I may be misunderstanding your intent Sarco, but it looks to me that you have just done to bicyclecamper what you have criticised him for doing?
Cuppa you seem to thrive on encouraging divisive responses on here. Is closing threads your agenda as has been suggested by others in the past?
Bicyclecamper said "I will always have my own opinion on matters of the heart like this, and will always call people out if I think their opinion is wrong or misguided."
I respect his post for saying how he feels, although maybe the words "called out" could have been better chosen. Sarco Harris is pointing out that those words signify more than a disagrement of opinion, and I believe his response was quite valid.
So instead of continuing on the path of bickering, how about we let Bicyclecamper's words stand and not weaken them by taking this discussion further off track until yet another thread gets closed.
A handful of folk here keep suggesting that I have an agenda to have threads closed. Referencing their suggestions as though what they suggest is accepted fact seems to me to be an attempt to perpetuate those unfounded accusations.
There is plenty of evidence of my disagreeing with some of what they post, but since when is disagreement & divisiveness the same thing?
Anyone who is a regular reader here will have seen that I can be persistent & dogged in the face of what may otherwise be very one sided threads which have been created in the knowledge of the potential divisiveness of their topic & subject matter.
Expecting no disagreement would in those cases be unrealistic. Receiving disagreement which highlights the nature of those posts & provides a different view then being labelled as divisive is no more than a deliberate misconstruction.
Frequent posting of right wing, climate change denialist, anti-assorted groups of people, racist, anti-woke assertions, interpretations & beliefs & labelling is potentially divisive when those posting are fully aware that their views are not held by all. Such posts invite disagreement.
Look back through the many threads over time, examine just the topic titles which contain subject plus comment/ disparaging remark & it is easy to pick which threads are the divisive ones without checking the posts.
Free speech is to be encouraged, but that must also allow for disagreement. Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic & become personal toward those with differing views. Disagreeing with an expressed view does not need to be personal, nor should having one's views disagreed with, per se, be perceived as being personal.
Repetitive & disingenuous accusations of my being responsible for getting threads closed does not change the fact that it is others who have been responsible for those which have been closed.
I recall more than once others posting that my disagreement with their views was intended to provoke them to do something against forum rules & thereby get them kicked off the forum or the thread being closed. That I would suggest was a schoolyard argument which sought to avoid personal responsibility for their own behaviours. I have never had any indication from forum admin that anything I have posted has contravened forum rules, nor do I expect that to occur.
I too respect Bicyclecampers words & the courage he displayed in posting them. Pointing out the irony of Sarco's criticism in no way weakened anything Bicyclecamper said, but your post does seem to use my comment to engage in unhelpful bickering, although I do take your point about the choice of 'calling out'. An example of just how powerful words can be & how others can take them possibly different to their intent. You could have said something along the lines of "I don't think that was Sarco's intention", & left out the rest.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 12:09:19 PM
Are We Lost said
12:13 PM Mar 28, 2023
I am content with what I said in the previous post and don't wish to engage in further discussion when your longish post has little to do with the subject. Choosing words from your post ...
"Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic"
Magnarc said
01:17 PM Mar 28, 2023
Long posts have the opposite to what's intended, especially when the posters position on certain topics are very well known. I do not read posts that are 30/35 lines long when the subject being written about could be condensed into 6 or 7 lines tops, unless they are technical advice helping others with problems. I am very sad when I see what was once a great place to have respectful, meaningful discourse and helped folks who needed it, turned into a few pushing their views down other peoples throats at every opportunity.
Cuppa said
01:19 PM Mar 28, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
Choosing words from your post ...
"Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic"
You missed the important part of the quote which was:
Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic & become personal toward those with differing views.
AndyCap100 said
01:22 PM Mar 28, 2023
Hi, Cuppa, i hope your diarrhea clears up quickly .!
As for the main topic of the posts ,SM Whiskey sums it up in my opinion .in that everyone theses days wants to be seen as `special`. There`s `special` people spewing out of the woodwork in increasing no`s because they can Social networking etc allows them the means to have a voice like never before and most live just sad ,pathetic lives that they are only too happy to jump on any bandwagon that shows an interest in them .
Me ,at allmost 71, can`t and won`t even try to understand any of it ,but i do know it is surely and slowly bringing a hellava lot of hate into peoples lives where there`s no need for it .
And to all those that wanna be thought of as `special` Remember ,EVERY human being is special. But MOST OF US don`t need to have a bloody riot to say so and get noticed .
Rock on people, and try and make sense of this mixed up world ,.
