My bro in law is having problems with sway at around 100kph . He has been towing his existing van,( 18ft kedron tandem) for prob 10 years or more with a Nissan patrol ( no sway probs) but now that he has got a new tow vehicle , Pajero, he gets the sways up !Any ideas? he is looking at the Hayman Reece control bar ( the one with the little towball attached). I am hoping that he will join the forum soon, but any suggestions will be appreciated.
Dellalan said
06:36 PM Jan 13, 2012
Hi Woody, I have a similar problem.
My previous car was a Nissan Patrol, towing a 21ft Jayco. Didn't have too many problems with sway with this setup. Now I have a Prado and tow a 24ft Windsor and have problems with sway now.
I have just bought the Reece Anti Sway and fitted it, but havnt really tested it out yet. Will do in the next couple of weeks.
I just feel that the reason I was noticing the sway with the Prado is that it feels a lot lighter than the Patrol. Not sure of exact weights.
Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I would also be interested to hear from others who have used them and their effectiveness. In particular, info on correct fitting. After I put mine on, I took the van for a short trip and noticed that the A Frame bracket had moved slightly backward and forward. I retightened the bolts, but havnt been out again as yet. Don't think it would be too effective if it was moving on A Frame.
Regards. Alan.
justcruisin01 said
09:02 PM Jan 13, 2012
Interesting , you have both gone for smaller & lighter tow vehicles.
One with the same heavy van , the second has uped the van size as well.
Tend to think the answer is obvious. Both vehicles are a shorter wheel base than the originals plus the nissans are a much wider wheel track. The smaller tugs have a much smaller foot print in comparason so much easer for the tail to wag the dog.
PeterD said
09:54 AM Jan 14, 2012
I think you should be looking at WDH (weight distribution hitch) first. Friction anti-sway should only be used in a belt and braces type application and not to cure sway. get your rig stable first and then add it.
The WDH will put the weight back on the front wheels that is removed by hitching the van. If your tug is not stable (due to reduced steerage ability) then the whole rig will not be stable.
Nicholstones said
04:01 PM Jan 14, 2012
While swaying is certainly a problem that needs to be investigated and fixed, I also suggest that towing an 18ft van above 100km (as presumably done by Woody's bil) is not a good idea.
gold dandelion said
03:21 PM Jan 15, 2012
are your vans level when hooked up, if uneven this will cause sway, i put air bags on my pathfinder $800 found this to be excellent, easy to inflate or deflate. saved using sway bars.
Dellalan said
04:26 PM Jan 15, 2012
May have been a little unclear with my post. I use WDH and the van and car are perfectly level. Like most, my sway problems are during winds and when heavy vehicles are overtaking me. I take precautions during these situations by slowing slightly, but I fitted the anti sway to see if it would help as well.
I understand that the Prado is lighter than the Patrol.
My question was really about the correct fitting. When I took the van for a short trip, I noticed that the Anti Sway bracket on the A Frame had moved back and forth. No too much, but enough to indicate that it wasnt tight enough. I now have the bolts as tight as possible. Question is more in relation to the On Off Handle and getting it right. The instructions just say - Turn the handle clockwise, tighten firmly until the handle is parallel with the main body. Just having difficulty on exactly how tight. So if anyone has one and experience on how to set correctly, it would be appreciated.
Alan
woody said
06:45 PM Jan 15, 2012
Thanks folks will pass this all on tho BIL
Going gone said
04:41 PM Jan 17, 2012
I too, like Gold Dandelion, had airbags installed on my Pajero. A friend advised me to do this and I'm glad I listened. I was going to pay for new Hayman Reece load levellers (not anti-sway, which is something totally different!), but the airbags, when pumped up to the required setting, put the weight back on the front wheels, levelling the car and van perfectly. When I'm not towing I deflate the bags to somewhere around 8-10kpi's for a softer ride. In short: perfect!
Popeye said
07:02 PM Jan 17, 2012
When towing what do you have them at.
Going gone said
01:34 AM Jan 18, 2012
For my van and car I find that having them on 21 is just right.
