montie wrote: You are confusing Axle Group Rating with GTM.
Axle Group Rating is an engineered rating set by the chassis/suspension manufacturer and one important rating when setting van's ATM.
GTM is a calculation done by the van manufacturer as explained earlier, probably when he's having a beer after work.
VSB defines GTM as the weight transmitted to the ground via the axle group when the van is level excluding any towball weight.
It is a matter of contention whether GTM is a rating....IMO it is not, others may disagree.
You must not have read what I wrote .....
"When determining ATM, the GTM is the limiting factor driven primarily by the axle group rating."
You will probably recall we have had this discussion before and I posted comments from the Technical Officer, Regulatory Division of Transport for NSW.
Who would you believe? The technical specialist for the government body responsible for this specific issue or a van salesman?
Whether GTM is a rating or not is not the issue. If you don't know the GTM you can't possibly know the ATM.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 13th of February 2024 09:31:17 PM
Oh dear!
The ATM is determined and stamped on the compliance plate by the van manufacturer.
From there he calculates the GTM after he weighs the ball weight.
The Axle Group Rating is determined by the suspension/chassis manufacturer before the van is built and is not always stamped on the compliance plate for that reason. It can be stamped on a separate plate attached to the chassis drawbar.
GTM cannot be calculated unless you know the ATM rating.
Both ATM and AGR are regulated engineered ratings.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 13th of February 2024 11:24:57 PM
watsea said
01:32 AM Feb 14, 2024
Greg 1 wrote:
Placing a load cell under the towball in a hitched condition will prove nothing as you will also be getting a read on part car weight. TBW does not change because like the loaded weight of the van, is measured with the van off the car. That load or force that the van is exerting on the towball doesn't change with the fitting of a WDH. All the WDH does is change how the whole car and van weight is supported by shifting some of that weight from one axle to the others. It is a fairly simple concept and I cannot understand why this is constantly rehashed and why it fills up 7 pages of mostly BS. We have those that dislike WDH's, and don't have to use them, and those like myself who like them and wouldn't leave home without one, so how about we finish this pointless discussion right here because it is getting very silly.
When the chains of a bar WDH are tensioned, there is downward force applied to the coupling point, more than just the loaded weight of the caravan. However, simultaneously on the hitch and very near to the coupling point, an upward force from the bar tension is acting to counteract that extra downward force. Yes, extra forces and torsions involved which the towball, hitch, towbar system and vehicle will endure, if a WDH is used.
My calculations of the 19th January 2024 demonstrated this. On 5th February, Are We Lost did a better job than me, in showing those workings in a better more readable size.
I know the downward force on the coupling is higher than just the weight of the van though a practical situation. Someone I know left the trailer hitch safety latch/clip not properly locked at the towball. However, WDH bars were fitted and tensioned and the towball coupling did not leave the towball during a journey of a couple hundred kilometres.
Possum3 said
07:35 AM Feb 14, 2024
I know the downward force on the coupling is higher than just the weight of the van though a practical situation. Someone I know left the trailer hitch safety latch/clip not properly locked at the towball. However, WDH bars were fitted and tensioned and the towball coupling did not leave the towball during a journey of a couple hundred kilometres.
Unfortunately you example doesn't prove anything.
I have on two occasions (when I had ball couplings) forgotten to release the latch/clip, I was not using WDH. The caravan remained on the ball, it didn't bounce off - the weight of van on towball alone (approx. 350kg) kept the van attached.
This is one reason to use DO35 couplings, they are a positive lock.
Brenda and Alan said
08:15 AM Feb 14, 2024
BarneyBDB wrote:
We are not saying Newton is wrong, what I would say is that your extremely simplistic interpretation of his laws is wrong.
My engineering background includes many years of measuring and calculating the weight and balance of aircraft, the forces and principles are the same.
-- Edited by BarneyBDB on Tuesday 13th of February 2024 06:46:02 PM
You may not be saying Newton is wrong. but both Montie and Yobarr claim the the actual weight of the car decreases and that of the van increases.
