I think Linux will only ever attain widespread appeal if it is taught in school. Even then, Linux will probably never appeal to certain computer users. To see why, you only need to visit the Linux, Windows, and Apple forums.
A Linux user explains computer problems in terms of bits and bytes. A Mac user reports the same problems in terms of beeps and balloons.
A tech support session with a Linux user would be akin to a doctor explaining his patient's symptoms to another doctor. A tech support session with a Mac user would be like a veterinarian interrogating a hamster.
A good observation Dorian, but don't think the aim of linux is to attain wide appeal, it's all about freedom of choice, ease of use, the ability to experiment and use reliable safe systems which are state of the art, stable and continuously developing. Already linux has more than 80% of the smart phone market, well over 50% of tablets, more than 80% of world servers and 100% of super computers. It's used by the biggest corporations and scientific institutions on the planet. Over the next year there will be a number of linux distro's for tablets and phones coming onto the market, which are all interactive with other devices including pc's.
There are more and more people coming to linux forums asking for help installing distro's because of the looming shut down of XP support in 2 weeks and their reluctance to be economically locked into, and at the whim of Microsoft for the rest of their lives. Especially considering the debacle of microsoft releases since xp, which is still costing them time and money. Now they have a choice and those that take it, seem very happy. Not every one will and that's the beauty of it all, until linux came along, everyone was locked into the duopoly with no choice. Now they have almost unlimited choice, which can only be beneficial for the future of computing.
The only ones I've come across that can't get to grips with linux very quickly, are those who don't really want to, all they want is an excuse to belittle difference. Like any area of endevour in life, there are those who will do everything they can to denounce something they may not be intellectually capable of understanding. Personally I read all information by others that interests me and even if I disagree, would not denounce, abuse or belittle their comments. They may not suit me, but they may suit others and it's the same with linux. It may not suit some, but it certainly suits a growing number who like change and creative development in their computing lives.
-- Edited by native pepper on Sunday 30th of March 2014 11:23:49 AM
dorian said
02:58 PM Mar 30, 2014
Believe me, I'm on your side. In fact I hope to switch to Linux one day, but I'll still be multibooting DOS/Win9X/WinXP.
As for the prevalence of Linux, I agree it's everywhere, but it exists in a form that users never have to see. For example, my ADSL modem has an embedded Linux server, but it's transparent to the user. I can see it if I Telnet or FTP into it, but otherwise it's just a dedicated OS that doesn't require any tinkering. Similarly, my Aldi GPS has an embedded Windows CE OS while my brother's old Navman had a Linux OS. In both cases the end user only sees the GUI, not the OS underneath. In fact I have hacked my GPS and turned it into a pocket Windows PC, but that's not something that many people would do. My Kobo E-book reader also has an embedded Linux OS, but once again it is transparent to the user. You say that the coming year promises Linux distros for phones and tablets, but these will undoubtedly be delivered as firmware updates for embedded OS-es, and, as such, these would also be transparent to the end user.
As for Linux servers, the closest that most users would get to one would be when they connect to a web site, and all they would see would be the site's home page, not the OS that is powering the site.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, even if you have 10 devices with embedded Linux OS-es, this doesn't make you a Linux user, nor does it make it any easier to transition to Linux from Windows or Mac. I don't doubt that there may be more interest in Linux as a consequence of the impending XP support shutdown, but this was undoubtedly the case when Microsoft said goodbye to Win9x.
I really do hope that this thread succeeds, and that GNs can dump Microsoft and Apple forever, but I can't see it happening.
native pepper said
05:00 PM Mar 30, 2014
I started of dual booting with xp and vista, took about 6 months before realising was only using windows for photoshop and corel draw for our promotional work. Was complaining about the cost of Photoshop and corel, to a business friend of mine, asked how his small business could afford the never ending costs involved to produce the work he did. He showed me what the gimp could do, introduced me to openshot, blender, inkscape, scribus and Latex, which is what the best graphic studios use. Since then have been completely satisfied and produce work which is of the same standard as seen on tv or movies, which anyone can do.