Delta18 said
10:55 PM Jan 21, 2012
Going gone wrote:
I too, like Gold Dandelion, had airbags installed on my Pajero. A friend advised me to do this and I'm glad I listened. I was going to pay for new Hayman Reece load levellers (not anti-sway, which is something totally different!), but the airbags, when pumped up to the required setting, put the weight back on the front wheels, levelling the car and van perfectly. When I'm not towing I deflate the bags to somewhere around 8-10kpi's for a softer ride. In short: perfect!
Please do not fall for, nor pass on this phurphy. Someone WILL get hurt.
Air-bags will raise the rear of a car that has weak suspension but it will NOT transfer weight to the front. This can only be achieved with a correctly fitted Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH).
A heavy van will significantly reduce the weight on the Steer wheels which obviously is very dangerous.
Delto 18. Beat me to it Mate. Ditto to your comments re WDH and air bags. OJ
Going gone said
09:57 AM Jan 23, 2012
Mmmm! Sorry guys, but I've travelled some 20,000 k's with the car (steering) and the van (towing) performing beautifully to date (all around the east coast and back to WA) with no sway at all. Mind you, I'm very conscious of sticking close to the recommended 90 kph and the van certainly is NOT overloaded or heavy. Also, I've taken measurements at the front wheels and every time I pump up the airbags the measurements come back to near where they should be for safe steering. I've NEVER noticed any difference in the steering. Thanks for the link - I've read it and, although most of it wasn't new to me, I was intrigued with the varying opinions about the matter. All I can say is that the proof is in the pudding for mine - not all rigs are the same and therefore shouldn't be tarred with the same brush. Also, I certainly wouldn't call it a "furphy" (Australian slang for a rumour, or an erroneous or improbable story) as I've had expert advice on the matter, before having the airbags installed. But I appreciate both your inputs...
jimricho said
04:17 PM Jan 23, 2012
My little rig tows very nicely without the need for a WDH, but it is relatively small although not light for its size and being a camper trailer has a relatively low centre of gravity. I have the air bag helpers to counteract the sag at the rear, but it towed fine before I fitted them. (It has a Treg hitch which is not compatible with a WDH)
In contrast I have friends who own a Jayco Sterling and it was a nightmare to tow before they fitted a Hayman Reece WDH. It now tows fine.
I guess it's "horses for courses".
Ron and Shirley said
07:56 PM Jan 23, 2012
jimricho wrote:
(It has a Treg hitch which is not compatible with a WDH)
A Treg Hitch is quite compatible with a HR WDH whilst driving the highways and roads, including outback dirt roads and forest roads. When driving tracks etc where articulation may come into play then one just removes the WDH.
Both my old wind-up camper (heavy ball weight) and now the van came with Treg Hitches. I have used the WDH all the time without any issue. Would not leave home without the WDH.
There has been a few times I took the WDH off with my wind-up camper when the going got a little tough/rough. Once was when there was a creek crossing and the entrance and exit was a bit sharp/steep and on other occasions the tracks were pretty ordinary and some articulation was needed. On these occasions you are in 4WD and going pretty slow so it is not really a problem.
Before getting the van I beefed up my Patrols sagging suspension and had rear air bags fitted (run at 25psi when van attached). The front of my Patrol only moves 5mm when the van (around 200kg ball weight) is attached. Adjusting the WDH tightly does not seem to make much difference to this 5mm measurement, which is well within the HR recommendations.
Initially I did many highway kilometres with and without the WDH whilst towing the van. The overall ride certainly does feel more comfortable with the WDH attached, maybe psychological I dont know, but I continue to use the WDH on the open road.
Ron and Shirley said
01:28 PM Jan 24, 2012
Jim
Hyman Reece use to make a special WDH hitch for the Treg which I had when I had my wind-up camper where the Treg was located at the bottom of the A frame.. Big and bloody heavy thing that I dont think they make any more. As you can see like the standard WDH but with a big solid bit underneath for the Treg. The Treg coupled down low with the bars going above the coupling. Suited the wind-up as the Treg was attached to the bottom of the A frame.
At the time, around 1998, Hardings Caravan here in Melbourne were just using the standard HR WDH and cutting the lugs/spigots off the bottom of the receiver and attaching as per a normal tow ball. As HR were making the special unit then I did not really like Hardings idea.
With my new caravan the Treg was attached to the top of the A frame and this special Treg WDH hitch I just could not get to work. Basically the bars would foul the A frame big time.