Aussie1 said
01:23 PM Mar 28, 2023
Lets have a referendum, that will sort it.
dorian said
01:40 PM Mar 28, 2023
@Cuppa, I see you as a generous, kind hearted soul who genuinely cares for the less fortunate people in our society. I often don't agree with you, but I still respect your views. It seems that your passion for certain issues makes you a target, but don't let your detractors bother you or deter you.
Have a nice life.
Southern Cruizer said
01:42 PM Mar 28, 2023
AndyCap100 wrote:
Hi, Cuppa, i hope your diarrhea clears up quickly .! As for the main topic of the posts ,SM Whiskey sums it up in my opinion .in that everyone theses days wants to be seen as `special`. There`s `special` people spewing out of the woodwork in increasing no`s because they can Social networking etc allows them the means to have a voice like never before and most live just sad ,pathetic lives that they are only too happy to jump on any bandwagon that shows an interest in them . Me ,at allmost 71, can`t and won`t even try to understand any of it ,but i do know it is surely and slowly bringing a hellava lot of hate into peoples lives where there`s no need for it . And to all those that wanna be thought of as `special` Remember ,EVERY human being is special. But MOST OF US don`t need to have a bloody riot to say so and get noticed . Rock on people, and try and make sense of this mixed up world ,.
AndyCap100, agree 100%
Cuppa said
01:42 PM Mar 28, 2023
AndyCap100 wrote:
Hi, Cuppa, i hope your diarrhea clears up quickly .! As for the main topic of the posts ,SM Whiskey sums it up in my opinion .in that everyone theses days wants to be seen as `special`. There`s `special` people spewing out of the woodwork in increasing no`s because they can Social networking etc allows them the means to have a voice like never before and most live just sad ,pathetic lives that they are only too happy to jump on any bandwagon that shows an interest in them . Me ,at allmost 71, can`t and won`t even try to understand any of it ,but i do know it is surely and slowly bringing a hellava lot of hate into peoples lives where there`s no need for it . And to all those that wanna be thought of as `special` Remember ,EVERY human being is special. But MOST OF US don`t need to have a bloody riot to say so and get noticed . Rock on people, and try and make sense of this mixed up world ,.
Hi AndyCap100,
No Diarrhoea at present than goodness, the 3 tablets a day do a pretty good job of keeping that at bay. Thanks for your concern though. I hope you too are in good health.
Me at almost 66, although it may be surprise to you, agree pretty much with all that you say. There is far too much hatred & sadly social media does give voice to it. I speak out against this when it becomes noticeable in my quite satisfied life.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 02:07:42 PM
Cuppa said
02:06 PM Mar 28, 2023
dorian wrote:
@Cuppa, I see you as a generous, kind hearted soul who genuinely cares for the less fortunate people in our society. I often don't agree with you, but I still respect your views. It seems that your passion for certain issues makes you a target, but don't let your detractors bother you or deter you.
Have a nice life.
Thanks Dorian, the respect is reciprocated. Whilst you remain a bit of a mystery to me I do have you pegged as someone who is thoughtful & insightful.
My passion for certain issues does indeed make me a target. I'm not a masochist however, & wish it were not so, but the fact that it happens only reinforces my desire to speak out when I see folk justifying beliefs & behaviours which lack compassion & empathy & which impact negatively on others.
I often think that were I talking to most of those who appear to enjoy having targets, whilst sitting out in the bush around a camp fire that although we may not agree on many things, we might actually find ways to enjoy each other's company.
I consider my life one I am lucky to have. Thanks. I wish you well.
Are We Lost said
02:41 PM Mar 28, 2023
AndyCap100 wrote:
.......... There`s `special` people spewing out of the woodwork in increasing no`s because they can Social networking etc allows them the means to have a voice like never before .............
Thanks Andy for bringing this back to the subject of the thread.
So much for the goal of unification, when in reality, the opposite is happening .... and so quickly. In just a short few years, the subject of racism has become so partisan that it is almost impossible to have a sensible discussion, because opinions are so strong. I used to watch movies, and never even thought about the race of the actors. Now I do.
I believe the same issue is what is driving the sudden increase in crime in remote areas of Australia ... constant discussion from an early age about racism and inequality, instead of assimilation. A referendum to give one group more power surely increases that division. I know it does for me.
The same for those with non heterosexual preferences, and other minority groups. The minority groups seem to be growing bigger chips on their shoulders and causing more division rather than just allowing assimilation in society to happen naturally ... as it was doing.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 02:43:55 PM
dorian said
02:47 PM Mar 28, 2023
Cuppa wrote:
Thanks Dorian, the respect is reciprocated. Whilst you remain a bit of a mystery to me I do have you pegged as someone who is thoughtful & insightful.
