As a newbie and just setting up to go on the road for a couple of years I have a lot of questions to try and get things right before venturing out. We have a 2009 sorento (petrol ) tugging a 16ft expanda. The van is wired to accept charge from the tow vehicle so will get the kia wired next week. Van has a 100ah deep cycle battery and I plan to add another 100 amp hour battery as well We are also looking at a solar setup once we know the battery usage on a daily basis. probably only lights and tv (yet to buy) We are looking to do a lot of free camping between staying at caravan parks. I am looking at a monitor that can tell me the charge on the batteries, the amount of input from solar and the amount of output at any given time. With the tv and possibly the laptop running at the same time I would need an inverter. What size would be appropriate? I will probably have a heap of new topics coming up so please bear with and thanks for the advise (in advance) Peter and Rose
jimricho said
08:24 AM Dec 13, 2010
Firstly welcome to the forum,
A few good questions there and I suspect there'll be plenty of good feedback.
I'll comment on just a couple of the issues raised as I believe these are important and you need to get it right. As I have no knowledge of your technical background you'll excuse me if I assume you're not a technical person.
Firstly, the wiring from the vehicle needs to be sufficiently "heavy" enough to carry the charging current from the alternator to the van's battery without too much voltage drop. I would suggest 8mm2 (cross sectional area) or 8 gauge cable. If using a DC-DC charger ordinary 6"mil" cable would be adequate. This will need to be wired via a "voltage sensitive relay" (goes under a number of other names too but does the same job) that gives priority charging to the vehicle's battery, and connects to the van via a separate "Anderson" plug or (better still) via a 12 pin trailer connector instead of the normal 7 pin connector. This wiring will need to be separate to the 12v fridge wiring.
The second issue is the wiring of two batteries. Apart from caravans and RVs and other non-critical situations, you will almost never see batteries wired in parallel to increase the amp-hour or cranking capacity, especially in critical applications such as automatic starting back up generators or communications installations. The normal (read "proper") way to do this is to use large low voltage series connected batteries. eg it is much better to connect two 200 amp hour 6 volt batteries in series than two 100 amp hour 12 volt batteries in parallel to achieve a total capacity of 200 amp hours.
Many caravanners and RVers do have batteries parallel connected and claim this does not present a problem provided the batteries are identical in every respect including age and they are wired with very heavy interconnecting links to ensure the load is distributed evenly (?). Their money, their batteries!
Parallel wiring means the two positive terminals are wired together and likewise the two negative terminals. Series wiring means that the "load" (the stuff the battery's powering) is connected to the positive of one battery and the negative of the other battery and the two batteries are interconnected by connecting the remaining postive of one battery to the remaining negative of the other.
Hope this helps, no doubt there will be more contributions on other questions you raised.
Jim
-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 13th of December 2010 08:26:24 AM
jimricho said
08:33 AM Dec 13, 2010
One further comment on TVs and Laptops. It is best to avoid the need to use an inverter with these. Preferable to have a TV that runs directly from 12 volts (I think most small LCDs do) and get a special power supply for the Laptop that is powered directly from 12v. These are readily available from Jaycar and other computer places and are suitable for most laptops.
Peter_n_Margaret said
12:17 PM Dec 13, 2010
peter and rose wrote:We are also looking at a solar setup .........
I am looking at a monitor that can tell me the charge on the batteries, the amount of input from solar and the amount of output at any given time.
Hi Peter & Rose. For the solar you will need a solar regulator. A good one will tell you everything that you need to know. I suggest that there are 2 that you should consider. 1. A "Dingo" made by Plasmatronics. You would need to add a 240V charger and a DC-DC charger to this for a complete package. 2. A BMS1215 made by RedArc. This one also incorporates a DC to DC charger to properly charge your caravan batteries from the tug plus a 240V charger for when you have power available. Both are quality products and are made in Australia and have excellent local support.
Cheers, Peter
blaze said
11:09 PM Dec 13, 2010
I have one of these, works well and easy to read http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120621482229&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT cheers blaze ps I have simular to what you have./want 12v tv, lights, water pump, invertor if I need it, 2x 100amp/hour batteries with a chinese 80w solar and had no problems yet, currently showing 13.9 volts
-- Edited by blaze on Monday 13th of December 2010 11:12:44 PM
jimricho said
06:36 AM Dec 14, 2010
A further comment on the inverter issue....
Some 240v appliances draw significant wattage and this translates to very high current when connected to a 12v system via an inverter. A big saving on battery/inverter/solar capacity (and the cost thereof) can be made if you're prepared to forgo these items when free camping.
