Electric discharge when touching van and concrete floor
PeterD said
01:16 AM Feb 6, 2013
Was this just a quick static discharge or did you get the effect repeatedly? Was the 240 V power connected to the van? If it was not a static type discharge then I suggest there is faulty wiring or appliance in the van. It also sounds like there is no RCD in the van or in the house, one of those would have tripped if there was one.If the power was connected and see if the problem still exists.
Suggest your friend gets this checked out post haste if it is coming from the mains.
-- Edited by PeterD on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 01:18:19 AM
johnno02 said
04:32 AM Feb 6, 2013
PeterD wrote:
Was this just a quick static discharge or did you get the effect repeatedly? Was the 240 V power connected to the van? If it was not a static type discharge then I suggest there is faulty wiring or appliance in the van. It also sounds like there is no RCD in the van or in the house, one of those would have tripped if there was one.If the power was connected and see if the problem still exists.
Suggest your friend gets this checked out post haste if it is coming from the mains.
-- Edited by PeterD on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 01:18:19 AM
Rod,
I agree with PeterD Completely,
Get it checked out Immediately,
I am also a retired Electronics Tech,and would much prefer a belt off a 25kv TV Picture tube
(Not Nice),than a Total tangle with 240 Volt Mains,unless you are really lucky it
can Kill you.
I have accidently, tried both several times,during my working life,no doubt Peter has too,
As he said,it may have been just a Static build up...Not such a big deal
But,if it was a 240 Volt leakage Problem,That can be Lethal.
You CANT,let go of 240 Volt,Believe me.
Regards.
John
-- Edited by johnno02 on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 04:34:23 AM
Rodtrish said
08:58 AM Feb 6, 2013
Techies ,when working on my friends van I was touching the metal while sitting on the ground and I recieved a bit of a tickle of electricity ,any answers to this problem .
thanks Rod
oldtrack123 said
11:13 AM Feb 6, 2013
Rodtrish wrote:
Hello fellas, thank you all for your quick replies. The van was connected to power and was parked inside a shed on concrete,I thought it might have been a capacitance build up seeing that the van is sitting on rubber and not grounded, am I thinking in right direction should the van be earthed while parked????.
Thank you all Rod
Hi Rod
While it may have been a elecrostatic discharge , that should only occur for a very short instant[part of a second]
If it continued while in contact [no matter how small ] it indicates a 240v leakage.
Any 240V leakge NEEDS TO BE FOUND URGENTLY.
It may have not been enough at this stage, to trip a RCD [safety switch] but is an indication of a possible more serious problem, that could develop
There could be many causes:
[1] a fault within the van
[2]a faulty extension lead
you could try another lead & carefully see if the problem still exists
I do hope you were not using an illegal 10A to 15A extension lead
[3] a faulty condition with the domestic earthing system
The power outlet you were using may not have an earth connection[possible in many older houses]
[4]even an external earthing problem
BUT it needs checking a verifying by a competent 240v electrician NOW
NO, DO NOT USE ANY OTHER MEANS OF EARTHING THE VAN ,than by the extension lead,doing so can lead to other problems
EDIT
The whole lot needs to be checked in situ
The problem maybe due to step voltages[stray ground currents] due to possible problems in the area!!
What is the distance from the supply outlet to the van [extensin lead length???]
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 11:14:57 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 02:11:04 PM
jimricho said
02:46 PM Feb 6, 2013
If it were a static discharge, common in very dry weather, it will be sensed as just a quick minor electric shock.
If it is a "tingle" that occurs continuously heed the above advice and get it checked.
I have had a similar problem occur when connected to a faulty service pole in a caravan park (neutral and earth reversed, I suspect).
Rodtrish said
05:06 PM Feb 6, 2013
Hello fellas, thank you all for your quick replies. The van was connected to power and was parked inside a shed on concrete,I thought it might have been a capacitance build up seeing that the van is sitting on rubber and not grounded, am I thinking in right direction should the van be earthed while parked????.
Thank you all Rod
PeterD said
09:55 PM Feb 6, 2013
Rodtrish wrote:
1. The van was connected to power and was parked inside a shed on concrete,I thought it might have been a capacitance build up seeing that the van is sitting on rubber and not grounded, am I thinking in right direction
2. should the van be earthed while parked?
