But DD, is there boxing on racing day?
Well, there's cricket on boxing day, sailing on boxing day, why not boxing on racing day?
Disco Duck said
08:58 PM Dec 26, 2009
LOL Onya Jimricho!!!
Disco Duck said
09:01 PM Dec 26, 2009
I have no problems with that Granny...........we always have boxing on racing day!!
There has NEVER been a Melbourne Cup or Adelaide Cup day that I haven't had a fight! LOL
Basil Faulty said
10:12 PM Dec 26, 2009
dave06 wrote:
are these rules applicable australia wide Basil
as to your previous question all I can see with my untrained eye is the very light cabling!
Dave yes and cryptically light
oldtrack123 said
10:50 PM Dec 26, 2009
Basil Faulty wrote:
The device pictured on the web page is the prototype? It has to be....If it's a productoin jobby then it's illegal, now work out why. The answer is staring you in the face...
Hi Basil I know my eyesightv is poor But I see no problems with the picture except It should not be laying on the ground,But that is an advertising thing thing& nothing to do with approval. It has: An approved 10amp plug , short lead between it & protection box, box is of an approved weatherproof design., combination 10amp DOUBLE pole olcb & RCD, Approved 15amp socket. Cable appears to be 10amp rated cable for that length
Have I missed something?? Possibly the approval number but how do you know its not stamped or affixed to the box??? Suely you are not suggesting that it does not have approval??
These comments based on this site Bigger better pics
These rules are out of date Best find the latest!!
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 09:57:58 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 10:01:46 PM
PeterD said
12:35 AM Dec 27, 2009
DeBe wrote:
Un fortunately some regulations dont cover real life out in the country, I have 2 x 50Meter 15 Amp extension cords, with 10Amp plugs on them. The reason being I need to run 100Meters to run an electric Jackhammer to dig holes in rock, the reason for 15Amp cords is less voltage drop over the long distance. So un fortunately my leads are not legal thats life. Daryl
Daryl
You do not have 2 15 A cords. The plugs you have installed on the cable make it a 10A cord. The Australian standards do not refer to cables by current carrying capacity. They refer to cable by it's cross section area.
You possibly have 2 cables constructed from 1.5 squ mm cable (which is colloquially known as 15 A cable.) If you do then these cables are not legal. The maximum length a 10A cable constructed from that cable is 35 metres.
The other possibility is that your cables were constructed correctly from 2.5 squ mm cable. Using 2.5 mm cable you can construct a 10A cable up to 60 metres in length. If you use 4.0 squ mm cable you can construct a 10A cable up to 100 metres in length.
Have a look at the table I have attached. It was copied from the Australian standards. Column 1 lists the sizes of plug available and thus the maximum current carrying capacity of a power cable constructed using those plugs. Column 2 lists the sizes of cable available. Column 3 lists the maxim permissible length of a cable you can construct with a particular plug and cable size.
Forget about talking about the current carrying capacity of a particular wire and talk about the maximum carrying capacity of the completed cable. The current carrying capacity that is marked on the reel of cable you cut your length from is only the maximum current of a short cable you can construct from it. Once you start constructing long cables you must use thicker cable to keep within the maximum permissible voltage drop with that cable. The requirement for thicker cables is one (and not all) of the reasons for not joining cables for portable and mobile dwellings.
Ok yes the device would appear to have electrical approval however it does not meet the SAA standards required for CARAVAN electrical leads.
Anomalies of this kind occur because the person doing the testing does not cross reference between the requirements of the various standards. I could be wrong but I sent an Email last night outlining my concerns to Standards Australia. They will no doubt take my concerns on board and I guess if they deem it necessary will issue a product recal and have it remanufactured in accordance with the existing standard for CARAVAN extension leads. Or they may choose to give it an exemption depending I guess on how easy it is to bribe the inspectors .
Now have a look at your approved caravan lead and this device; what is the visible difference? Oh yes see it? Now this device may be intended for use around the home however as it is advertised as a CARAVAN lead it also has to comply with the relevant standard for such leads.
