You do not see a problem with moving the towball further away from the rear axle? That system is aimed at the US market for trucks like F350 and bigger.
Surely that contraption wouldn't remain in place once towball weight has been established? As you suggest, probably aimed at US market as it would be a disaster looking for somewhere to occur if put on an LC200, or any of the more popular twin-cabs. Actually, on anything except a Ram 2500, Big Silverado, F350 etc. Waste of money. Get a bigger car or a smaller van. Problem solved! Cheers
Ben Taxyl said
03:46 PM May 14, 2023
The answer is here! Everything you need to know!
All you have to do is apply it to your van.
I'm outa here now, can't afford the popcorn.
Cheers, Ben.
Gundog said
04:06 PM May 14, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Surely that contraption wouldn't remain in place once towball weight has been established?
It does remain in place, because the dial guage is used also to dial up the force applied to the weight distribution bars.
watsea said
04:28 PM May 14, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
Oh no! Bringing practical and detailed into a WDH discussion will be all too much.
I will be interested to see your workings on how you calculated the difference when tensioning the WDH. I would have thought you would need the measurement of where the WDH downward force is applied on the drawbar to derive the ratio with the van wheel distance.
Also, the usual guideline for a starting point is to return half the lost weight on the tow vehicle front axles. Your calculations show a restoration of almost 100% so your example is not a recommended situation. However I appreciate that your calculation starts with a given at the van wheels.
Are We Lost,
In my workings, I simply applied a torque at the WDH. That could be any type of WDH ie a similar type to a HR WDH or, say, an Andersen type or some other that we don't know about. Applying the torque was in the calculations. Sure how the respective types apply that torque will generate forces in the A frame and hitch. As we should understand, the vehicle-caravan combination must be able to bear the extra forces for the WDH system to work.
I found working from an assumed extra wheel load at the trailer and working forwards, were easier calculations than working from the front, where I might have to solve a simultaneous equation.
Attached workings for when an extra 50kg is distributed to the van's wheels and workings for when an extra 20kg is distributed to the van's wheels. Of course, with the latter case, there is a lesser restoration of weight to the vehicle's front wheels.
Possum3,
I cannot see where I am showing a trailer weight reduction of 200kg. Are getting mixed up with weight of the vehicle at 2,700kg and the van's weight of 2,500kg?
Edit: preemptive text typo error
-- Edited by watsea on Sunday 14th of May 2023 07:36:22 PM
As per usual knock and nit pick because you don't bother to get the information, because its new its easy to be lazy and hope someone else will the donkey work for your, because it dosnt fit your narrative.
And the tow ball is still moved further from the rear axle.
yobarr said
06:44 PM May 14, 2023
BarneyBDB wrote:
And the tow ball is still moved further from the rear axle.
Settle back Barney! Way too much logic there as some people seem to not yet understand the dangers of extra TBO. Multipling the towball weight that is applied to the cars rear axle is one. Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
But who cares? It looks good and may give the owner something to talk about.
As suggested earlier, it may be a good bit of gear on one of the BIGGER Yank Tanks, but useless on the vast majority of Aussie cars.. cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 06:46:40 PM
Gundog said
07:02 PM May 14, 2023
Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 06:46:40 PM
So where did you get that data from ?
Most modern caravan have sway control, some older vans may have mechanical sway control, do those devices reduce the Yaw ?
Are We Lost said
07:28 PM May 14, 2023
Occasionally I agree with Yobarr and this is one of those times.
I don't think that device has a useful application for the typical caravanner here. As Barney pointed out, the extension of the rear axle to towball distance adds risk of yaw, and is much greater than the typical WDH we see. It looks pretty heavy and that additional weight would also count against it. The weight scale goes to 5000lbs which suggests it is intended to be used on much larger rigs. But what looks like a standard ball is a bit surprising.
I can't leave this with readers thinking that I agree with much of Yobarr's sentiments so I will add .....
