So, being as I'm going to hit the road full time next year (subject to house selling), I'm flirting with the idea of a bigger used caravan. ive found one with front n back tool boxes, solar panels, inverter etc etc.
Due to having a Prado, I'm limited in tare weight, and I'm looking at a Coromal with full ensuite. Likely a Lifestyle model. The tare is hardly more than my current van.
so I do some research and all says to look underneath. So I look at one today, but a Princeton ( too big for my needs, but a good experience for viewing) . A 2006 girl and the state of the inside totally put me off. However, when I looked underneath it looked really good.
But there's the thing. It looked clean, like really clean underneath, but personally my Jayco poptop looks meatier underneath, ie the leaf springs For starters. Not that I know much about it really. I'm not even sure they're called leaf springs, cos I'm a visual person and not a technical name rememberer. But Jayco showed me how to check the suspension etc so I have some idea. My Jayco appears to have more leaf springs than the Coromal Princeton and it's a way smaller van. My logic is.... More springs = better suspension?????
So I ask the question, what exactly should I be looking for? Also, I've read the Lifestyle is subject to internal leaks from rain. How do I check for that?
And while I'm at it, has anyone fitted a small slide out tool box to the back of their jayco caravan? To carry a genny, cos it stuffs my back a bit trying to put the genny in the front boot. I'm considering sticking to my van, with upgrades of solar panels, annexe (for dogs) picnic table, rear tool box etc etc. my van is a jayco sterling poptop, 2009 and in brill condition inside n Out, and she's become the devil I know!!! And I know that I can tow her in strong winds across the Nullarbor with no probs even with road trains . I like that about my van.
Ive waffled as usual, but all opinions greatly appreciated.
thank you
-- Edited by Triple333 on Monday 4th of November 2013 07:12:11 PM
Olley46 said
05:59 AM Nov 5, 2013
There is a few things to look for, a cracked a frame, flat springs, and if it is a tandem axle check the shackle bushes in the springs where they walk, in between the two wheels,someone will probly sugessed more things.that is about all I can think of ,best of luck in your hunting. Triple333
Lance C
hako said
07:04 AM Nov 5, 2013
You really need to get a prospective van checked out by someone with some experience. Whilst plenty of people on this forum will know what to look for, it's virtually impossible to pass that on by written word if you get my drift. I also would not take too much notice of the tare of a prospective van - it's the ATM that you will need to know.
Good Luck.
Keith19837 said
04:02 PM Nov 5, 2013
Triple333 wrote:
And while I'm at it, has anyone fitted a small slide out tool box to the back of their jayco caravan? To carry a genny, cos it stuffs my back a bit trying to put the genny in the front boot. I'm considering sticking to my van, with upgrades of solar panels, annexe (for dogs) picnic table, rear tool box etc etc. my van is a jayco sterling poptop, 2009 and in brill condition inside n Out, and she's become the devil I know!!! And I know that I can tow her in strong winds across the Nullarbor with no probs even with road trains . I like that about my van.
Ive waffled as usual, but all opinions greatly appreciated.
thank you
-- Edited by Triple333 on Monday 4th of November 2013 07:12:11 PM
G'day 333. Re fitting things at the rear of a van, one needs to be mindful of the pendulum effect. Any weight attached to the back of a towed vehicle will increase the amount of 'sway' when cornering. Extra spare tyres, gas bottles etc can cause your van, trailer, boat to slide due to this extra weight. The weight does not have to be particularly heavy, it is merely the fact that it has bee placed at the extreme end. This phenomenum is akin to an old fashioned clock pendulum, where the more weight added to the pendulum the further it will swing. Have a look at what Collyn RIVERS has to say on the subject on his collyn rivers articles site. When I tow my boat, I have a small auxiliary outboard which attached to the stern. It weighs about the same as a 2 - 3 Kw genny. When I leave it attached the 'sway' is much more pronounced; and if I have it tilted 'up', the effect is even further pronounced. Is there a space underneath the side where you can install a slide out?
For what it's worth.