So it's really not a safety issue the thing will work as well as any other, just one of those little technicalities that means for example why you cannot legally use any 15 amp lead for a Caravan, legally it has to be tagged as approved for caravan use with the statement that it is illegal to remove the tag which begs the question why do the tags come so flimsily made, they fall off after laying in wet grass.
I'd like to thank Oldtrack, his devout pedanticicm of the LEGALITIES has caused me to do the investigation that has shown up this oversight, I think if we are discussing the legalities this point is valid.
So Bas wonders how often we all have our leads checked and tagged by a licenced electrician?
-- Edited by Basil Faulty on Sunday 27th of December 2009 08:38:28 AM
oldtrack123 said
10:31 AM Dec 27, 2009
Hi Peter D Your post is spot on re cable size ,run length etc I have alluded to that in a couple of posts But am in enough strife @ the moment, trying to convince some of the inaccuracies of their statements. You will ,no doubt, be subject of similar crititism "How dare you suggest that what we are doing is wrong""
oldtrack123 said
10:47 AM Dec 27, 2009
Basil Faulty wrote:
Ok yes the device would appear to have electrical approval however it does not meet the SAA standards required for CARAVAN electrical leads.
Hi Basil
I think you are getting desperate & grasping @ straws
For a start it is not a caravan extension lead It is an ADAPTER For use when ever a 10amp outlet is required to be legally connected to a 15 amp plug It's approval is under a totally differant category to that for extension leads .A special category that up to them seeking approval did not exist!!!. I think your comments re bribing etc are ridiculous
I do hope you post their reply if you get one .
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 09:49:38 AM
Basil Faulty said
12:07 PM Dec 27, 2009
Clearly the Jury is out.... However my contention is that though it may be advertised as an "adapter" and therefore can be grey it is in reality a caravan lead used to power a caravan when a 15 amp GPO is not available. This is it's sole purpose as per their advertising they do not state anywhere else that it has any other purpose. Now the manufacturer may have been smart enough to call it an adapter with the knowledge that had he called it anything else related to caravans more stringent standards apply in which case he/they have mislead the testing authority. Should be interesting because where a product crosses the lines where standards are concerned and SA are made aware of it then usually they do apply the more stringent standard. I think you will find that in due course these will be required to be made as per the 10 amp chinese ones from Bunnings, Geo brown etc in "safety Orange" as per the relevant spec for saftey orange.
Too simple if the item is to be used outdoors laying on the ground in conditions that the manufacturer cannot control, by law it has to be made in safety orange.
oldtrack123 said
02:01 PM Dec 27, 2009
Hi Basil
Wonders never cease I do agree with you on the safety orange bit. I did miss that.
Basil Faulty said
04:46 PM Dec 27, 2009
So I'm assuming that there can be a couple of outcomes for this gadjet.... 1) a total recall and remanufactured in orange and labled "suiatble for outside use or 2 which is the way it will go I reckon they will be recalled, a 1.8m 10 amp lead on the 10 amp end and a 15 amp GPO on the other side of the box and labled "not for outside use" In the mean time you can bet your tinfoil g string that some little chinaman who has seen this device and makes the builders leads will be as we speak negotiating to be able to supply his with a 15 amp socket for exatly the same purpose....
jimricho said
05:36 PM Dec 27, 2009
Basil Faulty said
05:41 PM Dec 27, 2009
Boring you are we Jim?
oldtrack123 said
06:31 PM Dec 27, 2009
Basil Faulty wrote:
So I'm assuming that there can be a couple of outcomes for this gadjet.... 1) a total recall and remanufactured in orange and labled "suiatble for outside use or 2 which is the way it will go I reckon they will be recalled, a 1.8m 10 amp lead on the 10 amp end and a 15 amp GPO on the other side of the box and labled "not for outside use" In the mean time you can bet your tinfoil g string that some little chinaman who has seen this device and makes the builders leads will be as we speak negotiating to be able to supply his with a 15 amp socket for exatly the same purpose....
