We have just bought a caravan and it weighs 2.6t and is 22'. I still have to buy a vehicle to tow it with. I plan to retire in December and we want to travel around Australia. We aren't sure as to which way we will head to start with, just North if it's winter when we leave or South if it's summer.
I have been looking at Nissan DX's, 3 litre, turbo, manual. The specs all seem to point that this vehicle will tow 3.2t. I'm looking at around 2006 to 2009 and they seem to be around 25k to 30k with about 100k on the clock.
Are there any other suggestions out there for better options. Also is my choice of vehicle ok, or is 2.6t when it's loaded up with food, water and our gear, too heavy? your thoughts
Cheers
Alby
bill12 said
07:23 PM Jul 2, 2012
Get as big avehicle as you can afford.I would tend towards a 6 or 8 cylinder turbo diesel, with an auto trans, and a trans cooler.I am a ute man, but the station wagon types are ok , also. The early 3 ltr nissan diesels were hand grenades, and blew up when they just got out of warrentee.The big GM DIESELS or FORDS are great tow vehicle. Bill
Keith19837 said
07:48 PM Jul 2, 2012
EilsnAlby wrote:
Are there any other suggestions out there for better options. Also is my choice of vehicle ok, or is 2.6t when it's loaded up with food, water and our gear, too heavy? your thoughts
Cheers
Alby
Re weight, be a bit careful. Some manufacturers/dealers give a 'base' weight which may or may not include extras fitted by them. This also occurs with some motor vehicles. The weight of your van as given by the manufacturer/dealer will certainly not include your personal gear such as luggage, bedclothing, foodstuffs etc stc. After all, the manufacturer/dealer cannot ever know how much stuff you'll be taking nor how long you'll be going for. However, some don't include the weight of full water tank, full gas bottles or extra battery. This stuff will add up so allow for the extra. Example: My boat weighs 1.5 tonne 'base' weight. This is for a boat without bunk cushions, no batteries, stove, water tank toilet, full suit of sails, warps, anchors safety gear etc. By the time I have added these items, plus bedclothes, foodstuffs, auxilliary motor, fuel, pull and pushpits etc etc; the weight comes in at over two tonnes. This is without a standard crew of four and their personal gear for two or three nights. When you tow anything, you need to be aware that your tow weight will be greater that the base weight of the unit. Also your that your Gross Vehicle Mass (Combined weight of both tug and tow) is not exceeded. The G.V.M. includes all extras and people coming with you. This is a common error in Victoria at least. VicRoads and Police have the authority to pull you over and confiscate your vehicle if over the G.V.M. (This can include a non towing vehicle), Whilst I was employed by VicPol, there was an operation run by VicRoads on the Hume Hwy where they reeled in every towing vehicle they could and (with more than half pulled up) prohibited the driver from continuing on their way plus fines etc. In my opinion, go for a vehicle with plenty of towing capacity so that you have room to 'play with'. You will find that a smaller vehicle will use proportionately more fuel than a larger one when towing heavy weights, to say nothing of engine longevity. (See Collyn RIVERS Articles on Google). As was earlier mentioned, Ford, G.M. Isuzu, Toyota and Mitsubishi all have suitable vehicles. I do notice that Holden lost a contract to supply Alfa; and Isuzu are no longer in partnership with G.M. Some of the G.M.s are now using Daewoo parts as G.M. bought Daewoo a few years back. Diesels are worth looking at as an engine options. For what it's worth.
-- Edited by Keith19837 on Monday 2nd of July 2012 07:50:26 PM
EilsnAlby said
12:47 AM Jul 3, 2012
Thanks Bill12 for your quick response, will definitely look at the GM's and Fords.
Cheers
Alby
justcruisin01 said
02:37 AM Jul 3, 2012
Nissan Navara & Hilux are too tall in the first gear ratio's for heavy towing, Also the Navara is even higher in the reverse gear which is bad for reversing. Also some of the nissans bend the chassis in the centre when under a heavy load, depends on which country they are built in but cant remember which version this was .
JC.
