Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur, the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH does not change.
4 - Fitting stiffer rear springs to your tow vehicle has the same effect as a WDH The message about fitting uprated rear suspension on vehicles gets confused between GVM (gross vehicle mass) and GCM (gross combined mass) by some well-meaning owners. Numerous aftermarket suspension companies offer well-engineered upgrades which can increase a vehicles payload capacity, and therefore its GVM. Stiffer rear suspension can also reduce rear-end squat under a towing load, but the most effective way to eliminate the nose-lifting effect of a heavy trailer on a tow vehicle is with a quality WDH.
1. Nobody is saying the TBW just evaporates into thin air. We are saying its distributed or moved. Yobbo just tries to insinuate we are saying that.
2. Best method is WDH. Not heavier springs. TBW stays on the rear with heavy springs
In both cases he agrees with me..
That's right. #3. I am in agreeance with him. See the "bold" section.
orid said
05:33 PM Apr 22, 2021
orid wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
Oldbloke thanks for the quote ,but do you realise it is number 3 of the 8 Myths that is what it is saying .
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch ( 3rd MYTH)
A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur,{{ does not change.))) the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH
day 22nd of April 2021 05:31:07 PM
-- Edited by orid on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 05:32:21 PM
yobarr said
05:37 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur, the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH does not change.
4 - Fitting stiffer rear springs to your tow vehicle has the same effect as a WDH The message about fitting uprated rear suspension on vehicles gets confused between GVM (gross vehicle mass) and GCM (gross combined mass) by some well-meaning owners. Numerous aftermarket suspension companies offer well-engineered upgrades which can increase a vehicles payload capacity, and therefore its GVM. Stiffer rear suspension can also reduce rear-end squat under a towing load, but the most effective way to eliminate the nose-lifting effect of a heavy trailer on a tow vehicle is with a quality WDH.
1. Nobody is saying the TBW just evaporates into thin air. We are saying its distributed or moved. Yobbo just tries to insinuate we are saying that.
2. Best method is WDH. Not heavier springs. TBW stays on the rear with heavy springs
In both cases he agrees with me..
That's right. #3. I am in agreeance with him. See the "bold" section.
Hi Neil...you may be interested to note that the words that I have highlighted in red are EXACTLY what I have been saying all along? Does this mean that you've finally realised that I DO know what I'm talking about? Cheers
montie said
05:52 PM Apr 22, 2021
So does everybody now agree that a WDH does not change ball download?
Which of course it doesn't.
oldbloke said
05:54 PM Apr 22, 2021
orid wrote:
orid wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
Oldbloke thanks for the quote ,but do you realise it is number 3 of the 8 Myths that is what it is saying .
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch ( 3rd MYTH)
A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur,{{ does not change.))) the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH
day 22nd of April 2021 05:31:07 PM
-- Edited by orid on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 05:32:21 PM
Orid, you need to read what a type. I have never said it changed or disappeared in to thin air. ( you and yobbo are just verbaling me)
The original graphic simply indicates that the TBW is no longer measured under the jockey wheel. TBW is now transfered to mainly the front axle(s). I mean its pretty simple mate. Sheesh. This is what I have stated many times. (Boring)
I guess pride is forcing yourself and yobbo to continue to ague the point with just BS inorder to save face. After all you have been pending this BS for all to see on the internet.
Does the weight come off the TBW and Rear Axle of the tow vehicle to the value of the TBW when a WDH is adjusted correctly as per the video and the HR fact sheet and this same value of weight is transferred both to the front axle of the tow vehicle and the van axle group......or not?
Regards
Rob
For the hundredth time,NO weight is removed from the towball when a WDH is tensioned...NONE.However,if you could again ask your question in an unambiguous manner, I will be more than happy to help you understand weights.Cheers
yobarr said
06:02 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
orid wrote:
orid wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
Oldbloke thanks for the quote ,but do you realise it is number 3 of the 8 Myths that is what it is saying .