Your right, the majority only ever see the GUI and never what makes it all work. But with linux you can do that so easily, even change to a different Gui and interface of your choice, or even blend them together. There's is a distro called bedrock linux, which is designed so you can load and run any number of distro's in the same box. It's not a virtual emulator, but a full blown integration system which allows you to run any number of distro's at the same time, but on different monitors. Got a friend playing with it and she has 6 running at once, all using the same CPU and system. She has huge RAM and you can also use any app or package from any distro in any of them, which completely opens up and whole new world. Then there's Kali linux, which as the state of the art security distro. With that you can foli any attack or attempted intrusion, along with being able to look at someones iP address and hack any proprietary system at will and all automatically.
Posted the links as to where linux is in the world, just to give people an idea of the difference between what they think and the facts, not to point score. Most people don't realise their new, tv's, radio's, car, fridge, stove computer systems are linux.
I think most people would be shocked if they knew the difference between linux based servers and proprietary ones, when it comes to security reliability and stability.
Success can only be gauged individually when it comes to most things in life. As for this thread, it will be successful if it shows one or two others there's a completely different computing world out there which is friendly, safe, secure and allows them to use and develop their computing to what ever state they want, all for free.
The people in my life didn't even notice things had changed, just told them it was a new interface and where to find the equivalent to what they used in windows. Never had a complaint nor any problems, as they did their own exploring and learning after a short time.
If you're just someone who browses the net and does little other work, then there'd be no need to change. But if you do DP, photography, audio, vid and want the best there is, then linux is that and free.
KevinC said
08:36 AM Mar 31, 2014
I like Dorian's reference to transparency. I believe that with the uptake of devices and the huge demand and supply of applications (apps) for all those devices, the role of the computer as we've known it will change radically. The phones, tablets and on-board devices in vehicles will take over. We'll no longer need a desktop running Windows or Mac, or Linux but just have a device running whatever. The users will neither know nor care about the operating system. Windows 8.1 is, I believe, a sign that traditional computing will become unpopular in favour of a desktop with a host of icons that we select when we want to do something. There are some of us who want to still use the computer the old way, but will the majority? I don't think so. I still need Windows on a computer to run editing software that I've purchased. But that's all. The iPhone, Android phone, iPad and Android tablet can do everything else. And I still like a big screen and a mouse, but I'm getting used to the new style of computing. So if a user doesn't have special software needs, and just needs access to the applications of their choice (like Internet access), why would they spend money on an operating system like Windows when there's a host of them available free? Before anyone takes offense at what I've written, this isn't a fight, I don't have any particular barrow to push, I just think the times are changing towards the transparent operating systems that Dorian mentioned.
-- Edited by KevinC on Monday 31st of March 2014 08:36:42 AM
_wombat_ said
08:13 AM Apr 18, 2014
Hi Guys, don't think I have forgotten this topic, its just that I have been away without int access, now home again for a few days then off for 10 days, after that I will have to get into the Linux stuff that has been mentioned here.
I have the Slako disk working but that is as far as I have got, I keep running out of time.
Thanks for your help guys, from a newbie to Linux
oldbobsbus said
08:20 AM Apr 18, 2014
_wombat_ wrote:
Hi Guys, don't think I have forgotten this topic, its just that I have been away without int access, now home again for a few days then off for 10 days, after that I will have to get into the Linux stuff that has been mentioned here.
I have the Slako disk working but that is as far as I have got, I keep running out of time.
Thanks for your help guys, from a newbie to Linux
Like you I have been busy but I did get a chance to have a look at the disc you sent me and to be honest I was very impressed with it, it was a lot more user friendly that any previous version I have tried, I am now thinking I will throw a different HDD in the puter and install it and see how easy it is to get things working on it..
The only thing I did find was that all the pop up messages are in Geek language and a bit hard to decipher.