PeterD said
06:04 AM Jul 3, 2012
bill12 wrote:
The early 3 ltr nissan diesels were hand grenades, and blew up when they just got out of warrentee.
Bill, that is ancient history. The problem was fixed nearly 10 years ago. All the "grenades" will have blown by now. The only people who keep bringing this up as a reason seem to have some sort of axe to grind or are simply anti Nissan without reason.
Alby, DX means little to most of us. What year models are you looking at? Also, is the 2.6 t the tare weight or the ATM? (The ATM is a figure you will find on the compliance plate and is the maximum your van can legally weigh.)
If your van has an ATM of 2.6 t then most of the twin cab utes will be a good tug. They will carry more weight than a station wagon style 4WD. You can also carry more bulky things like comfortable high back chairs. If you will be carrying fuel with you then the tub of the ute is the safest place to carry it.
EilsnAlby said
04:15 AM Jul 4, 2012
Thanx justcrusin01 ... I'm still looking ... cheers Alby
EilsnAlby said
04:55 AM Jul 4, 2012
G'day Keith ... thanx for your quick response ... I will look up the reference you gave. I have decided I need a diesel ... as I said ... at the 3ltr manuals. They seem to quote 3.2t tow capacity. That then gives me only 600kg to play with.
I've been looking further into 6 cylinder turbo diesel, either Nissan or Toyota ... they are both quoting 3.5t ... this would give me 900kg to play with. I think this will be the way I go. There are 2 water tanks, all up about 200ltr, so I'm thinking that leaves me about 700kg. The pair of us about 150kg ... leaving about 550kg.
I still have to get my head around GVM, Ball Weight and all the tech stuff I need to know. It would be nice to be able to enrol in a class and sit there and be shown ... and to have hands on practice.
Cheers
Alby
EilsnAlby said
05:09 AM Jul 4, 2012
G'day Bill .... I've been looking at models around 2005 to about 2008 ... I think your right about Grenades ... I think the last one blew up around 2003 models
The reason I've been looking for these models is the price, they seem very reasonable ... mid to high 20k's and only with about 100k on the clock. I must say I'm a Nissan man ... I've had 2 and found them to be really reliable. I have an older Patrol ... GQ a 1991, 6 cylinder turbo with a 5 speed manual.
I want to change vehicles as I find the older Patrol is quite thirsty. This one tows our small van great ... 4th gear, about 80 to 90 ... up hill down hill and i don't have to change very often.
Working out what weights I can tow ... 3.2t might do, the 3.5t of the 6cyl, turbo diesel would give me that little extra up my sleeve.
Cheers
Alby
Quietguy said
03:12 PM Jul 10, 2012
Naturally your choice will be set to a degree by your budget. While I gather the 3.0l patrols are ok re weight in manual form, all the tow tests I have read say they are lousy tow tugs. Not enough torque and power. So ok if you don't mind being passed by old ladies in wheelchairs on the hills
A chip and new exhaust would seem to be essential
However, I gather that while they don't look so hot on paper, the 4.2 L Patrols are a great and reliable tow tug, though not quick. But these can be hard to find.
Overall if your budget is limited one of the 4wd utes would seem the way to go
David
PeterD said
05:13 PM Jul 10, 2012
Quietguy wrote:
While I gather the 3.0l patrols are ok re weight in manual form, all the tow tests I have read say they are lousy tow tugs. Not enough torque and power. So ok if you don't mind being passed by old ladies in wheelchairs on the hills
I don't know who were doing the tow tests. All my friends with them towing 23' vans keep up with me towing an 18'er with a D40. It's only the rev head lead footers that seem to want to chip them. It does not matter what any manufacturer puts out there are some who want to "improve" them.
EilsnAlby said
04:53 AM Jul 11, 2012
That's what I'm finding now
Cheer
Alby
EilsnAlby said
04:58 AM Jul 11, 2012
One of the Fitter's at work is also licensed for gas conversions in vehicles. Phil was talking about putting a chip in, the other alternative was Bi-Fuel. This uses injecting gas into the diesel, better, bigger spark and more bang. I'm looking into this now also
Cheers
Alby
Grahame Readwin said
04:32 AM Jul 17, 2012
I think another question that should be answered do you want a saloon type vehicle for comfort or a ute(with or without canopy).