This is just nonsense, My simplistic interpretation of Newtons law of gravitation for a mass on the surface of the earth is extremely simple. Weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity. (F=ma). Can it be any simpler.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 08:17:16 AM
Brenda and Alan said
08:51 AM Feb 14, 2024
PeterD wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
The Companys Quality Management System has been certified in 1994 to ISO 9001 and proceeded to become QS9000 accredited in 1999. Their testing facility has been certified as a NATA accredited laboratory to AS ISO/IEC 17025 (1995). The Companys Environmental Management System has been certified to ISO 14001 (2001).
And all this proves they have how many engineers on their payroll? Consider that most manufactures run a chassis design for about 10 years. When a towbar is designed for that chassis it is good for 10 years. How much work would there be for a full time engineer with new design each year. that is why I suggested they would use consulting engineers.
Two things Alan, firstly, HR do not build chassis. I don't know what you are blathering on about.
Secondly, any company that is granted certification in all those areas would not get them unless they have design engineers on staff. HR is no backyard mob, they are part of Cequent which is a large multinational organisation. Cequent have two subsidiaries in Oz, both with engineering sections with engineers on staff. I suggest you go to the next caravan show in your capital city and talk to the HR blokes on their stand. If you can get their business cards, you will see the engineering qualifications listen on them. Why do you have to be so bloody minded when there are people on this forum who actually in contact organisations like HR?
Never said HR build chassis.
The Haymen Reece claim that towball weight does not change is wrong.
For bloody mindedness try Yobarr who has never ever offered any proof of his claim, nor has he been able to refute mine.
What don't you under stand about the correlation of weight and mass on the earths surface.
Go back to the HR chart of a car and van on a set of scales, assume Newton is correct (because he has been proven to be) and the weight that the car exerts on the scales is fixed and do some simple subtraction to see that the towball weight does indeed decrease.
Alan
montie said
09:20 AM Feb 14, 2024
Brenda and Alan wrote:
PeterD wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
The Companys Quality Management System has been certified in 1994 to ISO 9001 and proceeded to become QS9000 accredited in 1999. Their testing facility has been certified as a NATA accredited laboratory to AS ISO/IEC 17025 (1995). The Companys Environmental Management System has been certified to ISO 14001 (2001).
And all this proves they have how many engineers on their payroll? Consider that most manufactures run a chassis design for about 10 years. When a towbar is designed for that chassis it is good for 10 years. How much work would there be for a full time engineer with new design each year. that is why I suggested they would use consulting engineers.
Two things Alan, firstly, HR do not build chassis. I don't know what you are blathering on about.
Secondly, any company that is granted certification in all those areas would not get them unless they have design engineers on staff. HR is no backyard mob, they are part of Cequent which is a large multinational organisation. Cequent have two subsidiaries in Oz, both with engineering sections with engineers on staff. I suggest you go to the next caravan show in your capital city and talk to the HR blokes on their stand. If you can get their business cards, you will see the engineering qualifications listen on them. Why do you have to be so bloody minded when there are people on this forum who actually in contact organisations like HR?
Never said HR build chassis.
The Haymen Reece claim that towball weight does not change is wrong.
For bloody mindedness try Yobarr who has never ever offered any proof of his claim, nor has he been able to refute mine.
What don't you under stand about the correlation of weight and mass on the earths surface.
Go back to the HR chart of a car and van on a set of scales, assume Newton is correct (because he has been proven to be) and the weight that the car exerts on the scales is fixed and do some simple subtraction to see that the towball weight does indeed decrease.
Alan
Please do not misquote me.
I simply said that fitting a WDH does not change ball download as stated by Hayman Reece the manufacturers of the hitch.
I then went on to quote HR on how a WDH distributes weight.
I have no reason to doubt them or their statement on Weight Distribution Hitches.
Finally Alan, if you believe HR are wrong as I already suggested you should take it up with them. Take Newton with you and sit down with their engineers and explain to them the error of their ways.
Your argument has run out of steam here.
watsea said
10:04 AM Feb 14, 2024
Possum3 wrote:
Unfortunately you example doesn't prove anything.
I have on two occasions (when I had ball couplings) forgotten to release the latch/clip, I was not using WDH. The caravan remained on the ball, it didn't bounce off - the weight of van on towball alone (approx. 350kg) kept the van attached.
This is one reason to use DO35 couplings, they are a positive lock.
I guess that non detachment of the coupling did not prove anything. That is OK.