_wombat_ said
08:27 AM Apr 18, 2014
oldbobsbus wrote:
_wombat_ wrote:
Hi Guys, don't think I have forgotten this topic, its just that I have been away without int access, now home again for a few days then off for 10 days, after that I will have to get into the Linux stuff that has been mentioned here.
I have the Slako disk working but that is as far as I have got, I keep running out of time.
Thanks for your help guys, from a newbie to Linux
Like you I have been busy but I did get a chance to have a look at the disc you sent me and to be honest I was very impressed with it, it was a lot more user friendly that any previous version I have tried, I am now thinking I will throw a different HDD in the puter and install it and see how easy it is to get things working on it..
The only thing I did find was that all the pop up messages are in Geek language and a bit hard to decipher.
sounds like you have got into it more than I have at this time, all I know is that it works on my old xp laptop, but for some silly reason I cannot get my other 2 Dell laptops to start from a DVD, something I need to work on later, I'll need to look into the bios a bit more.
oldbobsbus said
08:39 AM Apr 18, 2014
You most likely need to change the boot sequence in the Dells, I know many puters I have worked on defaulted to booting from the HDD as the first option.
_wombat_ said
08:45 AM Apr 18, 2014
oldbobsbus wrote:
You most likely need to change the boot sequence in the Dells, I know many puters I have worked on defaulted to booting from the HDD as the first option.
I did try that but it kept booting to Hdd as you say, that is after I have change the boot sequence, Dell semms to kick itself back to the Hdd.
I'll try it again later, would love to try my new Dell Alienware with Linux
oldbobsbus said
08:57 AM Apr 18, 2014
Dells are a bit like that..lol
Maybe take the HDD out and see what happens..
03_Troopy said
03:01 PM Nov 25, 2014
Well I know this is dragging up an old thread, and with many of the contributors no longer here, but I have been playing around with various releases of Linux Mint. I have tried it on both an old desktop computer and a not quite as old Toshiba Laptop that originally had Window Vista on it. The latest I am playing with is Linux Mint 17 Cinnamon, and I am convert. Although there are some problems with certain software not being released in Linux (Navdesk Navman GPS updater) I have found that It works very well in most other areas. I have even got some " windows only" software running using the Wine windows environment support. The thing is, it boots up and runs so much quicker, and has a far smaller footprint than the old windoze.
I love Linux and have been using Ubuntu for years. Garmin GPS updater doesn't work on it either but everything else does I need.
The Phantom said
11:47 PM Nov 25, 2014
Troopy
Mint ships with GParted for partitioning your HD.
I run WindowsXP alongside Mint16 so I can utilise some of the Windows software that won't run seamlessly in Linux. SketchUp is a case in point. Even with Wine I could not get it to function properly. Running it in XP solves the problem.
I kept the Windows partition to about 16Gb on the HD, that was plenty for what I need.
The Phantom
03_Troopy said
08:32 AM Nov 26, 2014
Yep it does Phantom, but I have a desktop with XP and another laptop with win8 on it, and if all else fails I have the original HDD from the old lappy to fall back on, although Vista is running a bit slow on it. Actually I partitioned the new HDD for the old lappy so that I can try out some other Linux flavours as well. Cheers.
Mattt said
04:44 PM Apr 11, 2015
Hi all
I thought I'd dust off this thread again as Dee and I are new around here and I've been trawling the Techies' Corner threads and came upon it. Thing is, I happen to have been a Linux specialist for decades - both for work and also personally...
Anyways, we're going to be leaning on you guys in due course as we go through the process of (to put it extremely briefly) procuring a bus and hitting the road permanently so I'd be more than happy to give a little back before we even start
Soooo, if any of y'all need some expert GNU / Linux assistance just holler!
In case anyone's interested, I run Arch Linux on my personal desktops / laptops, Debian on our servers and Ubuntu (Mythbuntu, to be exact) on our media network machines. As a web app and business systems developer, I have run Internet servers for years - so I also know a lot of different GNU / Linux software and systems.
I'm happy to help wherever I can.
Santa said
06:18 PM Apr 11, 2015
Evening Matt, I have a 5 year old desk top with XP installed that I retired last year.