In my earlier years I used to be much more conservative in my views. In those days, to determine one's sex, you only needed to look inside your underwear. Since then, I have experienced mental issues of my own, issues within my family, issues amongst friends, and I also have personal experiences with mental patients. Nowadays I play a kind of internal devil's advocate, pitting my former self against my current self. I know how the other side thinks because I used to be one of them. Now I try to find some middle ground which acknowledges and incorporates inputs from all sides.
Cuppa said
03:03 PM Mar 28, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
The minority groups seem to be growing bigger chips on their shoulders and causing more division rather than just allowing assimilation in society to happen naturally ... as it was doing.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 02:43:55 PM
I expect similar sentiments were expressed when the suffragettes made their presence felt 120+ years ago. Without their efforts nothing would have changed. What changed was right. Change is rarely easy.
RickJ said
03:10 PM Mar 28, 2023
Are We Lost wrote:
AndyCap100 wrote:
.......... There`s `special` people spewing out of the woodwork in increasing no`s because they can Social networking etc allows them the means to have a voice like never before .............
Thanks Andy for bringing this back to the subject of the thread.
So much for the goal of unification, when in reality, the opposite is happening .... and so quickly. In just a short few years, the subject of racism has become so partisan that it is almost impossible to have a sensible discussion, because opinions are so strong. I used to watch movies, and never even thought about the race of the actors. Now I do.
I believe the same issue is what is driving the sudden increase in crime in remote areas of Australia ... constant discussion from an early age about racism and inequality, instead of assimilation. A referendum to give one group more power surely increases that division. I know it does for me.
The same for those with non heterosexual preferences, and other minority groups. The minority groups seem to be growing bigger chips on their shoulders and causing more division rather than just allowing assimilation in society to happen naturally ... as it was doing.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 02:43:55 PM
This was said a page ago in this topic.
*This suggests that gender inequality is just another quest to create division.*
And this was hilighted as a reply to the quote;
*Why would anyone think that the aim of folk speaking out in favour of transgender rights is intended to create division?*
Thank you AndyCap100 and Are We Lost.
In reality most people see this as it is and that is just another attempt to create obvious division.
Maybe the question should be asked as to why wouldnt anyone think the aim of folk speaking out bla bla bla etc etc.
While we might ask a question what would most folk want for their family and friends.??
Quoted from a post above.
I would not want or expect any female member of my family or friends have to compete in sport against a person of doubtful gender.
Webmaster said
04:06 PM Mar 28, 2023
Thanks everyone for your input on this; however I think the discussion has run its course so I am closing it now. Just a reminder to refrain from personal attacks. A few of the recent topics on this subforum have become quite heated and some members have made personal comments to and about others. We welcome robust debate as long posts are focused on the topic, not the member who posted (please also note that we do not allow politics).
A handful of folk here keep suggesting that I have an agenda to have threads closed. Referencing their suggestions as though what they suggest is accepted fact seems to me to be an attempt to perpetuate those unfounded accusations.
There is plenty of evidence of my disagreeing with some of what they post, but since when is disagreement & divisiveness the same thing?
Anyone who is a regular reader here will have seen that I can be persistent & dogged in the face of what may otherwise be very one sided threads which have been created in the knowledge of the potential divisiveness of their topic & subject matter.
Expecting no disagreement would in those cases be unrealistic. Receiving disagreement which highlights the nature of those posts & provides a different view then being labelled as divisive is no more than a deliberate misconstruction.
Frequent posting of right wing, climate change denialist, anti-assorted groups of people, racist, anti-woke assertions, interpretations & beliefs & labelling is potentially divisive when those posting are fully aware that their views are not held by all. Such posts invite disagreement.
Look back through the many threads over time, examine just the topic titles which contain subject plus comment/ disparaging remark & it is easy to pick which threads are the divisive ones without checking the posts.
Free speech is to be encouraged, but that must also allow for disagreement. Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic & become personal toward those with differing views. Disagreeing with an expressed view does not need to be personal, nor should having one's views disagreed with, per se, be perceived as being personal.
Repetitive & disingenuous accusations of my being responsible for getting threads closed does not change the fact that it is others who have been responsible for those which have been closed.
I recall more than once others posting that my disagreement with their views was intended to provoke them to do something against forum rules & thereby get them kicked off the forum or the thread being closed. That I would suggest was a schoolyard argument which sought to avoid personal responsibility for their own behaviours. I have never had any indication from forum admin that anything I have posted has contravened forum rules, nor do I expect that to occur.
