Irrefutable evidence has been produced and explanations given but some posters continue to argue, for what reason I'm not sure.
I do not understand what part of "weight is distributed from the tugs rear axle" they are having trouble with especially when the WDH manufacturer has confirmed this in writing.
So I can only conclude that these guys are arguing for the sake of it.
In that instance I think this thread is no longer informative.
Rob Driver said
09:21 AM Mar 3, 2021
Yobarr, Go pack and read my post, I did not say that the GCM increased but more asked the question of you that the GCM remained the same because the extra weight that appears magically on the caravan axle group can only come by the method of lifting the drawbar and thus taking some weight from the drawbar and applying that weight to the vans axle group. Simple physics...if I may be as condescending.
Irrefutable evidence has been produced and explanations given but some posters continue to argue, for what reason I'm not sure.
I do not understand what part of "weight is distributed from the tugs rear axle" they are having trouble with especially when the WDH manufacturer has confirmed this in writing.
So I can only conclude that these guys are arguing for the sake of it.
In that instance I think this thread is no longer informative.
Yes Montie, unfortunately this is the case whereby once again Yobarrs rude and condescending comments to anyone who does not agree with him go on without any action until a member actually challenges his statements and then the topic is locked.
Anyway anyone who goes off and blindly believes everything he states is destined for problems.
He has been banned from other forums for this exact behaviour.
To decrease the weight on the rear axle and to increase the weight on the van axle group without changing the GCM the weight must come off the drawbar or in simple terms the drawbar must be lifted by the WDH which means there is less weight on the towball.
Instead of disagreeing just prove us wrong. The silent majority would be interested.
Regards
Rob
KJB said
09:47 AM Mar 3, 2021
A little bit different perspective on an explanation , but in simple, broad terms -
Instead of 2 Beams (tow vehicle chassis and the caravan chassis ) with a hinge (Tow Ball in the middle, the WDH turns the layout it into 1 almost (adjustable) solid Beam from the front of the tow vehicle chassis to the rear end of the caravan chassis.
This then lets the combined weight (which is not evenly distributed along the beam ) be carried on the 1 Beam .
Final axle weights depend on the axles positioning along the Beam .
Maybe this ( my explanation ..and I am not an Engineer ) could help clarify how a "Weight Distribution Hitch" works .
It basically joins 2 Beams together so that the Total Load can be shared.
montie said
10:05 AM Mar 3, 2021
bentaxlebabe wrote:
montie wrote:
I think this thread has run it's race.
Irrefutable evidence has been produced and explanations given but some posters continue to argue, for what reason I'm not sure.
I do not understand what part of "weight is distributed from the tugs rear axle" they are having trouble with especially when the WDH manufacturer has confirmed this in writing.
So I can only conclude that these guys are arguing for the sake of it.
In that instance I think this thread is no longer informative.
Yes Montie, unfortunately this is the case whereby once again Yobarrs rude and condescending comments to anyone who does not agree with him go on without any action until a member actually challenges his statements and then the topic is locked.
Anyway anyone who goes off and blindly believes everything he states is destined for problems.
He has been banned from other forums for this exact behaviour.
To decrease the weight on the rear axle and to increase the weight on the van axle group without changing the GCM the weight must come off the drawbar or in simple terms the drawbar must be lifted by the WDH which means there is less weight on the towball.
Instead of disagreeing just prove us wrong. The silent majority would be interested.
Regards
Rob
Rob,
Hayman Reece who are the manufacturers of the WDH clearly state that it's use does not change the ball weight.
What more proof do you need?
Now I happen to agree with them. Ball weight is transferred to the tug rear axle when the van is hooked up and the WDH distributes it from there. The weight applied to the tow bar does not change as stated by Hayman Reece.
Clarky 1 said
10:37 AM Mar 3, 2021
Hi Monty, I hope I am not being rude by butting in.
I have taken a bit of interest in this subject so I thought I might phone an agent of HR hitches.
There explanation is by using the hitch the tow ball weight wont change but this weight cannot be weighed without disconnecting the trailer so any prospective user of the WDH dos not automatically assume that it will correct an overweight situation on the Tow ball. That is why they say that the ball weight wont change. I think it is called covering ones backside.
I also asked them why in the speil they didnt tell anyone that the vans axle weight in some circumstances might be increased to exceed the trailers GTM. His answer was be it right or wrong is that most open statements are sales and marketing based and any user should be checking all aspects on a weigh bridge. My thoughts are they dont tell anyone that as it may affect sales, but that is only my thoughts.
If we go back a couple of pages a bloke posted this as the method used by a compliance officer to weigh a van and this then rings true with what the HR rep was saying in dont assume by having a WDH your tow ball weight will be corrected.
So with a WDH the use may and will improve stability in many cases but that is about it. Here is a pic of the compliance officers method of weighing which now becomes self explanatory.
Hi Monty, I hope I am not being rude by butting in.
I have taken a bit of interest in this subject so I thought I might phone an agent of HR hitches.
