I will make that my main forum on here from now on
yobarr said
09:34 PM Jan 22, 2022
Radar wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Perhaps I have been conspicuous by my absence,but for the last couple of days I have been busy gathering data and compiling a list of facts to help yet another couple of responsible members who have contacted me by PM,seeking help with their vehicles and their weights.They are over the online arguing by some who know little,understand less and seemingly have no interest in learning? To quote one of the latest members to contact me "I do not want to start a hornet's nest again,and have a heated debate online.I know that you have a good understanding of this issue." Nothing I have ever posted cannot be proven to be true,but sometimes I feel that I am beating my head against a brick wall.Many members have sent PMs seeking advice,thanking me profusely when this has been offered,and I have both visited members homes and had phone conversations to help them. Everybody is entitled to an opinion,no matter how misguided they may be,but when it comes to weights there is no room for opinion.Your weights are either right,or they are wrong.There is no middle ground.Cheers
Yobarr personnally What I think is not necessarily worth printing.
Go back to driving road trains.
Thanks Ralph,for this obviously well considered and informative comment.Cheers
oldbloke said
10:14 PM Jan 22, 2022
Radar wrote:
Yobarr personnally What I think is not necessarily worth printing.
Go back to driving road trains.
-- Edited by Radar on Saturday 22nd of January 2022 08:24:00 PM
yobarr said
09:46 PM Jan 25, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
I think an image of a McHitch being used with a WDH hitch is simply a red herring. Neither are being used as intended.
Hi Neil.Have been working long hours,but finally I have found time to ask you to explain to us what you mean by "Neither are (is) being use as intended." As far as I am aware,there is only one way to use a McHitch.Fit it to your towbar.Simple really.And what is wrong with the WDH? It simply is fitted to the towbar receiver.If there is an alternative method of fitting a WDH to a car,please detail that method. And I can assure you that,in my travels,I have many times seen this this exact system used by caravanners with Zero understanding of weights,often in an effort to make a particular model do things that it simply cannot do safely.The increase in TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) is ridiculous,the big increases in the weight applied to the car's rear axle by towball weight,and a huge increase in the effects of yaw are some of the side effects of this setup.But I do look forward to your attempt to sensibly explain how these devices are not being used "as intended",and why you believe that the image is a "Red Herring". Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 25th of January 2022 10:58:32 PM
Plain Truth said
11:03 AM Jan 26, 2022
Some people don't understand that using a WDH does not take weight off the tow ball.
If you weigh 65kgs and stood on the tow ball,we have 65 kgs on the ball,now use a WDH. you don't magically get lighter there is still 65kgs on the tow ball.
Some people don't understand that using a WDH does not take weight off the tow ball.
If you weigh 65kgs and stood on the tow ball,we have 65 kgs on the ball,now use a WDH. you don't magically get lighter there is still 65kgs on the tow ball.
Thanks Alan.For months I have been trying to help members understand the simple physics involved in the use of a WDH,posting photos and information both from the HR website and from my own testing.Many hours have been spent helping members,often by PM,and I have been thanked for my efforts,but there is at least one member who cannot, does not,or will not understand the simple physics involved.C'est la vie. Cheers
Bobdown said
03:29 PM Jan 26, 2022
yobarr wrote:
Plain Truth wrote:
Some people don't understand that using a WDH does not take weight off the tow ball.
If you weigh 65kgs and stood on the tow ball,we have 65 kgs on the ball,now use a WDH. you don't magically get lighter there is still 65kgs on the tow ball.
Thanks Alan.For months I have been trying to help members understand the simple physics involved in the use of a WDH,posting photos and information both from the HR website and from my own testing.Many hours have been spent helping members,often by PM,and I have been thanked for my efforts,but there is at least one member who cannot, does not,or will not understand the simple physics involved.C'est la vie. Cheers
Who are 'the some people' who have said it changes? We all use it with that knowledge, used mainly to level up the rig as I have said repeatedly.
Like I said before, those that use a WDH have plenty of kg's to play with, either GCM, ATM or TBW..........unlike you Yobarr who couldn't put an extra slab of beer in the van cos you are on the limit.
Cheers Bob
Plain Truth said
03:36 PM Jan 26, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Plain Truth wrote:
Some people don't understand that using a WDH does not take weight off the tow ball.
If you weigh 65kgs and stood on the tow ball,we have 65 kgs on the ball,now use a WDH. you don't magically get lighter there is still 65kgs on the tow ball.
Thanks Alan.For months I have been trying to help members understand the simple physics involved in the use of a WDH,posting photos and information both from the HR website and from my own testing.Many hours have been spent helping members,often by PM,and I have been thanked for my efforts,but there is at least one member who cannot, does not,or will not understand the simple physics involved.C'est la vie. Cheers
Who are 'the some people' who have said it changes? We all use it with that knowledge, used mainly to level up the rig as I have said repeatedly.
Like I said before, those that use a WDH have plenty of kg's to play with, either GCM, ATM or TBW..........unlike you Yobarr who couldn't put an extra slab of beer in the van cos you are on the limit.
I can't agree with that ... "Less weight on the towball" with a WDH. It has more weight.
Imagine you are standing there with the WDH bars attached to the car but not the van. You lift the ends of the bars manually. The rear end of the car visibly rises a little. The front wheels take a small proportion of the load, but most is in the bars. But what happens when you attach those bars to the drawbar? The weight you were supporting has now been transferred onto the drawbar.
So, effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier by the same amount you were lifting. That extra load on the drawbar has to go somewhere. Some goes to the van wheels. But as the WDH brackets are close to the towball, the towball takes most of it. So the weight on the towball is greater. Not the same, and not less.