Baz421 said
10:04 PM Nov 5, 2013
Keith19837 wrote:
When I tow my boat, I have a small auxiliary outboard which attached to the stern. It weighs about the same as a 2 - 3 Kw genny. When I leave it attached the 'sway' is much more pronounced; and if I have it tilted 'up', the effect is even further pronounced.
Keith I respectfully suggest you move your axle back 25-50mm to try to stabilise the trailer. You are just waiting for the right conditions to have nasty surprise.
Keith19837 said
03:29 AM Nov 6, 2013
Baz421 wrote:
Keith19837 wrote:
When I tow my boat, I have a small auxiliary outboard which attached to the stern. It weighs about the same as a 2 - 3 Kw genny. When I leave it attached the 'sway' is much more pronounced; and if I have it tilted 'up', the effect is even further pronounced.
Keith I respectfully suggest you move your axle back 25-50mm to try to stabilise the trailer. You are just waiting for the right conditions to have nasty surprise.
Thanks Baz. I don't usually leave the motor on except when bringing her out of the water and the 500 metres home. She's fine W/O the motor. I was just illustrating the point of weight hanging off the back of a trailed vehicle.
wendyv said
04:41 AM Nov 6, 2013
As Keith has said, hanging any weight off the back of the van - that it was not originally built to take - is a very bad idea.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
countryroad said
05:04 AM Nov 6, 2013
you know you'll be relegated to the generator corner if it's on for long and at the wrong time. !!!
Baz421 said
05:52 AM Nov 6, 2013
wendyv wrote:
As Keith has said, hanging any weight off the back of the van - that it was not originally built to take - is a very bad idea.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
Wendy I think you may not understand the issue here. There have been previous threads that have dealt with this in detail and we should not rule things in/out base don emotive issues or unsustantialiated claims.
If I put a 30kg genny on the back of my van that would be only 1% of the total weight of the van. This is not likely to effect the dynamic stability of the van.
Ontos45 said
10:17 AM Nov 6, 2013
Baz421 wrote:
wendyv wrote:
As Keith has said, hanging any weight off the back of the van - that it was not originally built to take - is a very bad idea.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
Wendy I think you may not understand the issue here. There have been previous threads that have dealt with this in detail and we should not rule things in/out base don emotive issues or unsustantialiated claims.
If I put a 30kg genny on the back of my van that would be only 1% of the total weight of the van. This is not likely to effect the dynamic stability of the van.
Baz421 your wrong there mate.
Its called "table of moments", that is, weight x distance from pivot point. The pivot point is the centre of your axle times the distance to the weight. Its an aeronautical equation to find the centre of gravity in an aircraft or any central sprung vehicle.
So if your 30kg generator is 3metres from the axle centre it weighs 30x3= 90kg. Makes a difference now don't it....lol.
It also should include the height from the base line, the horizontal line following ground level in a caravan, say, floor level. The 3 measurements gives the mass pivoting about the centre point. If you do the calculation for all mass, front and back, they should be all equal to the Centre of Gravity, CG. with the front mass being 10% - 12% more than the rear to give you ball weight.
(used to design model aircraft and hovercraft as a hobby)
Peter
-- Edited by Ontos45 on Wednesday 6th of November 2013 10:20:48 AM
Baz421 said
09:17 PM Nov 6, 2013
Ontos45 wrote:
Baz421 wrote:
wendyv wrote:
As Keith has said, hanging any weight off the back of the van - that it was not originally built to take - is a very bad idea.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
Wendy I think you may not understand the issue here. There have been previous threads that have dealt with this in detail and we should not rule things in/out base don emotive issues or unsustantialiated claims.
If I put a 30kg genny on the back of my van that would be only 1% of the total weight of the van. This is not likely to effect the dynamic stability of the van.
Baz421 your wrong there mate.
Its called "table of moments", that is, weight x distance from pivot point. The pivot point is the centre of your axle times the distance to the weight. Its an aeronautical equation to find the centre of gravity in an aircraft or any central sprung vehicle.