1. If the van is correctly earthed through its power cord and the house wiring is in good order, you should not experience anything like you suggest.
2. The van only needs to be earthed while it is connected to a 240 V power supply. The van will get its earthing through the power lead if there are no faults within the system.
dorian said
06:17 PM Feb 10, 2013
I'm wondering whether there is a less frightening explanation for the "tickle".
Many two-pronged AC appliances have a Y2 capacitor that connects the AC side of the supply to the DC side. The impedance of this capacitor at 50Hz is very high, so there is no risk of harm. In fact my DVD player and an old CRT TV both used to give me a significant tingle whenever I fiddled with their AV leads.
oldtrack123 said
07:23 PM Feb 10, 2013
dorian wrote:
I'm wondering whether there is a less frightening explanation for the "tickle".
Many two-pronged AC appliances have a Y2 capacitor that connects the AC side of the supply to the DC side. The impedance of this capacitor at 50Hz is very high, so there is no risk of harm. In fact my DVD player and an old CRT TV both used to give me a significant tingle whenever I fiddled with their AV leads.
Hi dorian
Tickles such as you describe can occur with many device with internal capaciors to earth .
The current must be limited to a safe value [by the design]
Such devices include Inverters , TV signal amplifiers & many other appliances
But you should not get a tickle from the FRAME of a caravan to mother earth
Both should be at the same potential
The problem should be investigated to ensure lives are not at risk
The problem can be due to:
[1]A faulty extension lead coupled with some leakage within the van [wiring or appliance]
[2]A fault in the house wiring
[3] A problem in the supply Authority earthing system
[4]A potential difference due to the van's location relative to the supply outlet's earthing
The latest Standards recognise this problem & have some very stringent requirements for earthing the reinforcement in concrete slabs so that ALL is at equipotential,
Of course many concreters would not be aware of that!!!
What ever the area , the cause should be investigated by an electrician who has some experience with such problems, for possible rectifcation or to ensure the system is SAFE.
Please to ALL do not ignore what may appear to be a minor shock .It could be a warning & you may not get a second chance
Peter
Scotty01 said
08:00 PM Feb 10, 2013
I may be a bit over causious but I find some of the comments here disturbing. 240V is bloody dangerous! Instead of taking advice from well intended people here GO SEE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN AND GET THE RIGHT ANSWER before someone gets hurt or worse!
patrolst said
10:20 AM Feb 11, 2013
(The latest Standards recognise this problem & have some very stringent requirements for earthing the reinforcement in concrete slabs so that ALL is at equipotential,
Of course many concreters would not be aware of that!!!)
Having been associated with the Construction Industry for 50 QLD years I have never heard of this requirement and would find is very hard to carry out as in a highrise building you would have difficulty with the conection continuity.
Have you a standard requirement reference, as I have not seen any reference to this on any building plans or service schematics.
As this is now getting of topic for the original poster I would suggest he purchases a new lead or trys another lead of the required amperage
-- Edited by patrolst on Monday 11th of February 2013 10:25:29 AM
oldtrack123 said
07:29 PM Feb 11, 2013
Hi Patrol
Yes,it does present problems & requires cooperation between Elecrician & the reinfircement installer
I belive that the problem the OP has is due to the slab reinforcement not being electrical bonded to the MAIN instalation earth
I perhaps shoud not have said "ALL " but the rules specically calls for such in swimming pools, spas, bathrooms ,similar wet areas
the relevant clauses are in AS /NZS3000 :20008
Cl. 5.4.2.1"conductive building material shall be earthed-----"
Cl .5 .4.6.1"parts of structural steel work including conductive building material shall be earthed --------"
Cl .5 5.5.3.1 "Outbuildings "
These only apply if an electrical installation is in or going to be in the building
If no electrical installation there is no requirement,
It is referredto as "equipipotential bonding]
Peter
The section with ALL the details covers some 40 pages
The purpose is to minimize the risk of a voltage existing, such as the OP may have found!!
Any such structure, some distance from the instalation MAIN earth electrode, can have such problems IF not Equipotential bonded.
