The danger of a gas heater inside a van is carbon monoxide poisoning. And yes, if a gas stove is left on for an extended period in a poorly ventilated environment the same danger exists.
I recall an incident a year or so back in Tasmania where two people (I think they were a couple of blokes on a fishing trip) were found dead in a van and that a stove or gas heater had been left on all night suggesting the cause was CO poisoning. My recollection is from media reports and my memory of the details is sketchy.
CO is an odourless product of combustion and is not the same as unburned LPG.
PS: I'll confess to having used a gas heater (Mr Heater Little Buddy) inside the van for a brief period to warm the van up but I've turned it off before crawling into the fart sack for the night.
-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 3rd of June 2013 06:20:31 PM
GaryKelly said
07:29 PM Jun 3, 2013
I read about gas heaters on the forum recently - bottled gas with a radiator type thing and reflector on top. They're designed for outdoor use because, I imagine, a bottle of gas is not a good idea to be used indoors. But having a bottle outside and a gas stove inside is okay. Right? So what if the radiator/reflector part of the heater were available as a separate item to be placed on the stove top, using a very low flame to turn it into a practical indoor heater? Is that a dumb idea?
neilnruth said
09:18 PM Jun 3, 2013
I think that story about folk in Tasmania dying involved an unvented fridge, all windows closed (because it was cold) and not the usual procedures followed. Yes, Gary - hot water bottle when there's no power and a wheat pack for when there is. Simple and effective. PLUS wear WOOL - far warmer than synthetics. (and also not flammable.)
-- Edited by neilnruth on Monday 3rd of June 2013 09:19:32 PM
hako said
12:19 AM Jun 4, 2013
I reckon it's a good idea too but I'm sure it's probably dumb. I'd use one of these:
PS: I'll confess to having used a gas heater (Mr Heater Little Buddy) inside the van for a brief period to warm the van up but I've turned it off before crawling into the fart sack for the night.
-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 3rd of June 2013 06:20:31 PM
I think a fair proportion of us might be guilty of using the gas stove for brief or some even more extended periods as a heater. I will hold my hand up as well.
Having said that it is not a thing I have done very often, and I have always been aware of the "Danger" that CO in a confined space can create.
Below is an Except from "Collyn Rivers" Book "Campervan and Motorhome Book"
Forums can be good sources of information, but only too often suggestions are made that are downright dangerous. Caravan and motor home heating is a sadly common example.
Examples include to invert a clay flowerpot or steel saucepan over an open gas ring or to turn the gas oven on with the door left open. All are extremely dangerous, are liable to cause irreversible brain damage - and can be lethal. Heating a small enclosed space by burning gas presents two main dangers. The first and most serious is carbon monoxide poisoning. Carbon monoxide is a colourless and odourless gas (slightly lighter than air). It is formed whenever any carbon-based substance (which is most substances) is burned with an inadequate supply of air. Even when there is adequate air, carbon monoxide is produced if the burning reaction is only partly complete. There are only minor indications: headache, nausea, fatigue - and then unconsciousness. If you were asleep at the time, the odds are against your ever waking up again. Carbon monoxide is rightly called the 'silent killer'.
GaryKelly said
03:23 AM Jun 4, 2013
Roite... and now to my next brilliant idea... hehe. Thanks chaps for pointing out what was not obvious to me. And I'm glad I asked the question. I've also learned something else... an expression hitherto unknown to me... fart sack. Ew! But back to heating in a motorhome or caravan, I'm a big fan of hot water bottles. There's one in my fart sack at the mo getting it nice and warm for when I dive in later. If it's cold during the day, I use one behind my back in a chair. If it's a bit too hot, I put a cushion in front of it. Anyway, I'll be sure to have a bottle or two in the MH when I take off. Safe, simple, effective and cheap. And no CO.
hako said
03:39 AM Jun 4, 2013
Gary, we always called the fart sack the "dutch oven"....I wonder what the origins of that were. On another angle, I once asked a Frenchman what their slang was for a condom and quick as a flash he replied "English letter"
The CO hazard exists when a gas stove is used for its intended purpose if the van is not adequately ventillated e.g an open window and/or roof vent.
