Yesterday I received the latest edition of Caravan+Rv Australia. Like the other RV magazines they review caravans and tow vehicles. I live in hope that one day I may see a reviewer and the editor of one of these mags point out the shortfalls and/or bad workmanship of a product. But for various reasons this is never likely to happen.
One of the reviews was for a Crusader La Famigli Grande. This is a large 4 berth family van. While Im happy to admit Crusader are one of my favourite brands this one didnt hit the mark. The worst the review could say was A screen into the kids room would be a must, and the trim around the basin. My view is that the van as reviewed is Unfit for Purpose and the reviewer should say so. The weights just dont add up. TARE = 2280Kg ATM = 2680 Therefore Personal Load Capacity = 400Kg. Yep, pretty well standard for the industry. But a closer look at those figures and the features of the van reveals the following: 3 X 95 Lt water tanks = 285Kg water. Truma HWS = 14 Kg of water. (Pretty small and inadequate for a family of 4) Toilet = 10 Kg water (estimate) Water filter = 1Kg water. 2 X 9Kg LPG cylinders 18Kg LPG Total weight added = 328Kg That leaves a personal load allowance of only 72Kg for 4 people. This 72Kg must accommodate hoses, leads, bucket, broom, clothes, bedding, towels, food & drink, cooking utensils, cutlery, crockery, pots & pans, and all the other goodies a family must carry. It cant possibly be done unless they use sleeping bags and eat out. As I said, Unfit of Purpose.
The next one reviewed was a Bushmaster Redgum The worst the reviewer could say was, The shower door was sticky, but it only requires an adjustment. Some people might find the van to big, but others would describe it as palatial. But again its let down by the weights. TARE = 2570 ATM = 2970 Therefore Load Capacity is again 400Kg. This van features: 2 X 95 Lt water tanks = 190Kg water. Suburban HWS = 21Kg water. Toilet = 10Kg water (estimate) 2 x 9kg LPG cylinders = 18Kg LPG Total weight added = 239Kg. This is pretty much in line with most vans on the market today. Personal Load allowance is therefore 161Kg. Although this van is a 2 berth model its load allowance is still inadequate, but not as bad the 4 berth Crusader with 3 water tanks.
I can find no reference to Bushmaster being members of the RVMAA or CTIAV, but Crusader are members of both associations. While Bushmaster are not association members their website reveals that they have been manufacturing vans since 1987 I fully understand that these associations have little or no power to influence any manufacturer to apply realistic personal load allowances; one would think that they would be vigorously lobbying the authorities to regulate to fix the widespread problem of vans not having adequate personal load allowances.
A very large percentage of vans on the road are unknown to their owners illegally and maybe dangerously overweight
A quick walk around dealers yard, caravan show or perusing RV magazines highlights the fact that this problem is not isolated to the two manufactures mentioned above, but is evident throughout the industry. I apologise to both Crusader and Bushmaster for just naming their vans, but unfortunately they were the two Australian manufactured vans featured in the magazine and thus used as an example for an industry wide problem.
I do understand that most manufacturers (Those above included) will increase the ATM on request, but I am reporting on the weights of the vans as reviewed and as would be sold to unsuspecting unknowing buyers.
Other articles in the magazine were vehicle towing reviews. While I cant comment on the vehicles reviewed I can point out that extended towing mirrors were not evident in any of the photos. This is best highlighted by the photo of a vehicle towing a van down a hill on page 72.
Cheers, Ozjohn E&OE
Cupie said
08:11 PM Aug 11, 2011
HI ..
I couldn't agree more.
I have long wondered at the rediculous personal items weight allowance on most vans that I have encountered.
They provide luxury vans with loads of cupboard space, water tanks, HWS, top tank toilets but with little realistic allowance for things like clothes, groceries crockery, cutlery & things to plug into all those power points. Not to mention the aftermarket solar systems, in house batteries & regulators that are so popular these days.