There explanation is by using the hitch the tow ball weight wont change but this weight cannot be weighed without disconnecting the trailer so any prospective user of the WDH dos not automatically assume that it will correct an overweight situation on the Tow ball. That is why they say that the ball weight wont change. I think it is called covering ones backside.
I also asked them why in the speil they didnt tell anyone that the vans axle weight in some circumstances might be increased to exceed the trailers GTM. His answer was be it right or wrong is that most open statements are sales and marketing based and any user should be checking all aspects on a weigh bridge. My thoughts are they dont tell anyone that as it may affect sales, but that is only my thoughts.
If we go back a couple of pages a bloke posted this as the method used by a compliance officer to weigh a van and this then rings true with what the HR rep was saying in dont assume by having a WDH your tow ball weight will be corrected.
So with a WDH the use may and will improve stability in many cases but that is about it. Here is a pic of the compliance officers method of weighing which now becomes self explanatory.
Stu,
I think you should take all that up with the HR engineers......
Peter's method of weighing is absolutely correct but I fail to see the connection with this topic.
There are two aspects here
Firstly the use of a WDH does not change ball weight.
Secondly ball weight can only be measured when the van is unhooked.
I occasionally converse with Peter on another forum.
Gundog said
01:07 PM Mar 3, 2021
Towball weight is the most discussed subject that has little understanding by many, the bottom line maximum TBW is dictated by the rating plate on the towbar, that weight ceases to exist as soon as it is applied to the towbar, its only when some people get their knickers in a twist about TBW reducing when a WDH is used.
Lets look at a theroticial circumstance the towbar ID plate is rated at 3500kg TBW 350kg, the vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg. The caravan has an ATM of 2800kg, the accepted 10% non rule is the norm, however, if your ATM was 2800 and you choose to have a TBW of 300kg, you connected it to you tow vehicle applied a WDH, if the attitude of the combination was good and all weights were within specs and the combination towed and handled well, would we be having this conversation.
At the end of the day if you weighed and setup you combination correctly then this whole thread becomes nonsence ah but wait there's more, weighing is not a one time thing you should be mindful that weighing should be a regular activity.
Brenda and Alan said
07:47 PM Mar 3, 2021
Yobarr and Montie, Hayman Reece have EXPLAINED nothing on their website. And both of you keep refusing to understand that the tug becomes lighter as the WDH is tensioned in spite of repeated attempts to show that this is so. The figures don't lie. They clearly show that this is so. This clearly means that the download on the tow bar is reduced in spite of what you want to believe. When either or both of you can provide a legitimate set of weighing figures that shows this isn't the case I will examine them. Consistently both of you make claims and neither of you can back them up with any sort of figures or reasoning. Both of you keep trumpeting the tow ball weight doesn't change but have not given any concrete evidence that this true. Maybe you can't.
montie said
08:04 PM Mar 3, 2021
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr and Montie, Hayman Reece have EXPLAINED nothing on their website. And both of you keep refusing to understand that the tug becomes lighter as the WDH is tensioned in spite of repeated attempts to show that this is so. The figures don't lie. They clearly show that this is so. This clearly means that the download on the tow bar is reduced in spite of what you want to believe. When either or both of you can provide a legitimate set of weighing figures that shows this isn't the case I will examine them. Consistently both of you make claims and neither of you can back them up with any sort of figures or reasoning. Both of you keep trumpeting the tow ball weight doesn't change but have not given any concrete evidence that this true. Maybe you can't.
Alan,
Unfortunately I think you are in denial.
It has been explained to you several times backed up by the statement posted on HR's website.
Time to move on mate.
yobarr said
08:31 PM Mar 3, 2021
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr and Montie, Hayman Reece have EXPLAINED nothing on their website. And both of you keep refusing to understand that the tug becomes lighter as the WDH is tensioned in spite of repeated attempts to show that this is so. The figures don't lie. They clearly show that this is so. This clearly means that the download on the tow bar is reduced in spite of what you want to believe. When either or both of you can provide a legitimate set of weighing figures that shows this isn't the case I will examine them. Consistently both of you make claims and neither of you can back them up with any sort of figures or reasoning. Both of you keep trumpeting the tow ball weight doesn't change but have not given any concrete evidence that this true. Maybe you can't.
Alan,you apparently don't actually READ posts,or you would have seen these results that I posted TODAY at 8.09am.Cheers
Yobarr there is no post from you at 9.09 that I can see on my computer and certainly no posts from you with with factual information that negate the figures that I have presented.
If you can do it just present figures to support your claims instead of just nay saying what i post.
Alan
yobarr said
05:04 AM Mar 4, 2021
Brenda and Alan wrote:
Yobarr there is no post from you at 9.09 that I can see on my computer and certainly no posts from you with with factual information that negate the figures that I have presented.
If you can do it just present figures to support your claims instead of just nay saying what i post.