The additional weight and overhang distance when a typical WDH is fitted is usually not large enough to be concerned about, because the benefits outweigh those disadvantages.
BarneyBDB said
07:31 PM May 14, 2023
Way too much denial and / or deflection in this discussion...
Sorry mate, we posted at the same time, what you refer to as a "standard ball" is actually a larger US ball, as they tow much higher loads than us they use larger connections.
-- Edited by BarneyBDB on Sunday 14th of May 2023 07:34:33 PM
yobarr said
07:43 PM May 14, 2023
Gundog wrote:
Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
So where did you get that data from ?
Most modern caravan have sway control, some older vans may have mechanical sway control, do those devices reduce the Yaw ?
Because I believe that such devices are well-marketed gimmicks for those who can't load and drive their vehicles correctly, and don't have a 'feel' for their vehicle, I have not spent too much time researching them.
However, I did read somewhere that such devices work only at lower speeds, and are virtually useless above 80km/hr.
Don't know, but my 6800kg GCM car and van combination NEVER moves in either strong winds or when being passed by the many quad Roadtrains (4 trailers) here in WA, probably because it's loaded correctly?
If safety is of any concern, always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van it is towing.
Minimises the chances of the Tail wagging the Dog .Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 07:44:50 PM
Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
So where did you get that data from ?
Most modern caravan have sway control, some older vans may have mechanical sway control, do those devices reduce the Yaw ?
Hi Graham. Did you not notice the words "one of the biggest" ?
There is no data that I am aware of, but a study of caravan-crash videos, combined with my own observations, and a basic understanding of physics led me to that conclusion.
Because I predicted objection for the sake of objection, I qualified my suggestion with the words "one of". Hopefully this answers your question? Cheers
Gundog said
09:52 PM May 14, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
So where did you get that data from ?
Most modern caravan have sway control, some older vans may have mechanical sway control, do those devices reduce the Yaw ?
Hi Graham. Did you not notice the words "one of the biggest" ?
There is no data that I am aware of, but a study of caravan-crash videos, combined with my own observations, and a basic understanding of physics led me to that conclusion.
Because I predicted objection for the sake of objection, I qualified my suggestion with the words "one of". Hopefully this answers your question? Cheers
So Bingo no facts just your opinion.
Opinions are like Aholes everyone has one, but that mean they are easy to dissmiss.
Long Weekend said
09:52 PM May 14, 2023
I would like to see what is at the front of that van with the full size fridge on the back! The unbelievable weight on the back must have a serious effect on the towing vehicle. (How do you suppose they even managed to lift it up to tie it on?)
Several months ago I did see a reference that even carrying a couple of bicycles on the back can be illegal. And not as supposed because of weight, but because the length of the van has been extended past the rear bumper. Sorry, I cannot recall the specific details or reference.
If that is true then any van with objects hanging from the back could be pulled over by the police for no other reason.
Yobarr posted that other photo some time ago. As I recall not only were there a large family on board the towing vehicle but there were also heavy objects hanging off the back, so much so that it should have effected the down load on the front which is seriously down in the photo.
The driver was obviously one of those that think if the tow vehicle can move it, then it can tow it on the highway. (Note the absence of of a WDH and towing mirrors!)
Murray
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Sunday 14th of May 2023 09:56:33 PM
yobarr said
10:34 PM May 14, 2023
Gundog wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Gundog wrote:
Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
So where did you get that data from ?
Most modern caravan have sway control, some older vans may have mechanical sway control, do those devices reduce the Yaw ?
Hi Graham. Did you not notice the words "one of the biggest" ?
There is no data that I am aware of, but a study of caravan-crash videos, combined with my own observations, and a basic understanding of physics led me to that conclusion.
Because I predicted objection for the sake of objection, I qualified my suggestion with the words "one of". Hopefully this answers your question? Cheers
So Bingo no facts just your opinion.
Opinions are like Aholes everyone has one, but that mean they are easy to dissmiss.
