5kg aluminium toolbox, a 5 kg pole carrier all up about 25-30kg.
so I have sent a polite email to the dealer requesting a revised tare and ATM.
don't know if I will do any good but had to try. Plan B will be a visit to a local engineer for an assessment and revised weights.
frank
bab600 said
02:34 PM Dec 2, 2013
Frank
we have just had the same problems, so while the van is having some warranty work done
after a 7 month trip we found ourselves 300kg over. When we took the van we thought we had 400kg but this didnt include the water and gas so what we are doing is having the vin plat adjusted (legally) thru Vic Roads.Uor tare weight for a 20ft. van was 2120kg and the ATM was 2520kg. Thus giving us the 400kg,when talking to the manufacturer they said rule of thumb SINGLE axle 300kg and DUEL axle 400kg and our chassis capicity is 2900kg so plenty of room to move. So we are going to 2720kg which covers our water ,gas, and now I CAN put my golf clubs in and catch bigger fish with out going over the limit in the van.
Hope this helps because I know what you are going thru
Regards Brian
PeterInSa said
03:02 PM Dec 2, 2013
Frank,
What about the water in the Hot Water System, did you empty that?
and some Cassette Toilets have there own rinse water if yours is similar you would need to empty this also.
Brian,
If your bearings, tyres, wheels, brakes, springs, axle and A frame were similar ie 2900Kg I would have updated to that figure, you do not need to use it, but its there just in case.
Peter
bab600 said
04:38 PM Dec 2, 2013
Peter
I agree with you 100% but there is someone I really should listen too (SWMBO)
but it also gives me a chance to say thats enough stuff !!!! and feel safe about it.
Regards Brian
KFT said
05:42 PM Dec 2, 2013
G'day Peter
yes mate, I emptied everything, HWS, toilet flushes from the main tank so as long as the cassette is empty.
cleared out under the bed and the front boot, everything out of the cupboards, except for some fiddly stuff like the cutlery, and few tins of fly spray and a roll of duct tape.
I am thinking the tare on the plate may not include things like the aircon, batteries, washing machine etc.
but I will have to wait and see what the dealer gets back to me with and go from there.
frank
Herb said
07:23 PM Dec 2, 2013
Hi guys,
I have often wonder this when you see caravans on the road with petrol/diesel containers, extra gas cylinders, larger storage boxes etc. I was talking to an engineer and he said in his experience most vans coming though his doors are over weight and this is partially due to water tanks. His reckoning, and I tend to agree, is that the weights given by caravan manufacturers are unrealistic for the average travelers loading and they should factor in water storage, awnings and full gas bottles into the tare weight or at least increase the atm. If they fit the water tanks, petrol container holders or even generator trays they should adjust the weight of the van to enable the new owner to load safely. If you consider a 90 ltr tank of water adds about 90kg to your van weight (Most vans I see have 2) and 2 x 9kg gas bottles add another 18 kg then without clothes, bedding, food, cutlery and pots, awnings, chairs, camp tables, BBQ's, generator you are already getting very close to have maximum permitted load. Now to make it worse add the tow vehicle loaded with extra fuel containers, second fridge, spare wheels, emergency spares kit, roof rack with shade awning and you really have a vehicle that is over the legal limits.
It prompts a couple of questions
Who would win a legal battle if you loaded the water tanks (180kg), gas cylinders (18kg), full fuel holders 2X 20kg), put your generator in compartment (45kg), tucked away your awning (40kg) and went through wight bridge and were over weight. Could you argue fit for purpose?
Is your tow vehicle really up to what you are towing?
I questioned what the tare had to include. response from caravan maker " Tare is the total weight of the van at manufacture with all items installed including washing machines, mattresses, roll out shades (not awnings) solar and batteries. It doesn't include anything added after manufacture like 'options' on sale. Their advice was too, PRIOR to buying, ask for the van to be put over weigh bridge and especially if you think it has been modified. Then make it a condition of sale it be re certified.
lol sometimes I wish I didnt ask the questions. I like you KFT put my van over a public weigh bridge and got a shock. Van weighed 2300kg and had a atm of 1860kg. Over the years previous owners had added bits and pieces.