But I think the calculation say something.
yobarr said
11:00 AM Feb 14, 2024
montie wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
PeterD wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
montie wrote:
The Companys Quality Management System has been certified in 1994 to ISO 9001 and proceeded to become QS9000 accredited in 1999. Their testing facility has been certified as a NATA accredited laboratory to AS ISO/IEC 17025 (1995). The Companys Environmental Management System has been certified to ISO 14001 (2001).
And all this proves they have how many engineers on their payroll? Consider that most manufactures run a chassis design for about 10 years. When a towbar is designed for that chassis it is good for 10 years. How much work would there be for a full time engineer with new design each year. that is why I suggested they would use consulting engineers.
Two things Alan, firstly, HR do not build chassis. I don't know what you are blathering on about.
Secondly, any company that is granted certification in all those areas would not get them unless they have design engineers on staff. HR is no backyard mob, they are part of Cequent which is a large multinational organisation. Cequent have two subsidiaries in Oz, both with engineering sections with engineers on staff. I suggest you go to the next caravan show in your capital city and talk to the HR blokes on their stand. If you can get their business cards, you will see the engineering qualifications listen on them. Why do you have to be so bloody minded when there are people on this forum who actually in contact organisations like HR?
Never said HR build chassis.
The Haymen Reece claim that towball weight does not change is wrong.
For bloody mindedness try Yobarr who has never ever offered any proof of his claim, nor has he been able to refute mine.
What don't you under stand about the correlation of weight and mass on the earths surface.
Go back to the HR chart of a car and van on a set of scales, assume Newton is correct (because he has been proven to be) and the weight that the car exerts on the scales is fixed and do some simple subtraction to see that the towball weight does indeed decrease.
Alan
Please do not misquote me.
I simply said that fitting a WDH does not change ball download as stated by Hayman Reece the manufacturers of the hitch.
I then went on to quote HR on how a WDH distributes weight.
I have no reason to doubt them or their statement on Weight Distribution Hitches.
Finally Alan, if you believe HR are wrong as I already suggested you should take it up with them. Take Newton with you and sit down with their engineers and explain to them the error of their ways.
Your argument has run out of steam here.
Once again Montie, a post full of inconvenient truths. Many times I have suggested that Alan, and other misguided individuals should, instead of bleating on here, take up the issue with HR, explaining to them the error of their ways.
Won't happen though as it seems to be more fun rocking the boat and causing total confusion among those who simply WANT to learn about their weights etc.
C'est la vie.
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 11:06:32 AM
BasilB said
03:08 PM Feb 14, 2024
again they bleated "hayman reese", because they had no answers.
cheers
Bobdown said
04:39 PM Feb 14, 2024
Possum3 wrote:
I know the downward force on the coupling is higher than just the weight of the van though a practical situation. Someone I know left the trailer hitch safety latch/clip not properly locked at the towball. However, WDH bars were fitted and tensioned and the towball coupling did not leave the towball during a journey of a couple hundred kilometres.
Unfortunately you example doesn't prove anything.
I have on two occasions (when I had ball couplings) forgotten to release the latch/clip, I was not using WDH. The caravan remained on the ball, it didn't bounce off - the weight of van on towball alone (approx. 350kg) kept the van attached.
This is one reason to use DO35 couplings, they are a positive lock.
Hey Possum,
My poor old mate Jack (passed last year) came down for a visit a couple of years ago, just to use the van that hadn't moved for a while.
Unfortunately, he connected up the DO35 hitch, but forgot to push the locking pin in, some 400k later, fortunately it was still sitting on his Prado tow pin.
He had lost all memories of the van through lack of use, said he couldn't get hot water after turning on the gas bottle, but forgot about the switch in the cupboard.
His missus was not impressed and sold the van shortly after that trip.
dogbox said
05:27 PM Feb 14, 2024
BasilB wrote:
again they bleated "hayman reese", because they had no answers.
cheers
not following the line of thought, maybe a please explain
Are We Lost said
06:55 PM Feb 14, 2024
I interpreted Basil's comment to be along the lines of ...
"They can only follow what Hayman Reese said, like sheep, with no intelligent thought of their own."
In comparison others have provided measurements, reasoning and calculations. These seem to be too difficult for some to understand, with comments from Montie like "gobbledegook". When you know you can't compete with logical thinking, then the next course of action is to belittle those who post intelligent justification.