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch ( 3rd MYTH)
A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur,{{ does not change.))) the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH
day 22nd of April 2021 05:31:07 PM
-- Edited by orid on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 05:32:21 PM
Orid, you need to read what a type. I have never said it changed or disappeared in to thin air. ( you and yobbo are just verbaling me)
The original graphic simply indicates that the TBW is no longer measured under the jockey wheel. TBW is now transfered to mainly the front axle(s). I mean its pretty simple mate. Sheesh. This is what I have stated many times. (Boring)
I guess pride is forcing yourself and yobbo to continue to ague the point with just BS inorder to save face. After all you have been pending this BS for all to see on the internet.
Neil,could I respectfully ask you to cease using an incorrect user name when responding to my posts? It takes no effort to be civil.Cheers
montie said
06:02 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
orid wrote:
orid wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
Oldbloke thanks for the quote ,but do you realise it is number 3 of the 8 Myths that is what it is saying .
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch ( 3rd MYTH)
A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur,{{ does not change.))) the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH
day 22nd of April 2021 05:31:07 PM
-- Edited by orid on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 05:32:21 PM
Orid, you need to read what a type. I have never said it changed or disappeared in to thin air. ( you and yobbo are just verbaling me)
The original graphic simply indicates that the TBW is no longer measured under the jockey wheel. TBW is now transfered to mainly the front axle(s). I mean its pretty simple mate. Sheesh. This is what I have stated many times. (Boring)
I guess pride is forcing yourself and yobbo to continue to ague the point with just BS inorder to save face. After all you have been pending this BS for all to see on the internet.
Towball weight of a hitched van cannot be measured at all...jockey wheel or anywhere else.
oldbloke said
06:03 PM Apr 22, 2021
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur, the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH does not change.
4 - Fitting stiffer rear springs to your tow vehicle has the same effect as a WDH The message about fitting uprated rear suspension on vehicles gets confused between GVM (gross vehicle mass) and GCM (gross combined mass) by some well-meaning owners. Numerous aftermarket suspension companies offer well-engineered upgrades which can increase a vehicles payload capacity, and therefore its GVM. Stiffer rear suspension can also reduce rear-end squat under a towing load, but the most effective way to eliminate the nose-lifting effect of a heavy trailer on a tow vehicle is with a quality WDH.
1. Nobody is saying the TBW just evaporates into thin air. We are saying its distributed or moved. Yobbo just tries to insinuate we are saying that.
2. Best method is WDH. Not heavier springs. TBW stays on the rear with heavy springs
In both cases he agrees with me..
That's right. #3. I am in agreeance with him. See the "bold" section.
Hi Neil...you may be interested to note that the words that I have highlighted in red are EXACTLY what I have been saying all along? Does this mean that you've finally realised that I DO know what I'm talking about? Cheers
So Yobbo, are you going to stop verbalising me. In bold so you can read it. I have never said it changed. Show me where I said that. If fact your insulting to suggest it. You did not understand the graphic from HR.
Show me where I said that.
Show me where I said that.
Show me where I said that.
yobarr said
06:23 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
Originally, from the web site you suggested. A copy paste.
3 - You can decrease the tow-ball download by fitting a weight distribution hitch A weight distribution hitch (WDH) is a wonderful device which does exactly what its name implies. Its powerful leveraging effect provides a better distribution of weight across all axles resulting in a level ride height for tow vehicle and trailer, which is particularly important in maintaining effective steering and front wheel braking in the tow vehicle. However, just because a WDHs leveraging effect (often compared to raising the long handles of a wheelbarrow) allows this ride levelling to occur, the amount of weight on the tow-ball prior to fitting the WDH does not change.
4 - Fitting stiffer rear springs to your tow vehicle has the same effect as a WDH The message about fitting uprated rear suspension on vehicles gets confused between GVM (gross vehicle mass) and GCM (gross combined mass) by some well-meaning owners. Numerous aftermarket suspension companies offer well-engineered upgrades which can increase a vehicles payload capacity, and therefore its GVM. Stiffer rear suspension can also reduce rear-end squat under a towing load, but the most effective way to eliminate the nose-lifting effect of a heavy trailer on a tow vehicle is with a quality WDH.
1. Nobody is saying the TBW just evaporates into thin air. We are saying its distributed or moved. Yobbo just tries to insinuate we are saying that.
2. Best method is WDH. Not heavier springs. TBW stays on the rear with heavy springs
In both cases he agrees with me..
That's right. #3. I am in agreeance with him. See the "bold" section.