I've recently changed my vehicle and van and was fortunate enough to buy the vehicle with the van in mind. The van is a Winsor Genesis and comes in at roughly 2.5 tonnes fully loaded. I knew I wanted a minimum of 3 tonne towing, did not want a ute and a Landcruiser was out of the question for cost and economy reasons.
I tried a diesel Patrol, but it seemed too truck like for my tastes. I saw a Pathfinder and although not initially interested I did some research. As a 2.5 litre turbo diesel it had 3 tonne towing and an incredible 403 Nm of power.
Other caravanners told me to stay away from the manual version as you were for ever changing gears and loosing power.
I found a late 2009 model in showroom condition with 40,000 k on the clock, a Titanium leather pack and at only $41.000.
Here it gets interesting.
Whilst towing you always had the feeling the power was there, but you couldn't get access to it. Pulling away and going up hills you had to floor the accelerator to get the revs up. Having driven diesels for a few years this was an alien concept to me.
Now, I've been reading about chips for a while and always been sceptical. If they're so good why don't manufatures put them in from the start. Now I couldn't give a toss about manufacturers warranties, or voiding them. With this in mind I approached a local diesel tuning specialist. I won't name the chip as I'm not sure if it's against Forum rules, but the results were incredible. I had the chip fitted with a fuel pressure limiter, an exhaust gas controller and a wider DPR section of exhaust pipe. This cost $1600, but I think it's probably the best investment I've made and looks like paying for itself in no time.
Before I was getting 12 litres per 100 around town and anywhere between 16-26 litres per 100 towing (dependent on conditions).
I now get 7-7.5 litres per 100 around town, have had 5.7 litres per 100 on a run and tow at between 11.5-15 litres per 100. (the 15 litres was pushing into a head wind)
However, the best part is the performance. There is now instant power which to my mind means safety. On a recent run with the van to the Karajini travelling up the famed Great Northern Highway (mining conveyor belt) I was able to overtake roadtrains going uphill without putting a strain on the engine.
In conclusion, my advice is don't rule out any diesel vehicle, providing it has the towing capacity. All diesels have the ability to turn out a lot more power than they actually deliver.
rockylizard said
11:23 PM Jul 17, 2012
EilsnAlby wrote:
I still have to get my head around GVM, Ball Weight and all the tech stuff I need to know. It would be nice to be able to enrol in a class and sit there and be shown ... and to have hands on practice.
Cheers
Alby
Gday...
Perhaps this will give some understanding of the terms ATM, GTM, GVM etc
Thanx Grahame ... That seems to agree with what Phil was saying at work the other night. He has a Rodeo and got it chipped, it has made such a difference to the vehicle. It has made me rethink about trading my 1991 GQ Patrol, it's 4.2ltr turbo, diesel and 5 speed manual.
I've found it quite thirsty towing our small Avan, and was thinking about consumption while towing something about 1tonne heavier. The best run I've had out of it so far was 14 lires to the 100klms. That was from Kalgoorlie down to Norseman, and it's mostly flat some nice straight stretches. The wife wasn't really happy about sitting on about 80kph all the time.
Chipping it or going Bi fuel seems to be the way to go and I don't have to fork out a big heap of extra cash.
Cheers
Alby
PeterD said
05:07 AM Jul 18, 2012
John, where did those definition from? They are missing some vital words in most of those definition indicating that they are limits. Not having those words leads some to incorrectly talking of these terms as as actual weights that you get when you weigh your van. They are legally imposed maximum weights for your van and not weights that you can normally weigh.
Caravan Weights and Measures Here are copy and pastes from ADR-01. If you read them carefully they are easy to understand.
AGGREGATE TRAILER MASS (ATM) - the total mass of the laden trailer when carrying the maximum load recommended by the Manufacturer. This will include any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the Combination Vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane.
GROSS TRAILER MASS (GTM) - the mass transmitted to the ground by the Axle or Axles of the trailer when coupled to a drawing vehicle and carrying its maximum load approximately uniformly distributed over the load bearing area, and at which compliance with the appropriate Australian Design Rules has been or can be established.