BarneyBDB said
07:03 PM Feb 14, 2024
Brenda and Alan wrote:
You may not be saying Newton is wrong. but both Montie and Yobarr claim the the actual weight of the car decreases and that of the van increases.
This is just nonsense, My simplistic interpretation of Newtons law of gravitation for a mass on the surface of the earth is extremely simple. Weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity. (F=ma). Can it be any simpler.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 08:17:16 AM
What you say is true, but only if you ignore any other forces acting on the mass. Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same.
yobarr said
07:56 PM Feb 14, 2024
BarneyBDB wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
You may not be saying Newton is wrong. but both Montie and Yobarr claim the the actual weight of the car decreases and that of the van increases.
This is just nonsense, My simplistic interpretation of Newtons law of gravitation for a mass on the surface of the earth is extremely simple. Weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity. (F=ma). Can it be any simpler.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 08:17:16 AM
What you say is true, but only if you ignore any other forces acting on the mass. Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same.
Great idea Barney, but you can rest assured that your advice will be ignored.
No matter how simply things are explained always there is at least one person who does not, can not or will not understand..
The whole process has been explained numerous times, and Stephen's detailed diagram shows exactly how it all works, but if a person diesn't WANT to learn, it all is pointless.
For some people ignorance is their biggest asset. Cheers
Are We Lost said
08:57 PM Feb 14, 2024
yobarr wrote:The whole process has been explained numerous times, and Stephen's detailed diagram shows exactly how it all works, but if a person diesn't WANT to learn, it all is pointless.
Thanks for the positive comment Yobarr, but I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that diagram.
The discussion has devolved yet again to the pointless argument about the inner workings of the system and semantics on terms, but nobody is contradicting what weights are transferred.
For example (not your post): "Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same."
And how does that relate to the discussion? What point? Can you provide some calculations?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 09:01:11 PM
montie said
09:32 PM Feb 14, 2024
Are We Lost wrote:
I interpreted Basil's comment to be along the lines of ...
"They can only follow what Hayman Reese said, like sheep, with no intelligent thought of their own."
In comparison others have provided measurements, reasoning and calculations. These seem to be too difficult for some to understand, with comments from Montie like "gobbledegook". When you know you can't compete with logical thinking, then the next course of action is to belittle those who post intelligent justification.
If a tug manufacturer tells me the tow capacity rating I don't question it I abide by it..it's the law.
If a van manufacturer sets an ATM rating I don't ask for proof..it's a legal rating.
If a tug manufacturer sets a GVM rating I have more to do than spend endless hours trying to prove him wrong..it's a legal rating.
If Hayman Reece provide information on their equipment I inform my prospective customers accordingly.
Too many self appointed experts on here spruiking gobbledegook and b/s are more interested in winning the pxxsing contest than providing useful information to members. You guys need to get out a bit more.!
montie said
09:35 PM Feb 14, 2024
dogbox wrote:
BasilB wrote:
again they bleated "hayman reese", because they had no answers.
cheers
not following the line of thought, maybe a please explain
I think he just copies and pastes!
BarneyBDB said
09:52 PM Feb 14, 2024
Are We Lost wrote:
The discussion has devolved yet again to the pointless argument about the inner workings of the system and semantics on terms, but nobody is contradicting what weights are transferred.
Have you not noticed the numerous posts stating that weight cannot be transferred, changed or moved because weight must always equal mass?
yobarr said
09:55 PM Feb 14, 2024
montie wrote:
dogbox wrote:
BasilB wrote:
again they bleated "hayman reese", because they had no answers.
cheers
not following the line of thought, maybe a please explain
I think he just copies and pastes!
Been around for just over 5 years, consistently negative, never started a topic, and yet to make a contribution of any significance.
Certainly an interesting person. Cheers
Are We Lost said
10:05 PM Feb 14, 2024
BarneyBDB wrote: Have you not noticed the numerous posts stating that weight cannot be transferred, changed or moved because weight must always equal mass?
Well that was my point ... I believe those making such comments are arguing about ... err, not sure what and if they have any bearing in this context. I have not seen any such comments that dispute the results as in the image I posted (twice). Perhaps those making their arguments think their meaning in relation to this subject is clear, but I do not see that clarity. Weight of the van on the moon would be less .... My question to them is .... So?