Alan
My mistake....Montie's post was made at 8.09am,in reply to my post,which was made at 7.46am.An observant person would have noticed that both those posts had the same content.Perhaps you also have missed the information provided direct from the Hayman Reece website,so I will again post it,in an effort to help you.If you do not agree,I suggest that you join forces with Rob,approach Hayman Reece directly,and let them know why,after 60 years,they still don't know what they're talking about? This certainly would be preferable to you tainting the factual information supplied by Montie and I, among others, with the real losers being newbies who are trying to learn about weights,and existing members who simply are trying to broaden their knowledge base,and learn how to tow legally,responsibly and safely.Cheers
Irrefutable evidence has been produced and explanations given but some posters continue to argue, for what reason I'm not sure.
I do not understand what part of "weight is distributed from the tugs rear axle" they are having trouble with especially when the WDH manufacturer has confirmed this in writing.
So I can only conclude that these guys are arguing for the sake of it.
In that instance I think this thread is no longer informative.
Yes Montie, unfortunately this is the case whereby once again Yobarrs rude and condescending comments to anyone who does not agree with him go on without any action until a member actually challenges his statements and then the topic is locked.
Anyway anyone who goes off and blindly believes everything he states is destined for problems.
He has been banned from other forums for this exact behaviour.
To decrease the weight on the rear axle and to increase the weight on the van axle group without changing the GCM the weight must come off the drawbar or in simple terms the drawbar must be lifted by the WDH which means there is less weight on the towball.
Instead of disagreeing just prove us wrong. The silent majority would be interested.
Regards
Rob
Rob,would you be kind enough to substantiate the claim that I have highlighted in your post above,as you made a similar claim at the start of the year.I have included a screen shot of my response to that original claim,but I can find no record of your reply? What you think about me is of little interest to me anyway,but it would be appreciated if you could offer some evidence to support your unsubstantiated claims. As highlighted in the screen shot,I don't really care. Always I offer advice from experience gained over many years with weights,and always that advice is factual,and easily substantiated. It is of little concern to me that you seem to not understand how a WDH works,and that you have no apparent interest in learning,but I am concerned that the rubbish you post will negatively affect 'newbies',or even current members who simply are trying to broaden their knowledge base,and learn how to tow legally,responsibly and safely.These are the very people I try to help,with much of that help being offered,and gratefully accepted,via PM to avoid unhelpful input from a couple of members who know little,understand less and have no apparent interest in learning.Have a nice day.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 09:59:07 AM
I note over the last few pages on this topic you have not answered one of the questions both myself and other members have put forward.
May I suggest that your replies from now on be that of answering those questions, without ridicule, without telling us all how you know more than anyone else, without displaying your total dislike for the 200 series over the 79 series and just provide an answer that is concise and readable for all to interpret and understand.
All these comments from you when you are challenged only goes to ruin the topic as a resource.
As I asked the other member in a post above, just give proof of your claims rather than your meagre attempt to discredit anyone who does not agree.
So in simple terms Yobarr, prove your point, the silent majority are waiting for a sensible input.
Regards
Rob
yobarr said
10:57 AM Mar 4, 2021
bentaxlebabe wrote:
Yobarr,
I note over the last few pages on this topic you have not answered one of the questions both myself and other members have put forward. May I suggest that your replies from now on be that of answering those questions, without ridicule, without telling us all how you know more than anyone else, without displaying your total dislike for the 200 series over the 79 series and just provide an answer that is concise and readable for all to interpret and understand.
All these comments from you when you are challenged only goes to ruin the topic as a resource.
As I asked the other member in a post above, just give proof of your claims rather than your meagre attempt to discredit anyone who does not agree.
So in simple terms Yobarr, prove your point, the silent majority are waiting for a sensible input.
Regards
Rob
Sorry to have confused you again,Rob,but the WDH question has been comprehensively answered,many times,here and elsewhere.To assist you further,I suggest that you:-Access the Hayman Reece WDH website.Access videos by John Cadogan. Access ANY simple-physics literature.Access my many detailed explanations of the workings of a WDH. Failing this,just accept that you do not really understand WDHs. And,once you have done these things,you should have no trouble finding time to tell me about the "...other forums..." from which I have been banned. You might like to READ,and sensibly respond to,the post I made today at 4.55am,paying close attention to the request that I made in the first sentence.Cheers
?
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 02:48:21 PM
montie said
11:33 AM Mar 4, 2021
My final post in this thread.
I think for some the issue needs to be simplified so let's go back to an elementary example.
Disconnect the tug and place a 200kg bar of lead on the towbar. Now what happens? The rear end drops and the front end lifts putting additional weight on the rear axle and taking a corresponding amount of weight off the front axle. Now get a jack, insert it under the towbar and jack up the rear end...now what happens? The rear end is raised and the front end drops balancing the weight distribution. What has not changed is the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar!
Now leaving the 200kg bar of lead on the towbar get a lever under the towbar and with your shoulder lift the tug's rear end...now what happens? Some of the weight is borne by your shoulder (depending on the lever length), some removed from rear axle and transferred to front axle, but guess what doesn't change...the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar. You cannot make it disappear unless you remove it.