KFT said
08:51 PM Dec 2, 2013
Thanks for your post Herb. and welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy a very relaxed place to ask questions and have some fun.
frank
mr glassies said
08:17 PM Dec 8, 2013
hi guys n gals
some interesting weights to remember im no expert or drip but i did the sums
your 9 kg gas bottle weighs close to 18 kgs full
water weighs 1 kg per ltr X 2 96 ltr tanks
my 6 volt 200 amp batteries weigh 48 kgs X 2 = 96 kgs
most vans a tare before this stuff is added so just with those 2 items you looses most of your gvm / gross load
i had my van upgraded before we bought it now we have a carrying capacity of 500 ks
i now have 4 water tanks and have a manifold system so if we know we wont need huge amounts of water we dont have to fill all tanks and balance the load better
plus i have a jockey wheel with scales so i can keep an eye on the drawbar weight .
there are 2 myths first one if you have a bad accident there wouldnt be enough left to weigh
and 2nd cops have to have scalies and vice versa to do a weight test on a tug and van
dont know about this one should ask a cop when i do a job with them
dibs
oldbobsbus said
06:51 AM Dec 9, 2013
mr glassies wrote:
hi guys n gals some interesting weights to remember im no expert or drip but i did the sums
your 9 kg gas bottle weighs close to 18 kgs full water weighs 1 kg per ltr X 2 96 ltr tanks my 6 volt 200 amp batteries weigh 48 kgs X 2 = 96 kgs most vans a tare before this stuff is added so just with those 2 items you looses most of your gvm / gross load i had my van upgraded before we bought it now we have a carrying capacity of 500 ks i now have 4 water tanks and have a manifold system so if we know we wont need huge amounts of water we dont have to fill all tanks and balance the load better plus i have a jockey wheel with scales so i can keep an eye on the drawbar weight .
there are 2 myths first one if you have a bad accident there wouldnt be enough left to weigh
and 2nd cops have to have scalies and vice versa to do a weight test on a tug and van dont know about this one should ask a cop when i do a job with them
dibs
I think that RMS in NSW can direct any vehicle they like into a weighing station and if they are over weight then the driver is in trouble...
Aside from that if you are overweight then you are either carrying too much or you need to get a unit that will allow you to carry everything you want..
We have a MH with a GVM of 9t but only weigh 7t when we are on the road with everything except a spare kitchen sink..
Plendo said
09:45 PM Dec 10, 2013
Thanks largely to this post I am now taking advantage of the capacity of the independent suspension, and have asked the van manufacturer to set the ATM on our van to 3,495kg regardless of the tare weight which we expect to be around 2,300 to 2,400kg.
This means that once I take delivery I need to worry less about the weight of the 1,200w of solar (about 30kg), and the extra batteries (75kg) that I am adding. I do not like adding the 30kg of solar weight high on the roof, but there is no choice, I have compensated somewhat by removing a 44Kg air conditioner from the roof.
It also means we have plenty of capacity to run our tanks full, and to take the tools and things we want to have available.
KFT said
01:55 PM Dec 14, 2013
Had a call from the manufacturer and he was at a loss to explain why the van tare was so high.
he offered to make me a new VIN plate with a revised ATM based on the axle and chassis capacity.
I had to express post him my plate and he made a new one and sent it the same day mine arrived in Melbourne.
I now have a 400kg load capacity where I previously only had 60kg which was next to useless.
I would call that excellent customer service on a caravan that is now 3 years old.
if we ever buy another I will insist on a weighbridge ticket before I accept the van.
The tare weight is supposed to include all factory fitted options.
much happier now.
frank
mr glassies said
03:37 PM Dec 15, 2013
hi kft you beter get hold of the manufacturer and get him to send the old plate back to yo or you will have trouble at the rta wen we upgaded ours we had trouble or should i say the cvan yard did now we have 2 the old and the new and both have to be fixed to the van.
dibs
KFT said
11:59 PM Dec 15, 2013
Hello mr glassies
apparently it is illegal to have two VIN plates for the same vehicle. He wanted the old one back so it could be destroyed once the new one was made.