If they put something in context with actual weights it may be clearer.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 10:06:45 PM
Gundog said
09:35 AM Feb 15, 2024
Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"
Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.
yobarr said
09:40 AM Feb 15, 2024
Gundog wrote:
Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"
Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.
Clutching at straws now Graham?
Stupid little 6000kg GCM utes can NEVER safely Tow heavy 3500kg vans, no matter how many "gimmicks" they employ. Cheers
Brenda and Alan said
09:45 AM Feb 15, 2024
montie wrote:
Please do not misquote me.
I simply said that fitting a WDH does not change ball download as stated by Hayman Reece the manufacturers of the hitch.
I then went on to quote HR on how a WDH distributes weight.
I am not mis quoting you. Your belief that HR is correct leads to the conclusion that the car gets lighter and the van heavier. Both of these occurrences are impossible.
You went on not to explain HOW a WDH distributes weight only where it is distributed.
The only posters on this discussion who have explained HOW a WDH works are Ron and watsea. I suggest you go back to them and absorb some correct information.
Alan
Brenda and Alan said
10:05 AM Feb 15, 2024
BarneyBDB wrote:
What you say is true, but only if you ignore any other forces acting on the mass. Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same.
I don't wear blinkers and I know full well what mass and weight are. A mass under the influence of gravity exerts a force downwards according to the formulae F-ma.
A mass of say 1000kg exerts a force of 98067 newtons or if you like 1000Kgwt.
It follows from this that a car of mass 3000kg sitting on a weigh bridge exerts a downward force on that bridge of 3000 kgwt ALWAYS. The other force acting on the system comes from the weight imposed form the caravan towbar.
Does this clear things up for you.
Alan
Are We Lost said
10:29 AM Feb 15, 2024
Brenda and Alan wrote:
BarneyBDB wrote:
What you say is true, but only if you ignore any other forces acting on the mass. Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same.
I don't wear blinkers and I know full well what mass and weight are. A mass under the influence of gravity exerts a force downwards according to the formulae F-ma.
A mass of say 1000kg exerts a force of 98067 newtons or if you like 1000Kgwt.
It follows from this that a car of mass 3000kg sitting on a weigh bridge exerts a downward force on that bridge of 3000 kgwt ALWAYS. The other force acting on the system comes from the weight imposed form the caravan towbar.
Does this clear things up for you.
Alan
What are you two disagreeing about other than mass, newtons and weights? Is the weights diagram I posted a couple of times wrong? Does the towball weight change when WDH tension is applied. Sorry, not clear to me what the relevance is to the discussion.
As for the old chestnut about "towball weight does not change with a WDH", has anyone considered why Hayman Reese would make such a statement? Why would they add wording about the inner workings of a WDH that nobody should care about?
To me, the answer is obvious.
They don't want Joe Caravaner believing that his 400kg towball load could be reduced to a legal 350kg by using a WDH.
While on the subject of "towball weight does not change" have those on each side of the argument noted that one side produces workings, diagrams and justifications. None of those have been refuted. Yet those on the other side of the discussion never produce any detail. Not in this thread, nor in any of the multiple threads where this has been raised.
Gundog said
11:49 AM Feb 15, 2024
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"
Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.
Clutching at straws now Graham?
Stupid little 6000kg GCM utes can NEVER safely Tow heavy 3500kg vans, no matter how many "gimmicks" they employ. Cheers
Another statement of opinion lacking evidence.
BasilB said
12:24 PM Feb 15, 2024
Are We Lost wrote:
Brenda and Alan wrote:
BarneyBDB wrote:
What you say is true, but only if you ignore any other forces acting on the mass. Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same.
I don't wear blinkers and I know full well what mass and weight are. A mass under the influence of gravity exerts a force downwards according to the formulae F-ma.
A mass of say 1000kg exerts a force of 98067 newtons or if you like 1000Kgwt.
It follows from this that a car of mass 3000kg sitting on a weigh bridge exerts a downward force on that bridge of 3000 kgwt ALWAYS. The other force acting on the system comes from the weight imposed form the caravan towbar.
Does this clear things up for you.
Alan
What are you two disagreeing about other than mass, newtons and weights? Is the weights diagram I posted a couple of times wrong? Does the towball weight change when WDH tension is applied. Sorry, not clear to me what the relevance is to the discussion.