Hi Basil
This is no good , agreeing too much I agree but think option #1 is most likely The input lead is quite short @ present.. Check photo #2 Iwould think lees than 1.8mts.
#2 Provided they used a weatherproof outlet It could still be for outside use. This option solves a little problem that I have not mentioned but keeps it definitely as an adapter & not in way an extension lead. The problem of having illegal joined extension leads is resolved . Let the user take the decision for using illegal joined extension leads But they could simply put a more practical length on the output side,with which I see no problem . !0 metres ,to my mind, is not a practical length considering where it could possibly be most required /used . I do hope they have a secure patent or that will surely happen but it probably will be made there in due course for Amp Fib anyway
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 05:33:50 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 05:39:23 PM
Thank you for your email outlining your concerns in regard to the Ampfibian Caravan Adapter. You have raised some valid points and until we can investigate your claims fully we cannot give a definitive answer, however, this Adapter would not have a rating to allow outdoor use.
While we do not endorse any particular brand of product we can advise that HPM Legrande manufacture the Electrosafe range which will soon be available in a similar configuration to the Ampfibian Adapter you discuss in you email. You should contact HPM Legrande directly for details of this product.
Sincerely
Here is the gizmo they are talking about, now if it comes out as the 10 amp version with a 15 amp socket but because it is labled "C: for caravan and therefore 4 times the price... well you know whyt I would do....
15A Electresafe Power Centre
With a built-in RCD safety switch and MCB for overload protection, the 15A Electresafe Power Centre is ideal for use on construction sites and in workshops.
Features include:
Electromechanical RCD trips within 30 thousandths of a second if the supply neutral is lost
A type RCD protects the supply against AC earth fault currents and pulsating DC fault currents
Double pole shuttered outlets for extra safety
Parking clip for convenience
Rated IP33
Compatible with portable appliance testers
Compliant with AS/NZS301Z construction site requirements
15 amp top 10 amp bottom.... I rest my case.
oldtrack123 said
11:34 AM Dec 31, 2009
Hi Basil WHEN it does come out,of course they will be a little under the Ampfibian in price
Hpm will have to find a different enclosure to those shown they are not weather proof
.I do not quite under stand the reference to Ampfib not being suitable for out door use .
It is an approved weather proof enclosure [ not water proof]
Perhaps they are referring to the lead colour , that you picked up
So the situation appears to be ,at the MOMENT there is no approved adaptor for outdoor use. NO LEGAL WAY? for now As I said before WE can hold a sensible discussion
I know you will keep us informed
Pete
PS TO ALL If you have not done so go to the link I posted . It is 8 pages long with a lot of factual advise on this subject by qualified people. A little bit of picking between a couple but overall very good
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 31st of December 2009 10:56:01 AM
Basil Faulty said
06:07 PM Dec 31, 2009
Had a chatty poos to HPM today alas the person who I should speak to is on holidays but they were able to tell me that the 10 amp to 15amp electrosafe unit will retail at "around the $100 mark and it is weather proof and rated IP 44 and will look very similar to the existing Electrosafe devices"....
oldtrack123 said
06:29 PM Dec 31, 2009
Hi Basil
You have really done a good job Your tenacity amazes me $100 , now there should not be any excuse for not buying one
Why don't you go over to that link & throw the cat among the pigions
Pete
oldtrack123 said
10:55 AM Jan 2, 2010
Hi All Managed to borrow the As / NZs Standards for a few hrs just to refresh my memory
They clearly state that the 10<15amp adaptor lead must be SELF LIMITING ie the 10amp olcb MUST be a part of the lead. This is for the obvious reasons I have been pointing out, It totally removes any chance of overloading A 10a outlet.