He is supplying me with a letter for the RMS so the weights can be adjusted on the rego details.
I hope there will be no problems. he advised me he has done this with quite a few vans and had no problems doing things that way.
see how I go
frank
mr glassies said
06:59 PM Dec 16, 2013
hi kft where do you live m8
this to me sounds like the old 1 nation 100 policies nothing from state to state is much the same.
i just had a look and i have to vin plates same vin no different weight no . i know the yard we bought it of had to get the old one redone as they took it of and destroyed it and when they went to register it they were told to put the old one back on held us up 2 weeks on pickup.i hope you dont have problems m8 i to got a letter from the manufacturer but that went to the rta and they wouldnt give me a copy
bit like the brake away system i was told by the supplier in qld you dont need an in cab monitor but in nsw you do can someone correct me if im wrong
dibs
KFT said
07:20 PM Dec 16, 2013
Hi mr glassies,
I am in nsw m8.
the van is registered from new with the original weights on the rego. the new plate has the revised ATM and this is the only difference.
frank
mr glassies said
07:56 PM Dec 16, 2013
yup same as mine m8 im in qld
dibs
rockylizard said
04:08 PM Dec 17, 2013
KFT wrote:
~~~ The tare weight is supposed to include all factory fitted options.~~~
frank
Gday...
My two bob's worth ... strictly speaking that is not necessarily correct.
The TARE weight is what the manufacturer considers to be the "base" van. There is no regulation or requirement to include anything. It does not necessarily include very much at all ... or could include lots of things.
It is the same with your vehicle - the TARE (Kerb Weight) is arrived at by each manufacturer differently - some include full tank of fuel, others don't for instance.
If the manufacturer of the van decides, if ever and whenever they decide, that the TARE weight will not include gas bottles (full or empty), any water in anything, no awning (coz it is considered an extra) no washing machine, no rear bumper, no battery, no spare wheel/tyre etc etc then that is the TARE.
So in many ways it is caveat emptor.
The advice, as above by a couple of posters, is that the buyer should stipulate that the van will be weighed and plated with its TARE just prior to making the final payment and before it is driven it out of the yard by the buyer.
Cheers - John
KFT said
11:07 PM Dec 17, 2013
G'day John,
thanks for that info. I was under the impression that all the "standard" features and equipment in the van would be included in the tare weight.
If what you say is the case then how can they sell a van with only 60kg remaining before you reach ATM? methinks the ATM should be based on the real "delivery weight"
I am wondering if there is a standard on this.
frank
ozjohn said
10:36 AM Dec 18, 2013
Legal definition:
"Tare Mass is the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. This includes any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane. (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks fitted to caravans)".
The TARE MASS should be the mass of the van when it leaves the factory and include all items that were specified on the purchase order. i.e. Spare, mattresses, battery, solar, empty LPG cylinders, roll out awning etc. Any item added by a dealer, or owner will not be included in the TARE, but included in the vans Payload allowance.
Manufactures who plate vans with an inaccurate TARE MASS may very well be committing an offence 'Weights & Measures Act'. False declaration as to measures, weights, etc "No person shall, by means of words, description, or other indication, direct or indirect, make any false declaration or statement, or wilfully mislead any person as to the number, quantity, measure, gauge, or weight of any articles sold or delivered by him".
Cheers, Ozjohn.
-- Edited by ozjohn on Thursday 19th of December 2013 07:38:28 AM
KFT said
07:10 PM Dec 18, 2013
Thank you Ozjohn, you truly are a legend.
your post is exactly what I was looking for and explains to me and now also many others just what the true situation is.
my sincere thanks.
Hope you and your loved ones have a very happy Christmas and all the best to you for the new year.
frank
PeterD said
01:04 AM Dec 21, 2013
rockylizard wrote:It is the same with your vehicle - the TARE (Kerb Weight) is arrived at by each manufacturer differently - some include full tank of fuel, others don't for instance.