As for the old chestnut about "towball weight does not change with a WDH", has anyone considered why Hayman Reese would make such a statement? Why would they add wording about the inner workings of a WDH that nobody should care about?
To me, the answer is obvious.
They don't want Joe Caravaner believing that his 400kg towball load could be reduced to a legal 350kg by using a WDH.
While on the subject of "towball weight does not change" have those on each side of the argument noted that one side produces workings, diagrams and justifications. None of those have been refuted. Yet those on the other side of the discussion never produce any detail. Not in this thread, nor in any of the multiple threads where this has been raised.
but that would leave the bleaters with no credibility.
cheers
yobarr said
03:17 PM Feb 15, 2024
Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"
Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.
Clutching at straws now Graham?
Stupid little 6000kg GCM utes can NEVER safely Tow heavy 3500kg vans, no matter how many "gimmicks" they employ. Cheers
Another statement of opinion lacking evidence.
Surely you jest? The facts have been detailed MANY times so you either have a poor memory, or you simply don't understand.
There has been irrefutable evidence produced to support that statement, and I simply can't be bothered AGAIN posting it as I feel that if you don't understand by now, you never will. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 15th of February 2024 03:23:22 PM
Gundog said
05:31 PM Feb 15, 2024
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"
Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.
Clutching at straws now Graham?
Stupid little 6000kg GCM utes can NEVER safely Tow heavy 3500kg vans, no matter how many "gimmicks" they employ. Cheers
Another statement of opinion lacking evidence.
Surely you jest? The facts have been detailed MANY times so you either have a poor memory, or you simply don't understand.
There has been irrefutable evidence produced to support that statement, and I simply can't be bothered AGAIN posting it as I feel that if you don't understand by now, you never will. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 15th of February 2024 03:23:22 PM
Then why does Toyota Australia contradict that statements, by stating in their towing guide "If the total trailer weight is greater than the vehicle weight, use a sway control device."
Hmmm maybe Toyota knows something you dont.
montie said
05:37 PM Feb 15, 2024
Well, this discussion continues in circles.
I doubt there is much further I can add in the way of useful information to this topic so I will conclude by adding the following comment.
Dealers and manufacturers live in a real world. Under the Consumer Act licensed dealers are legally required to provide accurate information to consumers. If this information is not at hand it is our responsibility to contact the manufacturer or importer of the product to obtain this info.
Towing capacity, tug and van ratings, towbar capacities, payload calculation etc., etc., must legally be conveyed to the buyer or prospective buyer. There is no margin for debate...if a tug or van manufacturer sets a rating we accept that, if an accessory manufacturer sets limits or provides information that's what we convey to the consumer.
If we want to know the weight of something, we weigh it....we don't estimate, calculate, assess or dream up formulae to work it out.
If we want to know the dimensions of something ...we measure it.
Unlike many posters on this thread we do not operate in a world of fantasy that includes Newton, endless formulae, space travel, gobbledegook and bullshxt and copious amounts of misleading or useless information.
We live in the real world of weighing scales, measuring tapes, legal ratings and the Australian Consumer Act.
Oh dear!
The ATM is determined and stamped on the compliance plate by the van manufacturer.
From there he calculates the GTM after he weighs the ball weight.
The Axle Group Rating is determined by the suspension/chassis manufacturer before the van is built and is not always stamped on the compliance plate for that reason. It can be stamped on a separate plate attached to the chassis drawbar.
GTM cannot be calculated unless you know the ATM rating.
Both ATM and AGR are regulated engineered ratings.
-- Edited by montie on Tuesday 13th of February 2024 11:24:57 PM
When the chains of a bar WDH are tensioned, there is downward force applied to the coupling point, more than just the loaded weight of the caravan. However, simultaneously on the hitch and very near to the coupling point, an upward force from the bar tension is acting to counteract that extra downward force. Yes, extra forces and torsions involved which the towball, hitch, towbar system and vehicle will endure, if a WDH is used.
My calculations of the 19th January 2024 demonstrated this. On 5th February, Are We Lost did a better job than me, in showing those workings in a better more readable size.
I know the downward force on the coupling is higher than just the weight of the van though a practical situation. Someone I know left the trailer hitch safety latch/clip not properly locked at the towball. However, WDH bars were fitted and tensioned and the towball coupling did not leave the towball during a journey of a couple hundred kilometres.