Such items are... microwaves, hair dryers, jugs, electric heaters, toasters, turbo ovens, bread machines, etc. in fact anything that heats. For most of these items there are alternatives that run on gas or other sources of heat (eg a good ol' campfire).
It is also not practical at all to run air conditioners except when 240v "ground" power is available. Likewise "electric-only" hot water systems.
Perhaps you could start out with your existing 100 amp hour battery and without an inverter and upgrade if/when the need arises. You'll have a better idea when you've been on the road for a while. If you later decide to add a further 100 amp hour battery to your existing battery you can do this by installing a changeover switch so that rather than having the batteries paralleled you run them alternately.
-- Edited by jimricho on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:37:33 AM
Two Strays said
10:39 AM Dec 14, 2010
In relation to the type of connection plugs, I would recommend the 7 pin round plug used inconjunction with an Anderson Plug. I have had the 12 pin plugs and find that they are not adequately able to take the current required to provide the power necessary to recharge the batteries and other power requirements in the caravan. The 12 pin sockets connect sizes are to small to take the required wire size i.e. 8mm. Round 7 pin plugs and Anderson Plugs have larger surface areas with each pin, therefore, giving a better contact area and subsequent current flow.
jimricho said
04:58 PM Dec 14, 2010
Thanks for that info Two Strays,
I use a large 7pin round on my rig and I assumed that the larger 5 pins on the 12 pin would be adequate especially as the fridge wiring and the charging circuit could use separate pins. Also the convenience of a single connector. However I take on board your comments as you have "hands on" experience with this connector.
If using Anderson plugs it would be necessary to provide some protection from the "elements" to prevent the little retaining springs from rusting, I've had this happen in the past. There are now rubber "boots" available for this purpose.
As I mostly camp in caravan parks these days I don't have a charging circuit from the tug to the van installed, I just rely on charging from "ground" power. I have bush camped for up to 4 days and found a 55 amp hour battery adequate as I only power the van's lights from the 12v system.
Jim
PS: I purchased an inverter several years ago and the only times I have used it is to power a 240v soldering iron when doing some "running" repairs.
-- Edited by jimricho on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 05:37:13 PM
ozjohn said
03:00 PM Dec 16, 2010
Peter & Rose. Just a reminder that the weight of any extras (Batteries, Solar etc) added after the van left the Jayco factory must be taken off your personal weight allowance for the van. My guess is that the16' Expanda is single axle and that this weight allowance is only around 300Kg. i.e. The difference between the TARE and the ATM. Most people exceed this 300Kg allowance and are thus illegally overweight before adding any extras. If it's a tandem then the allowance would be around 400Kg. In Jayco shower vans the ATM is increased a little to accommodate the weight of the extra water tank. Cheers ozjohn.
As a newbie and just setting up to go on the road for a couple of years I have a lot of questions to try and get things right before venturing out.
We have a 2009 sorento (petrol ) tugging a 16ft expanda.
The van is wired to accept charge from the tow vehicle so will get the kia wired next week.
Van has a 100ah deep cycle battery and I plan to add another 100 amp hour battery as well We are also looking at a solar setup once we know the battery usage on a daily basis. probably only lights and tv (yet to buy)
We are looking to do a lot of free camping between staying at caravan parks.
I am looking at a monitor that can tell me the charge on the batteries, the amount of input from solar and the amount of output at any given time.
With the tv and possibly the laptop running at the same time I would need an inverter. What size would be appropriate?
I will probably have a heap of new topics coming up so please bear with and thanks for the advise (in advance)
Peter and Rose
A few good questions there and I suspect there'll be plenty of good feedback.
I'll comment on just a couple of the issues raised as I believe these are important and you need to get it right. As I have no knowledge of your technical background you'll excuse me if I assume you're not a technical person.
Firstly, the wiring from the vehicle needs to be sufficiently "heavy" enough to carry the charging current from the alternator to the van's battery without too much voltage drop. I would suggest 8mm 2 (cross sectional area) or 8 gauge cable. If using a DC-DC charger ordinary 6"mil" cable would be adequate. This will need to be wired via a "voltage sensitive relay" (goes under a number of other names too but does the same job) that gives priority charging to the vehicle's battery, and connects to the van via a separate "Anderson" plug or (better still) via a 12 pin trailer connector instead of the normal 7 pin connector. This wiring will need to be separate to the 12v fridge wiring.