I cannot put it in any simpler terms than that.
-- Edited by montie on Thursday 4th of March 2021 11:52:01 AM
yobarr said
12:34 PM Mar 4, 2021
montie wrote:
My final post in this thread.
I think for some the issue needs to be simplified so let's go back to an elementary example.
Disconnect the tug and place a 200kg bar of lead on the towbar. Now what happens? The rear end drops and the front end lifts putting additional weight on the rear axle and taking a corresponding amount of weight off the front axle. Now get a jack, insert it under the towbar and jack up the rear end...now what happens? The rear end is raised and the front end drops balancing the weight distribution. What has not changed is the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar!
Now leaving the 200kg bar of lead on the towbar get a lever under the towbar and with your shoulder lift the tug's rear end...now what happens? Some of the weight is borne by your shoulder (depending on the lever length), some removed from rear axle and transferred to front axle, but guess what doesn't change...the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar. You cannot make it disappear unless you remove it.
I cannot put it in any simpler terms than that.
Excellent explanation Montie....thankyou.Hard to put it in simpler terms than you have done,so now there is no reason for any person of average intelligence not to understand the physics.Well done.Cheers
Gundog said
02:53 PM Mar 4, 2021
How about we sort this out by declaring if you have experience in using WDH's on not ! .......yes I do use a WDH and couldn't give a rats ar$e about ball weight after the van is hooked up, because all my weight KPI's are within the limits for my Ranger.
montie said
03:07 PM Mar 4, 2021
Gundog wrote:
How about we sort this out by declaring if you have experience in using WDH's on not ! .......yes I do use a WDH and couldn't give a rats ar$e about ball weight after the van is hooked up, because all my weight KPI's are within the limits for my Ranger.
x2
Clarky 1 said
05:43 PM Mar 4, 2021
Gundog wrote:
How about we sort this out by declaring if you have experience in using WDH's on not ! .......yes I do use a WDH and couldn't give a rats ar$e about ball weight after the van is hooked up, because all my weight KPI's are within the limits for my Ranger.
Gundog, probably a good way to look at it for peace of mind..I like that, just know your weights are right and go.
You sound like a truckie.
Now, I hope I am not called a troll by the guy on here and after my last post I did follow advice and do a little more research with Hayman Reece.
Anyone interested needs to have a look at the example of weights by HAYMAN R.
We need to do a little arithmetic here so grab your calculators.
The picture by HR gives the weights and the heights with the separate car and caravan sitting on a weigh bridge.
The next row show the car and caravan connected and the weights from HR clearly showing the same GCM as was indicated on the top row if you care to do the additions.
The third row shows the weights once again, but this time with the WDH connected.
If once again you do the additions you will again note that the total of the new weights with the WDH connected is the same as the GCM as weighed in the first row.
This chart clearly shows no weight being recognised on the tow ball as the weight in both cases has been transferred to the other points on the car and caravan while on the weighbridge.
Now this is what HR told me when I rang them the other day but as I said....their claim of their Hitch not removing any tow ball weight is so that the consumer fully understands that when he is weighed correctly by a compliance officer a tow ball weight will be recorded because the car and van will be weighed separately and unhitched.
Someone else above correctly said that when a WDH is fitted, the vehicle and van chassis basically become one due to the simple physics of the interaction of the torsion bars between the two.
How about we sort this out by declaring if you have experience in using WDH's on not ! .......yes I do use a WDH and couldn't give a rats ar$e about ball weight after the van is hooked up, because all my weight KPI's are within the limits for my Ranger.
Gundog, probably a good way to look at it for peace of mind..I like that, just know your weights are right and go.
You sound like a truckie.
Now, I hope I am not called a troll by the guy on here and after my last post I did follow advice and do a little more research with Hayman Reece.
Anyone interested needs to have a look at the example of weights by HAYMAN R.
We need to do a little arithmetic here so grab your calculators.
The picture by HR gives the weights and the heights with the separate car and caravan sitting on a weigh bridge.
The next row show the car and caravan connected and the weights from HR clearly showing the same GCM as was indicated on the top row if you care to do the additions.
The third row shows the weights once again, but this time with the WDH connected.
If once again you do the additions you will again note that the total of the new weights with the WDH connected is the same as the GCM as weighed in the first row.
This chart clearly shows no weight being recognised on the tow ball as the weight in both cases has been transferred to the other points on the car and caravan while on the weighbridge.
Now this is what HR told me when I rang them the other day but as I said....their claim of their Hitch not removing any tow ball weight is so that the consumer fully understands that when he is weighed correctly by a compliance officer a tow ball weight will be recorded because the car and van will be weighed separately and unhitched.
Someone else above correctly said that when a WDH is fitted, the vehicle and van chassis basically become one due to the simple physics of the interaction of the torsion bars between the two.
Here is the document from Hayman Reece.