Unfortunately you example doesn't prove anything.
I have on two occasions (when I had ball couplings) forgotten to release the latch/clip, I was not using WDH. The caravan remained on the ball, it didn't bounce off - the weight of van on towball alone (approx. 350kg) kept the van attached.
This is one reason to use DO35 couplings, they are a positive lock.
You may not be saying Newton is wrong. but both Montie and Yobarr claim the the actual weight of the car decreases and that of the van increases.
This is just nonsense, My simplistic interpretation of Newtons law of gravitation for a mass on the surface of the earth is extremely simple. Weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity. (F=ma). Can it be any simpler.
Alan
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 08:17:16 AM
Never said HR build chassis.
The Haymen Reece claim that towball weight does not change is wrong.
For bloody mindedness try Yobarr who has never ever offered any proof of his claim, nor has he been able to refute mine.
What don't you under stand about the correlation of weight and mass on the earths surface.
Go back to the HR chart of a car and van on a set of scales, assume Newton is correct (because he has been proven to be) and the weight that the car exerts on the scales is fixed and do some simple subtraction to see that the towball weight does indeed decrease.
Alan
Please do not misquote me.
I simply said that fitting a WDH does not change ball download as stated by Hayman Reece the manufacturers of the hitch.
I then went on to quote HR on how a WDH distributes weight.
I have no reason to doubt them or their statement on Weight Distribution Hitches.
Finally Alan, if you believe HR are wrong as I already suggested you should take it up with them. Take Newton with you and sit down with their engineers and explain to them the error of their ways.
Your argument has run out of steam here.
I guess that non detachment of the coupling did not prove anything. That is OK.
But I think the calculation say something.
Once again Montie, a post full of inconvenient truths.
Many times I have suggested that Alan, and other misguided individuals should, instead of bleating on here, take up the issue with HR, explaining to them the error of their ways.
Won't happen though as it seems to be more fun rocking the boat and causing total confusion among those who simply WANT to learn about their weights etc.
C'est la vie.
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 11:06:32 AM
again they bleated "hayman reese", because they had no answers.
cheers
Hey Possum,
My poor old mate Jack (passed last year) came down for a visit a couple of years ago, just to use the van that hadn't moved for a while.
Unfortunately, he connected up the DO35 hitch, but forgot to push the locking pin in, some 400k later, fortunately it was still sitting on his Prado tow pin.
He had lost all memories of the van through lack of use, said he couldn't get hot water after turning on the gas bottle, but forgot about the switch in the cupboard.
His missus was not impressed and sold the van shortly after that trip.
not following the line of thought, maybe a please explain
"They can only follow what Hayman Reese said, like sheep, with no intelligent thought of their own."
In comparison others have provided measurements, reasoning and calculations. These seem to be too difficult for some to understand, with comments from Montie like "gobbledegook". When you know you can't compete with logical thinking, then the next course of action is to belittle those who post intelligent justification.
What you say is true, but only if you ignore any other forces acting on the mass. Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same.
Great idea Barney, but you can rest assured that your advice will be ignored.
No matter how simply things are explained always there is at least one person who does not, can not or will not understand..
The whole process has been explained numerous times, and Stephen's detailed diagram shows exactly how it all works, but if a person diesn't WANT to learn, it all is pointless.
For some people ignorance is their biggest asset. Cheers
Thanks for the positive comment Yobarr, but I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that diagram.
The discussion has devolved yet again to the pointless argument about the inner workings of the system and semantics on terms, but nobody is contradicting what weights are transferred.
For example (not your post): "Take your blinkers off and look at the bigger picture. There is a reason why weight and mass are spelt differently. They are not (always) the same."
And how does that relate to the discussion? What point? Can you provide some calculations?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 09:01:11 PM
If a tug manufacturer tells me the tow capacity rating I don't question it I abide by it..it's the law.
If a van manufacturer sets an ATM rating I don't ask for proof..it's a legal rating.
If a tug manufacturer sets a GVM rating I have more to do than spend endless hours trying to prove him wrong..it's a legal rating.
If Hayman Reece provide information on their equipment I inform my prospective customers accordingly.
Too many self appointed experts on here spruiking gobbledegook and b/s are more interested in winning the pxxsing contest than providing useful information to members. You guys need to get out a bit more.!