Hi Neil...you may be interested to note that the words that I have highlighted in red are EXACTLY what I have been saying all along? Does this mean that you've finally realised that I DO know what I'm talking about? Cheers
So Yobbo, are you going to stop verbalising me. In bold so you can read it. I have never said it changed. Show me where I said that. If fact your insulting to suggest it. You did not understand the graphic from HR.
Show me where I said that.
Show me where I said that.
Show me where I said that.
This may well confuse you,but if towball weight has been moved,it is clear that the weight on the towball has changed.Are you sure you're not simply being mischievous,as little you post on THIS topic makes sense? Usually your posts are interesting,but you appear well and truly lost here? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 06:31:07 PM
No doubt about it yobbo. Your a troll.
Transferred or moved or for that mater distributed as i stated many times is not changed in the context you are using.
Troll
Trouble maker.
Argumentive.
oldbloke said
06:33 PM Apr 22, 2021
Yobbo,
You got the HR graphic wrong for months and can't admit it, can you? Now your trying to save face.
Greg 1 said
06:38 PM Apr 22, 2021
Yobarr, the issue I have with the articles you have used written by some half baked journo, is that SAE J2807 is the standard describing the method of test for towing vehicles and trailers. It does not discuss outcomes of tests, only the methodology.
No where does it indicate that WDH's reduce cornering ability by 25%.
His description of why to use a WDH is not discussed either by this standard.
It does give a formula to work out how much tension should be applied to the bars by measuring the difference in change of load on the front axle with the hitch fitted to not having it fitted. This change is then divided by the difference in change made by the trailer ball weight no WDH over the front axle load no trailer and expressed in a percentage. The standard gives the equation to work that out.
They recommend a 50% figure for this percentage. It has nothing to do with tail droop as he says in the article. Another journo that wouldn't know if his pants were on fire.
The other thing I take issue with is the statement that most caravan accidents are caused by WDH's. I call bs on that. Show us the data. I bet there is none, as investigated traffic accidents and the results of such investigations are rarely released to the public, and in most instances it would be impossible to determine what influence a WDH had or did not have on the outcome.
All of this stuff is just peoples opinions which are like bums, everyone has one.
The Article you posted in second spot was written by a bloke that even admitted he had never used a WDH. How the hell is he any sort of expert for gods sake.
When he has driven the tens of thousands of kilometres that I have towing van's both with and without a WDH, then he just might be qualified to have an opinion on one.
orid said
06:38 PM Apr 22, 2021
Yobarr the
(,can't face the truth mob is now quirming with excuses)
and back tracking ,
The whole argument has been on whether a WDH removes weight from the tow ball.
the answer is No
now its changing to (I never said )
what a laugh.
I'm out of here .
I know you won't , but suggest you do the same .
Regards Orid
oldbloke said
06:44 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
So I'm a little puzzled. Some people have their tow vehicles tow rating up graded and because its now level do not use a WDH.
As has been discussed many times the WDH distributes some TBW load off the rear axle onto the front wheels and the van axles.
Am I wrong or does the rating increase primarily done by simply installing more/stiffer leaf springs? Perhaps also beef up the chassis?
If this is the case, wouldn't the rear axle still act as a fulcrum thereby taking most of the weight and also reducing the weight/load on the front wheels (perhaps not as bad) resulting in poorer braking and steering? Sure, head lights would remain aligned. I get the feeling its not much different to using air bags? Think see-saw.
Ummm, let's keep this civil. :)
Orid, you got it wrong again mate. Try to get something right just for once. Try reading the OP. (above)
You blokes really do look silly.
yobarr said
06:48 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
No doubt about it yobbo. Your a troll. Transferred or moved or for that mater distributed as i stated many times is not changed in the context you are using.
Troll Trouble maker. Argumentive.