So I then followed what Hardings did, as having seen many examples of the same thing on my travels I now felt comfortable with the idea. I managed to pick up cheaply a second hand standard HR WDH and instead of grinding off the lugs from the bottom of the Treg hitch I used a spacer. Works and works well.
-- Edited by Ron and Shirley on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 01:30:58 PM
I had actually wondered about this, Ron and Shirley, my comment was based on the answer to a question I asked the HR rep at last year's Rosehill Show. He gave me contact details of an engineer at HR who he said was looking into this. I have thought that maybe all that's needed is a simple modification (if necessary) is to to take the spigots of the Treg bracket (that replaces the towball) to stop the bracket from turning.
As I treated the issue as somewhat academic in my case I didn't follow it up, if I was having a problem I certainly would have.
Jim
jimricho said
02:39 AM Jan 25, 2012
Thanks for that, I wouldn't like to grind off the lugs as they are there for a purpose. That spacer looks a good idea. I've owned the rig for three and a half years and each year I've towed it to Nth Qld without any problems. The ATM is only 1350 kg so unless something arises to change my mind I'll stay with the current game plan. If I do reconsider I'll look at a less expensive set up as well as the HR. I would even consider replacing the hitch with a ball, not a big deal to do, but as I implied earlier it's all academic, but thanks for the info anyway.
Jim
PeterD said
06:01 PM Jan 25, 2012
Jim, No need to modify anything to make a Treg hitch fit. Just get the bars that don't need modifying - http://caravansplus.com.au/images/350-05600M.tiff - have a look at the new style HR bars, they are similar to the Eaz-Lift.
-- Edited by PeterD on Wednesday 25th of January 2012 06:02:11 PM
jimricho said
04:26 PM Jan 26, 2012
Thanks for that info Peter, at this stage I'm not moving on this but I could change my mind at some time in the future as my rig tows quite well without one. If so I'll follow that one up.
If you check the images in Ron and Shirley's earlier post you'll see that there are two lugs (only one visible in the picture) on the Treg bracket that normally fit over the hitch receiver to stop the bracket from turning. It seems to me that this could foul on a WDH hitch receiver. This is why R&S have added the spacer under it. You may be more familiar with this than I am as I haven't investigated this very far.
Cruising Granny said
10:56 PM Feb 1, 2012
To start, you need to ensure your vehicle carries most of the weight, and the van is loaded evenly with weight forward and over the axles. Keep the tail light, especially if a bathroom is included on the rear. They add a lot of weight, and then they add a washing machine. The lighter, shorter vehicles will certainly tow differently to the bigger, heavier tug. Make adjustments before you go into major engineering and technical modifications. The wobbles could be resolved with some simple management. Also ensure all tyres are adequately inflated to do the job you're asking in relation to the weight involved.
The Hayman Reese towing gear is strong, sturdy and it works, but only if the van and tug are loaded correctly. Then slow down! No way in the world should you ever be towing faster than 90kph. So many things can go wrong at any speed, and much quicker if you're travelling faster. Hit a pot hole, blow a tyre in the tug or the van and you'll get speared off the road into the scrub or into oncoming traffic. Slow down, especially if you're pushing into head winds. Slow down.
-- Edited by Cruising Granny on Wednesday 1st of February 2012 10:57:07 PM
davidm said
01:56 AM Feb 2, 2012
get your self a hayman reece anti sway control and have it welded to your tow bar and bolted to tour A FRAME.tighten the lever up very tight till it is in line with the control and you will not have a poblem. I have had one for some 40000klm and it works a treat. when you feeel the lever getting easy to tighten nip up the bolt a quarter of a turn.
T he whole unit must be fitted the right distance apart or it will bend when turn sharply or when reversing
Delboy said
10:44 PM Feb 2, 2012
PeterD wrote:
I think you should be looking at WDH (weight distribution hitch) first. Friction anti-sway should only be used in a belt and braces type application and not to cure sway. get your rig stable first and then add it.
The WDH will put the weight back on the front wheels that is removed by hitching the van. If your tug is not stable (due to reduced steerage ability) then the whole rig will not be stable.
Whilst I agree entirely with the recommendation to fix the underlying cause before adding anti-sway solutions I am not convinced the starting point is to add a WDH as the first action, this assumes basics such as ball weight are already correct?