So if your 30kg generator is 3metres from the axle centre it weighs 30x3= 90kg. Makes a difference now don't it....lol.
It also should include the height from the base line, the horizontal line following ground level in a caravan, say, floor level. The 3 measurements gives the mass pivoting about the centre point. If you do the calculation for all mass, front and back, they should be all equal to the Centre of Gravity, CG. with the front mass being 10% - 12% more than the rear to give you ball weight.
(used to design model aircraft and hovercraft as a hobby)
Peter
-- Edited by Ontos45 on Wednesday 6th of November 2013 10:20:48 AM
Peter the point I was trying to make, in simple terms is, we could have stores inside the van of 30kg and no one thinks about it for one second. Add a genny and it becomes almost hysterical.
Using your calculations every van's axles would be overloaded on the road every day going over everday bumps etc,,, I was referring to dynamic stability (the handling) not the forces and balance or lack thereof, and 30 will in practice make no difference ON THE ROAD, whereas in the air it may.
Agree it's not simple and manufacturers don't necessarily follow any "rules".
-- Edited by Baz421 on Wednesday 6th of November 2013 09:18:48 PM
Aus-Kiwi said
04:30 AM Nov 7, 2013
A little like that with forklifts too .. Load wise..
Ontos45 said
05:52 PM Nov 7, 2013
Even Bush Trackers break backs......taken near Innamincka in 2010.....bad loading can kill a holiday.
Even Bush Trackers break backs......taken near Innamincka in 2010.....bad loading can kill a holiday.
Peter
Why did it rollover,, do you know what happenned?
Ontos45 said
05:29 PM Nov 8, 2013
Baz421 wrote:
Ontos45 wrote:
Even Bush Trackers break backs......taken near Innamincka in 2010.....bad loading can kill a holiday.
Peter
Why did it rollover,, do you know what happenned?
From what we heard from Innamincka was that the 4x4 tug was speeding over "jump-ups", the driver lost control, hit his brakes (we saw braking marks in gravel) and the whole shooting match went over. The only thing that saved the 4x4 was the full articulated trig hitch. The van when we stopped was as is seen in picture with all personal gear still in van and on ground, abandoned.
Peter
Baz421 said
11:55 PM Nov 8, 2013
Ontos45 wrote:
Baz421 wrote:
Ontos45 wrote:
Even Bush Trackers break backs......taken near Innamincka in 2010.....bad loading can kill a holiday.
Peter
Why did it rollover,, do you know what happenned?
From what we heard from Innamincka was that the 4x4 tug was speeding over "jump-ups", the driver lost control, hit his brakes (we saw braking marks in gravel) and the whole shooting match went over. The only thing that saved the 4x4 was the full articulated trig hitch. The van when we stopped was as is seen in picture with all personal gear still in van and on ground, abandoned.
Peter
Hi Peter,,, so the cause is probably bad driving rather than bad loading in this case,, eh.
Ontos45 said
05:44 PM Nov 9, 2013
All ways wondered about the bush tracker mate, its ATM, from what I remember is 3.5T to 4T and needs a big tug. Built well and big which leads people to think they are bullet proof and over load them. Seen them with tinnies on roof rack of tug and fold-up boat trailer and out board on rear bumper of van. Sure yu've seen the same. I like at least 1/2T between my ATM and suspension components/chassis load limit.
Bad driving or bad loading impossible to say not seeing it in real time.....posted the picture more as a warning to what can happen either way to top of the range vans so be carefull folks.
Peter
Ontos45 said
06:46 PM Nov 9, 2013
Couple more for you Baz.
This was when we had to get out of Birdsville during the 2010 floods. First time Cup was cancelled.
And while I'm at it, has anyone fitted a small slide out tool box to the back of their jayco caravan? To carry a genny, cos it stuffs my back a bit trying to put the genny in the front boot. I'm considering sticking to my van, with upgrades of solar panels, annexe (for dogs) picnic table, rear tool box etc etc. my van is a jayco sterling poptop, 2009 and in brill condition inside n Out, and she's become the devil I know!!! And I know that I can tow her in strong winds across the Nullarbor with no probs even with road trains . I like that about my van.