Hi Stu....you probably can be excused because you perhaps have not been closely following this forum,but this rubbish was posted by Brenda and Alan,not too long ago.IF you have a close look at the figures provided,you will notice that ball weight is listed as ZERO.This is an absolute nonsense. The HR WEBSITE lclearly states that towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned,but possibly in an effort to help 'learners' to understand the actions of a WDH,the towball weight has been listed as zero on this chart? Spare me! You possibly (probably?) have good intentions,but this rubbish has previously been extensively covered on this forum,and shown to be a nonsense.A caravan with zero towball weight would be uncontrollable, assuming that it is a PIG trailer,which maybe 99% of caravans are? Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:35:28 PM
yobarr said
06:57 PM Mar 4, 2021
Clarky 1 wrote:
Just so there is no confusion.....
All three methods of weighing give the same GCM.
Hmmmm..and what exactly did you expect? The GCM does not change,but weights are DISTRIBUTED differently. Amazing,isn't it? Cheers
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:30:03 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:59:09 PM
Clarky 1 said
08:55 PM Mar 4, 2021
yobarr wrote:
Clarky 1 wrote:
Just so there is no confusion.....
All three methods of weighing give the same GCM.
Hmmmm..and what exactly did you expect? The GCM does not change,but weights are DISTRIBUTED differently. Amazing,isn't it? Cheers
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:30:03 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:59:09 PM
So old mate...
we all have agreed pages ago that GCM will never change So that comment is nothing to do with this debate.
Care to comment on TBW.
Brenda and Alan said
09:11 PM Mar 4, 2021
montie wrote:
My final post in this thread.
I think for some the issue needs to be simplified so let's go back to an elementary example.
Disconnect the tug and place a 200kg bar of lead on the towbar. Now what happens? The rear end drops and the front end lifts putting additional weight on the rear axle and taking a corresponding amount of weight off the front axle. Now get a jack, insert it under the towbar and jack up the rear end...now what happens? The rear end is raised and the front end drops balancing the weight distribution. What has not changed is the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar!
Now leaving the 200kg bar of lead on the towbar get a lever under the towbar and with your shoulder lift the tug's rear end...now what happens? Some of the weight is borne by your shoulder (depending on the lever length), some removed from rear axle and transferred to front axle, but guess what doesn't change...the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar. You cannot make it disappear unless you remove it.
I cannot put it in any simpler terms than that.
Montie this is exactly my point. The 200 Kg of lead is still there but by jacking it up or lifting it up you have reduced the load from it on the tow bar. just like the grocers finger on the scales but lifting instead of pushing down.
Alan
-- Edited by montie on Thursday 4th of March 2021 11:52:01 AM
Clarky 1 said
09:15 PM Mar 4, 2021
yobarr wrote:
Clarky 1 wrote:
Gundog wrote:
How about we sort this out by declaring if you have experience in using WDH's on not ! .......yes I do use a WDH and couldn't give a rats ar$e about ball weight after the van is hooked up, because all my weight KPI's are within the limits for my Ranger.
Gundog, probably a good way to look at it for peace of mind..I like that, just know your weights are right and go.
You sound like a truckie.
Now, I hope I am not called a troll by the guy on here and after my last post I did follow advice and do a little more research with Hayman Reece.
Anyone interested needs to have a look at the example of weights by HAYMAN R.
We need to do a little arithmetic here so grab your calculators.
The picture by HR gives the weights and the heights with the separate car and caravan sitting on a weigh bridge.
The next row show the car and caravan connected and the weights from HR clearly showing the same GCM as was indicated on the top row if you care to do the additions.
The third row shows the weights once again, but this time with the WDH connected.
If once again you do the additions you will again note that the total of the new weights with the WDH connected is the same as the GCM as weighed in the first row.
This chart clearly shows no weight being recognised on the tow ball as the weight in both cases has been transferred to the other points on the car and caravan while on the weighbridge.
Now this is what HR told me when I rang them the other day but as I said....their claim of their Hitch not removing any tow ball weight is so that the consumer fully understands that when he is weighed correctly by a compliance officer a tow ball weight will be recorded because the car and van will be weighed separately and unhitched.
Someone else above correctly said that when a WDH is fitted, the vehicle and van chassis basically become one due to the simple physics of the interaction of the torsion bars between the two.
Here is the document from Hayman Reece.
Hi Stu....you probably can be excused because you perhaps have not been closely following this forum,but this rubbish was posted by Brenda and Alan,not too long ago.IF you have a close look at the figures provided,you will notice that ball weight is listed as ZERO.This is an absolute nonsense. The HR WEBSITE lclearly states that towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned,but possibly in an effort to help 'learners' to understand the actions of a WDH,the towball weight has been listed as zero on this chart? Spare me! You possibly (probably?) have good intentions,but this rubbish has previously been extensively covered on this forum,and shown to be a nonsense.A caravan with zero towball weight would be uncontrollable, assuming that it is a PIG trailer,which maybe 99% of caravans are? Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:35:28 PM
Yobarr dont excuse me for anything. I am fully conversant with weights of vehicles.