The word you seek probably is "argumentative",but all I ever do is present detailed advice on weights to help those with little,or no,understanding of same.If ever I post something that I am not 100% sure of,I will preface it with something along the lines of "I believe",or similar.STILL you seem not to accept that TBW cannot be "Transferred" or "moved" without that weight being taken off the towball? If that weight is "moved" or "transferred" simple logic would dictate that the weight on the towball has changed? A WDH does NOT change towball weight...ever.Period.Cheers
yobarr said
07:01 PM Apr 22, 2021
Greg 1 wrote:
Yobarr, the issue I have with the articles you have used written by some half baked journo, is that SAE J2807 is the standard describing the method of test for towing vehicles and trailers. It does not discuss outcomes of tests, only the methodology. No where does it indicate that WDH's reduce cornering ability by 25%. His description of why to use a WDH is not discussed either by this standard. It does give a formula to work out how much tension should be applied to the bars by measuring the difference in change of load on the front axle with the hitch fitted to not having it fitted. This change is then divided by the difference in change made by the trailer ball weight no WDH over the front axle load no trailer and expressed in a percentage. The standard gives the equation to work that out. They recommend a 50% figure for this percentage. It has nothing to do with tail droop as he says in the article. Another journo that wouldn't know if his pants were on fire. The other thing I take issue with is the statement that most caravan accidents are caused by WDH's. I call bs on that. Show us the data. I bet there is none, as investigated traffic accidents and the results of such investigations are rarely released to the public, and in most instances it would be impossible to determine what influence a WDH had or did not have on the outcome. All of this stuff is just peoples opinions which are like bums, everyone has one. The Article you posted in second spot was written by a bloke that even admitted he had never used a WDH. How the hell is he any sort of expert for gods sake. When he has driven the tens of thousands of kilometres that I have towing van's both with and without a WDH, then he just might be qualified to have an opinion on one.
Hi Greg...as I have previously said,these simply were screen shots of stuff that appeared on my computer.Never have I endorsed of questioned the validity of either of these articles,which simply were posted as a contribution to the discussion. My primary concern is to make members understand that a WDH does NOT alter towball weight...ever.Cheers
oldbloke said
07:04 PM Apr 22, 2021
Sorry Yobbo.
I stand corrected
Troll. Trouble maker. Argumentative.
But its 100% correct now. Unlike yourself mate.
Next time learn to read what HR shows you relating to how TBW can't be weighed on the jockey wheel when the van is connected to the tow ball of a car. Sheesh Its preferred to verbalising people and then starting an argument in an effort to save face.
yobarr said
07:10 PM Apr 22, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
Sorry Yobbo.
I stand corrected
Troll. Trouble maker. Argumentative.
But its 100% correct now. Unlike yourself mate.
Next time learn to read what HR shows you relating to how TBW can't be weighed on the jockey wheel when the van is connected to the tow ball of a car. Sheesh Its preferred to verbalising people and then starting an argument in an effort to save face.
Peter,Paul and Mary..."Where have all the flowers gone?" (When will they ever learn) Cheers
oldbloke said
07:25 PM Apr 22, 2021
And for how many months did you rant on about how this graphic and the people who posted it were saying that there was no TBW when the WDH was connected. Sheesh. Pretty hard to weigh the TBW if nothing is on the scale. Ha, Ha. How smart are you. Ha. Ha. Learn to read. Learn to analyse and think instead of non stop copy paste.
For how many months did you get it wrong? 6, 12? How many times did you miss quote honest members here? Dozens, or more 100s? Yet you are too weak to apologise.
Edit:
Yobbo, why don't you call HR and tell them their document is wrong. Tell them to add 220kg where the 0s are under the jockey even of it isn't on, or is hanging in mid air. ( because TBW never changes) Please document their response here mate. Ha, Ha.
-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 07:57:21 PM
Mass is being transferred to the end of the structure like in a building.
Each of the components are under a different stress.
The way the towbar is attached to the vehicle will have different stresses. Was it designed for these for these different stresses.
yobarr said
08:17 AM Apr 23, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
Putting aside the issue of the towball load.
Mass is being transferred to the end of the structure like in a building.
Each of the components are under a different stress.
The way the towbar is attached to the vehicle will have different stresses. Was it designed for these for these different stresses.