Have been contemplating installing a Linux OS as a trial to see what its all about.
At the moment I am running 8.1 on a couple of machines, I use MS Office, in particular Outlook and Word quite a bit, run a couple of specialist programs and use the machines for general internet use.
I'm pretty computer savvy but not exactly a guru.
Any thoughts on what I could try as far as Linux is concerned?
Mattt said
06:31 PM Apr 11, 2015
Hey Santa,
Whenever I'm setting up a Linux machine for a new or non-technically-inclined Linux user, I go with Ubuntu
Being only 5 years old, I'd say XP was only installed on it as a legacy thing - 5 years ago, Windoze 7 had been available for a year or so - so I'd not imagine any performance issues to prevail...
Santa said
11:16 PM Apr 11, 2015
Your correct re the age thing Matt, been happily using XP since about 2002, only reason I upgraded!!! was because of the OS no longer being supported and suggested potential security issues.
Have had more minor niggles with 8.1 in 12 months than I had with XP in about 13 years.
Can you point me to a guide for installing and setting up Ubuntu?
It's a long document, but you'll only need about a paragraph's worth. In short, download ISO (DVD image), burn ISO to a disk, boot from disk and follow some *very* easy prompts.
It's a far easier / faster install than a Windoze one
You'll be left with a full system (including Libre Office) which is incredibly easy to use, but will need a few moments to get "the hang" of. If you have any difficulty at all, just Google for "ubuntu <your question here>". Or, of course, ask here and I won't be far away...
You can probably directly replace M$ Office for Libre. Anything Internet related is no drama on Ubuntu. Later, I'll talk you through Wine (a Windoze emulator (well, not really - but think of it as one anyways)) to run the specialist apps you mentioned, or VirtualBox so you can run them in Windoze (yup, XP ) itself... in a window...
A good observation Dorian, but don't think the aim of linux is to attain wide appeal, it's all about freedom of choice, ease of use, the ability to experiment and use reliable safe systems which are state of the art, stable and continuously developing. Already linux has more than 80% of the smart phone market, well over 50% of tablets, more than 80% of world servers and 100% of super computers. It's used by the biggest corporations and scientific institutions on the planet. Over the next year there will be a number of linux distro's for tablets and phones coming onto the market, which are all interactive with other devices including pc's.
There are more and more people coming to linux forums asking for help installing distro's because of the looming shut down of XP support in 2 weeks and their reluctance to be economically locked into, and at the whim of Microsoft for the rest of their lives. Especially considering the debacle of microsoft releases since xp, which is still costing them time and money. Now they have a choice and those that take it, seem very happy. Not every one will and that's the beauty of it all, until linux came along, everyone was locked into the duopoly with no choice. Now they have almost unlimited choice, which can only be beneficial for the future of computing.
The only ones I've come across that can't get to grips with linux very quickly, are those who don't really want to, all they want is an excuse to belittle difference. Like any area of endevour in life, there are those who will do everything they can to denounce something they may not be intellectually capable of understanding. Personally I read all information by others that interests me and even if I disagree, would not denounce, abuse or belittle their comments. They may not suit me, but they may suit others and it's the same with linux. It may not suit some, but it certainly suits a growing number who like change and creative development in their computing lives.
-- Edited by native pepper on Sunday 30th of March 2014 11:23:49 AM
As for the prevalence of Linux, I agree it's everywhere, but it exists in a form that users never have to see. For example, my ADSL modem has an embedded Linux server, but it's transparent to the user. I can see it if I Telnet or FTP into it, but otherwise it's just a dedicated OS that doesn't require any tinkering. Similarly, my Aldi GPS has an embedded Windows CE OS while my brother's old Navman had a Linux OS. In both cases the end user only sees the GUI, not the OS underneath. In fact I have hacked my GPS and turned it into a pocket Windows PC, but that's not something that many people would do. My Kobo E-book reader also has an embedded Linux OS, but once again it is transparent to the user. You say that the coming year promises Linux distros for phones and tablets, but these will undoubtedly be delivered as firmware updates for embedded OS-es, and, as such, these would also be transparent to the end user.