The second issue is the wiring of two batteries. Apart from caravans and RVs and other non-critical situations, you will almost never see batteries wired in parallel to increase the amp-hour or cranking capacity, especially in critical applications such as automatic starting back up generators or communications installations. The normal (read "proper") way to do this is to use large low voltage series connected batteries. eg it is much better to connect two 200 amp hour 6 volt batteries in series than two 100 amp hour 12 volt batteries in parallel to achieve a total capacity of 200 amp hours.
Many caravanners and RVers do have batteries parallel connected and claim this does not present a problem provided the batteries are identical in every respect including age and they are wired with very heavy interconnecting links to ensure the load is distributed evenly (?). Their money, their batteries!
Parallel wiring means the two positive terminals are wired together and likewise the two negative terminals. Series wiring means that the "load" (the stuff the battery's powering) is connected to the positive of one battery and the negative of the other battery and the two batteries are interconnected by connecting the remaining postive of one battery to the remaining negative of the other.
Hope this helps, no doubt there will be more contributions on other questions you raised.
Jim
-- Edited by jimricho on Monday 13th of December 2010 08:26:24 AM
For the solar you will need a solar regulator.
A good one will tell you everything that you need to know.
I suggest that there are 2 that you should consider.
1. A "Dingo" made by Plasmatronics. You would need to add a 240V charger and a DC-DC charger to this for a complete package.
2. A BMS1215 made by RedArc. This one also incorporates a DC to DC charger to properly charge your caravan batteries from the tug plus a 240V charger for when you have power available.
Both are quality products and are made in Australia and have excellent local support.
Cheers,
Peter
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120621482229&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
cheers
blaze
ps
I have simular to what you have./want
12v tv, lights, water pump, invertor if I need it, 2x 100amp/hour batteries with a chinese 80w solar and had no problems yet, currently showing 13.9 volts
-- Edited by blaze on Monday 13th of December 2010 11:12:44 PM
Some 240v appliances draw significant wattage and this translates to very high current when connected to a 12v system via an inverter. A big saving on battery/inverter/solar capacity (and the cost thereof) can be made if you're prepared to forgo these items when free camping.
Such items are... microwaves, hair dryers, jugs, electric heaters, toasters, turbo ovens, bread machines, etc. in fact anything that heats. For most of these items there are alternatives that run on gas or other sources of heat (eg a good ol' campfire).
It is also not practical at all to run air conditioners except when 240v "ground" power is available. Likewise "electric-only" hot water systems.
Perhaps you could start out with your existing 100 amp hour battery and without an inverter and upgrade if/when the need arises. You'll have a better idea when you've been on the road for a while. If you later decide to add a further 100 amp hour battery to your existing battery you can do this by installing a changeover switch so that rather than having the batteries paralleled you run them alternately.
-- Edited by jimricho on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 06:37:33 AM
I have had the 12 pin plugs and find that they are not adequately able to take the current required to provide the power necessary to recharge the batteries and other power requirements in the caravan. The 12 pin sockets connect sizes are to small to take the required wire size i.e. 8mm.
Round 7 pin plugs and Anderson Plugs have larger surface areas with each pin, therefore, giving a better contact area and subsequent current flow.
I use a large 7pin round on my rig and I assumed that the larger 5 pins on the 12 pin would be adequate especially as the fridge wiring and the charging circuit could use separate pins. Also the convenience of a single connector. However I take on board your comments as you have "hands on" experience with this connector.
If using Anderson plugs it would be necessary to provide some protection from the "elements" to prevent the little retaining springs from rusting, I've had this happen in the past. There are now rubber "boots" available for this purpose.
As I mostly camp in caravan parks these days I don't have a charging circuit from the tug to the van installed, I just rely on charging from "ground" power. I have bush camped for up to 4 days and found a 55 amp hour battery adequate as I only power the van's lights from the 12v system.
Jim
PS: I purchased an inverter several years ago and the only times I have used it is to power a 240v soldering iron when doing some "running" repairs.
-- Edited by jimricho on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 05:37:13 PM
Just a reminder that the weight of any extras (Batteries, Solar etc) added after the van left the Jayco factory must be taken off your personal weight allowance for the van.
My guess is that the16' Expanda is single axle and that this weight allowance is only around 300Kg.
i.e. The difference between the TARE and the ATM.
Most people exceed this 300Kg allowance and are thus illegally overweight before adding any extras.
If it's a tandem then the allowance would be around 400Kg.
In Jayco shower vans the ATM is increased a little to accommodate the weight of the extra water tank.
Cheers ozjohn.