Tare mass and kerb weight are two different things. Some manufacturers do indeed weigh their product with a full fuel tank, they then refer to that as the kerb weight. They are not allowed to call it tare mass because the weight obtained does not fit the legal definition. OJ gave the definition that comes from "Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005 Compilation 4" (the document that is the basis of the definitions for ADRs) that has been extended in VSB-1 to make the definition clearer when used for caravans.)
Also when you take delivery of your tug the tare weight will be correct. When you add accessories the registration authorities do not requiire you to have your vehicle reweighed. The delivered tare weight remains the tare weight until you have some major modifications done that require engineering assessment and it has to be weighed again.
Your tare weight plus the weight of your your accessories is your kerb weight.
KFT said
10:44 PM Dec 30, 2013
went to the RMS agency in town today with my letter from the van manufacturer stating the new weight (ATM)
filled in a change of details form and boom. job done. and no charge.
so now I have a new VIN plate with the new ATM on it and my rego papers state the new weight.
Hello everyone, I am having some issues with the weight of our caravan,
the story goes like this;
On the way home from our last winter trip I ran the rig over a weighbridge near home just to see what we were weighing in at and got the shock of my life.
GCM behind the Navara was ok but the van was 600kg over the ATM!
so when we got home I unloaded everything out of the Navara and weighed it then unloaded the van contents into the Navara.
Took the whole lot to the weighbridge and came up with the following:
van contents= 340kg
caravan tare 2440kg with no water, no gas, no genset and everything else was loaded in the Navara.
plated tare is 2100kg
plated ATM is 2500kg
ball weight was 140kg same as plated ball weight.
I have added 2 120w solar panels, a 5kg aluminium toolbox, a 5 kg pole carrier all up about 25-30kg.
so I have sent a polite email to the dealer requesting a revised tare and ATM.
don't know if I will do any good but had to try. Plan B will be a visit to a local engineer for an assessment and revised weights.
frank
Frank
we have just had the same problems, so while the van is having some warranty work done
after a 7 month trip we found ourselves 300kg over. When we took the van we thought we had 400kg but this didnt include the water and gas so what we are doing is having the vin plat adjusted (legally) thru Vic Roads.Uor tare weight for a 20ft. van was 2120kg and the ATM was 2520kg. Thus giving us the 400kg,when talking to the manufacturer they said rule of thumb SINGLE axle 300kg and DUEL axle 400kg and our chassis capicity is 2900kg so plenty of room to move. So we are going to 2720kg which covers our water ,gas, and now I CAN put my golf clubs in and catch bigger fish with out going over the limit in the van.
Hope this helps because I know what you are going thru
Regards Brian
What about the water in the Hot Water System, did you empty that?
and some Cassette Toilets have there own rinse water if yours is similar you would need to empty this also.
Brian,
If your bearings, tyres, wheels, brakes, springs, axle and A frame were similar ie 2900Kg I would have updated to that figure, you do not need to use it, but its there just in case.
Peter
Peter
I agree with you 100% but there is someone I really should listen too (SWMBO)
but it also gives me a chance to say thats enough stuff !!!! and feel safe about it.
Regards Brian
yes mate, I emptied everything, HWS, toilet flushes from the main tank so as long as the cassette is empty.
cleared out under the bed and the front boot, everything out of the cupboards, except for some fiddly stuff like the cutlery, and few tins of fly spray and a roll of duct tape.