I too respect Bicyclecampers words & the courage he displayed in posting them. Pointing out the irony of Sarco's criticism in no way weakened anything Bicyclecamper said, but your post does seem to use my comment to engage in unhelpful bickering, although I do take your point about the choice of 'calling out'. An example of just how powerful words can be & how others can take them possibly different to their intent. You could have said something along the lines of "I don't think that was Sarco's intention", & left out the rest.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 12:09:19 PM
"Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic"
Long posts have the opposite to what's intended, especially when the posters position on certain topics are very well known. I do not read posts that are 30/35 lines long when the subject being written about could be condensed into 6 or 7 lines tops, unless they are technical advice helping others with problems. I am very sad when I see what was once a great place to have respectful, meaningful discourse and helped folks who needed it, turned into a few pushing their views down other peoples throats at every opportunity.
You missed the important part of the quote which was:
Disagreement only becomes divisive once folk allow themselves to divert from the topic & become personal toward those with differing views.
As for the main topic of the posts ,SM Whiskey sums it up in my opinion .in that everyone theses days wants to be seen as `special`. There`s `special` people spewing out of the woodwork in increasing no`s because they can Social networking etc allows them the means to have a voice like never before and most live just sad ,pathetic lives that they are only too happy to jump on any bandwagon that shows an interest in them .
Me ,at allmost 71, can`t and won`t even try to understand any of it ,but i do know it is surely and slowly bringing a hellava lot of hate into peoples lives where there`s no need for it .
And to all those that wanna be thought of as `special` Remember ,EVERY human being is special. But MOST OF US don`t need to have a bloody riot to say so and get noticed .
Rock on people, and try and make sense of this mixed up world ,.
Have a nice life.
AndyCap100, agree 100%
Hi AndyCap100,
No Diarrhoea at present than goodness, the 3 tablets a day do a pretty good job of keeping that at bay. Thanks for your concern though. I hope you too are in good health.
Me at almost 66, although it may be surprise to you, agree pretty much with all that you say. There is far too much hatred & sadly social media does give voice to it. I speak out against this when it becomes noticeable in my quite satisfied life.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 02:07:42 PM
Thanks Dorian, the respect is reciprocated. Whilst you remain a bit of a mystery to me I do have you pegged as someone who is thoughtful & insightful.
My passion for certain issues does indeed make me a target. I'm not a masochist however, & wish it were not so, but the fact that it happens only reinforces my desire to speak out when I see folk justifying beliefs & behaviours which lack compassion & empathy & which impact negatively on others.
I often think that were I talking to most of those who appear to enjoy having targets, whilst sitting out in the bush around a camp fire that although we may not agree on many things, we might actually find ways to enjoy each other's company.
I consider my life one I am lucky to have. Thanks. I wish you well.
Thanks Andy for bringing this back to the subject of the thread.
So much for the goal of unification, when in reality, the opposite is happening .... and so quickly. In just a short few years, the subject of racism has become so partisan that it is almost impossible to have a sensible discussion, because opinions are so strong. I used to watch movies, and never even thought about the race of the actors. Now I do.
I believe the same issue is what is driving the sudden increase in crime in remote areas of Australia ... constant discussion from an early age about racism and inequality, instead of assimilation. A referendum to give one group more power surely increases that division. I know it does for me.
The same for those with non heterosexual preferences, and other minority groups. The minority groups seem to be growing bigger chips on their shoulders and causing more division rather than just allowing assimilation in society to happen naturally ... as it was doing.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Tuesday 28th of March 2023 02:43:55 PM
In my earlier years I used to be much more conservative in my views. In those days, to determine one's sex, you only needed to look inside your underwear. Since then, I have experienced mental issues of my own, issues within my family, issues amongst friends, and I also have personal experiences with mental patients. Nowadays I play a kind of internal devil's advocate, pitting my former self against my current self. I know how the other side thinks because I used to be one of them. Now I try to find some middle ground which acknowledges and incorporates inputs from all sides.
I expect similar sentiments were expressed when the suffragettes made their presence felt 120+ years ago. Without their efforts nothing would have changed. What changed was right. Change is rarely easy.
This was said a page ago in this topic.
And this was hilighted as a reply to the quote;
*Why would anyone think that the aim of folk speaking out in favour of transgender rights is intended to create division?*
Thank you AndyCap100 and Are We Lost.
In reality most people see this as it is and that is just another attempt to create obvious division.
Maybe the question should be asked as to why wouldnt anyone think the aim of folk speaking out bla bla bla etc etc.
While we might ask a question what would most folk want for their family and friends.??
Quoted from a post above.
I would not want or expect any female member of my family or friends have to compete in sport against a person of doubtful gender.
Thanks everyone for your input on this; however I think the discussion has run its course so I am closing it now. Just a reminder to refrain from personal attacks. A few of the recent topics on this subforum have become quite heated and some members have made personal comments to and about others. We welcome robust debate as long posts are focused on the topic, not the member who posted (please also note that we do not allow politics).