Friction based solutions such as the Alko are a little more than belt and braces in my opinion. They can be very effective in preventing or limiting sway from escalating to a point where total loss of control is inevitable, this is why a large number of European manufacturers now fit them as standard.
My small European car towing a 16ft van shows a measurable benefit from the Alko which has been proven at speeds in excess of 120kph by running with it engaged and then repeating on the same stretch of road by inducing some sway.
Recognize we all have our own opinions but I would want to make certain the basics are right before adding solutions that may only mask an underlying issue, this includes fitment of a friction or spring based anti-sway device.
My bro in law is having problems with sway at around 100kph . He has been towing his existing van,( 18ft kedron tandem) for prob 10 years or more with a Nissan patrol ( no sway probs) but now that he has got a new tow vehicle , Pajero, he gets the sways up !Any ideas? he is looking at the Hayman Reece control bar ( the one with the little towball attached). I am hoping that he will join the forum soon, but any suggestions will be appreciated.
My previous car was a Nissan Patrol, towing a 21ft Jayco. Didn't have too many problems with sway with this setup. Now I have a Prado and tow a 24ft Windsor and have problems with sway now.
I have just bought the Reece Anti Sway and fitted it, but havnt really tested it out yet. Will do in the next couple of weeks.
I just feel that the reason I was noticing the sway with the Prado is that it feels a lot lighter than the Patrol. Not sure of exact weights.
Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I would also be interested to hear from others who have used them and their effectiveness. In particular, info on correct fitting. After I put mine on, I took the van for a short trip and noticed that the A Frame bracket had moved slightly backward and forward. I retightened the bolts, but havnt been out again as yet. Don't think it would be too effective if it was moving on A Frame.
Regards. Alan.
Interesting , you have both gone for smaller & lighter tow vehicles.
One with the same heavy van , the second has uped the van size as well.
Tend to think the answer is obvious. Both vehicles are a shorter wheel base than the originals plus the nissans are a much wider wheel track. The smaller tugs have a much smaller foot print in comparason so much easer for the tail to wag the dog.
The WDH will put the weight back on the front wheels that is removed by hitching the van. If your tug is not stable (due to reduced steerage ability) then the whole rig will not be stable.
I understand that the Prado is lighter than the Patrol.
My question was really about the correct fitting. When I took the van for a short trip, I noticed that the Anti Sway bracket on the A Frame had moved back and forth. No too much, but enough to indicate that it wasnt tight enough. I now have the bolts as tight as possible. Question is more in relation to the On Off Handle and getting it right. The instructions just say - Turn the handle clockwise, tighten firmly until the handle is parallel with the main body. Just having difficulty on exactly how tight. So if anyone has one and experience on how to set correctly, it would be appreciated.
Alan
I too, like Gold Dandelion, had airbags installed on my Pajero. A friend advised me to do this and I'm glad I listened. I was going to pay for new Hayman Reece load levellers (not anti-sway, which is something totally different!), but the airbags, when pumped up to the required setting, put the weight back on the front wheels, levelling the car and van perfectly. When I'm not towing I deflate the bags to somewhere around 8-10kpi's for a softer ride. In short: perfect!
When towing what do you have them at.
Please do not fall for, nor pass on this phurphy. Someone WILL get hurt.
Air-bags will raise the rear of a car that has weak suspension but it will NOT transfer weight to the front. This can only be achieved with a correctly fitted Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH).
A heavy van will significantly reduce the weight on the Steer wheels which obviously is very dangerous.
Have a read here for more information.
Cheers Neil
Delto 18.
Beat me to it Mate.
Ditto to your comments re WDH and air bags.
OJ
Thanks for the link - I've read it and, although most of it wasn't new to me, I was intrigued with the varying opinions about the matter. All I can say is that the proof is in the pudding for mine - not all rigs are the same and therefore shouldn't be tarred with the same brush. Also, I certainly wouldn't call it a "furphy" (Australian slang for a rumour, or an erroneous or improbable story) as I've had expert advice on the matter, before having the airbags installed.
But I appreciate both your inputs...
In contrast I have friends who own a Jayco Sterling and it was a nightmare to tow before they fitted a Hayman Reece WDH. It now tows fine.
I guess it's "horses for courses".
A Treg Hitch is quite compatible with a HR WDH whilst driving the highways and roads, including outback dirt roads and forest roads. When driving tracks etc where articulation may come into play then one just removes the WDH.