TARE MASS - mass of a vehicle other than a L-group vehicle ready for service, unoccupied and unladen, with all fluid reservoirs filled to nominal capacity except for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any options fitted.
VSB-01 adds the following to the tare mass definition - (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks fitted to caravans).
The tare mass is the mass of the vehicle as it was delivered to the manufacturer. When you purchase your tug and then add things like a bull bar, winch, tow bar or anything else the tare weight of your tug is not altered. When the agent delivers your tug to you, the unladen weight will be increased by the weight of all the accessories that were added. The tare weight on your registration will be the figure that the manufacturer supplies and not the new unladen weight of the vehicle as you receive it. You may also add fixtures to your vehicle after delivery, again the tare weight is not altered.
The exact same rules apply to your van. The only difference is the manufacturer will know the exact correct weight of the tug. The van manufacturer will often estimate the weight. He may weigh the first unit of a particular model but will then change things as other units are produced, he then does not weigh that model again but it can be considerably heavier than the first one. The result is he issues a false tare weight.
Quite often the manufacturer does not build everything into the van that you order. The agent will add things like roll out awnings and battery systems. These extra bits add to the unladen weight of the van but do not alter the tare mass. Only the things you order that are provided by the van manufacturer are included in the tare weight. Many forum members think the extras should be included in the tare weight but these are the members that don't fully understand the process (I bet they would kick up a stink if they had to get their tug reassessed for its tare weight every time the added or removed accessories.)
Every time you add or remove weight to your vehicle (be it the tug or the van) this must be considered as part of the loading.
As for the the figure GVM (gross vehicle mass) you will see on your registration papers, even though legislation uses different terms for the mass of trailers to that of other vehicles, the motor registry authorities do not include fields for the caravan mass figures in the database. They simply insert the ATM figure in the GVM field.
rockylizard said
03:34 PM Jul 18, 2012
rockylizard wrote:
EilsnAlby wrote:
I still have to get my head around GVM, Ball Weight and all the tech stuff I need to know. It would be nice to be able to enrol in a class and sit there and be shown ... and to have hands on practice.
Cheers
Alby
Gday...
Perhaps this will give some understanding of the terms ATM, GTM, GVM etc
Cheers - John
Gday...
Thanks for the expansive and detailed explanation and definition of the various terms regarding the weights of vehicles/caravans. Certainly covers it in detail.
As my comments above, I was merely attempting to give some understanding to Alby rather than a lengthy lecture requiring expansive knowledge and understanding.
We have just bought a caravan and it weighs 2.6t and is 22'. I still have to buy a vehicle to tow it with. I plan to retire in December and we want to travel around Australia. We aren't sure as to which way we will head to start with, just North if it's winter when we leave or South if it's summer.
I have been looking at Nissan DX's, 3 litre, turbo, manual. The specs all seem to point that this vehicle will tow 3.2t. I'm looking at around 2006 to 2009 and they seem to be around 25k to 30k with about 100k on the clock.
Are there any other suggestions out there for better options. Also is my choice of vehicle ok, or is 2.6t when it's loaded up with food, water and our gear, too heavy? your thoughts
Cheers
Alby
-- Edited by Keith19837 on Monday 2nd of July 2012 07:50:26 PM
Cheers
Alby
Nissan Navara & Hilux are too tall in the first gear ratio's for heavy towing, Also the Navara is even higher in the reverse gear which is bad for reversing. Also some of the nissans bend the chassis in the centre when under a heavy load, depends on which country they are built in but cant remember which version this was .
JC.
Bill, that is ancient history. The problem was fixed nearly 10 years ago. All the "grenades" will have blown by now. The only people who keep bringing this up as a reason seem to have some sort of axe to grind or are simply anti Nissan without reason.
Alby, DX means little to most of us. What year models are you looking at? Also, is the 2.6 t the tare weight or the ATM? (The ATM is a figure you will find on the compliance plate and is the maximum your van can legally weigh.)