Of course the fishermen then sometimes put the outboard motor on the A frame collapsable trailer & maybe a bike on the rear. An aftermarket washing machine & one of those beaut rubber floor mats compleats the picture.
I recon that there are lots of severly overloaded vans out there.
(I have just finished a clean out of my van in readiness for a touring trip & was amazed at the accumulated stuff that I could discard. Things like - 5 fishing rods, 6 reels, large tackle box with several years stock of sinkers & stuff, 3 fishing knives, 10 coffee mugs, 3 salad bowls including a lead crystal one. A heavy stretcher with all its bedding, 4 chairs, plus the two steamer chairs that go in the tug, 5 tarpaulins & associated poles. A great pile of tent pegs too ... I could go on & on.)
-- Edited by Cupie on Thursday 11th of August 2011 08:14:09 PM
Pam said
08:57 PM Aug 11, 2011
what would the average personal items weigh?
Cupie said
11:58 AM Aug 12, 2011
Pam wrote:
what would the average personal items weigh?
Well
It depends very much on the individual & what sort of trip you are on.
eg .. If going on a week or so at the beach, if off for a couple of months touring, if living in the van full time & moving round regularly .. etc etc.
Some examples of common items off the top of the head -
Airport luggage limits are around 23kg per suitcase. Easy to go over weight in a case full. I think that for touring a couple would have at least 3 suitcase equivalents of clothes. More like 4.
Plus the equivalent of a 7Kg carry on each for toiletries at least.
(that's 83kg for starters)
Then there's bedding, towels, washers, teatowels et al ..
(another 10Kg maybe)
Don't forget the groceries .. What does your weekly shopping weigh?
(40kg?)
What about the crockery, cutlery, pots & pans lus your favourite BBQ
(20kg?)
Of course a couple of wine casks is 8kg.
For the things like water & Gas
One water tank full of say 70L is 70 Kg (lots have two 90L ones)
The 20L hot water system is another 20L
Two 9kg gas bottles.
Annex sides .. have you tried to lift them all at once .. must be at least 30Kg all up including poles.
Of course that is just the major items that come quickly to mind. I have a couple of check lists that run to a couple of pages. Haven't bothered to weigh or estimate them. All the little things that we carry quickly add up.
In summary it is best to load up as you normall would & then use a public weigh bridge before & after.
ozjohn said
03:35 PM Aug 12, 2011
Back in another life for two people my recommendation to clients was a bare minimum of 300Kg plus water and gas, and another 30Kg minimum for each extra berth. Cheers, Ozjohn
-- Edited by ozjohn on Friday 12th of August 2011 03:36:05 PM
justcruisin01 said
09:44 PM Aug 12, 2011
Ozjohn, I beleive too many people these days think that if they have a reversing camera on the van that it servers the same purpose as reveiw mirrors.
This is a crazy , it may be good to see directly behind you but I would think that nothing could be seen in adjacent lanes, especialy when traffic is comming up along side,even with standard mirrors on the car there is a blind spot.
In addition, I stand corrected on the recent topic of the van that was made in China, I had seen them around here before & yes, they were at the show here last weekend.I was informed that they were built here, then moved to China, & are now back here in Newcastle. Thanks.
Wombat 280 said
10:45 PM Aug 12, 2011
ozjohn wrote:
Back in another life for two people my recommendation to clients was a bare minimum of 300Kg plus water and gas, and another 30Kg minimum for each extra berth. Cheers, Ozjohn
-- Edited by ozjohn on Friday 12th of August 2011 03:36:05 PM
Throw in an extra spare wheel, bottle jack and jack blocks to get that extra height, basic tool kit, on van stone protector , hoses , spare annex poles ropes pegs . That leaves enough room for a pair of shorts and a blue singlet and pair of thongs , which is all you need in the north
Havago said
10:16 AM Aug 15, 2011
Hi ozjohn. The magazine forgot to say they were nudists. Havago.