Boothie said
06:43 AM Feb 19, 2013
Stupid question, but what footwear and what clothing were you wearing and where were you before you got the shock. Did you get more than one shock from the van?
If you got more than one shock from the van I would be worried, If you got one shock and no more, I would not try to use an an electric detonater to arm a kilo of nitropril wearing the footwear and clothes you were wearing because the static would probably send you to the moon.
One shock is discharge, static. Two shocks is bad. One shock with AC voltage usually requires a second person to knock you off it, it does grab you and hurts. I had 180 volts ac through an autotransformer earthed through the frame, it hurt. Luckily a workmate hit me off it with a broomstick. AC sticks and hurts at lower voltages. At Higher voltages, it just fries or throws you off, do not know why!
Now I have probably opened a can of worms, but seriously, I have got a static shock off the caravan wearing nylon, wearing no shoes, walking across carpet and then putting Crocs on and going out to put stuff in the van!
jimricho said
02:34 PM Feb 19, 2013
Boothie wrote:
Stupid question, but what footwear and what clothing were you wearing and where were you before you got the shock. Did you get more than one shock from the van?
Nylon underwear too! The best solution for attractive young ladies is not to wear any!
patrolst said
06:42 PM Feb 19, 2013
oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi Patrol
Yes,it does present problems & requires cooperation between Elecrician & the reinfircement installer
I belive that the problem the OP has is due to the slab reinforcement not being electrical bonded to the MAIN instalation earth
I perhaps shoud not have said "ALL " but the rules specically calls for such in swimming pools, spas, bathrooms ,similar wet areas
the relevant clauses are in AS /NZS3000 :20008
Cl. 5.4.2.1"conductive building material shall be earthed-----"
Cl .5 .4.6.1"parts of structural steel work including conductive building material shall be earthed --------"
Cl .5 5.5.3.1 "Outbuildings "
These only apply if an electrical installation is in or going to be in the building
If no electrical installation there is no requirement,
It is referredto as "equipipotential bonding]
Peter
The section with ALL the details covers some 40 pages
The purpose is to minimize the risk of a voltage existing, such as the OP may have found!!
Any such structure, some distance from the instalation MAIN earth electrode, can have such problems IF not Equipotential bonded.
Earthing of structual steel has been around for awhile so has the earthing of metal roof sheeting.
But not reinforcing which is in the concrete substrate of the building.
oldtrack123 said
11:57 PM Feb 19, 2013
HI Jim
I was a little over keen with saying all rheo shall be eqipotentialy bonded to the main earthing system it is a recomendation so a I'll give a edited actual quotes from the rules [Got to be careful with copyrights]
AS 3000 5.6.2.5"all conductive reinforcing within a concrete floor or wall forming part of shower or bathroom SHALL be bonded to the earthing system of the electrical installation -------to avoid any potential differences----" Details as to how it may be done follow
5.6.2.5 note 3 "Although not a requirement in existing concrete wall or floors, the practise dhould be adopted where ever pratical" c
Swimming poools & spas 5.6.2.6 "---Eqipotential bonding SHALL extend to any fixed-extraneous conductive metal of the pool structure including reinforcing metal of the deck & shell---------"
You may find these links informative http://hia.com.au/hia/content/Builder/region/VIC/classification/Building%20and%20Planning%20Services/Latest%20news/article/IS/BPS/VIC%20AS3000%20New%20requirements%20for%20earthing%20of%20slabs.aspx
You will note that all only specify baths ,showers, pools & spas, SHALL have the reo equipotentially bonded
That is a relaxation,from my memory of the draft proposal
The last link suggests that the WHOLE slab be equipotentially bonded which makes sense
PeterQ
Any wet situation can have similar problems.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 19th of February 2013 11:58:35 PM
Rodtrish said
05:27 AM Mar 1, 2013
Hello everyone,
Thank you all for your replies ,I went over to my friends place and found the power lead he was using was an old one he used when he was working (retired builder), checked it out and found the earth at the power point end was broken. Because it was so old I told him to buy a new one. In finding what was wrong and fixing it may help someone else out there who has a similar problem.
