Can anyone tell us what the difference is between a smart charger and a inverter we have a smart charger in the van  does this power the lights when not connected to power.  Thanks

A smart charger has at least 3 charging cycles to maintain optimin battery life, they can be left to a battery full time. An inverter changes the power output normally from 12 volt dc to 240 volt ac and is often used in vans to power small 240 volt apliances like camera chargers, laptops etc from a 12 volt battery cheers blaze

tabby wrote:

---

Can anyone tell us what the difference is between a smart charger and a inverter we have a smart charger in the van  does this power the lights when not connected to power.  Thanks

---

Assuming your lights are 12 volt ones, the normal arrangement these days, the battery will power the lights and the charger does nothing when not plugged into mains power.

When plugged into the power the charger will now both recharge the battery and power the lights.

An Inverter is a quite different device as explained by "blaze" above.

 

Inverters in modern RV's usually operate the opposite to what's been explained above.
The onboard Inverter converts 240V AC to 12V DC to operate lights, range hood etc.
while the Fridge, Microwave and GPO's continue to operate on 240V AC.
Some models also incorporate a Smart Charger for any onboard batteries and/or Brakeaway battery.
Cheers, ozjohn.

Hey Guys N Gals, Ozjohn you have just totally confused me... In my laymans understanding is that a device that converts 240vAC to 12vDC is commonly known as a transformer.....and a device used to convert 12vdc to 240vac is commonly known as an inverter.... My concern here is that if you go into Jaycar/Solex etc etc... or somehwere like that and ask for an inverter you will get the later of the two which may be not what you are needing, and could end up with some very costly repair bills. I'm not trying to be a smart alec here so please enlighten me, and possible many more of us if the transformer belief is incorrect. Hoo Roo Happy Days Grumps

My understanding in laymans terms, or dumb female terms, is I have to get an inverter to use in my van as I am getting a deep cycle battery for use with all power supplied items. I need the inverter to operate these items whether it's the laptop, mobile phone charger or microwave for instance. The smart charger would be something I would charge that battery with when it got low (other than clicking it over to the car battery when travelling which will charge it for me) and I was near a power point to plug the smart charger in. It doesn't work by itself does it? A just as simple answer please.

Thanks guys and girls what would we do without you all you cracked it again. ( Cheers)

Hey HW,

As for the dumb female there aint such a thing if you've got the smarts to ask the question in the 1st place... but, Yeah I agree with your philosophy, the inverter supplies 240v for all the AC powered items in the van (Microwave, TV, DVD etc...) and the smart charger will provide battery charging for the deep cycle and as previously mentioned the low voltage or dc powered items, and yes it needs to be plugged into a 240vac supply, unles you have one of those you beaut ctek 12/240v ones that has supply sensing and auto switching (on the wish list here)....



Hoo Roo Happy Days
grumps

-- Edited by GrumpyOne on Saturday 12th of February 2011 07:52:51 PM

ozjohn wrote:

---

Inverters in modern RV's usually operate the opposite to what's been explained above.
The onboard Inverter converts 240V AC to 12V DC to operate lights, range hood etc.
while the Fridge, Microwave and GPO's continue to operate on 240V AC.
Some models also incorporate a Smart Charger for any onboard batteries and/or Brakeaway battery.
Cheers, ozjohn.

---

Not so, No, Wrong!  Inverters convert 12v to 240v....DC to AC   End of Story!  Inverters do not convert AC to DC.  Rectifiers do that!

I'm aware of some units that consist of a smart charger and an inverter in the same box.

Jim (retired electronics technician and former technical manager)

-- Edited by jimricho on Saturday 12th of February 2011 09:11:12 PM

Happywanderer wrote:

---

My understanding in laymans terms, or dumb female terms, is I have to get an inverter to use in my van as I am getting a deep cycle battery for use with all power supplied items. I need the inverter to operate these items whether it's the laptop, mobile phone charger or microwave for instance.

The smart charger would be something I would charge that battery with when it got low (other than clicking it over to the car battery when travelling which will charge it for me) and I was near a power point to plug the smart charger in. It doesn't work by itself does it?

A just as simple answer please.

---

My suggestion is to avoid using an inverter where there is an alternative. Use a 12v charger for your mobile, these are readily available and offer the advantage of being able to be charged off the car's cigarette lighter while you are driving (not the only reason).