chris & terry said
02:15 PM Aug 15, 2011
ozjohn, this why your opinions are respected & your support for this forum invaluable. Thank you. Just wondering if you read the July issue (No.160) of Caravan & Motorhome. There was a feature article by Rob & Marg, "On Tour Debrief". On page 77 under the heading "how we travelled", the caravan was stated as 30' overall, 23' internal, & having a travelling weight of 2900kg. The tow vehicle was said to have a towing limit of three tonnes "& we used all but 100kg of that limit." Fully loaded with fuel, driver, passenger & luggage, the vehicle weighed 2500kg. "Verdict" of this section was, "After 40,000km, three-quarters of that towing a 2900kg van, we can report the vehicle performed extremely well. The significant issue was the weight difference of 400kg between the caravan and the car, and as the 120L fuel tank emptied, that difference widened. In hindsight, a preferred combination would be the Isuzu towing a load of up to 2600kg or to have a tow vehicle with a towing capacity of 3500kg."
Wondering what your thoughts on this article, authored by supposedly experienced & respected caravaners.
My thoughts are that even if a van of 2600kg were chosen, its weight would remain relatively static, whereas the car's max weight would be 2500kg, & would only decrease from that as fuel levels dropped. I would have preferred a van of 2000-2200kg max. I would be looking at the weight of the car AS WELL as it's towing capacity.
I would presume this couple would be sponsored to a degree during this extended trip with their van & car, but as you say, a little balance would be beneficial to us traveling novices planning trips.
ozjohn said
04:12 PM Aug 15, 2011
Chris & Terry,
Thank you for your kind words. I'm no expert on towing matters, but from personal experience and information from fellow vanner who's input I respect, I have formed the view that with the same weight ditribution a rig is inherently safer if the tow vehicle is heavier than the trailer (Van).
However, a lighter tow vehicle can also be quite stable providing the that difference in weight is not extreme, maybe 10% - 12% With this difference in weight the load distribution of trailer would have greater importance and a WDH would I feel be absolutely necassary to maintain an evenly distributed weight in the vehicle tyres for maximum stability.
Unfortunately vans are becomming longer and heavier and thus more unstable, especially as the speed increases.
Cheers, Ozjohn.
PS> I won't waste my money on the magazines, only read them if I get them for nothing.
-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 15th of August 2011 04:14:08 PM
-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 15th of August 2011 04:15:54 PM
-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 15th of August 2011 04:17:10 PM
Cruising Granny said
11:25 PM Aug 18, 2011
With all that considered, the position of the axles and the weight behind them also makes a difference to the weight distribution between the 2 vehicles. I carry most of the heaviest items such as the annexe walls etc in the tug. Generally I travel relatively light, but I do have 2 spares on the back bumper of the van, with a split system aircon. Hopefully balanced by what is under the bed in front, and the tug. Everything is very stable and steady on the road, and the tyres are wearing evenly, which is my best way of judging it all. I've never put it over the weighbridge, but I estimate they both weigh about 2.5 tonnes on the road.
Yesterday I received the latest edition of Caravan+Rv Australia. Like the other RV magazines they review caravans and tow vehicles. I live in hope that one day I may see a reviewer and the editor of one of these mags point out the shortfalls and/or bad workmanship of a product. But for various reasons this is never likely to happen.
One of the reviews was for a Crusader La Famigli Grande. This is a large 4 berth family van. While Im happy to admit Crusader are one of my favourite brands this one didnt hit the mark. The worst the review could say was A screen into the kids room would be a must, and the trim around the basin.
My view is that the van as reviewed is Unfit for Purpose and the reviewer should say so.
The weights just dont add up.
TARE = 2280Kg
ATM = 2680
Therefore Personal Load Capacity = 400Kg. Yep, pretty well standard for the industry.
But a closer look at those figures and the features of the van reveals the following:
3 X 95 Lt water tanks = 285Kg water.
Truma HWS = 14 Kg of water. (Pretty small and inadequate for a family of 4)
Toilet = 10 Kg water (estimate) Water filter = 1Kg water.