Thanks Neilnruth for updating my post re the Tasmanian incident. As I said my recollection was sketchy (not unusual with a memory like mine!)
Jim
Dougwe said
10:28 PM Jun 4, 2013
I also thankyou you Dorian and will get one myself as I am guilty as charged for using the gas stove to warm up a little and I must say only recently. I will not have that or my new small gas butane heater on when asleep though.
Thick PJ's, woolly socks, thermals and a beanie for sleep time. Make it a red beanie if you want to sleep faster, Beth54 has a red one, so she tells me anyway.
jimricho said
02:28 PM Jun 5, 2013
Dougwe wrote:
I also thankyou you Dorian and will get one myself as I am guilty as charged for using the gas stove to warm up a little and I must say only recently. I will not have that or my new small gas butane heater on when asleep though.
Thick PJ's, woolly socks, thermals and a beanie for sleep time. Make it a red beanie if you want to sleep faster, Beth54 has a red one, so she tells me anyway.
plus a couple of Glenfiddich sleeping pills
Wombat 280 said
04:14 PM Jun 5, 2013
Personally I don't support the use of any open flame or gas appliance in a van for space heating. Check at what level of oxygen depletion these alarms will activate especially if you suffer from any type of lung complaint or breathing difficulties and just how loud they are , our hearing isn't as sensitive as years back, how, many of us have through the alarm clock . Just ask your doctor to learn how low your oxygen saturation levels are when you sleep and do the sums on just how little it has to drop before your in trouble and can't help yourself to the locked door in the dark
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Wednesday 5th of June 2013 04:21:47 PM
Greg W said
04:23 AM Jun 8, 2013
Our Geist caravan came with an externally vented gas heater. It uses oxygen from outside, and has a chimney in the roof to expel burnt gases. It uses a heat exchanger to heat the van, and is extremely efficient. It also has a fan and ducting around the van, which we hardly ever use because it heats the van so well anyway. I can turn it on from the bed, so the van is toasty warm before we get up. Can't recommend it too highly. A couple of days ago we were in minus 6 degrees at Sofala, everything outside was covered in frost, and we were very comfy inside.
elliemike said
07:39 AM Jun 8, 2013
We put an Eberspacher Diesel heater in the Avan Cruiseliner. Expensive but worth it.
Brilliant.
We will be on the road again in July so it will get a workout again.
I have had a service station for the last 16 yrs Gas bottles wether bbq or household (45Kg) should only ever be filled with propane which gives off Carbon Dioxide when burnt
Butane which is available from auto gas dispensers (in a butane propane mix ) Gives off carbon Monoxide when burnt the same as leaking exhaust on car above . As a point on economy
for vehicles fitted with LPG it depends on how much butane is in the mix to lts/100ks, at times it can be straight propane which is less economical than butane.
JulieM said
05:35 PM Jul 6, 2013
Bruiser wrote:
I have had a service station for the last 16 yrs Gas bottles wether bbq or household (45Kg) should only ever be filled with propane which gives off Carbon Dioxide when burnt Butane which is available from auto gas dispensers (in a butane propane mix ) Gives off carbon Monoxide when burnt the same as leaking exhaust on car above . As a point on economy for vehicles fitted with LPG it depends on how much butane is in the mix to lts/100ks, at times it can be straight propane which is less economical than butane.
Bruiser, maybe a dumb question but does that mean only the small 'disposable' gas canister's give off carbon monoxide?
elliemike said
12:47 AM Jul 7, 2013
I thought combustion of all flammable gasses resulted in CO (carbon monoxide) being produced
CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) is the gas in fizzy drinks etc. It's the Fourth Most abundant gas in our atmosphere.
-- Edited by elliemike on Sunday 7th of July 2013 07:15:06 PM
Duh said
02:37 AM Jul 7, 2013
Dougwe wrote:
I also thankyou you Dorian and will get one myself as I am guilty as charged for using the gas stove to warm up a little and I must say only recently. I will not have that or my new small gas butane heater on when asleep though.
At one time Doug, Avan fitted a gas detector alarm in Avan camper trailers as standard, but discontinued fitting them. I had one in my 2000 model that came as standard.