I would suggest buying a DC power supply for your laptop. These are available from Jaycar and many other suppliers.  If you insist on using an inverter to charge your laptop make sure you use a Pure Sine Wave inverter. These are more expensive than the "el cheapo" Modified Sine Wave type.  A MSW inverter may work ok with a laptop but it may not too and it could cause damage and void any warranty.  It's not worth the risk.

Also be aware that microwaves draw a lot of current, require a large inverter, extra (and costly) battery capacity and will rapidly discharge a battery.  Buy a Cobb or something like it for when you're not on power and save the microwave for when you're plugged into "ground" power.  IMHO the sort of battery/inverter/charger capacity you need for this is ok for a large motorhome but "overkill" for campervan like yours or camper trailer such as mine.

By the way it's fine to leave a smart charger "in circuit" so that it recharges the battery whenever you "plug in" without having to switch or connect up anything each time. There's more on this on another current (no pun intended) topic on this forum.

 

Jim, the microwave was just an example, I don't think I will take it with me, have a little gas cooker which will do the job. NOW!!! I know I can charge phone in the cig lighter, have bought a charger to do that. The other things will be laptop, TV, maybe a radio. Those sorts of things. Maybe lights in the van or out under the canopy. Laptop: Whats a DC power supply? What does it plug into if you are out in the country with no power. TV, Radio: what do you plug them into if you don't have an inverter. My s.in.l is an electrician and he is going to set it all up for me, OH!!! and for a fridge as well. Which is probably the most important.

The following link will explain the difference between AC and DC.

http://cableorganizer.com/articles/ac-power.htm

Have both a House and Car-charger for the 'phone.

I have a Kerio 12V Adaptor to use with the Lap-top.

http://search.dicksmith.com.au/electronics/Laptop%20Power%20Supply

  I don't use an inverter.  I've been led to believe that if I only want to run 12V appliances, I can do that straight from the 12V Battery.

Seems to work fine so far, although I haven't tried the 12V TV yet.   Fan, Fridge, and DVD Player work fine .

Cheers,
Sheba.









-- Edited by Sheba on Sunday 13th of February 2011 12:52:14 AM

Grumps.
Yes, it is confusing. It took me awhile to catch on when I first came into the RV industry.
Different people call them different things.
Back in my marine engineering days a Transformer lowered AC voltage. e.g. 240V AC to 110V AC.
An Inverter boosted DC voltage to a Higer AC voltage. e'g. 12V DC to 240V AC 
A Convertor Change DC to AC.
And so on.
In the RV industry anything that changes voltage, or form from AC to DC, or visa vera is referred to as an Inverter.
One has to remember that the blokes that build vans are not electical engineers.
Most vans have an onboard "Device" the reduces 240V AC to 12V DC and is referred to an an inverter.
This allows 12V lighting etc to operate when the van is plugged into 240V Mains supply.
I also carry an "Inverter" to convert 12V DC to 240V AC when I need to get some 240V AC power from the car or onboard van battery.
Cheers, ozjohn.

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 13th of February 2011 08:43:44 AM

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 13th of February 2011 08:44:12 AM

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 13th of February 2011 08:47:09 AM

jimricho wrote:

---

 

Happywanderer wrote:

---

My understanding in laymans terms, or dumb female terms, is I have to get an inverter to use in my van as I am getting a deep cycle battery for use with all power supplied items. I need the inverter to operate these items whether it's the laptop, mobile phone charger or microwave for instance.

The smart charger would be something I would charge that battery with when it got low (other than clicking it over to the car battery when travelling which will charge it for me) and I was near a power point to plug the smart charger in. It doesn't work by itself does it?

A just as simple answer please.

---

My suggestion is to avoid using an inverter where there is an alternative. Use a 12v charger for your mobile, these are readily available and offer the advantage of being able to be charged off the car's cigarette lighter while you are driving (not the only reason).

I would suggest buying a DC power supply for your laptop. These are available from Jaycar and many other suppliers.  If you insist on using an inverter to charge your laptop make sure you use a Pure Sine Wave inverter. These are more expensive than the "el cheapo" Modified Sine Wave type.  A MSW inverter may work ok with a laptop but it may not too and it could cause damage and void any warranty.  It's not worth the risk.

Also be aware that microwaves draw a lot of current, require a large inverter, extra (and costly) battery capacity and will rapidly discharge a battery.  Buy a Cobb or something like it for when you're not on power and save the microwave for when you're plugged into "ground" power.  IMHO the sort of battery/inverter/charger capacity you need for this is ok for a large motorhome but "overkill" for campervan like yours or camper trailer such as mine.