The max length of such leads is 25mts As stated before leads must not be extended by joining . This rules out the Bunning,Clipsal & similar options
Pete
JRH said
01:53 PM Jan 2, 2010
oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi All Managed to borrow the As / NZs Standards for a few hrs just to refresh my memory
They clearly state that the 10<15amp adaptor lead must be SELF LIMITING ie the 10amp olcb MUST be a part of the lead. This is for the obvious reasons I have been pointing out, It totally removes any chance of overloading A 10a outlet.
The max length of such leads is 25mts As stated before leads must not be extended by joining . This rules out the Bunning,Clipsal & similar options
Pete
We are not all morons, for God's sake get a life and give this a rest.
-- Edited by JRH on Saturday 2nd of January 2010 12:53:43 PM
Rolly said
02:39 PM Jan 2, 2010
JRH wrote:
"We are not all morons, for God's sake get a life and give this a rest."
But, and it's a very big but, there are sufficient numbers of morons to justify the rather restrictive regulatory regimes that we live under.
Oldtrack may be preaching to the choir here, but I suspect that some of the singers fail to appreciate the levels of stupidity which many individuals can achieve.
As we have found to our cost over the thread on the 'sacred' tree being destroyed, whilst this is a private forum, it is also visible to anyone who cares to view it.
There is a massive shortfall in common sense out there. In reality "common sense" is an outstanding example of the oxymoron. (As is the idiot with the acetylene blow torch )
Best not to write anything that you would not like an 8 year old, aggressive ADHD sufferer, with unfettered access to a fully equipped workshop, to read.
They walk amongst us.
-- Edited by Rolly on Saturday 2nd of January 2010 01:40:42 PM
JRH said
04:57 PM Jan 2, 2010
Whatever you reckon is a fair thing, we will have to agree to disagree.
ibbo said
05:23 PM Jan 2, 2010
He's talking about you Ducky,you used the oxy torch.Next thing you will be accused of.dare I say it .Black Magic.If only the Laser had not broken down.Cheers.Ibbo.
DeBe said
07:34 PM Jan 2, 2010
Ibo Not the black Magic, When I did the Ford EFI course the instructor said us country mechanics way of checking vehicle electronics, was to put a few Resistors in a tray, shakemup & then tip out & read the way they fell. I think they reconed we were a bit behind in technology. Daryl
ibbo said
06:45 AM Jan 3, 2010
Fair Dinkum De Be,after reading all the tech.stuff about a bloody power plug I am in shock,never will I go into Bunnings electrical dept without breaking into a sweat,shaking,trying not to think of the dire results if I choose the wrong plug,wire,ampything or whatever.Bring back the kerosene lamp,the Primus Stove etc.Just where do our Boffins store all their electrical gear.Time to go now,early opener is open.Cheers.Ibbo.
Rolly said
05:36 PM Jan 3, 2010
DeBe wrote:
Ibo Not the black Magic, When I did the Ford EFI course the instructor said us country mechanics way of checking vehicle electronics, was to put a few Resistors in a tray, shakemup & then tip out & read the way they fell. I think they reconed we were a bit behind in technology. Daryl
Shouldn't you have used a hubcap and then tipped them out onto the tray where they stick to the tacky beer spillage so they don't move around to confuse things?
(Edit for verisimilitude)
-- Edited by Rolly on Sunday 3rd of January 2010 04:38:16 PM
dave06 said
10:15 AM Jan 4, 2010
well if he was working on a ford he could have just kicked the mudguard and read the bolts that fell out of the car!! LOL!
Rolly said
11:13 AM Jan 4, 2010
dave06 wrote:
well if he was working on a ford he could have just kicked the mudguard and read the bolts that fell out of the car!! LOL!
Whereas, on GM products, you do your calculations based on the number and rate of spot welds popping
Dave yes and cryptically light
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 09:57:58 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 10:01:46 PM
You do not have 2 15 A cords. The plugs you have installed on the cable make it a 10A cord. The Australian standards do not refer to cables by current carrying capacity. They refer to cable by it's cross section area.
You possibly have 2 cables constructed from 1.5 squ mm cable (which is colloquially known as 15 A cable.) If you do then these cables are not legal. The maximum length a 10A cable constructed from that cable is 35 metres.