Once again thank you all for your help. Rod
patrolst said
05:51 AM Mar 1, 2013
Glad to hear there was a good outcome.
oldtrack123 said
07:08 PM Mar 1, 2013
patrolst wrote:
Glad to hear there was a good outcome.
Hi
The Faulty extension lead is the reason you fealt the tingle
The fact that a tingle existed indicates some voltage leakage in the van
May now be minor but could get worse
Does the VAN have a RCD [safety switch]??
PeterQ
dorian said
10:25 PM Mar 12, 2013
Since the earth was disconnected, then any Y2 capacitor could have accounted for the tingle (aka voltage leak). This is normal.
If you connect your desktop computer to a mains outlet with a two-pronged cord, then you'll see what I mean. Don't worry, the tingle will be harmless.
oldtrack123 said
01:15 AM Mar 18, 2013
dorian wrote:
Since the earth was disconnected, then any Y2 capacitor could have accounted for the tingle (aka voltage leak). This is normal.
If you connect your desktop computer to a mains outlet with a two-pronged cord, then you'll see what I mean. Don't worry, the tingle will be harmless.
HI
I would hope NO ONE one would use a 2pin plug with a CLASS1 appliance
Especially since the supplied cord is a 3pin
ALL appliances incorporating a Y2 capacitor SHALL have a 3PIN PLUG
Always be CONCERNED if you feel any tingle
PeterQ
You may not have a 2nd chance
mr glassies said
04:07 AM Mar 28, 2013
hi rodtrish
well we had the same problem when we bought our van . tingles on my lip of the gas bottle when i looked in the boot then on the back of my fingers bit like the ones ya used to get from the laundry water way back when . ok theres more to this story as we just bought the van and had to fight for repairs (another story) we had the electricity safety council spend 5 hrs x 2 guys checking out for a fault . they did find a surge protector was giving wrong readings so it was busted up never to be used again .they checked out the house and the leads to find nothing wrong . when the van did go back for warrantee work it was found to be a ****ty earth connector behind the fridge crap material used by the van maker . alls well now but its always on my mind .they also said to make sure the little earth strap from the door to the van is in good condition and connected . they also told me of a little girl that got a shock when she opened the door but didnt tell me how bad it was .
Was this just a quick static discharge or did you get the effect repeatedly? Was the 240 V power connected to the van? If it was not a static type discharge then I suggest there is faulty wiring or appliance in the van. It also sounds like there is no RCD in the van or in the house, one of those would have tripped if there was one. If the power was connected and see if the problem still exists.
Suggest your friend gets this checked out post haste if it is coming from the mains.
-- Edited by PeterD on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 01:18:19 AM
Rod,
I agree with PeterD Completely,
Get it checked out Immediately,
I am also a retired Electronics Tech,and would much prefer a belt off a 25kv TV Picture tube
(Not Nice),than a Total tangle with 240 Volt Mains,unless you are really lucky it
can Kill you.
I have accidently, tried both several times,during my working life,no doubt Peter has too,
As he said,it may have been just a Static build up...Not such a big deal
But,if it was a 240 Volt leakage Problem,That can be Lethal.
You CANT,let go of 240 Volt,Believe me.
Regards.
John
-- Edited by johnno02 on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 04:34:23 AM
Techies ,when working on my friends van I was touching the metal while sitting on the ground and I recieved a bit of a tickle of electricity ,any answers to this problem
.
thanks Rod
Hi Rod
While it may have been a elecrostatic discharge , that should only occur for a very short instant[part of a second]
If it continued while in contact [no matter how small ] it indicates a 240v leakage.
Any 240V leakge NEEDS TO BE FOUND URGENTLY.
It may have not been enough at this stage, to trip a RCD [safety switch] but is an indication of a possible more serious problem, that could develop
There could be many causes:
[1] a fault within the van
[2]a faulty extension lead
you could try another lead & carefully see if the problem still exists
I do hope you were not using an illegal 10A to 15A extension lead
[3] a faulty condition with the domestic earthing system
The power outlet you were using may not have an earth connection[possible in many older houses]
[4]even an external earthing problem
BUT it needs checking a verifying by a competent 240v electrician NOW
NO, DO NOT USE ANY OTHER MEANS OF EARTHING THE VAN ,than by the extension lead,doing so can lead to other problems
EDIT
The whole lot needs to be checked in situ
The problem maybe due to step voltages[stray ground currents] due to possible problems in the area!!