They were easily set off by hair spray, fly spray etc and many including myself disconnected them and only had the smoke alarm on. My van only had a gas stove and 3 way fridge which included a gas mode, vented to the outside. I always kept the roof vents open slightly when using gas inside the van.
I don't know why Avan decided not to put them in any more....
Edit: My post said a CO detector, it should have been gas detector for gas leaks, not a CO detector for burnt gasses. Sorry....
-- Edited by Duh on Sunday 7th of July 2013 02:34:50 PM
PeterD said
12:38 AM Jul 8, 2013
Carbon dioxide is only one problem. Oxygen depletion is another, even with gas that may only produce carbon dioxide you still have the depletion problem.
elliemike said
02:24 AM Jul 8, 2013
PeterD wrote:
Carbon dioxide is only one problem. Oxygen depletion is another, even with gas that may only produce carbon dioxide you still have the depletion problem.
Exactly
Bruiser said
06:07 AM Jul 16, 2013
Juliem
That's why you should never fill Gas bottles for domestic use from a auto gas dispenser they will most likely have butane in them BBO gas refills are propane only
you will never see a gas truck filling a service stations auto gas fill the BBQ refill as well. Regardless of what ever anyone will tell you. We only do exchanges these days for two reasons
the time it takes to refill bottles and there is a risk with bleeding refills however small it may be. Put a chop on the barbie for me and enjoy Gordie
JulieM said
01:41 AM Jul 18, 2013
Juliem That's why you should never fill Gas bottles for domestic use from a auto gas dispenser they will most likely have butane in them BBO gas refills are propane only you will never see a gas truck filling a service stations auto gas fill the BBQ refill as well. Regardless of what ever anyone will tell you. We only do exchanges these days for two reasons the time it takes to refill bottles and there is a risk with bleeding refills however small it may be. Put a chop on the barbie for me and enjoy Gordie
The danger of a gas heater inside a van is carbon monoxide poisoning. And yes, if a gas stove is left on for an extended period in a poorly ventilated environment the same danger exists.
I recall an incident a year or so back in Tasmania where two people (I think they were a couple of blokes on a fishing trip) were found dead in a van and that a stove or gas heater had been left on all night suggesting the cause was CO poisoning. My recollection is from media reports and my memory of the details is sketchy.
CO is an odourless product of combustion and is not the same as unburned LPG.
PS: I'll confess to having used a gas heater (Mr Heater Little Buddy) inside the van for a brief period to warm the van up but I've turned it off before crawling into the fart sack for the night.
-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 3rd of June 2013 06:20:31 PM
I read about gas heaters on the forum recently - bottled gas with a radiator type thing and reflector on top. They're designed for outdoor use because, I imagine, a bottle of gas is not a good idea to be used indoors. But having a bottle outside and a gas stove inside is okay. Right? So what if the radiator/reflector part of the heater were available as a separate item to be placed on the stove top, using a very low flame to turn it into a practical indoor heater? Is that a dumb idea?
I think that story about folk in Tasmania dying involved an unvented fridge, all windows closed (because it was cold) and not the usual procedures followed.
Yes, Gary - hot water bottle when there's no power and a wheat pack for when there is. Simple and effective. PLUS wear WOOL - far warmer than synthetics. (and also not flammable.)
-- Edited by neilnruth on Monday 3rd of June 2013 09:19:32 PM
I reckon it's a good idea too but I'm sure it's probably
dumb. I'd use one of these:
They're bloody useless as a toaster.
http://www.bunnings.com.au/products_product_carbon-monoxide-alarm_P4210604.aspx
I think a fair proportion of us might be guilty of using the gas stove for brief or some even more extended periods as a heater. I will hold my hand up as well.
Having said that it is not a thing I have done very often, and I have always been aware of the "Danger" that CO in a confined space can create.
Below is an Except from "Collyn Rivers" Book "Campervan and Motorhome Book"
Forums can be good sources of information, but only too often suggestions are made that are downright dangerous. Caravan and motor home heating is a sadly common example.
Examples include to invert a clay flowerpot or steel saucepan over an open gas ring or to turn the gas oven on with the door left open. All are extremely dangerous, are liable to cause irreversible brain damage - and can be lethal.