2 X 9Kg LPG cylinders 18Kg LPG
Total weight added = 328Kg
That leaves a personal load allowance of only 72Kg for 4 people.
This 72Kg must accommodate hoses, leads, bucket, broom, clothes, bedding, towels, food & drink, cooking utensils, cutlery, crockery, pots & pans, and all the other goodies a family must carry.
It cant possibly be done unless they use sleeping bags and eat out.
As I said, Unfit of Purpose.
The next one reviewed was a Bushmaster Redgum The worst the reviewer could say was, The shower door was sticky, but it only requires an adjustment. Some people might find the van to big, but others would describe it as palatial.
But again its let down by the weights.
TARE = 2570
ATM = 2970
Therefore Load Capacity is again 400Kg.
This van features:
2 X 95 Lt water tanks = 190Kg water.
Suburban HWS = 21Kg water.
Toilet = 10Kg water (estimate)
2 x 9kg LPG cylinders = 18Kg LPG
Total weight added = 239Kg. This is pretty much in line with most vans on the market today.
Personal Load allowance is therefore 161Kg.
Although this van is a 2 berth model its load allowance is still inadequate, but not as bad the 4 berth Crusader with 3 water tanks.
I can find no reference to Bushmaster being members of the RVMAA or CTIAV, but Crusader are members of both associations. While Bushmaster are not association members their website reveals that they have been manufacturing vans since 1987 I fully understand that these associations have little or no power to influence any manufacturer to apply realistic personal load allowances; one would think that they would be vigorously lobbying the authorities to regulate to fix the widespread problem of vans not having adequate personal load allowances.
A very large percentage of vans on the road are unknown to their owners illegally and maybe dangerously overweight
A quick walk around dealers yard, caravan show or perusing RV magazines highlights the fact that this problem is not isolated to the two manufactures mentioned above, but is evident throughout the industry. I apologise to both Crusader and Bushmaster for just naming their vans, but unfortunately they were the two Australian manufactured vans featured in the magazine and thus used as an example for an industry wide problem.
I do understand that most manufacturers (Those above included) will increase the ATM on request, but I am reporting on the weights of the vans as reviewed and as would be sold to unsuspecting unknowing buyers.
Other articles in the magazine were vehicle towing reviews. While I cant comment on the vehicles reviewed I can point out that extended towing mirrors were not evident in any of the photos. This is best highlighted by the photo of a vehicle towing a van down a hill on page 72.
Cheers, Ozjohn
E&OE
HI ..
I couldn't agree more.
I have long wondered at the rediculous personal items weight allowance on most vans that I have encountered.
They provide luxury vans with loads of cupboard space, water tanks, HWS, top tank toilets but with little realistic allowance for things like clothes, groceries crockery, cutlery & things to plug into all those power points. Not to mention the aftermarket solar systems, in house batteries & regulators that are so popular these days.
Of course the fishermen then sometimes put the outboard motor on the A frame collapsable trailer & maybe a bike on the rear. An aftermarket washing machine & one of those beaut rubber floor mats compleats the picture.
I recon that there are lots of severly overloaded vans out there.
(I have just finished a clean out of my van in readiness for a touring trip & was amazed at the accumulated stuff that I could discard. Things like - 5 fishing rods, 6 reels, large tackle box with several years stock of sinkers & stuff, 3 fishing knives, 10 coffee mugs, 3 salad bowls including a lead crystal one. A heavy stretcher with all its bedding, 4 chairs, plus the two steamer chairs that go in the tug, 5 tarpaulins & associated poles. A great pile of tent pegs too ... I could go on & on.)
-- Edited by Cupie on Thursday 11th of August 2011 08:14:09 PM
Well
It depends very much on the individual & what sort of trip you are on.
eg .. If going on a week or so at the beach, if off for a couple of months touring, if living in the van full time & moving round regularly .. etc etc.