What is the distance from the supply outlet to the van [extensin lead length???]
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 11:14:57 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 6th of February 2013 02:11:04 PM
If it is a "tingle" that occurs continuously heed the above advice and get it checked.
I have had a similar problem occur when connected to a faulty service pole in a caravan park (neutral and earth reversed, I suspect).
Thank you all
Rod
1. If the van is correctly earthed through its power cord and the house wiring is in good order, you should not experience anything like you suggest.
2. The van only needs to be earthed while it is connected to a 240 V power supply. The van will get its earthing through the power lead if there are no faults within the system.
Many two-pronged AC appliances have a Y2 capacitor that connects the AC side of the supply to the DC side. The impedance of this capacitor at 50Hz is very high, so there is no risk of harm. In fact my DVD player and an old CRT TV both used to give me a significant tingle whenever I fiddled with their AV leads.
Hi dorian
Tickles such as you describe can occur with many device with internal capaciors to earth .
The current must be limited to a safe value [by the design]
Such devices include Inverters , TV signal amplifiers & many other appliances
But you should not get a tickle from the FRAME of a caravan to mother earth
Both should be at the same potential
The problem should be investigated to ensure lives are not at risk
The problem can be due to:
[1]A faulty extension lead coupled with some leakage within the van [wiring or appliance]
[2]A fault in the house wiring
[3] A problem in the supply Authority earthing system
[4]A potential difference due to the van's location relative to the supply outlet's earthing
The latest Standards recognise this problem & have some very stringent requirements for earthing the reinforcement in concrete slabs so that ALL is at equipotential,
Of course many concreters would not be aware of that!!!
What ever the area , the cause should be investigated by an electrician who has some experience with such problems, for possible rectifcation or to ensure the system is SAFE.
Please to ALL do not ignore what may appear to be a minor shock .It could be a warning & you may not get a second chance
Peter
I may be a bit over causious but I find some of the comments here disturbing. 240V is bloody dangerous! Instead of taking advice from well intended people here GO SEE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN AND GET THE RIGHT ANSWER before someone gets hurt or worse!
(The latest Standards recognise this problem & have some very stringent requirements for earthing the reinforcement in concrete slabs so that ALL is at equipotential,
Of course many concreters would not be aware of that!!!)
Having been associated with the Construction Industry for 50 QLD years I have never heard of this requirement and would find is very hard to carry out as in a highrise building you would have difficulty with the conection continuity.
Have you a standard requirement reference, as I have not seen any reference to this on any building plans or service schematics.
As this is now getting of topic for the original poster I would suggest he purchases a new lead or trys another lead of the required amperage
-- Edited by patrolst on Monday 11th of February 2013 10:25:29 AM
Hi Patrol
Yes,it does present problems & requires cooperation between Elecrician & the reinfircement installer
I belive that the problem the OP has is due to the slab reinforcement not being electrical bonded to the MAIN instalation earth
I perhaps shoud not have said "ALL " but the rules specically calls for such in swimming pools, spas, bathrooms ,similar wet areas
the relevant clauses are in AS /NZS3000 :20008
Cl. 5.4.2.1"conductive building material shall be earthed-----"
Cl .5 .4.6.1"parts of structural steel work including conductive building material shall be earthed --------"
Cl .5 5.5.3.1 "Outbuildings "
These only apply if an electrical installation is in or going to be in the building
If no electrical installation there is no requirement,
It is referredto as "equipipotential bonding]
Peter
The section with ALL the details covers some 40 pages
The purpose is to minimize the risk of a voltage existing, such as the OP may have found!!
Any such structure, some distance from the instalation MAIN earth electrode, can have such problems IF not Equipotential bonded.
Stupid question, but what footwear and what clothing were you wearing and where were you before you got the shock. Did you get more than one shock from the van?
If you got more than one shock from the van I would be worried, If you got one shock and no more, I would not try to use an an electric detonater to arm a kilo of nitropril wearing the footwear and clothes you were wearing because the static would probably send you to the moon.