Heating a small enclosed space by burning gas presents two main dangers. The first and most serious is carbon monoxide poisoning. Carbon monoxide is a colourless and odourless gas (slightly lighter than air). It is formed whenever any carbon-based substance (which is most substances) is burned with an inadequate supply of air. Even when there is adequate air, carbon monoxide is produced if the burning reaction is only partly complete.
There are only minor indications: headache, nausea, fatigue - and then unconsciousness. If you were asleep at the time, the odds are against your ever waking up again. Carbon monoxide is rightly called the 'silent killer'.
On another angle, I once asked a Frenchman what their slang was for a condom and quick as a flash he replied "English letter"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-18/town-in-shock-over-camping-tragedy/3896586
Thanks for that Dorian. I'll get one.
The CO hazard exists when a gas stove is used for its intended purpose if the van is not adequately ventillated e.g an open window and/or roof vent.
Thanks Neilnruth for updating my post re the Tasmanian incident. As I said my recollection was sketchy (not unusual with a memory like mine!)
Jim
Thick PJ's, woolly socks, thermals and a beanie for sleep time. Make it a red beanie if you want to sleep faster, Beth54 has a red one, so she tells me anyway.
plus a couple of Glenfiddich sleeping pills
Personally I don't support the use of any open flame or gas appliance in a van for space heating. Check at what level of oxygen depletion these alarms will activate especially if you suffer from any type of lung complaint or breathing difficulties and just how loud they are , our hearing isn't as sensitive as years back, how, many of us have through the alarm clock . Just ask your doctor to learn how low your oxygen saturation levels are when you sleep and do the sums on just how little it has to drop before your in trouble and can't help yourself to the locked door in the dark
-- Edited by Wombat 280 on Wednesday 5th of June 2013 04:21:47 PM
We put an Eberspacher Diesel heater in the Avan Cruiseliner. Expensive but worth it.
Brilliant.
We will be on the road again in July so it will get a workout again.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-08/car-fume-leak-contributed-to-baby27s-death-in-adelaide/4741916
Butane which is available from auto gas dispensers (in a butane propane mix ) Gives off carbon Monoxide when burnt the same as leaking exhaust on car above . As a point on economy
for vehicles fitted with LPG it depends on how much butane is in the mix to lts/100ks, at times it can be straight propane which is less economical than butane.
Bruiser, maybe a dumb question but does that mean only the small 'disposable' gas canister's give off carbon monoxide?
I thought combustion of all flammable gasses resulted in CO (carbon monoxide) being produced
CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) is the gas in fizzy drinks etc. It's the Fourth Most abundant gas in our atmosphere.
-- Edited by elliemike on Sunday 7th of July 2013 07:15:06 PM
At one time Doug, Avan fitted a gas detector alarm in Avan camper trailers as standard, but discontinued fitting them. I had one in my 2000 model that came as standard.
They were easily set off by hair spray, fly spray etc and many including myself disconnected them and only had the smoke alarm on. My van only had a gas stove and 3 way fridge which included a gas mode, vented to the outside. I always kept the roof vents open slightly when using gas inside the van.
I don't know why Avan decided not to put them in any more....
Edit: My post said a CO detector, it should have been gas detector for gas leaks, not a CO detector for burnt gasses. Sorry....
-- Edited by Duh on Sunday 7th of July 2013 02:34:50 PM
Exactly
That's why you should never fill Gas bottles for domestic use from a auto gas dispenser they will most likely have butane in them BBO gas refills are propane only
you will never see a gas truck filling a service stations auto gas fill the BBQ refill as well. Regardless of what ever anyone will tell you. We only do exchanges these days for two reasons
the time it takes to refill bottles and there is a risk with bleeding refills however small it may be. Put a chop on the barbie for me and enjoy Gordie
Juliem
That's why you should never fill Gas bottles for domestic use from a auto gas dispenser they will most likely have butane in them BBO gas refills are propane only
you will never see a gas truck filling a service stations auto gas fill the BBQ refill as well. Regardless of what ever anyone will tell you. We only do exchanges these days for two reasons
the time it takes to refill bottles and there is a risk with bleeding refills however small it may be. Put a chop on the barbie for me and enjoy Gordie
Thanks Bruiser