Both my old wind-up camper (heavy ball weight) and now the van came with Treg Hitches. I have used the WDH all the time without any issue. Would not leave home without the WDH.
There has been a few times I took the WDH off with my wind-up camper when the going got a little tough/rough. Once was when there was a creek crossing and the entrance and exit was a bit sharp/steep and on other occasions the tracks were pretty ordinary and some articulation was needed. On these occasions you are in 4WD and going pretty slow so it is not really a problem.
Before getting the van I beefed up my Patrols sagging suspension and had rear air bags fitted (run at 25psi when van attached). The front of my Patrol only moves 5mm when the van (around 200kg ball weight) is attached. Adjusting the WDH tightly does not seem to make much difference to this 5mm measurement, which is well within the HR recommendations.
Initially I did many highway kilometres with and without the WDH whilst towing the van. The overall ride certainly does feel more comfortable with the WDH attached, maybe psychological I dont know, but I continue to use the WDH on the open road.
Jim
Hyman Reece use to make a special WDH hitch for the Treg which I had when I had my wind-up camper where the Treg was located at the bottom of the A frame.. Big and bloody heavy thing that I dont think they make any more. As you can see like the standard WDH but with a big solid bit underneath for the Treg. The Treg coupled down low with the bars going above the coupling. Suited the wind-up as the Treg was attached to the bottom of the A frame.
At the time, around 1998, Hardings Caravan here in Melbourne were just using the standard HR WDH and cutting the lugs/spigots off the bottom of the receiver and attaching as per a normal tow ball. As HR were making the special unit then I did not really like Hardings idea.
With my new caravan the Treg was attached to the top of the A frame and this special Treg WDH hitch I just could not get to work. Basically the bars would foul the A frame big time.
So I then followed what Hardings did, as having seen many examples of the same thing on my travels I now felt comfortable with the idea. I managed to pick up cheaply a second hand standard HR WDH and instead of grinding off the lugs from the bottom of the Treg hitch I used a spacer. Works and works well.
-- Edited by Ron and Shirley on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 01:30:58 PM
As I treated the issue as somewhat academic in my case I didn't follow it up, if I was having a problem I certainly would have.
Jim
Jim
Jim, No need to modify anything to make a Treg hitch fit. Just get the bars that don't need modifying - http://caravansplus.com.au/images/350-05600M.tiff - have a look at the new style HR bars, they are similar to the Eaz-Lift.
-- Edited by PeterD on Wednesday 25th of January 2012 06:02:11 PM
If you check the images in Ron and Shirley's earlier post you'll see that there are two lugs (only one visible in the picture) on the Treg bracket that normally fit over the hitch receiver to stop the bracket from turning. It seems to me that this could foul on a WDH hitch receiver. This is why R&S have added the spacer under it. You may be more familiar with this than I am as I haven't investigated this very far.
To start, you need to ensure your vehicle carries most of the weight, and the van is loaded evenly with weight forward and over the axles. Keep the tail light, especially if a bathroom is included on the rear. They add a lot of weight, and then they add a washing machine. The lighter, shorter vehicles will certainly tow differently to the bigger, heavier tug. Make adjustments before you go into major engineering and technical modifications. The wobbles could be resolved with some simple management. Also ensure all tyres are adequately inflated to do the job you're asking in relation to the weight involved.
The Hayman Reese towing gear is strong, sturdy and it works, but only if the van and tug are loaded correctly.
Then slow down! No way in the world should you ever be towing faster than 90kph. So many things can go wrong at any speed, and much quicker if you're travelling faster. Hit a pot hole, blow a tyre in the tug or the van and you'll get speared off the road into the scrub or into oncoming traffic.
Slow down, especially if you're pushing into head winds. Slow down.
-- Edited by Cruising Granny on Wednesday 1st of February 2012 10:57:07 PM
get your self a hayman reece anti sway control and have it welded to your tow bar and bolted to tour A FRAME.tighten the lever up very tight till it is in line with the control and you will not have a poblem. I have had one for some 40000klm and it works a treat. when you feeel the lever getting easy to tighten nip up the bolt a quarter of a turn.
T he whole unit must be fitted the right distance apart or it will bend when turn sharply or when reversing