Ive waffled as usual, but all opinions greatly appreciated.
thank you
-- Edited by Triple333 on Monday 4th of November 2013 07:12:11 PM
G'day 333. Re fitting things at the rear of a van, one needs to be mindful of the pendulum effect. Any weight attached to the back of a towed vehicle will increase the amount of 'sway' when cornering. Extra spare tyres, gas bottles etc can cause your van, trailer, boat to slide due to this extra weight. The weight does not have to be particularly heavy, it is merely the fact that it has bee placed at the extreme end. This phenomenum is akin to an old fashioned clock pendulum, where the more weight added to the pendulum the further it will swing. Have a look at what Collyn RIVERS has to say on the subject on his collyn rivers articles site. When I tow my boat, I have a small auxiliary outboard which attached to the stern. It weighs about the same as a 2 - 3 Kw genny. When I leave it attached the 'sway' is much more pronounced; and if I have it tilted 'up', the effect is even further pronounced. Is there a space underneath the side where you can install a slide out?
For what it's worth.
Thanks for that feed back. Makes sense. And so I read your post and realised the ATM on used vans was factory ..... however, that didn't cover the tool boxes etc. They were modifications. So now I'm looking at options and really appreciate your logic.
Triple333 said
04:29 AM Nov 10, 2013
wendyv wrote:
As Keith has said, hanging any weight off the back of the van - that it was not originally built to take - is a very bad idea.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
Yes, i must carry a genny. Cos i already have one due to regular power outages at home!!!! And, cos if I have a flat battery on the car, my genny will get me going. But I really appreciate your comment and I'm looking now at different vans to accommodate this. And solar panels.
I just will feel naked without Miss G
Triple333 said
04:36 AM Nov 10, 2013
Ontos45 wrote:
Baz421 wrote:
wendyv wrote:
As Keith has said, hanging any weight off the back of the van - that it was not originally built to take - is a very bad idea.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
Wendy I think you may not understand the issue here. There have been previous threads that have dealt with this in detail and we should not rule things in/out base don emotive issues or unsustantialiated claims.
If I put a 30kg genny on the back of my van that would be only 1% of the total weight of the van. This is not likely to effect the dynamic stability of the van.
Baz421 your wrong there mate.
Its called "table of moments", that is, weight x distance from pivot point. The pivot point is the centre of your axle times the distance to the weight. Its an aeronautical equation to find the centre of gravity in an aircraft or any central sprung vehicle.
So if your 30kg generator is 3metres from the axle centre it weighs 30x3= 90kg. Makes a difference now don't it....lol.
It also should include the height from the base line, the horizontal line following ground level in a caravan, say, floor level. The 3 measurements gives the mass pivoting about the centre point. If you do the calculation for all mass, front and back, they should be all equal to the Centre of Gravity, CG. with the front mass being 10% - 12% more than the rear to give you ball weight.
(used to design model aircraft and hovercraft as a hobby)
Peter
-- Edited by Ontos45 on Wednesday 6th of November 2013 10:20:48 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I'm liking the knowledge. I'm now looking at differents vans and blowing the minds of the sales guys, who normally ignore me cos I'm single female. I'm freaking them out with the suggestions. When I go back the second time that is. They don't acknowledge me til the second time. ..... just the way it is!
Triple333 said
04:41 AM Nov 10, 2013
countryroad wrote:
you know you'll be relegated to the generator corner if it's on for long and at the wrong time. !!!
I know! I like to think I'm very respectful. I dont use it too often, and I do ask folk around me if they object. and I run it in the day, for a short time, if needs be, when most folk are off exploring....