You are,of course,quite right.All a WDH does is create what is effectively a stiff-arm from the car's front axle,through the hitch point,to the van's axle group.All fine and dandy on nice flat roads,but can you imagine the stresses on ALL components when the vehicles pass over uneven surfaces,or even servo entrances.In extreme circumstances you can get a situation where all weight is carried by only two axle groups.As far as manufacturers saying that a WDH must be used above XXXkg,that is probably because they realise that the rear axle on their car is not really up to the task of carrying the extra weight imposed by the high towball weights,so they cover their rears.If anything awry happens,their "out" is "Oh,but you didn't use a WDH". Buying a suitable vehicle in the first place avoids the problem. Cheers
oldbloke said
09:01 AM Apr 23, 2021
oldbloke wrote:
And for how many months did you rant on about how this graphic and the people who posted it were saying that there was no TBW when the WDH was connected. Sheesh. Pretty hard to weigh the TBW if nothing is on the scale. Ha, Ha. How smart are you. Ha. Ha. Learn to read. Learn to analyse and think instead of non stop copy paste.
For how many months did you get it wrong? 6, 12? How many times did you miss quote honest members here? Dozens, or more 100s? Yet you are too weak to apologise.
Edit:
Yobbo, why don't you call HR and tell them their document is wrong. Tell them to add 220kg where the 0s are under the jockey even of it isn't on, or is hanging in mid air. ( because TBW never changes) Please document their response here mate. Ha, Ha.
-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 07:57:21 PM
How did you go there mate? Sent the email off yet? Dont forget to tell them to add 220kg where the 0s are?
Clarky 1 said
09:46 AM Apr 23, 2021
Well, I am surprised that this topic is still alive.
I missed yesterday as I was out of range of internet for most of it.
I do note that Yobarr has still not answered questions I asked back a couple of pages.
I also note that he is advising Greg1 to contact the author of publications that he (Yobarr) quoted in a blind attempt to support his argument. At the same time on the other hand, I note that he is not prepared to contact Hayman Reese and tell them that their weigh bridge publication is incorrect.
A very simple but interesting article was put up by Rob Bentaxle with the rear wheels being removed from the Oldsmobile Toronado which, after reading, I assumed that this may put paid to any argument. This wasn't the case. Maybe the Oldsmobile had a secret dolly wheel under the rear to hold it up which we weren't told about.
The OP, old bloke, has spent the last 24 hours defending his stance even after continual bombardment of screenshots taken from previous topics that we all have already seen. I also see that spell check on his computer is still correcting yobarr to yobbo. Mine does the same.
So with the start of a new day could we please have Yobarr explain to us how the steer axle of the tow vehicle weight increased and the van axle group weight increased as proven conclusively on a weigh bridge with the use of a WDH while as he claims, the Tow Ball Weight still remains the same. Can he explain that if his statement is correct then why doesn't the GCM of the vehicle and van show an increase in weight if, as he claims, the TBW remains when a WDH is connected.
Waiting....waiting...
Greg 1 said
10:13 AM Apr 23, 2021
To be fair to yobarr, he is correct here.
The actual downforce being exerted by the van onto the car doesn't change. Gravity remains the same. If it were possible to place a load cell under the drawbar without measuring some of the car's weight, we would see this is so.
Exactly like my analogy of the roof truss. You may have altered the way the load path is distributed but you still have the same load being applied. The walls are taking less load now we have the column in place as the column is taking a percentage, but the load is still the same. The roof hasn't suddenly lost weight just because we have added the column.
What the WDH does is just the same. It just shifts the load path a little so that the front axle of the car and to a lesser extent, the van's axle group, carry more of the load. The load still has not altered.
HR do not show a load on their chart simply because it is impossible to accurately measure this once the van is connected to the car.
I know that this can be a bit hard to get your head around but keep thinking of the roof truss and you will get the idea.
What I do not like is articles, that are written by someone who obviously has little idea, who quotes standards that they have little understanding of if they have read it at all, and making outlandish claims that have little basis in fact, being used to bolster an argument.
Gundog said
10:22 AM Apr 23, 2021
Clarky 1 wrote:
Well, I am surprised that this topic is still alive.
I missed yesterday as I was out of range of internet for most of it.
I do note that Yobarr has still not answered questions I asked back a couple of pages.
I also note that he is advising Greg1 to contact the author of publications that he (Yobarr) quoted in a blind attempt to support his argument. At the same time on the other hand, I note that he is not prepared to contact Hayman Reese and tell them that their weigh bridge publication is incorrect.
A very simple but interesting article was put up by Rob Bentaxle with the rear wheels being removed from the Oldsmobile Toronado which, after reading, I assumed that this may put paid to any argument. This wasn't the case. Maybe the Oldsmobile had a secret dolly wheel under the rear to hold it up which we weren't told about.