As for Linux servers, the closest that most users would get to one would be when they connect to a web site, and all they would see would be the site's home page, not the OS that is powering the site.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, even if you have 10 devices with embedded Linux OS-es, this doesn't make you a Linux user, nor does it make it any easier to transition to Linux from Windows or Mac. I don't doubt that there may be more interest in Linux as a consequence of the impending XP support shutdown, but this was undoubtedly the case when Microsoft said goodbye to Win9x.
I really do hope that this thread succeeds, and that GNs can dump Microsoft and Apple forever, but I can't see it happening.
Your right, the majority only ever see the GUI and never what makes it all work. But with linux you can do that so easily, even change to a different Gui and interface of your choice, or even blend them together. There's is a distro called bedrock linux, which is designed so you can load and run any number of distro's in the same box. It's not a virtual emulator, but a full blown integration system which allows you to run any number of distro's at the same time, but on different monitors. Got a friend playing with it and she has 6 running at once, all using the same CPU and system. She has huge RAM and you can also use any app or package from any distro in any of them, which completely opens up and whole new world. Then there's Kali linux, which as the state of the art security distro. With that you can foli any attack or attempted intrusion, along with being able to look at someones iP address and hack any proprietary system at will and all automatically.
Posted the links as to where linux is in the world, just to give people an idea of the difference between what they think and the facts, not to point score. Most people don't realise their new, tv's, radio's, car, fridge, stove computer systems are linux.
I think most people would be shocked if they knew the difference between linux based servers and proprietary ones, when it comes to security reliability and stability.
Success can only be gauged individually when it comes to most things in life. As for this thread, it will be successful if it shows one or two others there's a completely different computing world out there which is friendly, safe, secure and allows them to use and develop their computing to what ever state they want, all for free.
The people in my life didn't even notice things had changed, just told them it was a new interface and where to find the equivalent to what they used in windows. Never had a complaint nor any problems, as they did their own exploring and learning after a short time.
If you're just someone who browses the net and does little other work, then there'd be no need to change. But if you do DP, photography, audio, vid and want the best there is, then linux is that and free.
I like Dorian's reference to transparency. I believe that with the uptake of devices and the huge demand and supply of applications (apps) for all those devices, the role of the computer as we've known it will change radically. The phones, tablets and on-board devices in vehicles will take over. We'll no longer need a desktop running Windows or Mac, or Linux but just have a device running whatever. The users will neither know nor care about the operating system.
Windows 8.1 is, I believe, a sign that traditional computing will become unpopular in favour of a desktop with a host of icons that we select when we want to do something. There are some of us who want to still use the computer the old way, but will the majority? I don't think so.
I still need Windows on a computer to run editing software that I've purchased. But that's all. The iPhone, Android phone, iPad and Android tablet can do everything else. And I still like a big screen and a mouse, but I'm getting used to the new style of computing.
So if a user doesn't have special software needs, and just needs access to the applications of their choice (like Internet access), why would they spend money on an operating system like Windows when there's a host of them available free?
Before anyone takes offense at what I've written, this isn't a fight, I don't have any particular barrow to push, I just think the times are changing towards the transparent operating systems that Dorian mentioned.
-- Edited by KevinC on Monday 31st of March 2014 08:36:42 AM
Hi Guys, don't think I have forgotten this topic, its just that I have been away without int access, now home again for a few days then off for 10 days, after that I will have to get into the Linux stuff that has been mentioned here.
I have the Slako disk working but that is as far as I have got, I keep running out of time.
Thanks for your help guys, from a newbie to Linux
Like you I have been busy but I did get a chance to have a look at the disc you sent me and to be honest I was very impressed with it, it was a lot more user friendly that any previous version I have tried, I am now thinking I will throw a different HDD in the puter and install it and see how easy it is to get things working on it..