If your van has an ATM of 2.6 t then most of the twin cab utes will be a good tug. They will carry more weight than a station wagon style 4WD. You can also carry more bulky things like comfortable high back chairs. If you will be carrying fuel with you then the tub of the ute is the safest place to carry it.
Thanx justcrusin01 ... I'm still looking
... cheers Alby
G'day Keith ... thanx for your quick response ... I will look up the reference you gave. I have decided I need a diesel ... as I said ... at the 3ltr manuals. They seem to quote 3.2t tow capacity. That then gives me only 600kg to play with.
I've been looking further into 6 cylinder turbo diesel, either Nissan or Toyota ... they are both quoting 3.5t ... this would give me 900kg to play with. I think this will be the way I go. There are 2 water tanks, all up about 200ltr, so I'm thinking that leaves me about 700kg. The pair of us about 150kg ... leaving about 550kg.
I still have to get my head around GVM, Ball Weight and all the tech stuff I need to know. It would be nice to be able to enrol in a class and sit there and be shown ... and to have hands on practice.
Cheers
Alby
G'day Bill .... I've been looking at models around 2005 to about 2008 ... I think your right about Grenades ... I think the last one blew up around 2003 models
The reason I've been looking for these models is the price, they seem very reasonable ... mid to high 20k's and only with about 100k on the clock. I must say I'm a Nissan man
... I've had 2 and found them to be really reliable. I have an older Patrol ... GQ a 1991, 6 cylinder turbo with a 5 speed manual.
I want to change vehicles as I find the older Patrol is quite thirsty. This one tows our small van great ... 4th gear, about 80 to 90 ... up hill down hill and i don't have to change very often.
Working out what weights I can tow ... 3.2t might do, the 3.5t of the 6cyl, turbo diesel would give me that little extra up my sleeve.
Cheers
Alby
I don't know who were doing the tow tests. All my friends with them towing 23' vans keep up with me towing an 18'er with a D40. It's only the rev head lead footers that seem to want to chip them. It does not matter what any manufacturer puts out there are some who want to "improve" them.
That's what I'm finding now
Cheer
Alby
One of the Fitter's at work is also licensed for gas conversions in vehicles. Phil was talking about putting a chip in, the other alternative was Bi-Fuel. This uses injecting gas into the diesel, better, bigger spark and more bang. I'm looking into this now also
Cheers
Alby
I think another question that should be answered do you want a saloon type vehicle for comfort or a ute(with or without canopy).
I've recently changed my vehicle and van and was fortunate enough to buy the vehicle with the van in mind. The van is a Winsor Genesis and comes in at roughly 2.5 tonnes fully loaded. I knew I wanted a minimum of 3 tonne towing, did not want a ute and a Landcruiser was out of the question for cost and economy reasons.
I tried a diesel Patrol, but it seemed too truck like for my tastes. I saw a Pathfinder and although not initially interested I did some research. As a 2.5 litre turbo diesel it had 3 tonne towing and an incredible 403 Nm of power.
Other caravanners told me to stay away from the manual version as you were for ever changing gears and loosing power.
I found a late 2009 model in showroom condition with 40,000 k on the clock, a Titanium leather pack and at only $41.000.
Here it gets interesting.
Whilst towing you always had the feeling the power was there, but you couldn't get access to it. Pulling away and going up hills you had to floor the accelerator to get the revs up. Having driven diesels for a few years this was an alien concept to me.
Now, I've been reading about chips for a while and always been sceptical. If they're so good why don't manufatures put them in from the start. Now I couldn't give a toss about manufacturers warranties, or voiding them. With this in mind I approached a local diesel tuning specialist. I won't name the chip as I'm not sure if it's against Forum rules, but the results were incredible. I had the chip fitted with a fuel pressure limiter, an exhaust gas controller and a wider DPR section of exhaust pipe. This cost $1600, but I think it's probably the best investment I've made and looks like paying for itself in no time.
Before I was getting 12 litres per 100 around town and anywhere between 16-26 litres per 100 towing (dependent on conditions).
