While staying at a Caravan Park in the Flinders noticed that the "Large Autogas Tank" was fitted with a Bottom Pipe Fitting which was setup to "Refill" Portable Camping Cylinders. Then when talking with another Nth Flinders Park owner that the Gas delivered is the same used for the "Autogas" and the "Refilling of Portable Cylinders" and the price charged to him was the same for both.
So all the talk of the Two gases being a different gas by the Authorities is a misconception, even though Propane is supposedly the only LP gas used in Portable or fixed house type cylinders in Australia and that Butane is used mainly Overseas although it needs to be used in the Autogas as an Octane Improver. Around Australia there is different amounts of Butane percentages used in the Autogas they say depending on what State, Seasons and Excess Supply which sometimes can affect the performance of engines.
So if these different proportions are used in the wrong temperature range problems can occur and with Butane it's "Minimum Vapour Boiling Point" is -0.5 Degrees where as Propane has a MVB Point of -42 Degrees. Why then are they allowed to use the Autogas to fill bottles as it has a higher percentage of Butane for Auto Engine use for Octane improvement as it has a slightly higher Calorific Heat Value than Propane. Whilst filling the bottles with Autogas are they passing on the savings of the cheaper gas or the over-inflated price of the so called Propane Gas. There is obviously some rather large Dollars being pocketed from these practises which have been occurring for many years.
As always the consumer is bled for easy money by the Authorities, Fuel Companies and Retailers for a Gas that our Governments allow to be sold to Foreign Countries for miserly amounts per tonne.
Interested in your thoughts and ideas on this matter.
Thanks Kev.
Dougwe said
10:04 AM Jul 20, 2013
Interesting subject. My Prado survives on Petrol/Gas and have found that once you get away from very large towns in the northern states it is hard to get Auto LPG. In fact on my way up the middle from Melbourne to Townsville I found once in Q'land I had to stay on petrol all the time. I just couldn't risk if gas was going to be available in the next town. Here in Townsville I am not getting anywhere near the economy that I do down south for some reason, not that it's all that good at the best of times.
I have heard different opinions about the two gases. I have actually seen a truck filling up the auto gas tank at a servo then hook onto anther smaller tank for camping cylinders. You work that one out.
Petrol, well I normally run on 91% but again for some reason here in Townsville the Prado doesn't like 91% so have had to use 98% when running on petrol. I have always used 98% once a month at home to keep things clean.
-- Edited by Dougwe on Saturday 20th of July 2013 10:06:39 AM
jules47 said
03:49 PM Jul 20, 2013
Interesting Kev - good to see you on site as well. We are in Townsville, heading to Alice, then south through the Flinders across to do some of the Murray - flying into Launceston at end of February to go to Peacefest!!!!!! Say g'day to Kim for us!
PeterD said
05:03 PM Jul 20, 2013
Kev, in outback areas it is common for the one truck to deliver pure propane to both services. However you can not guarantee getting pure propane in all cases. If the distributor is supplying both LPG and auto gas it's up to him to deliver the correct gas to the LPG customers/re fillers.
Regarding refilling your own bottles, there is no approved equipment an sale in Oz for you to do it. Imported equipment you bring in has no guarantee of passing any Oz standards if there were any. You may be capable of filling your bottles but there are so many Richard craniums out there thou will do silly things we just have to toe the line and use re fillers.
ozjohn said
05:05 PM Jul 20, 2013
I live a few Km's from the largest Wholesale LPG outlet in the country. Long Island Terminal in Hastings, and can see the flames from the refinery stacks burning off impurities 24/7. And while they're similar there is a difference between Propane and Auto Gas. Propane is Auto gas that has been refined to remove butane and other impurities to give a clean burning, low emission gas with known performance levels. Auto Gas is the dirty propane in it's raw state and contains a large amounts of impurities with variable combustion rates. In some areas, especially outlying ones it's not economical to transport both products and therefore they will transport Propane and use it to fill both Propane tanks and the large Auto Gas bulk storage cylinders. In this case the Auto gas users will get the cleaner product. My biggest bitch though is that most places that have the cleaner Propane charge more per litre for filling a BBQ cylinder than they do per litre for a LPG Vehicle. Cheers, ozjohn.
Legendts said
07:47 PM Jul 20, 2013
Sorry ozjohn but I have to disagree. When I worked at Esso's fractionation plant in Hastings, actually commissioned it as well, there was no such thing as "dirty" or unrefined anything other than the arriving raw gas mixture. Propane was 99+% pure as was Butane. Ethane was piped across the bay, as was crude oil. The gas arrived from the Longford plant via pipeline as a mixture of all these gases plus a trace of Methane, or natural gas. The Methane is removed at Longford and piped to Dandenong for distribution into the Victorian gas grid, or used to be and assume it still is. The crude was obviously piped separately into the plant and held in storage tanks prior to being pumped to refineries in Altona. Road tankers arrived at LIP (Long Island Point) and loaded either Propane or Butane and an odourant was added to give the gas a smell to allow any potential leaks to be picked up. Any mixtures of either of these gases, if at all, would have been done elsewhere but I have never heard of any.
allinone said
03:06 AM Jul 23, 2013
I always have my bottles refilled at the appropriate facility. Perhaps this explains why sometimes the flame is bluer and sometimes it is oranger?
George said
05:25 PM Jul 23, 2013
I am a tanker driver that works out of Long Island in hastings. On most occasions(99.9%) I will load stenched propane which I will deliver to service stations. Propane is the gas of choice as the density is lighter which means more can be loaded and more stations can be filled. I also bulk deliver to BBQ bottling facilities and it MUST be stenched Propane and paperwork to that effect must be tendered on delivery for Q.A reasons. It is a sackable offence to deliver anything other than pure propane to a BBQ bottling facility.