I see that you agree with a sales print from HR but the technical example is wrong....
Is that because it doesnt fit your argument.....???
You did not want to read the line about the WDH when connected becomes a torsion bar linking the chassis of both car and van and that my friend is how the weight is distributed.
I trust you will now sleep on your misguided opinion and see the light tomorrow..
Sleep tight old mate...
Brenda and Alan said
09:22 PM Mar 4, 2021
yobarr wrote:
Hi Stu....you probably can be excused because you perhaps have not been closely following this forum,but this rubbish was posted by Brenda and Alan,not too long ago.IF you have a close look at the figures provided,you will notice that ball weight is listed as ZERO.This is an absolute nonsense. The HR WEBSITE lclearly states that towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned,but possibly in an effort to help 'learners' to understand the actions of a WDH,the towball weight has been listed as zero on this chart? Spare me! You possibly (probably?) have good intentions,but this rubbish has previously been extensively covered on this forum,and shown to be a nonsense.A caravan with zero towball weight would be uncontrollable, assuming that it is a PIG trailer,which maybe 99% of caravans are? Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:35:28 PM
This rubbish as you call it is from Hayman Reece. How many times do you need to be told that I think a dash would have been more appropriate than zero, but I did not prepare this chart. But the weights still say it all.
Alan
yobarr said
10:27 PM Mar 4, 2021
"Where have all the flowers gone..." (Seekers). "...when will they ever learn?". As stated,you can lead a horse to water...
oldbloke said
10:59 PM Mar 4, 2021
How should I put this.
The tensioning of the bars:
1 Make level the rig. 2 Make the rig more ridged. (Pretty important i think) 3 Move some weight from rear car axle to front axles and van axles. 4 The laws of gravity indicate the TBW cant change. 5 But perhaps because there is now more weight on the van axle the TBW may increase just a few kg. But it can't just disappear.
6 Now the thread shoud be locked then I get the last say.
Wel.....I thought I understood that. Not so. See my next post. Lol
-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 4th of March 2021 11:21:16 PM
I think this thread has run it's race.
Irrefutable evidence has been produced and explanations given but some posters continue to argue, for what reason I'm not sure.
I do not understand what part of "weight is distributed from the tugs rear axle" they are having trouble with especially when the WDH manufacturer has confirmed this in writing.
So I can only conclude that these guys are arguing for the sake of it.
In that instance I think this thread is no longer informative.
Yobarr,
Go pack and read my post,
I did not say that the GCM increased but more asked the question of you that the GCM remained the same because the extra weight that appears magically on the caravan axle group can only come by the method of lifting the drawbar and thus taking some weight from the drawbar and applying that weight to the vans axle group.
Simple physics...if I may be as condescending.
Regards Rob
Yes Montie, unfortunately this is the case whereby once again Yobarrs rude and condescending comments to anyone who does not agree with him go on without any action until a member actually challenges his statements and then the topic is locked.
Anyway anyone who goes off and blindly believes everything he states is destined for problems.
He has been banned from other forums for this exact behaviour.
To decrease the weight on the rear axle and to increase the weight on the van axle group without changing the GCM the weight must come off the drawbar or in simple terms the drawbar must be lifted by the WDH which means there is less weight on the towball.
Instead of disagreeing just prove us wrong. The silent majority would be interested.
Regards
Rob
A little bit different perspective on an explanation , but in simple, broad terms -
Instead of 2 Beams (tow vehicle chassis and the caravan chassis ) with a hinge (Tow Ball in the middle, the WDH turns the layout it into 1 almost (adjustable) solid Beam from the front of the tow vehicle chassis to the rear end of the caravan chassis.
This then lets the combined weight (which is not evenly distributed along the beam ) be carried on the 1 Beam .
Final axle weights depend on the axles positioning along the Beam .
Maybe this ( my explanation ..and I am not an Engineer ) could help clarify how a "Weight Distribution Hitch" works .
It basically joins 2 Beams together so that the Total Load can be shared.
Rob,
Hayman Reece who are the manufacturers of the WDH clearly state that it's use does not change the ball weight.
What more proof do you need?
Now I happen to agree with them. Ball weight is transferred to the tug rear axle when the van is hooked up and the WDH distributes it from there. The weight applied to the tow bar does not change as stated by Hayman Reece.
Hi Monty,
I hope I am not being rude by butting in.
I have taken a bit of interest in this subject so I thought I might phone an agent of HR hitches.
There explanation is by using the hitch the tow ball weight wont change but this weight cannot be weighed without disconnecting the trailer so any prospective user of the WDH dos not automatically assume that it will correct an overweight situation on the Tow ball.
That is why they say that the ball weight wont change.
I think it is called covering ones backside.
I also asked them why in the speil they didnt tell anyone that the vans axle weight in some circumstances might be increased to exceed the trailers GTM.
His answer was be it right or wrong is that most open statements are sales and marketing based and any user should be checking all aspects on a weigh bridge. My thoughts are they dont tell anyone that as it may affect sales, but that is only my thoughts.