The OP, old bloke, has spent the last 24 hours defending his stance even after continual bombardment of screenshots taken from previous topics that we all have already seen. I also see that spell check on his computer is still correcting yobarr to yobbo. Mine does the same.
So with the start of a new day could we please have Yobarr explain to us how the steer axle of the tow vehicle weight increased and the van axle group weight increased as proven conclusively on a weigh bridge with the use of a WDH while as he claims, the Tow Ball Weight still remains the same. Can he explain that if his statement is correct then why doesn't the GCM of the vehicle and van show an increase in weight if, as he claims, the TBW remains when a WDH is connected.
Waiting....waiting...
Ding dong your wrong blind Freddy would understand that when the van is connected the towball weight becomes part of the tow vehicles weight therefore if the the front and rear axle don't exceed their individual weight limits then they cannot exceed the GVM, because there is no way your can weigh the ball after the van and tow vehicle are connected. In this configuration all that matters is GCM, and axle weights. The action of engaging a weight distridution system weight is distributed along chassis of the tow vehicle and caravan.
The part that most people fail to understand is when a van is connected to the tow vehicle and the front of the van and the rear of the tow vehicle drops, the actual towball weight has increased, the engaging of the WDH actually levels off both vehicles thus returning weight back to the axle groups, hense the small amount of weight returned to the vans axle group.
It is a nonsence argue about towball weight except when the caravan is unconnected and level.
Clarky 1 said
11:02 AM Apr 23, 2021
The weigh bridge is not a magic trick.
The WDH is not a magic wand.
When a WDH is connected the weight is removed or transferred or whatever you want to call it from the tow ball and distributed to the front wheels and the vans wheels.
The weight has now gone from the tow ball.
Although extremely exaggerated, Rob Bentaxles Oldsmobile with a WDH and the van clearly displays this.
Simple physics tells us all that the weight has to be removed from the tow ball if the other two axle groups weight increases when using a WDH.
oldbloke said
11:09 AM Apr 23, 2021
Greg 1 wrote:
To be fair to yobarr, he is correct here. The actual downforce being exerted by the van onto the car doesn't change. Gravity remains the same. If it were possible to place a load cell under the drawbar without measuring some of the car's weight, we would see this is so. Exactly like my analogy of the roof truss. You may have altered the way the load path is distributed but you still have the same load being applied. The walls are taking less load now we have the column in place as the column is taking a percentage, but the load is still the same. The roof hasn't suddenly lost weight just because we have added the column. What the WDH does is just the same. It just shifts the load path a little so that the front axle of the car and to a lesser extent, the van's axle group, carry more of the load. The load still has not altered. HR do not show a load on their chart simply because it is impossible to accurately measure this once the van is connected to the car. I know that this can be a bit hard to get your head around but keep thinking of the roof truss and you will get the idea. What I do not like is articles, that are written by someone who obviously has little idea, who quotes standards that they have little understanding of if they have read it at all, and making outlandish claims that have little basis in fact, being used to bolster an argument.
Yep, the problem still mains that because yobbo didn't understand the HR document he keeps verbalising members trying to say we think it disappears into thin air. ( remember yobbo, its a HR document, not one made up by a member) While yobbo continues to do this the argument/discussion will continue to be circular.
In addition it would appear he still can't add up.
Clarky 1 said
11:31 AM Apr 23, 2021
Hi old bloke,
Here is yet another informative article that once again does the maths for those that aren't able to work out that the TBW is transferred to the axles as previously stated.
It will also help you with your original enquiry, although I think your questions have been answered several times over in this topic.
I have stayed out of this discussion up till now as I gave up trying to convince others of my reasoning. This discussion is becoming more complex than it needs to be. Gregs analogy of a prop under a roof is not apt because in our case there is no additional support introduced by a WDH
Just keep your eye on the weights that the scales tell us.
1 The WDH reduces the total weight born on the tug wheels. This is simply because it reduces the down force on the tow bar by its lifting action.
2 The van wheels now reflect this reduction by an increase in weight. That means that there in no overall increase in van weight.
3 This same lifting action also reduces the weight born by the rear axle of the tug and increases that on the front axle.