The other possibility is that your cables were constructed correctly from 2.5 squ mm cable. Using 2.5 mm cable you can construct a 10A cable up to 60 metres in length. If you use 4.0 squ mm cable you can construct a 10A cable up to 100 metres in length.
Have a look at the table I have attached. It was copied from the Australian standards. Column 1 lists the sizes of plug available and thus the maximum current carrying capacity of a power cable constructed using those plugs. Column 2 lists the sizes of cable available. Column 3 lists the maxim permissible length of a cable you can construct with a particular plug and cable size.
Forget about talking about the current carrying capacity of a particular wire and talk about the maximum carrying capacity of the completed cable. The current carrying capacity that is marked on the reel of cable you cut your length from is only the maximum current of a short cable you can construct from it. Once you start constructing long cables you must use thicker cable to keep within the maximum permissible voltage drop with that cable. The requirement for thicker cables is one (and not all) of the reasons for not joining cables for portable and mobile dwellings.
Anomalies of this kind occur because the person doing the testing does not cross reference between the requirements of the various standards. I could be wrong but I sent an Email last night outlining my concerns to Standards Australia. They will no doubt take my concerns on board and I guess if they deem it necessary will issue a product recal and have it remanufactured in accordance with the existing standard for CARAVAN extension leads. Or they may choose to give it an exemption depending I guess on how easy it is to bribe the inspectors
Now have a look at your approved caravan lead and this device; what is the visible difference? Oh yes see it? Now this device may be intended for use around the home however as it is advertised as a CARAVAN lead it also has to comply with the relevant standard for such leads.
So it's really not a safety issue the thing will work as well as any other, just one of those little technicalities that means for example why you cannot legally use any 15 amp lead for a Caravan, legally it has to be tagged as approved for caravan use with the statement that it is illegal to remove the tag which begs the question why do the tags come so flimsily made, they fall off after laying in wet grass.
I'd like to thank Oldtrack, his devout pedanticicm of the LEGALITIES has caused me to do the investigation that has shown up this oversight, I think if we are discussing the legalities this point is valid.
So Bas wonders how often we all have our leads checked and tagged by a licenced electrician?
-- Edited by Basil Faulty on Sunday 27th of December 2009 08:38:28 AM
Your post is spot on re cable size ,run length etc
I have alluded to that in a couple of posts
But am in enough strife @ the moment, trying to convince some of the inaccuracies of their statements.
You will ,no doubt, be subject of similar crititism
"How dare you suggest that what we are doing is wrong""
I think you are getting desperate & grasping @ straws
For a start it is not a caravan extension lead
It is an ADAPTER For use when ever a 10amp outlet is required to be legally connected to a 15 amp plug
It's approval is under a totally differant category to that for extension leads
.A special category that up to them seeking approval did not exist!!!.
I think your comments re bribing etc are ridiculous
I do hope you post their reply if you get one .
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 09:49:38 AM
I think you will find that in due course these will be required to be made as per the 10 amp chinese ones from Bunnings, Geo brown etc in "safety Orange" as per the relevant spec for saftey orange.
Too simple if the item is to be used outdoors laying on the ground in conditions that the manufacturer cannot control, by law it has to be made in safety orange.
Wonders never cease I do agree with you on the safety orange bit.
I did miss that.
1) a total recall and remanufactured in orange and labled "suiatble for outside use or 2 which is the way it will go I reckon they will be recalled, a 1.8m 10 amp lead on the 10 amp end and a 15 amp GPO on the other side of the box and labled "not for outside use"
In the mean time you can bet your tinfoil g string that some little chinaman who has seen this device and makes the builders leads will be as we speak negotiating to be able to supply his with a 15 amp socket for exatly the same purpose....
This is no good ,
agreeing too much
I agree but think option #1 is most likely
The input lead is quite short @ present..
Check photo #2 Iwould think lees than 1.8mts.