I now get 7-7.5 litres per 100 around town, have had 5.7 litres per 100 on a run and tow at between 11.5-15 litres per 100. (the 15 litres was pushing into a head wind)
However, the best part is the performance. There is now instant power which to my mind means safety. On a recent run with the van to the Karajini travelling up the famed Great Northern Highway (mining conveyor belt) I was able to overtake roadtrains going uphill without putting a strain on the engine.
In conclusion, my advice is don't rule out any diesel vehicle, providing it has the towing capacity. All diesels have the ability to turn out a lot more power than they actually deliver.
Gday...
Perhaps this will give some understanding of the terms ATM, GTM, GVM etc
Cheers - John
Thanx Grahame ... That seems to agree with what Phil was saying at work the other night. He has a Rodeo and got it chipped, it has made such a difference to the vehicle. It has made me rethink about trading my 1991 GQ Patrol, it's 4.2ltr turbo, diesel and 5 speed manual.
I've found it quite thirsty towing our small Avan, and was thinking about consumption while towing something about 1tonne heavier. The best run I've had out of it so far was 14 lires to the 100klms. That was from Kalgoorlie down to Norseman, and it's mostly flat some nice straight stretches. The wife wasn't really happy about sitting on about 80kph all the time.
Chipping it or going Bi fuel seems to be the way to go and I don't have to fork out a big heap of extra cash.
Cheers
Alby
Caravan Weights and Measures
Here are copy and pastes from ADR-01. If you read them carefully they are easy to understand.
AGGREGATE TRAILER MASS (ATM) - the total mass of the laden trailer when
carrying the maximum load recommended by the Manufacturer. This will
include any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the Combination
Vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane.
GROSS TRAILER MASS (GTM) - the mass transmitted to the ground by the Axle or
Axles of the trailer when coupled to a drawing vehicle and carrying its maximum
load approximately uniformly distributed over the load bearing area, and at which
compliance with the appropriate Australian Design Rules has been or can be
established.
TARE MASS - mass of a vehicle other than a L-group vehicle ready for service,
unoccupied and unladen, with all fluid reservoirs filled to nominal capacity except
for fuel, which shall be 10 litres only, and with all standard equipment and any
options fitted.
VSB-01 adds the following to the tare mass definition - (Fluid reservoirs do not include water tanks and waste water tanks
fitted to caravans).
The tare mass is the mass of the vehicle as it was delivered to the manufacturer. When you purchase your tug and then add things like a bull bar, winch, tow bar or anything else the tare weight of your tug is not altered. When the agent delivers your tug to you, the unladen weight will be increased by the weight of all the accessories that were added. The tare weight on your registration will be the figure that the manufacturer supplies and not the new unladen weight of the vehicle as you receive it. You may also add fixtures to your vehicle after delivery, again the tare weight is not altered.
The exact same rules apply to your van. The only difference is the manufacturer will know the exact correct weight of the tug. The van manufacturer will often estimate the weight. He may weigh the first unit of a particular model but will then change things as other units are produced, he then does not weigh that model again but it can be considerably heavier than the first one. The result is he issues a false tare weight.
Quite often the manufacturer does not build everything into the van that you order. The agent will add things like roll out awnings and battery systems. These extra bits add to the unladen weight of the van but do not alter the tare mass. Only the things you order that are provided by the van manufacturer are included in the tare weight. Many forum members think the extras should be included in the tare weight but these are the members that don't fully understand the process (I bet they would kick up a stink if they had to get their tug reassessed for its tare weight every time the added or removed accessories.)
Every time you add or remove weight to your vehicle (be it the tug or the van) this must be considered as part of the loading.
As for the the figure GVM (gross vehicle mass) you will see on your registration papers, even though legislation uses different terms for the mass of trailers to that of other vehicles, the motor registry authorities do not include fields for the caravan mass figures in the database. They simply insert the ATM figure in the GVM field.
Gday...
Thanks for the expansive and detailed explanation and definition of the various terms regarding the weights of vehicles/caravans. Certainly covers it in detail.
As my comments above, I was merely attempting to give some understanding to Alby rather than a lengthy lecture requiring expansive knowledge and understanding.
Cheers - John