That's right. #3. I am in agreeance with him. See the "bold" section.
Hi Neil...you may be interested to note that the words that I have highlighted in red are EXACTLY what I have been saying all along? Does this mean that you've finally realised that I DO know what I'm talking about? Cheers
So does everybody now agree that a WDH does not change ball download?
Which of course it doesn't.
For the hundredth time,NO weight is removed from the towball when a WDH is tensioned...NONE.However,if you could again ask your question in an unambiguous manner, I will be more than happy to help you understand weights.Cheers
Neil,could I respectfully ask you to cease using an incorrect user name when responding to my posts? It takes no effort to be civil.Cheers
Towball weight of a hitched van cannot be measured at all...jockey wheel or anywhere else.
So Yobbo, are you going to stop verbalising me. In bold so you can read it. I have never said it changed. Show me where I said that. If fact your insulting to suggest it. You did not understand the graphic from HR.
Show me where I said that.
Show me where I said that.
Show me where I said that.
This may well confuse you,but if towball weight has been moved,it is clear that the weight on the towball has changed.Are you sure you're not simply being mischievous,as little you post on THIS topic makes sense? Usually your posts are interesting,but you appear well and truly lost here? Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 06:31:07 PM
Transferred or moved or for that mater distributed as i stated many times is not changed in the context you are using.
Troll
Trouble maker.
Argumentive.
You got the HR graphic wrong for months and can't admit it, can you? Now your trying to save face.
(,can't face the truth mob is now quirming with excuses)
and back tracking ,
The whole argument has been on whether a WDH removes weight from the tow ball.
the answer is No
now its changing to (I never said )
what a laugh.
I'm out of here .
I know you won't , but suggest you do the same .
Regards Orid
Orid, you got it wrong again mate. Try to get something right just for once. Try reading the OP. (above)
You blokes really do look silly.
The word you seek probably is "argumentative",but all I ever do is present detailed advice on weights to help those with little,or no,understanding of same.If ever I post something that I am not 100% sure of,I will preface it with something along the lines of "I believe",or similar.STILL you seem not to accept that TBW cannot be "Transferred" or "moved" without that weight being taken off the towball? If that weight is "moved" or "transferred" simple logic would dictate that the weight on the towball has changed? A WDH does NOT change towball weight...ever.Period.Cheers
Hi Greg...as I have previously said,these simply were screen shots of stuff that appeared on my computer.Never have I endorsed of questioned the validity of either of these articles,which simply were posted as a contribution to the discussion. My primary concern is to make members understand that a WDH does NOT alter towball weight...ever.Cheers
Sorry Yobbo.
I stand corrected
Troll.
Trouble maker.
Argumentative.
But its 100% correct now. Unlike yourself mate.
Next time learn to read what HR shows you relating to how TBW can't be weighed on the jockey wheel when the van is connected to the tow ball of a car. Sheesh Its preferred to verbalising people and then starting an argument in an effort to save face.
Peter,Paul and Mary..."Where have all the flowers gone?" (When will they ever learn) Cheers
And for how many months did you rant on about how this graphic and the people who posted it were saying that there was no TBW when the WDH was connected. Sheesh. Pretty hard to weigh the TBW if nothing is on the scale. Ha, Ha. How smart are you. Ha. Ha. Learn to read. Learn to analyse and think instead of non stop copy paste.
For how many months did you get it wrong? 6, 12? How many times did you miss quote honest members here? Dozens, or more 100s? Yet you are too weak to apologise.
Edit:
Yobbo, why don't you call HR and tell them their document is wrong. Tell them to add 220kg where the 0s are under the jockey even of it isn't on, or is hanging in mid air. ( because TBW never changes) Please document their response here mate. Ha, Ha.
-- Edited by oldbloke on Thursday 22nd of April 2021 07:57:21 PM
Putting aside the issue of the towball load.
Mass is being transferred to the end of the structure like in a building.
Each of the components are under a different stress.
The way the towbar is attached to the vehicle will have different stresses. Was it designed for these for these different stresses.