#2 Provided they used a weatherproof outlet It could still be for outside use. This option solves a little problem that I have not mentioned but keeps it definitely as an adapter & not in way an extension lead.
The problem of having illegal joined extension leads is resolved .
Let the user take the decision for using illegal joined extension leads
But they could simply put a more practical length on the output side,with which I see no problem .
!0 metres ,to my mind, is not a practical length considering where it could possibly be most required /used .
I do hope they have a secure patent or that will surely happen but it probably will be made there in due course for Amp Fib anyway
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 05:33:50 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Sunday 27th of December 2009 05:39:23 PM
For those who think this is a bun fight ,try this link
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6536&sid=505b7d41f5ba19f60579a042d036f8f9
Dear Mr. ******
Thank you for your email outlining your concerns in regard to the Ampfibian Caravan Adapter. You have raised some valid points and until we can investigate your claims fully we cannot give a definitive answer, however, this Adapter would not have a rating to allow outdoor use.
While we do not endorse any particular brand of product we can advise that HPM Legrande manufacture the Electrosafe range which will soon be available in a similar configuration to the Ampfibian Adapter you discuss in you email. You should contact HPM Legrande directly for details of this product.
Sincerely
15A Electresafe Power Centre
With a built-in RCD safety switch and MCB for overload protection, the 15A Electresafe Power Centre is ideal for use on construction sites and in workshops.
Features include:
15 amp top 10 amp bottom.... I rest my case.
WHEN it does come out,of course they will be a little under the Ampfibian in price
Hpm will have to find a different enclosure to those shown they are not weather proof
.I do not quite under stand the reference to Ampfib not being suitable for out door use .
It is an approved weather proof enclosure [ not water proof]
Perhaps they are referring to the lead colour , that you picked up
So the situation appears to be ,at the MOMENT there is no approved adaptor for outdoor use.
NO LEGAL WAY? for now
As I said before WE can hold a sensible discussion
I know you will keep us informed
Pete
PS TO ALL
If you have not done so go to the link I posted .
It is 8 pages long with a lot of factual advise on this subject by qualified people.
A little bit of picking between a couple but overall very good
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6536&start=140
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Thursday 31st of December 2009 10:56:01 AM
You have really done a good job
Your tenacity amazes me
$100 , now there should not be any excuse for not buying one
Why don't you go over to that link & throw the cat among the pigions
Pete
Managed to borrow the As / NZs Standards for a few hrs just to refresh my memory
They clearly state that the 10<15amp adaptor lead must be SELF LIMITING ie the 10amp olcb MUST be a part of the lead.
This is for the obvious reasons I have been pointing out,
It totally removes any chance of overloading A 10a outlet.
The max length of such leads is 25mts
As stated before leads must not be extended by joining
.
This rules out the Bunning,Clipsal & similar options
Pete
-- Edited by JRH on Saturday 2nd of January 2010 12:53:43 PM
But, and it's a very big but, there are sufficient numbers of morons to justify the rather restrictive regulatory regimes that we live under.
Oldtrack may be preaching to the choir here, but I suspect that some of the singers fail to appreciate the levels of stupidity which many individuals can achieve.
As we have found to our cost over the thread on the 'sacred' tree being destroyed, whilst this is a private forum, it is also visible to anyone who cares to view it.
There is a massive shortfall in common sense out there.
In reality "common sense" is an outstanding example of the oxymoron. (As is the idiot with the acetylene blow torch
Best not to write anything that you would not like an 8 year old, aggressive ADHD sufferer, with unfettered access to a fully equipped workshop, to read.
They walk amongst us.
-- Edited by Rolly on Saturday 2nd of January 2010 01:40:42 PM
Shouldn't you have used a hubcap and then tipped them out onto the tray where they stick to the tacky beer spillage so they don't move around to confuse things?
(Edit for verisimilitude)
-- Edited by Rolly on Sunday 3rd of January 2010 04:38:16 PM
Whereas, on GM products, you do your calculations based on the number and rate of spot welds popping