I think he just copies and pastes!
Have you not noticed the numerous posts stating that weight cannot be transferred, changed or moved because weight must always equal mass?
Been around for just over 5 years, consistently negative, never started a topic, and yet to make a contribution of any significance.
Certainly an interesting person. Cheers
Well that was my point ... I believe those making such comments are arguing about ... err, not sure what and if they have any bearing in this context. I have not seen any such comments that dispute the results as in the image I posted (twice). Perhaps those making their arguments think their meaning in relation to this subject is clear, but I do not see that clarity. Weight of the van on the moon would be less .... My question to them is .... So?
If they put something in context with actual weights it may be clearer.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 14th of February 2024 10:06:45 PM
Maybe Yobarr may needs to understand that his negative comments about twin cab utes are misguided because "A bigger tow vehicle will not compensate for a poorly setup Hitch"
Those of us who decide to use a WDH are setting the balance between all the axles with a properly set up hitch.
Clutching at straws now Graham?
Stupid little 6000kg GCM utes can NEVER safely Tow heavy 3500kg vans, no matter how many "gimmicks" they employ. Cheers
I am not mis quoting you. Your belief that HR is correct leads to the conclusion that the car gets lighter and the van heavier. Both of these occurrences are impossible.
You went on not to explain HOW a WDH distributes weight only where it is distributed.
The only posters on this discussion who have explained HOW a WDH works are Ron and watsea. I suggest you go back to them and absorb some correct information.
Alan
I don't wear blinkers and I know full well what mass and weight are. A mass under the influence of gravity exerts a force downwards according to the formulae F-ma.
A mass of say 1000kg exerts a force of 98067 newtons or if you like 1000Kgwt.
It follows from this that a car of mass 3000kg sitting on a weigh bridge exerts a downward force on that bridge of 3000 kgwt ALWAYS. The other force acting on the system comes from the weight imposed form the caravan towbar.
Does this clear things up for you.
Alan
What are you two disagreeing about other than mass, newtons and weights? Is the weights diagram I posted a couple of times wrong? Does the towball weight change when WDH tension is applied. Sorry, not clear to me what the relevance is to the discussion.
As for the old chestnut about "towball weight does not change with a WDH", has anyone considered why Hayman Reese would make such a statement? Why would they add wording about the inner workings of a WDH that nobody should care about?
To me, the answer is obvious.
They don't want Joe Caravaner believing that his 400kg towball load could be reduced to a legal 350kg by using a WDH.
While on the subject of "towball weight does not change" have those on each side of the argument noted that one side produces workings, diagrams and justifications. None of those have been refuted. Yet those on the other side of the discussion never produce any detail. Not in this thread, nor in any of the multiple threads where this has been raised.
Another statement of opinion lacking evidence.
but that would leave the bleaters with no credibility.
cheers
Surely you jest? The facts have been detailed MANY times so you either have a poor memory, or you simply don't understand.
There has been irrefutable evidence produced to support that statement, and I simply can't be bothered AGAIN posting it as I feel that if you don't understand by now, you never will. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 15th of February 2024 03:23:22 PM
Then why does Toyota Australia contradict that statements, by stating in their towing guide "If the total trailer weight is greater than the vehicle weight, use a sway control device."
Hmmm maybe Toyota knows something you dont.
I doubt there is much further I can add in the way of useful information to this topic so I will conclude by adding the following comment.
Dealers and manufacturers live in a real world. Under the Consumer Act licensed dealers are legally required to provide accurate information to consumers. If this information is not at hand it is our responsibility to contact the manufacturer or importer of the product to obtain this info.
Towing capacity, tug and van ratings, towbar capacities, payload calculation etc., etc., must legally be conveyed to the buyer or prospective buyer. There is no margin for debate...if a tug or van manufacturer sets a rating we accept that, if an accessory manufacturer sets limits or provides information that's what we convey to the consumer.
If we want to know the weight of something, we weigh it....we don't estimate, calculate, assess or dream up formulae to work it out.
If we want to know the dimensions of something ...we measure it.
Unlike many posters on this thread we do not operate in a world of fantasy that includes Newton, endless formulae, space travel, gobbledegook and bullshxt and copious amounts of misleading or useless information.
We live in the real world of weighing scales, measuring tapes, legal ratings and the Australian Consumer Act.