Further to that the BBQ bottlie faciilities also run small tankers which service rural homes and buisnesses. Prior to filling the large underground tanks, I have to pump propane into the smaller tanker and the bulk goes into the large underground for later use.
Cheers George
-- Edited by geojen on Tuesday 23rd of July 2013 05:26:23 PM
-- Edited by geojen on Tuesday 23rd of July 2013 05:37:19 PM
Legendts said
01:46 AM Jul 24, 2013
It looks like nothing's changed George, other than the way we put in the odourant. In the "old" days we used to have tins of odourant stored in an old fridge at the load out bay and from memory it was a third of a pint to 8,000 gallons of propane. The third of a pint was rushed from the fridge, poured into the loading hose and very quickly connected to the truck. Oh what an odour, not, Toyota!
While staying at a Caravan Park in the Flinders noticed that the "Large Autogas Tank" was fitted with a Bottom Pipe Fitting which was setup to "Refill" Portable Camping Cylinders. Then when talking with another Nth Flinders Park owner that the Gas delivered is the same used for the "Autogas" and the "Refilling of Portable Cylinders" and the price charged to him was the same for both.
So all the talk of the Two gases being a different gas by the Authorities is a misconception, even though Propane is supposedly the only LP gas used in Portable or fixed house type cylinders in Australia and that Butane is used mainly Overseas although it needs to be used in the Autogas as an Octane Improver. Around Australia there is different amounts of Butane percentages used in the Autogas they say depending on what State, Seasons and Excess Supply which sometimes can affect the performance of engines.
So if these different proportions are used in the wrong temperature range problems can occur and with Butane it's "Minimum Vapour Boiling Point" is -0.5 Degrees where as Propane has a MVB Point of -42 Degrees. Why then are they allowed to use the Autogas to fill bottles as it has a higher percentage of Butane for Auto Engine use for Octane improvement as it has a slightly higher Calorific Heat Value than Propane. Whilst filling the bottles with Autogas are they passing on the savings of the cheaper gas or the over-inflated price of the so called Propane Gas. There is obviously some rather large Dollars being pocketed from these practises which have been occurring for many years.
As always the consumer is bled for easy money by the Authorities, Fuel Companies and Retailers for a Gas that our Governments allow to be sold to Foreign Countries for miserly amounts per tonne.
Interested in your thoughts and ideas on this matter.
Thanks Kev.
Interesting subject. My Prado survives on Petrol/Gas and have found that once you get away from very large towns in the northern states it is hard to get Auto LPG. In fact on my way up the middle from Melbourne to Townsville I found once in Q'land I had to stay on petrol all the time. I just couldn't risk if gas was going to be available in the next town. Here in Townsville I am not getting anywhere near the economy that I do down south for some reason, not that it's all that good at the best of times.
I have heard different opinions about the two gases. I have actually seen a truck filling up the auto gas tank at a servo then hook onto anther smaller tank for camping cylinders. You work that one out.
Petrol, well I normally run on 91% but again for some reason here in Townsville the Prado doesn't like 91% so have had to use 98% when running on petrol. I have always used 98% once a month at home to keep things clean.
-- Edited by Dougwe on Saturday 20th of July 2013 10:06:39 AM
Interesting Kev - good to see you on site as well. We are in Townsville, heading to Alice, then south through the Flinders across to do some of the Murray - flying into Launceston at end of February to go to Peacefest!!!!!!
Say g'day to Kim for us!
Regarding refilling your own bottles, there is no approved equipment an sale in Oz for you to do it. Imported equipment you bring in has no guarantee of passing any Oz standards if there were any. You may be capable of filling your bottles but there are so many Richard craniums out there thou will do silly things we just have to toe the line and use re fillers.
I live a few Km's from the largest Wholesale LPG outlet in the country. Long Island Terminal in Hastings, and can see the flames from the refinery stacks burning off impurities 24/7.
And while they're similar there is a difference between Propane and Auto Gas.
Propane is Auto gas that has been refined to remove butane and other impurities to give a clean burning, low emission gas with known performance levels.
Auto Gas is the dirty propane in it's raw state and contains a large amounts of impurities with variable combustion rates.
In some areas, especially outlying ones it's not economical to transport both products and therefore they will transport Propane and use it to fill both Propane tanks and the large Auto Gas bulk storage cylinders. In this case the Auto gas users will get the cleaner product.
My biggest bitch though is that most places that have the cleaner Propane charge more per litre for filling a BBQ cylinder than they do per litre for a LPG Vehicle.
Cheers, ozjohn.
I always have my bottles refilled at the appropriate facility. Perhaps this explains why sometimes the flame is bluer and sometimes it is oranger?
I am a tanker driver that works out of Long Island in hastings. On most occasions(99.9%) I will load stenched propane which I will deliver to service stations. Propane is the gas of choice as the density is lighter which means more can be loaded and more stations can be filled. I also bulk deliver to BBQ bottling facilities and it MUST be stenched Propane and paperwork to that effect must be tendered on delivery for Q.A reasons. It is a sackable offence to deliver anything other than pure propane to a BBQ bottling facility.
Further to that the BBQ bottlie faciilities also run small tankers which service rural homes and buisnesses. Prior to filling the large underground tanks, I have to pump propane into the smaller tanker and the bulk goes into the large underground for later use.
Cheers
George
-- Edited by geojen on Tuesday 23rd of July 2013 05:26:23 PM
-- Edited by geojen on Tuesday 23rd of July 2013 05:37:19 PM