Not sure what youre referring to in your last sentence above, but I thought that Id clearly explained my postion. Seems that my explanation still is beyond your comprehension, so you have had to resort to childish insults. Sad. Cest le vie. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 10:44:09 PM
I would like to see what is at the front of that van with the full size fridge on the back! The unbelievable weight on the back must have a serious effect on the towing vehicle. (How do you suppose they even managed to lift it up to tie it on?)
Several months ago I did see a reference that even carrying a couple of bicycles on the back can be illegal. And not as supposed because of weight, but because the length of the van has been extended past the rear bumper. Sorry, I cannot recall the specific details or reference.
If that is true then any van with objects hanging from the back could be pulled over by the police for no other reason.
Yobarr posted that other photo some time ago. As I recall not only were there a large family on board the towing vehicle but there were also heavy objects hanging off the back, so much so that it should have effected the down load on the front which is seriously down in the photo.
The driver was obviously one of those that think if the tow vehicle can move it, then it can tow it on the highway. (Note the absence of of a WDH and towing mirrors!)
Murray
Hi Murray. Its to do with rear overhang, which must be the lesser of 3.7 metres, or the front load space. Cheers
Long Weekend said
10:44 AM May 15, 2023
Thanks for that Yobarr.
As the only thing on the back of our van is the spare wheel, we should be safe.
Because we are not full time travellers, and never free camp, we do not have to carry much equipment. However, in the last ten years we have travelled a total of 56,536-kilometres. And we are yet to do the big lap.
Murray
Edit: added a PS.
PS: To clarify, I count the return trips in the total. So the 56,536kms is the distance the van(s) were towed.
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Monday 15th of May 2023 10:55:22 AM
jegog said
07:13 PM May 15, 2023
Just trying to work out where he has stashed the proverbial kitchen sink.
Surely that contraption wouldn't remain in place once towball weight has been established? As you suggest, probably aimed at US market as it would be a disaster looking for somewhere to occur if put on an LC200, or any of the more popular twin-cabs. Actually, on anything except a Ram 2500, Big Silverado, F350 etc. Waste of money. Get a bigger car or a smaller van. Problem solved! Cheers
The answer is here! Everything you need to know!
All you have to do is apply it to your van.
I'm outa here now, can't afford the popcorn.
Cheers, Ben.
It does remain in place, because the dial guage is used also to dial up the force applied to the weight distribution bars.
Are We Lost,
In my workings, I simply applied a torque at the WDH. That could be any type of WDH ie a similar type to a HR WDH or, say, an Andersen type or some other that we don't know about. Applying the torque was in the calculations. Sure how the respective types apply that torque will generate forces in the A frame and hitch. As we should understand, the vehicle-caravan combination must be able to bear the extra forces for the WDH system to work.
I found working from an assumed extra wheel load at the trailer and working forwards, were easier calculations than working from the front, where I might have to solve a simultaneous equation.
Attached workings for when an extra 50kg is distributed to the van's wheels and workings for when an extra 20kg is distributed to the van's wheels. Of course, with the latter case, there is a lesser restoration of weight to the vehicle's front wheels.
Possum3,
I cannot see where I am showing a trailer weight reduction of 200kg. Are getting mixed up with weight of the vehicle at 2,700kg and the van's weight of 2,500kg?
Edit: preemptive text typo error
-- Edited by watsea on Sunday 14th of May 2023 07:36:22 PM
As per usual knock and nit pick because you don't bother to get the information, because its new its easy to be lazy and hope someone else will the donkey work for your, because it dosnt fit your narrative.
Settle back Barney! Way too much logic there as some people seem to not yet understand the dangers of extra TBO.
Multipling the towball weight that is applied to the cars rear axle is one. Another is YAW, which is one of the biggest causes of caravan crashes. (theyre not really accidents).
But who cares? It looks good and may give the owner something to talk about.