By the way it's fine to leave a smart charger "in circuit" so that it recharges the battery whenever you "plug in" without having to switch or connect up anything each time. There's more on this on another current (no pun intended) topic on this forum.

 

---

Thanks for that Jim,

That puts everything into it's correct perspective, nothing worse than the wrong perspective when it comes to electricals as it can get messy when you  least need that to happen aside from the fire danger etc...

I was not aware of the issues with the inverters and laptops, I have been using a 90watt 'el-cheapo' for my laptop for sometime but will now go spend the $100 bucks and get a dc supply for it instead. I already use the dc charger for the phone as it is easier and aside from this it will also charge using the USB on the laptop with minimal depletion of the lapotop battery.

I have a Deep Cycle 180a/h 1000cca battery as my house battery which charges from the main battery via a Redarc isolator solenoid, from this house battery I run a 40l engel as my freezer and a 60l evacool as the fridge as well as a 4ft flouro at night, the charging is suplemented with an 90 watt solar setup and when on 240 I trickle charge through a simple 'el-cheapo' charger (cant afford ctek yet). Also when I am on ground power I run the fridge and freezer on 240 as well...

Again cheers Jim for your simple and informative answer.

Hoo Roo Happy Days
Grumpster

-- Edited by GrumpyOne on Sunday 13th of February 2011 09:11:35 AM

ozjohn wrote:

---

Grumps.
Yes, it is confusing. It took me awhile to catch on when I first came into the RV industry.
Different people call them different things.
Back in my marine engineering days a Transformer lowered AC voltage. e.g. 240V AC to 110V AC.
An Inverter boosted DC voltage to a Higer AC voltage. e'g. 12V DC to 240V AC 
A Convertor Change DC to AC.
And so on.
In the RV industry anything that changes voltage, or form from AC to DC, or visa vera is referred to as an Inverter.
One has to remember that the blokes that build vans are not electical engineers.
Most vans have an onboard "Device" the reduces 240V AC to 12V DC and is referred to an an inverter.
This allows 12V lighting etc to operate when the van is plugged into 240V Mains supply.
I also carry an "Inverter" to convert 12V DC to 240V AC when I need to get some 240V AC power from the car or onboard van battery.
Cheers, ozjohn.

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 13th of February 2011 08:43:44 AM

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 13th of February 2011 08:44:12 AM

-- Edited by ozjohn on Sunday 13th of February 2011 08:47:09 AM

---

Hey OzJohn,

Quite possibly to someone that is trained in the electrical engineering trades this may be the simplistic view but that is the way we need to see things, but I am sorry but I can't help but to disagree about the names.

To a normal person like myself the simplistic idea is an inverter is used where you need AC from DC, if I were to go into batteryworld or jaycar etc.. and ask for a device that gives me AC power from my car battery I would be given an inverter and vice versa if I said I wanted something to provide a DC from AC they would sell me a DC power supply/rectifier.

I am confident in saying that most RV outlets would also refer to these units the same way. I am not being argumentative in any way just simplistic for the sake of our many many members who would be very confused after your initial posting.

Hoo Roo Happy Days
Grumpster

Happywanderer wrote:

---

Jim, the microwave was just an example, I don't think I will take it with me, have a little gas cooker which will do the job.

NOW!!! I know I can charge phone in the cig lighter, have bought a charger to do that. The other things will be laptop, TV, maybe a radio. Those sorts of things. Maybe lights in the van or out under the canopy.

Laptop: Whats a DC power supply? What does it plug into if you are out in the country with no power.

TV, Radio: what do you plug them into if you don't have an inverter.

My s.in.l is an electrician and he is going to set it all up for me, OH!!! and for a fridge as well. Which is probably the most important.

---

A bunch of good questions there Marj.... I'll see if I can shed some light on them in order (there he goes again with his awful puns!)

1. The microwave.... great for when you have power available. No doubt space will be a premium for you so if you will mostly be free camping this will influence your thinking here.

2. The laptop.... these power supplies replace the little box that goes between the laptop and the power plug and plugs into a cigarette lighter socket similar to what your phone charger does.   Check this site http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?CATID=20&SUBCATID=922&keyform=CAT&SUBMIT.x=30&SUBMIT.y=8 Have SiL check your laptop to see which one suits yours, also that it is set correctly before using it.