One shock is discharge, static. Two shocks is bad. One shock with AC voltage usually requires a second person to knock you off it, it does grab you and hurts. I had 180 volts ac through an autotransformer earthed through the frame, it hurt. Luckily a workmate hit me off it with a broomstick. AC sticks and hurts at lower voltages. At Higher voltages, it just fries or throws you off, do not know why!
Now I have probably opened a can of worms, but seriously, I have got a static shock off the caravan wearing nylon, wearing no shoes, walking across carpet and then putting Crocs on and going out to put stuff in the van!
Nylon underwear too! The best solution for attractive young ladies is not to wear any!
Earthing of structual steel has been around for awhile so has the earthing of metal roof sheeting.
But not reinforcing which is in the concrete substrate of the building.
HI Jim
I was a little over keen
so a I'll give a edited actual quotes from the rules
[Got to be careful with copyrights]
AS 3000 5.6.2.5"all conductive reinforcing within a concrete floor or wall forming part of shower or bathroom SHALL be bonded to the earthing system of the electrical installation -------to avoid any potential differences----"
Details as to how it may be done follow
5.6.2.5 note 3 "Although not a requirement in existing concrete wall or floors, the practise dhould be adopted where ever pratical"
c
Swimming poools & spas
5.6.2.6 "---Eqipotential bonding SHALL extend to any fixed-extraneous conductive metal of the pool structure including reinforcing metal of the deck & shell---------"
You may find these links informative
http://hia.com.au/hia/content/Builder/region/VIC/classification/Building%20and%20Planning%20Services/Latest%20news/article/IS/BPS/VIC%20AS3000%20New%20requirements%20for%20earthing%20of%20slabs.aspx
http://www.esgroundingsolutions.com/blog/473/im-in-new-zealand-is-the-reinforcing-mesh-in-a-concrete-slab-building-foundation-require-to-be-earthed
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/About%20ESV/Files/whats%20new/Electricity%20-%20examples%20of%20bonding.pdf
http://keystonetraining.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/changes-to-wiring-rules-circular.qmba_.pdf
You will note that all only specify baths ,showers, pools & spas, SHALL have the reo equipotentially bonded
That is a relaxation,from my memory of the draft proposal
The last link suggests that the WHOLE slab be equipotentially bonded which makes sense
PeterQ
Any wet situation can have similar problems.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 19th of February 2013 11:58:35 PM
Thank you all for your replies ,I went over to my friends place and found the power lead he was using was an old one he used when he was working (retired builder), checked it out and found the earth at the power point end was broken. Because it was so old I told him to buy a new one.
In finding what was wrong and fixing it may help someone else out there who has a similar problem.
Once again thank you all for your help.
Rod
Glad to hear there was a good outcome.
Hi
The Faulty extension lead is the reason you fealt the tingle
The fact that a tingle existed indicates some voltage leakage in the van
May now be minor but could get worse
Does the VAN have a RCD [safety switch]??
PeterQ
If you connect your desktop computer to a mains outlet with a two-pronged cord, then you'll see what I mean. Don't worry, the tingle will be harmless.
HI
I would hope NO ONE one would use a 2pin plug with a CLASS1 appliance
Especially since the supplied cord is a 3pin
ALL appliances incorporating a Y2 capacitor SHALL have a 3PIN PLUG
Always be CONCERNED if you feel any tingle
PeterQ
You may not have a 2nd chance
well we had the same problem when we bought our van . tingles on my lip of the gas bottle when i looked in the boot then on the back of my fingers bit like the ones ya used to get from the laundry water way back when . ok theres more to this story as we just bought the van and had to fight for repairs (another story)
we had the electricity safety council spend 5 hrs x 2 guys checking out for a fault . they did find a surge protector was giving wrong readings so it was busted up never to be used again .they checked out the house and the leads to find nothing wrong .
when the van did go back for warrantee work it was found to be a ****ty earth connector behind the fridge crap material used by the van maker . alls well now but its always on my mind .they also said to make sure the little earth strap from the door to the van is in good condition and connected . they also told me of a little girl that got a shock when she opened the door but didnt tell me how bad it was .
dibs