As suggested earlier, it may be a good bit of gear on one of the BIGGER Yank Tanks, but useless on the vast majority of Aussie cars.. cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 06:46:40 PM
So where did you get that data from ?
Most modern caravan have sway control, some older vans may have mechanical sway control, do those devices reduce the Yaw ?
I don't think that device has a useful application for the typical caravanner here. As Barney pointed out, the extension of the rear axle to towball distance adds risk of yaw, and is much greater than the typical WDH we see. It looks pretty heavy and that additional weight would also count against it. The weight scale goes to 5000lbs which suggests it is intended to be used on much larger rigs. But what looks like a standard ball is a bit surprising.
I can't leave this with readers thinking that I agree with much of Yobarr's sentiments so I will add .....
The additional weight and overhang distance when a typical WDH is fitted is usually not large enough to be concerned about, because the benefits outweigh those disadvantages.
Way too much denial and / or deflection in this discussion...
Sorry mate, we posted at the same time, what you refer to as a "standard ball" is actually a larger US ball, as they tow much higher loads than us they use larger connections.
-- Edited by BarneyBDB on Sunday 14th of May 2023 07:34:33 PM
Because I believe that such devices are well-marketed gimmicks for those who can't load and drive their vehicles correctly, and don't have a 'feel' for their vehicle, I have not spent too much time researching them.
However, I did read somewhere that such devices work only at lower speeds, and are virtually useless above 80km/hr.
Don't know, but my 6800kg GCM car and van combination NEVER moves in either strong winds or when being passed by the many quad Roadtrains (4 trailers) here in WA, probably because it's loaded correctly?
If safety is of any concern, always the weight on the wheels of the car should be at least 10% greater than the weight on the wheels of the van it is towing.
Minimises the chances of the Tail wagging the Dog .Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 07:44:50 PM
Hi Graham. Did you not notice the words "one of the biggest" ?
There is no data that I am aware of, but a study of caravan-crash videos, combined with my own observations, and a basic understanding of physics led me to that conclusion.
Because I predicted objection for the sake of objection, I qualified my suggestion with the words "one of".
Hopefully this answers your question? Cheers
So Bingo no facts just your opinion.
Opinions are like Aholes everyone has one, but that mean they are easy to dissmiss.
I would like to see what is at the front of that van with the full size fridge on the back! The unbelievable weight on the back must have a serious effect on the towing vehicle. (How do you suppose they even managed to lift it up to tie it on?)
Several months ago I did see a reference that even carrying a couple of bicycles on the back can be illegal. And not as supposed because of weight, but because the length of the van has been extended past the rear bumper. Sorry, I cannot recall the specific details or reference.
If that is true then any van with objects hanging from the back could be pulled over by the police for no other reason.
Yobarr posted that other photo some time ago. As I recall not only were there a large family on board the towing vehicle but there were also heavy objects hanging off the back, so much so that it should have effected the down load on the front which is seriously down in the photo.
The driver was obviously one of those that think if the tow vehicle can move it, then it can tow it on the highway. (Note the absence of of a WDH and towing mirrors!)
Murray
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Sunday 14th of May 2023 09:56:33 PM
Not sure what youre referring to in your last sentence above, but I thought that Id clearly explained my postion.
Seems that my explanation still is beyond your comprehension, so you have had to resort to childish insults. Sad. Cest le vie. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 14th of May 2023 10:44:09 PM
Hi Murray. Its to do with rear overhang, which must be the lesser of 3.7 metres, or the front load space. Cheers
Thanks for that Yobarr.
As the only thing on the back of our van is the spare wheel, we should be safe.
Because we are not full time travellers, and never free camp, we do not have to carry much equipment. However, in the last ten years we have travelled a total of 56,536-kilometres. And we are yet to do the big lap.
Murray
Edit: added a PS.
PS: To clarify, I count the return trips in the total. So the 56,536kms is the distance the van(s) were towed.
-- Edited by Long Weekend on Monday 15th of May 2023 10:55:22 AM