3. TV... Many smaller TVs can be run directly from 12v via a cig lighter socket.  Again have your SiL check yours.  If yours has a little box in the power cord it is highly likely that this is the case.  If buying a TV check this feature before committing to a purchase. Also recommend one that plays DVDs, you won't need a separate DVD player then.  It will also play music CDs.

Also if you intend to purchase a booster for the TV antenna (good idea) have your SiL check that the power injector for the booster can be powered from 12v as well as from a 240 v "plugpak" (ones designed for caravan/RV use are)  Have him install this for you while he's fitting out the van.  The power injector is a little gizmo that goes in the antenna lead between the set and the antenna and is neccesary to feed power to run the booster.

4. Radio.... use a battery powered trannie.  Cig lighter adapters are available that can be used to save on batteries, if buying one of these have SiL check the one you choose is suitable for your radio.  Alternately have an auto electrician (or your SiL) rewire your existing car radio to your aux or "house" battery so you don't have to have the ignition switch on in the aux position.  It may be cheaper and easier to have him install a second car radio in the back of the van instead.

5. Fridge (2-way or 3-way).... 2-way fridges are "compressor" type fridges that  operate from 12v DC (battery) and 240v AC mains (depending which is available at the time)    3-way fridges can work off gas as well but it is not practical to run these on 12v except when the vehicle is on the move.  If installing a 3-way have your SiL wire the 12v to the main (starting) battery via a relay that only supplies 12v when the ignition switch is on (He'll know what all that means)

I think a "3-way" would be the best and simplest option for your rig as this can be run on gas when "ground" power is not available.  Yes "compressor" type fridges that can be run directly from the house (aux) battery are more efficient and work better but I feel that this would complicate things too much as you would most likely need solar and/or genny to ensure your house battery is always sufficiently charged when stopping anywhere away from ground power for more than a few days.  You may wish to think this through as a 2-way may still not be inappropriate for your circumstances.

6. Fridge (240v "bar" fridge via an inverter)... I do not consider this to be an option as I doubt that they have either the efficiency or rubustness for the job.

7. Buy your SiL a nice bottle of red or whatever his favourite tipple is for all the work I've dobbed him in for!

A bit "long winded" I know but I hope this helps,

Jim

PS: I think I may have gone a little off topic here in order to answer HW's questions so I hope the original smart charger query has "run it's race" if not I apologise.




-- Edited by jimricho on Sunday 13th of February 2011 09:41:15 AM

ozjohn wrote:

---

Grumps.
Yes, it is confusing. It took me awhile to catch on when I first came into the RV industry.
Different people call them different things.
Back in my marine engineering days a Transformer lowered AC voltage. e.g. 240V AC to 110V AC.
An Inverter boosted DC voltage to a Higer AC voltage. e'g. 12V DC to 240V AC 
A Convertor Change DC to AC.
And so on.
In the RV industry anything that changes voltage, or form from AC to DC, or visa vera is referred to as an Inverter.
One has to remember that the blokes that build vans are not electical engineers.
Most vans have an onboard "Device" the reduces 240V AC to 12V DC and is referred to an an inverter.
This allows 12V lighting etc to operate when the van is plugged into 240V Mains supply.
I also carry an "Inverter" to convert 12V DC to 240V AC when I need to get some 240V AC power from the car or onboard van battery.
Cheers, ozjohn.

---

In that case the RV industry is rewriting the text books.  I have not heard anyone inside or outside the industry, who has a working knowledge of electrics refer (incorrectly) to a device that converts AC to DC as an inverter.  Doing so creates confusion in the minds of non-technical people of which this thread is an example.

I accept that occasionally inverter-charger combinations may be referred to simply as an inverter but this topic was posted specifically asking what is the difference between an inverter and a charger.  Sorry John, nothing personal, I've met you and know you're a good guy and mean well,  but I believe your post (unintentionally) only confuses the issue.

Thank you Jim for as very informative post, have read it and re-read it and slowly getting the gist of it all. Will go through each number individually and work it all out. Mobile all ok, have both chargers. Radio all ok, just realised it takes batteries, have always had it plugged into power, it also takes CDs and the old tapes too. Fridge will have to be 2 way as won't be carrying any gas bottles so will look into your suggestions. Laptop, now thats an interesting one, yes my power plug has the black box adapter so will work on getting the right stuff for that. TV was intending to take the 19 inch digital from the bedroom, will need to sort that out. Doesn't have a little black box on the power cord so will discuss that with S.in. L. TV, S.in.L. was talking about setting up the aerial thingee through the system and outside. It will fold down while travelling and I will pull it up when needed. I haven't explained that very well but I'm sure he will be thinking something similiar to your suggestions. He's a beer man so will have to buy him a whole crate when all this has finished. Will keep a copy of this whole thread as very informative to me and I'm sure lots of others on here too.