Some examples of common items off the top of the head -
Airport luggage limits are around 23kg per suitcase. Easy to go over weight in a case full. I think that for touring a couple would have at least 3 suitcase equivalents of clothes. More like 4.
Plus the equivalent of a 7Kg carry on each for toiletries at least.
(that's 83kg for starters)
Then there's bedding, towels, washers, teatowels et al ..
(another 10Kg maybe)
Don't forget the groceries .. What does your weekly shopping weigh?
(40kg?)
What about the crockery, cutlery, pots & pans lus your favourite BBQ
(20kg?)
Of course a couple of wine casks is 8kg.
For the things like water & Gas
One water tank full of say 70L is 70 Kg (lots have two 90L ones)
The 20L hot water system is another 20L
Two 9kg gas bottles.
Annex sides .. have you tried to lift them all at once .. must be at least 30Kg all up including poles.
Of course that is just the major items that come quickly to mind. I have a couple of check lists that run to a couple of pages. Haven't bothered to weigh or estimate them. All the little things that we carry quickly add up.
In summary it is best to load up as you normall would & then use a public weigh bridge before & after.
Back in another life for two people my recommendation to clients was a bare minimum of 300Kg plus water and gas, and another 30Kg minimum for each extra berth.
Cheers, Ozjohn
-- Edited by ozjohn on Friday 12th of August 2011 03:36:05 PM
Ozjohn, I beleive too many people these days think that if they have a reversing camera on the van that it servers the same purpose as reveiw mirrors.
This is a crazy , it may be good to see directly behind you but I would think that nothing could be seen in adjacent lanes, especialy when traffic is comming up along side,even with standard mirrors on the car there is a blind spot.
In addition, I stand corrected on the recent topic of the van that was made in China, I had seen them around here before & yes, they were at the show here last weekend.I was informed that they were built here, then moved to China, & are now back here in Newcastle. Thanks.
Throw in an extra spare wheel, bottle jack and jack blocks to get that extra height, basic tool kit, on van stone protector , hoses , spare annex poles ropes pegs . That leaves enough room for a pair of shorts and a blue singlet and pair of thongs , which is all you need in the north
Wondering what your thoughts on this article, authored by supposedly experienced & respected caravaners.
My thoughts are that even if a van of 2600kg were chosen, its weight would remain relatively static, whereas the car's max weight would be 2500kg, & would only decrease from that as fuel levels dropped. I would have preferred a van of 2000-2200kg max. I would be looking at the weight of the car AS WELL as it's towing capacity.
I would presume this couple would be sponsored to a degree during this extended trip with their van & car, but as you say, a little balance would be beneficial to us traveling novices planning trips.
Chris & Terry,
Thank you for your kind words.
I'm no expert on towing matters, but from personal experience and information from fellow vanner who's input I respect, I have formed the view that with the same weight ditribution a rig is inherently safer if the tow vehicle is heavier than the trailer (Van).
However, a lighter tow vehicle can also be quite stable providing the that difference in weight is not extreme, maybe 10% - 12%
With this difference in weight the load distribution of trailer would have greater importance and a WDH would I feel be absolutely necassary to maintain an evenly distributed weight in the vehicle tyres for maximum stability.
Unfortunately vans are becomming longer and heavier and thus more unstable, especially as the speed increases.
Cheers, Ozjohn.
PS> I won't waste my money on the magazines, only read them if I get them for nothing.
-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 15th of August 2011 04:14:08 PM
-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 15th of August 2011 04:15:54 PM
-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 15th of August 2011 04:17:10 PM
I carry most of the heaviest items such as the annexe walls etc in the tug. Generally I travel relatively light, but I do have 2 spares on the back bumper of the van, with a split system aircon. Hopefully balanced by what is under the bed in front, and the tug.
Everything is very stable and steady on the road, and the tyres are wearing evenly, which is my best way of judging it all.
I've never put it over the weighbridge, but I estimate they both weigh about 2.5 tonnes on the road.