You are,of course,quite right.All a WDH does is create what is effectively a stiff-arm from the car's front axle,through the hitch point,to the van's axle group.All fine and dandy on nice flat roads,but can you imagine the stresses on ALL components when the vehicles pass over uneven surfaces,or even servo entrances.In extreme circumstances you can get a situation where all weight is carried by only two axle groups.As far as manufacturers saying that a WDH must be used above XXXkg,that is probably because they realise that the rear axle on their car is not really up to the task of carrying the extra weight imposed by the high towball weights,so they cover their rears.If anything awry happens,their "out" is "Oh,but you didn't use a WDH". Buying a suitable vehicle in the first place avoids the problem. Cheers
How did you go there mate? Sent the email off yet? Dont forget to tell them to add 220kg where the 0s are?
Well, I am surprised that this topic is still alive.
I missed yesterday as I was out of range of internet for most of it.
I do note that Yobarr has still not answered questions I asked back a couple of pages.
I also note that he is advising Greg1 to contact the author of publications that he (Yobarr) quoted in a blind attempt to support his argument.
At the same time on the other hand, I note that he is not prepared to contact Hayman Reese and tell them that their weigh bridge publication is incorrect.
A very simple but interesting article was put up by Rob Bentaxle with the rear wheels being removed from the Oldsmobile Toronado which, after reading, I assumed that this may put paid to any argument.
This wasn't the case. Maybe the Oldsmobile had a secret dolly wheel under the rear to hold it up which we weren't told about.
The OP, old bloke, has spent the last 24 hours defending his stance even after continual bombardment of screenshots taken from previous topics that we all have already seen. I also see that spell check on his computer is still correcting yobarr to yobbo. Mine does the same.
So with the start of a new day could we please have Yobarr explain to us how the steer axle of the tow vehicle weight increased and the van axle group weight increased as proven conclusively on a weigh bridge with the use of a WDH while as he claims, the Tow Ball Weight still remains the same.
Can he explain that if his statement is correct then why doesn't the GCM of the vehicle and van show an increase in weight if, as he claims, the TBW remains when a WDH is connected.
Waiting....waiting...
Ding dong your wrong blind Freddy would understand that when the van is connected the towball weight becomes part of the tow vehicles weight therefore if the the front and rear axle don't exceed their individual weight limits then they cannot exceed the GVM, because there is no way your can weigh the ball after the van and tow vehicle are connected. In this configuration all that matters is GCM, and axle weights. The action of engaging a weight distridution system weight is distributed along chassis of the tow vehicle and caravan.
The part that most people fail to understand is when a van is connected to the tow vehicle and the front of the van and the rear of the tow vehicle drops, the actual towball weight has increased, the engaging of the WDH actually levels off both vehicles thus returning weight back to the axle groups, hense the small amount of weight returned to the vans axle group.
It is a nonsence argue about towball weight except when the caravan is unconnected and level.
The WDH is not a magic wand.
When a WDH is connected the weight is removed or transferred or whatever you want to call it from the tow ball and distributed to the front wheels and the vans wheels.
The weight has now gone from the tow ball.
Although extremely exaggerated, Rob Bentaxles Oldsmobile with a WDH and the van clearly displays this.
Simple physics tells us all that the weight has to be removed from the tow ball if the other two axle groups weight increases when using a WDH.
Yep, the problem still mains that because yobbo didn't understand the HR document he keeps verbalising members trying to say we think it disappears into thin air. ( remember yobbo, its a HR document, not one made up by a member) While yobbo continues to do this the argument/discussion will continue to be circular.
In addition it would appear he still can't add up.
Here is yet another informative article that once again does the maths for those that aren't able to work out that the TBW is transferred to the axles as previously stated.
It will also help you with your original enquiry, although I think your questions have been answered several times over in this topic.
caravan.hemax.com/Reviews/3118/How_to_weigh_and_measure_your_rig
I have stayed out of this discussion up till now as I gave up trying to convince others of my reasoning. This discussion is becoming more complex than it needs to be. Gregs analogy of a prop under a roof is not apt because in our case there is no additional support introduced by a WDH
Just keep your eye on the weights that the scales tell us.
1 The WDH reduces the total weight born on the tug wheels. This is simply because it reduces the down force on the tow bar by its lifting action.
2 The van wheels now reflect this reduction by an increase in weight. That means that there in no overall increase in van weight.
3 This same lifting action also reduces the weight born by the rear axle of the tug and increases that on the front axle.
Alan