Have to agree that a 2 way fridge would be the better option than setting up gas in a campervan just for the fridge. In this instance the extra battery capacity that may be needed is the lesser of the "two evils" and 2 ways do a better job than 3 ways.

A large battery similar to the one in "Grumpyone's" set up (see his post above) I think would be fine for your needs.


-- Edited by jimricho on Sunday 13th of February 2011 05:36:40 PM

jimricho.
I been in the industry for quite a few ywears now and when I first statred I referred to the power reduction Devices as transformers.
I was quickly pulled up and told they were Inverters.
Every manufacturer I know (And that's quite a few) calls the power reduction device fitted to an RV as an Inverter.
The reduction device I refer to reduces 240AC to 12DC.
If an RV is connected to 240AC and the 12DC lights etc operate, then the power is going through one of these devices referred to in the industry as an Inverter.
Ask any manufaturer or dealer what they use tocange 240AC to 12V DC.

In a small number of cases the DC power will come from an onboard battery being constantly recharged via a Smart Charger, but that's unusual.
Battery power is usually selected when 240AC is not connected. e.g. Bush Camping.

Cheers, ozjohn.

-- Edited by ozjohn on Monday 14th of February 2011 04:09:17 PM

It's a pity they're doing that John as it's the use of this erroneous terminology that may be causing the confusion. As Grumpyone points out above go to any electronics catalogue or store and you find the terminology correctly applied.

(later edit to add PS)

PS: In my set up I have the charger (Xantrex 10i) permanently connected to the battery so when I'm on ground power the charger both supplies the power to the lights and recharges the battery, when not on ground power the battery alone powers the lights.  No need for any changeover switching.....KISS principle applies.

Like wise my car.... a Ctek charger sits wired across the aux supply to the (car) fridge and works the same way....no need to plug/unplug anything apart from plugging the ctek into the power box at the caravan park or wherever.   And not forgetting to unplug it before driving off!  Would I do that!  Is my face red!

-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 14th of February 2011 07:47:19 AM

jimricho.
I understand where you're coming from and agree the industry needs to get itself up to speed in many areas not just electrical.
A better term for the device they fit would be 'Converter' or even 'Transformer/converter' as this is what it really is.
It transforms and converts the current from 204AC to 12DC.
Maybe I'll start a trend by calling the device a 'Converter' and see if any Manufacturer/dealer jumps on my back.
Cheers, ozjohn.

G'day John, was going to give the topic a break but just to round it off, I strongly suggest we just stick with the conventional terminology rather than reinventing the wheel....... 240AC to low voltage DC...."Power Supply"...unless specifically designed to charge batteries in which case ...."Battery Charger" low voltage DC to 240AC ...."Inverter" 240AC to low voltage AC "Transformer" (or in fact any voltage AC to any voltage AC) Transformers are quite heavy for their size as they consist mostly of copper and iron. Traditionally "Power Supplies" (and chargers too) do have a transformer as one of their components and this accounts for their weight, however newer technology types use some clever electronics (known as "switchmode") to replace the heavy transformer and reduce the cost. Hope this clears the air cheers, Jim

A big smile jimricho, well put , now most chargers are switchmode. can you tell us all about them, please...only kidding.. its a sad world when a joke cannt be sprung. you did well with all this.......

Switchmodes weigh less, cost more, are kinder to batteries....howzat! I've told you all about them! (PS: the "kind" in "kinder " is pronounced as in rhymes with "wind", I'm not leaving this topic without creating more confusion!)

Hi Jim
If I turned my invertor upside down and used a dumb charger along with my solar panel wpould that achieve a desired outcome   
cheers
blaze

I think that would be a case of an inverted invertor! Also you'd need to be careful not to invert the solar panel as all the electricity would run out all over the ground...volts and amps everywhere!

(I think I'll go ohm now)

Hey Guys n Gals, Hi OJ appologies if I came over in the wrong way, I agree with JR and if the industry is using the incorrect terminology it only leads to everyone getting confuzzed........thanks be to bot yourself and JR for your input and enlightening posts......as usual the info that was sought has been found and provided in the usual friendly manner. Hoo Roo Happy Days Grumpster

Does that mean Ozjohn and I have to split the consultancy fee?