If we go back a couple of pages a bloke posted this as the method used by a compliance officer to weigh a van and this then rings true with what the HR rep was saying in dont assume by having a WDH your tow ball weight will be corrected.
So with a WDH the use may and will improve stability in many cases but that is about it.
Here is a pic of the compliance officers method of weighing which now becomes self explanatory.
Stu,
I think you should take all that up with the HR engineers......
Peter's method of weighing is absolutely correct but I fail to see the connection with this topic.
There are two aspects here
Firstly the use of a WDH does not change ball weight.
Secondly ball weight can only be measured when the van is unhooked.
I occasionally converse with Peter on another forum.
Towball weight is the most discussed subject that has little understanding by many, the bottom line maximum TBW is dictated by the rating plate on the towbar, that weight ceases to exist as soon as it is applied to the towbar, its only when some people get their knickers in a twist about TBW reducing when a WDH is used.
Lets look at a theroticial circumstance the towbar ID plate is rated at 3500kg TBW 350kg, the vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg. The caravan has an ATM of 2800kg, the accepted 10% non rule is the norm, however, if your ATM was 2800 and you choose to have a TBW of 300kg, you connected it to you tow vehicle applied a WDH, if the attitude of the combination was good and all weights were within specs and the combination towed and handled well, would we be having this conversation.
At the end of the day if you weighed and setup you combination correctly then this whole thread becomes nonsence ah but wait there's more, weighing is not a one time thing you should be mindful that weighing should be a regular activity.
Yobarr and Montie, Hayman Reece have EXPLAINED nothing on their website. And both of you keep refusing to understand that the tug becomes lighter as the WDH is tensioned in spite of repeated attempts to show that this is so. The figures don't lie. They clearly show that this is so. This clearly means that the download on the tow bar is reduced in spite of what you want to believe. When either or both of you can provide a legitimate set of weighing figures that shows this isn't the case I will examine them. Consistently both of you make claims and neither of you can back them up with any sort of figures or reasoning. Both of you keep trumpeting the tow ball weight doesn't change but have not given any concrete evidence that this true. Maybe you can't.
Alan,
Unfortunately I think you are in denial.
It has been explained to you several times backed up by the statement posted on HR's website.
Time to move on mate.
Alan,you apparently don't actually READ posts,or you would have seen these results that I posted TODAY at 8.09am.Cheers
Yobarr there is no post from you at 9.09 that I can see on my computer and certainly no posts from you with with factual information that negate the figures that I have presented.
If you can do it just present figures to support your claims instead of just nay saying what i post.
Alan
My mistake....Montie's post was made at 8.09am,in reply to my post,which was made at 7.46am.An observant person would have noticed that both those posts had the same content.Perhaps you also have missed the information provided direct from the Hayman Reece website,so I will again post it,in an effort to help you.If you do not agree,I suggest that you join forces with Rob,approach Hayman Reece directly,and let them know why,after 60 years,they still don't know what they're talking about? This certainly would be preferable to you tainting the factual information supplied by Montie and I, among others, with the real losers being newbies who are trying to learn about weights,and existing members who simply are trying to broaden their knowledge base,and learn how to tow legally,responsibly and safely.Cheers
Rob,would you be kind enough to substantiate the claim that I have highlighted in your post above,as you made a similar claim at the start of the year.I have included a screen shot of my response to that original claim,but I can find no record of your reply? What you think about me is of little interest to me anyway,but it would be appreciated if you could offer some evidence to support your unsubstantiated claims. As highlighted in the screen shot,I don't really care. Always I offer advice from experience gained over many years with weights,and always that advice is factual,and easily substantiated. It is of little concern to me that you seem to not understand how a WDH works,and that you have no apparent interest in learning,but I am concerned that the rubbish you post will negatively affect 'newbies',or even current members who simply are trying to broaden their knowledge base,and learn how to tow legally,responsibly and safely.These are the very people I try to help,with much of that help being offered,and gratefully accepted,via PM to avoid unhelpful input from a couple of members who know little,understand less and have no apparent interest in learning.Have a nice day.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 09:59:07 AM
I note over the last few pages on this topic you have not answered one of the questions both myself and other members have put forward.
May I suggest that your replies from now on be that of answering those questions, without ridicule, without telling us all how you know more than anyone else, without displaying your total dislike for the 200 series over the 79 series and just provide an answer that is concise and readable for all to interpret and understand.
All these comments from you when you are challenged only goes to ruin the topic as a resource.
As I asked the other member in a post above, just give proof of your claims rather than your meagre attempt to discredit anyone who does not agree.
So in simple terms Yobarr, prove your point, the silent majority are waiting for a sensible input.