Triple333 said
04:49 AM Nov 10, 2013
Major thank you to all of you for your input. Hehe, had the sales guys going today with that info while looking at caravans. And they thought I was a silly woman with interior colour schemes in mind. you made me look slightly intelligent. Much appreciated, and i may pm you for further advice if that's ok. Or I'll just add it to the forum for further debate.
thanks again,
Sal
Triple333 said
05:03 AM Nov 10, 2013
hako wrote:
You really need to get a prospective van checked out by someone with some experience. Whilst plenty of people on this forum will know what to look for, it's virtually impossible to pass that on by written word if you get my drift. I also would not take too much notice of the tare of a prospective van - it's the ATM that you will need to know. Good Luck.
Thanks Hako, yes, i'm appreciating that fact. particularly when it's had modifications and isnt the same as the original factory tare and atm. I hadn't really thought of it until you mentioned it.
Ah, forums are good.
Thanks again
ken thomas said
01:18 AM Nov 13, 2013
Hello Sally
Just look in the nomads classifieds and you will find exactly what you are looking for (in Vic with Dun Wurkun on it)
Ken
So, being as I'm going to hit the road full time next year (subject to house selling), I'm flirting with the idea of a bigger used caravan. ive found one with front n back tool boxes, solar panels, inverter etc etc.
Due to having a Prado, I'm limited in tare weight, and I'm looking at a Coromal with full ensuite. Likely a Lifestyle model. The tare is hardly more than my current van.
so I do some research and all says to look underneath. So I look at one today, but a Princeton ( too big for my needs, but a good experience for viewing) . A 2006 girl and the state of the inside totally put me off. However, when I looked underneath it looked really good.
But there's the thing. It looked clean, like really clean underneath, but personally my Jayco poptop looks meatier underneath, ie the leaf springs For starters. Not that I know much about it really. I'm not even sure they're called leaf springs, cos I'm a visual person and not a technical name rememberer. But Jayco showed me how to check the suspension etc so I have some idea. My Jayco appears to have more leaf springs than the Coromal Princeton and it's a way smaller van. My logic is.... More springs = better suspension?????
So I ask the question, what exactly should I be looking for? Also, I've read the Lifestyle is subject to internal leaks from rain. How do I check for that?
And while I'm at it, has anyone fitted a small slide out tool box to the back of their jayco caravan? To carry a genny, cos it stuffs my back a bit trying to put the genny in the front boot. I'm considering sticking to my van, with upgrades of solar panels, annexe (for dogs) picnic table, rear tool box etc etc. my van is a jayco sterling poptop, 2009 and in brill condition inside n Out, and she's become the devil I know!!! And I know that I can tow her in strong winds across the Nullarbor with no probs even with road trains . I like that about my van.
Ive waffled as usual, but all opinions greatly appreciated.
thank you
-- Edited by Triple333 on Monday 4th of November 2013 07:12:11 PM
Lance C
Good Luck.
G'day 333. Re fitting things at the rear of a van, one needs to be mindful of the pendulum effect. Any weight attached to the back of a towed vehicle will increase the amount of 'sway' when cornering. Extra spare tyres, gas bottles etc can cause your van, trailer, boat to slide due to this extra weight. The weight does not have to be particularly heavy, it is merely the fact that it has bee placed at the extreme end. This phenomenum is akin to an old fashioned clock pendulum, where the more weight added to the pendulum the further it will swing. Have a look at what Collyn RIVERS has to say on the subject on his collyn rivers articles site. When I tow my boat, I have a small auxiliary outboard which attached to the stern. It weighs about the same as a 2 - 3 Kw genny. When I leave it attached the 'sway' is much more pronounced; and if I have it tilted 'up', the effect is even further pronounced. Is there a space underneath the side where you can install a slide out?
For what it's worth.
Keith I respectfully suggest you move your axle back 25-50mm to try to stabilise the trailer. You are just waiting for the right conditions to have nasty surprise.
Thanks Baz. I don't usually leave the motor on except when bringing her out of the water and the 500 metres home. She's fine W/O the motor. I was just illustrating the point of weight hanging off the back of a trailed vehicle.