I am thinking the tare on the plate may not include things like the aircon, batteries, washing machine etc.
but I will have to wait and see what the dealer gets back to me with and go from there.
frank
I have often wonder this when you see caravans on the road with petrol/diesel containers, extra gas cylinders, larger storage boxes etc. I was talking to an engineer and he said in his experience most vans coming though his doors are over weight and this is partially due to water tanks. His reckoning, and I tend to agree, is that the weights given by caravan manufacturers are unrealistic for the average travelers loading and they should factor in water storage, awnings and full gas bottles into the tare weight or at least increase the atm. If they fit the water tanks, petrol container holders or even generator trays they should adjust the weight of the van to enable the new owner to load safely. If you consider a 90 ltr tank of water adds about 90kg to your van weight (Most vans I see have 2) and 2 x 9kg gas bottles add another 18 kg then without clothes, bedding, food, cutlery and pots, awnings, chairs, camp tables, BBQ's, generator you are already getting very close to have maximum permitted load. Now to make it worse add the tow vehicle loaded with extra fuel containers, second fridge, spare wheels, emergency spares kit, roof rack with shade awning and you really have a vehicle that is over the legal limits.
It prompts a couple of questions
Who would win a legal battle if you loaded the water tanks (180kg), gas cylinders (18kg), full fuel holders 2X 20kg), put your generator in compartment (45kg), tucked away your awning (40kg) and went through wight bridge and were over weight. Could you argue fit for purpose?
Is your tow vehicle really up to what you are towing?
I questioned what the tare had to include. response from caravan maker " Tare is the total weight of the van at manufacture with all items installed including washing machines, mattresses, roll out shades (not awnings) solar and batteries. It doesn't include anything added after manufacture like 'options' on sale. Their advice was too, PRIOR to buying, ask for the van to be put over weigh bridge and especially if you think it has been modified. Then make it a condition of sale it be re certified.
lol sometimes I wish I didnt ask the questions. I like you KFT put my van over a public weigh bridge and got a shock. Van weighed 2300kg and had a atm of 1860kg. Over the years previous owners had added bits and pieces.
frank
some interesting weights to remember im no expert or drip but i did the sums
your 9 kg gas bottle weighs close to 18 kgs full
water weighs 1 kg per ltr X 2 96 ltr tanks
my 6 volt 200 amp batteries weigh 48 kgs X 2 = 96 kgs
most vans a tare before this stuff is added so just with those 2 items you looses most of your gvm / gross load
i had my van upgraded before we bought it now we have a carrying capacity of 500 ks
i now have 4 water tanks and have a manifold system so if we know we wont need huge amounts of water we dont have to fill all tanks and balance the load better
plus i have a jockey wheel with scales so i can keep an eye on the drawbar weight .
there are 2 myths first one if you have a bad accident there wouldnt be enough left to weigh
and 2nd cops have to have scalies and vice versa to do a weight test on a tug and van
dont know about this one should ask a cop when i do a job with them
dibs
I think that RMS in NSW can direct any vehicle they like into a weighing station and if they are over weight then the driver is in trouble...
Aside from that if you are overweight then you are either carrying too much or you need to get a unit that will allow you to carry everything you want..
We have a MH with a GVM of 9t but only weigh 7t when we are on the road with everything except a spare kitchen sink..
Thanks largely to this post I am now taking advantage of the capacity of the independent suspension, and have asked the van manufacturer to set the ATM on our van to 3,495kg regardless of the tare weight which we expect to be around 2,300 to 2,400kg.
This means that once I take delivery I need to worry less about the weight of the 1,200w of solar (about 30kg), and the extra batteries (75kg) that I am adding. I do not like adding the 30kg of solar weight high on the roof, but there is no choice, I have compensated somewhat by removing a 44Kg air conditioner from the roof.
It also means we have plenty of capacity to run our tanks full, and to take the tools and things we want to have available.
he offered to make me a new VIN plate with a revised ATM based on the axle and chassis capacity.
I had to express post him my plate and he made a new one and sent it the same day mine arrived in Melbourne.
I now have a 400kg load capacity where I previously only had 60kg which was next to useless.
I would call that excellent customer service on a caravan that is now 3 years old.
if we ever buy another I will insist on a weighbridge ticket before I accept the van.
The tare weight is supposed to include all factory fitted options.
much happier now.
frank
dibs
apparently it is illegal to have two VIN plates for the same vehicle. He wanted the old one back so it could be destroyed once the new one was made.
He is supplying me with a letter for the RMS so the weights can be adjusted on the rego details.