Regards
Rob
Sorry to have confused you again,Rob,but the WDH question has been comprehensively answered,many times,here and elsewhere.To assist you further,I suggest that you:-Access the Hayman Reece WDH website.Access videos by John Cadogan. Access ANY simple-physics literature.Access my many detailed explanations of the workings of a WDH. Failing this,just accept that you do not really understand WDHs. And,once you have done these things,you should have no trouble finding time to tell me about the "...other forums..." from which I have been banned. You might like to READ,and sensibly respond to,the post I made today at 4.55am,paying close attention to the request that I made in the first sentence.Cheers
?
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 02:48:21 PM
My final post in this thread.
I think for some the issue needs to be simplified so let's go back to an elementary example.
Disconnect the tug and place a 200kg bar of lead on the towbar. Now what happens? The rear end drops and the front end lifts putting additional weight on the rear axle and taking a corresponding amount of weight off the front axle. Now get a jack, insert it under the towbar and jack up the rear end...now what happens? The rear end is raised and the front end drops balancing the weight distribution. What has not changed is the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar!
Now leaving the 200kg bar of lead on the towbar get a lever under the towbar and with your shoulder lift the tug's rear end...now what happens? Some of the weight is borne by your shoulder (depending on the lever length), some removed from rear axle and transferred to front axle, but guess what doesn't change...the 200kg bar of lead is still sitting on the towbar. You cannot make it disappear unless you remove it.
I cannot put it in any simpler terms than that.
-- Edited by montie on Thursday 4th of March 2021 11:52:01 AM
Excellent explanation Montie....thankyou.Hard to put it in simpler terms than you have done,so now there is no reason for any person of average intelligence not to understand the physics.Well done.Cheers
x2
Gundog, probably a good way to look at it for peace of mind..I like that, just know your weights are right and go.
You sound like a truckie.
Now, I hope I am not called a troll by the guy on here and after my last post I did follow advice and do a little more research with Hayman Reece.
Anyone interested needs to have a look at the example of weights by HAYMAN R.
We need to do a little arithmetic here so grab your calculators.
The picture by HR gives the weights and the heights with the separate car and caravan sitting on a weigh bridge.
The next row show the car and caravan connected and the weights from HR clearly showing the same GCM as was indicated on the top row if you care to do the additions.
The third row shows the weights once again, but this time with the WDH connected.
If once again you do the additions you will again note that the total of the new weights with the WDH connected is the same as the GCM as weighed in the first row.
This chart clearly shows no weight being recognised on the tow ball as the weight in both cases has been transferred to the other points on the car and caravan while on the weighbridge.
Now this is what HR told me when I rang them the other day but as I said....their claim of their Hitch not removing any tow ball weight is so that the consumer fully understands that when he is weighed correctly by a compliance officer a tow ball weight will be recorded because the car and van will be weighed separately and unhitched.
Someone else above correctly said that when a WDH is fitted, the vehicle and van chassis basically become one due to the simple physics of the interaction of the torsion bars between the two.
Here is the document from Hayman Reece.
Just so there is no confusion.....
All three methods of weighing give the same GCM.
-- Edited by Clarky 1 on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:30:03 PM
Hi Stu....you probably can be excused because you perhaps have not been closely following this forum,but this rubbish was posted by Brenda and Alan,not too long ago.IF you have a close look at the figures provided,you will notice that ball weight is listed as ZERO.This is an absolute nonsense. The HR WEBSITE lclearly states that towball weight does not change when a WDH is tensioned,but possibly in an effort to help 'learners' to understand the actions of a WDH,the towball weight has been listed as zero on this chart? Spare me! You possibly (probably?) have good intentions,but this rubbish has previously been extensively covered on this forum,and shown to be a nonsense.A caravan with zero towball weight would be uncontrollable, assuming that it is a PIG trailer,which maybe 99% of caravans are? Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:35:28 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 4th of March 2021 06:59:09 PM
So old mate...
we all have agreed pages ago that GCM will never change So that comment is nothing to do with this debate.
Care to comment on TBW.
Yobarr dont excuse me for anything. I am fully conversant with weights of vehicles.
I see that you agree with a sales print from HR but the technical example is wrong....
Is that because it doesnt fit your argument.....???
You did not want to read the line about the WDH when connected becomes a torsion bar linking the chassis of both car and van and that my friend is how the weight is distributed.
I trust you will now sleep on your misguided opinion and see the light tomorrow..
Sleep tight old mate...
This rubbish as you call it is from Hayman Reece. How many times do you need to be told that I think a dash would have been more appropriate than zero, but I did not prepare this chart. But the weights still say it all.
Alan
"Where have all the flowers gone..." (Seekers). "...when will they ever learn?". As stated,you can lead a horse to water...
How should I put this.
The tensioning of the bars:
1 Make level the rig.
2 Make the rig more ridged. (Pretty important i think)
3 Move some weight from rear car axle to front axles and van axles.
4 The laws of gravity indicate the TBW cant change.
5 But perhaps because there is now more weight on the van axle the TBW may increase just a few kg. But it can't just disappear.
6 Now the thread shoud be locked then I get the last say.
Wel.....I thought I understood that. Not so. See my next post. Lol
-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 4th of March 2021 11:21:16 PM