Adding anything to the A frame in front may affect your ball weight - so before you act, check how much leeway you have with existing ball weight Vs your vehicles allowable one. It too may affect towing characteristics. Will your A frame be strong enough to take the extra weight witjhout cracking?
Must you have a generator? Can you not adapt your power needs so that solar panels will do?
Wendy I think you may not understand the issue here. There have been previous threads that have dealt with this in detail and we should not rule things in/out base don emotive issues or unsustantialiated claims.
If I put a 30kg genny on the back of my van that would be only 1% of the total weight of the van. This is not likely to effect the dynamic stability of the van.
Baz421 your wrong there mate.
Its called "table of moments", that is, weight x distance from pivot point. The pivot point is the centre of your axle times the distance to the weight. Its an aeronautical equation to find the centre of gravity in an aircraft or any central sprung vehicle.
So if your 30kg generator is 3metres from the axle centre it weighs 30x3= 90kg. Makes a difference now don't it....lol.
It also should include the height from the base line, the horizontal line following ground level in a caravan, say, floor level. The 3 measurements gives the mass pivoting about the centre point. If you do the calculation for all mass, front and back, they should be all equal to the Centre of Gravity, CG. with the front mass being 10% - 12% more than the rear to give you ball weight.
(used to design model aircraft and hovercraft as a hobby)
Peter
-- Edited by Ontos45 on Wednesday 6th of November 2013 10:20:48 AM
Peter the point I was trying to make, in simple terms is, we could have stores inside the van of 30kg and no one thinks about it for one second. Add a genny and it becomes almost hysterical.
Using your calculations every van's axles would be overloaded on the road every day going over everday bumps etc,,, I was referring to dynamic stability (the handling) not the forces and balance or lack thereof, and 30 will in practice make no difference ON THE ROAD, whereas in the air it may.
Agree it's not simple and manufacturers don't necessarily follow any "rules".
-- Edited by Baz421 on Wednesday 6th of November 2013 09:18:48 PM
Even Bush Trackers break backs......taken near Innamincka in 2010.....bad loading can kill a holiday.
Peter
Why did it rollover,, do you know what happenned?
From what we heard from Innamincka was that the 4x4 tug was speeding over "jump-ups", the driver lost control, hit his brakes (we saw braking marks in gravel) and the whole shooting match went over. The only thing that saved the 4x4 was the full articulated trig hitch. The van when we stopped was as is seen in picture with all personal gear still in van and on ground, abandoned.
Peter
Hi Peter,,, so the cause is probably bad driving rather than bad loading in this case,, eh.
Bad driving or bad loading impossible to say not seeing it in real time.....posted the picture more as a warning to what can happen either way to top of the range vans so be carefull folks.
Peter
Couple more for you Baz.
This was when we had to get out of Birdsville during the 2010 floods. First time Cup was cancelled.
Peter
Thanks for that feed back. Makes sense. And so I read your post and realised the ATM on used vans was factory ..... however, that didn't cover the tool boxes etc. They were modifications. So now I'm looking at options and really appreciate your logic.
Yes, i must carry a genny. Cos i already have one due to regular power outages at home!!!! And, cos if I have a flat battery on the car, my genny will get me going. But I really appreciate your comment and I'm looking now at different vans to accommodate this. And solar panels.
I just will feel naked without Miss G
Thanks for the feedback. I'm liking the knowledge. I'm now looking at differents vans and blowing the minds of the sales guys, who normally ignore me cos I'm single female. I'm freaking them out with the suggestions. When I go back the second time that is. They don't acknowledge me til the second time. ..... just the way it is!
I know! I like to think I'm very respectful. I dont use it too often, and I do ask folk around me if they object. and I run it in the day, for a short time, if needs be, when most folk are off exploring....
thanks again,
Sal
Thanks Hako, yes, i'm appreciating that fact. particularly when it's had modifications and isnt the same as the original factory tare and atm. I hadn't really thought of it until you mentioned it.
Ah, forums are good.
Thanks again
Just look in the nomads classifieds and you will find exactly what you are looking for (in Vic with Dun Wurkun on it)
Ken