I hope there will be no problems. he advised me he has done this with quite a few vans and had no problems doing things that way.
see how I go
frank
this to me sounds like the old 1 nation 100 policies nothing from state to state is much the same.
i just had a look and i have to vin plates same vin no different weight no . i know the yard we bought it of had to get the old one redone as they took it of and destroyed it and when they went to register it they were told to put the old one back on held us up 2 weeks on pickup.i hope you dont have problems m8 i to got a letter from the manufacturer but that went to the rta and they wouldnt give me a copy
bit like the brake away system i was told by the supplier in qld you dont need an in cab monitor but in nsw you do can someone correct me if im wrong
dibs
I am in nsw m8.
the van is registered from new with the original weights on the rego. the new plate has the revised ATM and this is the only difference.
frank
dibs
Gday...
My two bob's worth ... strictly speaking that is not necessarily correct.
The TARE weight is what the manufacturer considers to be the "base" van. There is no regulation or requirement to include anything. It does not necessarily include very much at all ... or could include lots of things.
It is the same with your vehicle - the TARE (Kerb Weight) is arrived at by each manufacturer differently - some include full tank of fuel, others don't for instance.
If the manufacturer of the van decides, if ever and whenever they decide, that the TARE weight will not include gas bottles (full or empty), any water in anything, no awning (coz it is considered an extra) no washing machine, no rear bumper, no battery, no spare wheel/tyre etc etc then that is the TARE.
So in many ways it is caveat emptor.
The advice, as above by a couple of posters, is that the buyer should stipulate that the van will be weighed and plated with its TARE just prior to making the final payment and before it is driven it out of the yard by the buyer.
Cheers - John
thanks for that info. I was under the impression that all the "standard" features and equipment in the van would be included in the tare weight.
If what you say is the case then how can they sell a van with only 60kg remaining before you reach ATM? methinks the ATM should be based on the real "delivery weight"
I am wondering if there is a standard on this.
frank
Legal definition:
"Tare Mass is the total mass of the trailer when not carrying any load, but when ready for service, unoccupied (if relevant) and with all fluid reservoirs (if fitted) filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted. This includes any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane. (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks fitted to caravans)".
The TARE MASS should be the mass of the van when it leaves the factory and include all items that were specified on the purchase order. i.e. Spare, mattresses, battery, solar, empty LPG cylinders, roll out awning etc. Any item added by a dealer, or owner will not be included in the TARE, but included in the vans Payload allowance.
Manufactures who plate vans with an inaccurate TARE MASS may very well be committing an offence 'Weights & Measures Act'.
False declaration as to measures, weights, etc
"No person shall, by means of words, description, or other indication, direct or indirect, make any false declaration or statement, or wilfully mislead any person as to the number, quantity, measure, gauge, or weight of any articles sold or delivered by him".
Cheers, Ozjohn.
-- Edited by ozjohn on Thursday 19th of December 2013 07:38:28 AM
your post is exactly what I was looking for and explains to me and now also many others just what the true situation is.
my sincere thanks.
Hope you and your loved ones have a very happy Christmas and all the best to you for the new year.
frank
Tare mass and kerb weight are two different things. Some manufacturers do indeed weigh their product with a full fuel tank, they then refer to that as the kerb weight. They are not allowed to call it tare mass because the weight obtained does not fit the legal definition. OJ gave the definition that comes from "Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005 Compilation 4" (the document that is the basis of the definitions for ADRs) that has been extended in VSB-1 to make the definition clearer when used for caravans.)
Also when you take delivery of your tug the tare weight will be correct. When you add accessories the registration authorities do not requiire you to have your vehicle reweighed. The delivered tare weight remains the tare weight until you have some major modifications done that require engineering assessment and it has to be weighed again.
Your tare weight plus the weight of your your accessories is your kerb weight.
filled in a change of details form and boom. job done. and no charge.
so now I have a new VIN plate with the new ATM on it and my rego papers state the new weight.
hopefully all will be well from here.
frank