The only thing I did find was that all the pop up messages are in Geek language and a bit hard to decipher.
sounds like you have got into it more than I have at this time, all I know is that it works on my old xp laptop, but for some silly reason I cannot get my other 2 Dell laptops to start from a DVD, something I need to work on later, I'll need to look into the bios a bit more.
I did try that but it kept booting to Hdd as you say, that is after I have change the boot sequence, Dell semms to kick itself back to the Hdd.
I'll try it again later, would love to try my new Dell Alienware with Linux
Maybe take the HDD out and see what happens..
Well I know this is dragging up an old thread, and with many of the contributors no longer here, but I have been playing around with various releases of Linux Mint. I have tried it on both an old desktop computer and a not quite as old Toshiba Laptop that originally had Window Vista on it. The latest I am playing with is Linux Mint 17 Cinnamon, and I am convert. Although there are some problems with certain software not being released in Linux (Navdesk Navman GPS updater) I have found that It works very well in most other areas. I have even got some " windows only" software running using the Wine windows environment support. The thing is, it boots up and runs so much quicker, and has a far smaller footprint than the old windoze.
I'm pretty happy with it
I love Linux and have been using Ubuntu for years. Garmin GPS updater doesn't work on it either but everything else does I need.
Troopy
Mint ships with GParted for partitioning your HD.
I run WindowsXP alongside Mint16 so I can utilise some of the Windows software that won't run seamlessly in Linux. SketchUp is a case in point. Even with Wine I could not get it to function properly. Running it in XP solves the problem.
I kept the Windows partition to about 16Gb on the HD, that was plenty for what I need.
The Phantom
I thought I'd dust off this thread again as Dee and I are new around here and I've been trawling the Techies' Corner threads and came upon it. Thing is, I happen to have been a Linux specialist for decades - both for work and also personally...
Anyways, we're going to be leaning on you guys in due course as we go through the process of (to put it extremely briefly) procuring a bus and hitting the road permanently so I'd be more than happy to give a little back before we even start
Soooo, if any of y'all need some expert GNU / Linux assistance just holler!
In case anyone's interested, I run Arch Linux on my personal desktops / laptops, Debian on our servers and Ubuntu (Mythbuntu, to be exact) on our media network machines. As a web app and business systems developer, I have run Internet servers for years - so I also know a lot of different GNU / Linux software and systems.
I'm happy to help wherever I can.
Evening Matt, I have a 5 year old desk top with XP installed that I retired last year.
Have been contemplating installing a Linux OS as a trial to see what its all about.
At the moment I am running 8.1 on a couple of machines, I use MS Office, in particular Outlook and Word quite a bit, run a couple of specialist programs and use the machines for general internet use.
I'm pretty computer savvy but not exactly a guru.
Any thoughts on what I could try as far as Linux is concerned?
Whenever I'm setting up a Linux machine for a new or non-technically-inclined Linux user, I go with Ubuntu
Being only 5 years old, I'd say XP was only installed on it as a legacy thing - 5 years ago, Windoze 7 had been available for a year or so - so I'd not imagine any performance issues to prevail...
Your correct re the age thing Matt, been happily using XP since about 2002, only reason I upgraded!!! was because of the OS no longer being supported and suggested potential security issues.
Have had more minor niggles with 8.1 in 12 months than I had with XP in about 13 years.
Can you point me to a guide for installing and setting up Ubuntu?
help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation
It's a long document, but you'll only need about a paragraph's worth. In short, download ISO (DVD image), burn ISO to a disk, boot from disk and follow some *very* easy prompts.
It's a far easier / faster install than a Windoze one
You'll be left with a full system (including Libre Office) which is incredibly easy to use, but will need a few moments to get "the hang" of. If you have any difficulty at all, just Google for "ubuntu <your question here>". Or, of course, ask here and I won't be far away...
You can probably directly replace M$ Office for Libre. Anything Internet related is no drama on Ubuntu. Later, I'll talk you through Wine (a Windoze emulator (well, not really - but think of it as one anyways)) to run the specialist apps you mentioned, or VirtualBox so you can run them in Windoze (yup, XP