You now have what Yobarr calls the stiff arm. It's trying to act like a stiff board rather than one with a hinge in the centre (the coupling). The bars are lifting the back end of the car (taking weight off the back wheels) and distributing most of that weight to the drawbar. The drawbar is then redistributing that weight with most going back to the car via the towball. Because of the stiffness of the coupling now, a good proportion of that is transferred to the front wheels.
So the more a WDH is worked, the stiffer it becomes and the more effective it is.
My crystal ball tells me some people are going to find this contentious. If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 04:42:45 PM
yobarr said
05:00 PM Jan 26, 2022
Bobdown wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Plain Truth wrote:
Some people don't understand that using a WDH does not take weight off the tow ball.
If you weigh 65kgs and stood on the tow ball,we have 65 kgs on the ball,now use a WDH. you don't magically get lighter there is still 65kgs on the tow ball.
Thanks Alan.For months I have been trying to help members understand the simple physics involved in the use of a WDH,posting photos and information both from the HR website and from my own testing.Many hours have been spent helping members,often by PM,and I have been thanked for my efforts,but there is at least one member who cannot, does not,or will not understand the simple physics involved.C'est la vie. Cheers
Who are 'the some people' who have said it changes? We all use it with that knowledge, used mainly to level up the rig as I have said repeatedly.
Like I said before, those that use a WDH have plenty of kg's to play with, either GCM, ATM or TBW..........unlike you Yobarr who couldn't put an extra slab of beer in the van cos you are on the limit.
Cheers Bob
What are you on about,Bob? With GCM of 6800kg,legal on all axles,not only do I already have plenty of beer on board,but I also can carry up to 600 litres of water.With your car,you can't get within cooee of those figures.And it needs to be pointed out that there is absolutely no need to "level up the rig" unless perhaps your van does not have load-sharing suspension.Even then,as long as the van's chassis is level,it does not matter one iota what attitude the car has. And because I have chosen my car wisely,and load carefully,there is no need for the universally accepted,but highly overrated, cure-all of a WDH. Cheers
yobarr said
05:09 PM Jan 26, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
I can't agree with that ... "Less weight on the towball" with a WDH. It has more weight.
Imagine you are standing there with the WDH bars attached to the car but not the van. You lift the ends of the bars manually. The rear end of the car visibly rises a little. The front wheels take a small proportion of the load, but most is in the bars. But what happens when you attach those bars to the drawbar? The weight you were supporting has now been transferred onto the drawbar.
So, effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier by the same amount you were lifting. That extra load on the drawbar has to go somewhere. Some goes to the van wheels. But as the WDH brackets are close to the towball, the towball takes most of it. So the weight on the towball is greater. Not the same, and not less.
You now have what Yobarr calls the stiff arm. It's trying to act like a stiff board rather than one with a hinge in the centre (the coupling). The bars are lifting the back end of the car (taking weight off the back wheels) and distributing most of that weight to the drawbar. The drawbar is then redistributing that weight with most going back to the car via the towball. Because of the stiffness of the coupling now, a good proportion of that is transferred to the front wheels.
So the more a WDH is worked, the stiffer it becomes and the more effective it is.
My crystal ball tells me some people are going to find this contentious. If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
Hi Stephen.Not sure what you are attempting to illustrate here,but before anyone is confused by your assertions,I will say,for 6,950th (approx) time,
A WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT.
Never has,Never will.
This information is clearly written on the Haymane Reese website,screen shots of which I have posted prevoiusly.
Cheers
Are We Lost said
05:55 PM Jan 26, 2022
You have done it again. Just quoted what you and others have said before. Please explain where you you think my logic is wrong.
Specifically, all that downward force exerted by the bars on the drawbar..... where does it go?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 05:59:44 PM
yobarr said
07:27 PM Jan 26, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:h
You have done it again. Just quoted what you and others have said before. Please explain where you you think my logic is wrong.
Specifically, all that downward force exerted by the bars on the drawbar..... where does it go?
Hi Stephen.Please note that I was not criticising you,or disputing your assertions.All I said was that I was not sure what you are attempting to illustrate with your post.You wrote "So the weight on the towball is greater." It is not greater.It is not less. Towball weight does NOT change when a WDH is tensioned, and a look at the HR website will confirm this.You may also like to access videos on line by John Cadogan,where it all is clearly explained,in language that we all can understand,that a WDH does NOT alter towball weight.John is an engineer,as well as being an "Auto expert". Simply Google "John Cadogan WDH" or something similar,and it the video appear.Clear,concise and indesputable.Good luck with your search.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 07:29:45 PM
Are We Lost said
07:55 PM Jan 26, 2022
Well, I am saying that the load on the towball DOES change when a WDH is used.
Are We Lost wrote:
If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
You have often said the same words before, to me and to others. I'm not interested in what others have said even if Einstein said it. So ....
Please explain where you think my logic is wrong. Where does that downward force transmitted by the bars onto the drawbar go to?
Hint: Partly to the van wheels but mostly back to the car via the _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:05:03 PM
Ivan 01 said
08:34 PM Jan 26, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
I can't agree with that ... "Less weight on the towball" with a WDH. It has more weight.
Imagine you are standing there with the WDH bars attached to the car but not the van. You lift the ends of the bars manually. The rear end of the car visibly rises a little. The front wheels take a small proportion of the load, but most is in the bars. But what happens when you attach those bars to the drawbar? The weight you were supporting has now been transferred onto the drawbar.
So, effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier by the same amount you were lifting. That extra load on the drawbar has to go somewhere. Some goes to the van wheels. But as the WDH brackets are close to the towball, the towball takes most of it. So the weight on the towball is greater. Not the same, and not less.
You now have what Yobarr calls the stiff arm. It's trying to act like a stiff board rather than one with a hinge in the centre (the coupling). The bars are lifting the back end of the car (taking weight off the back wheels) and distributing most of that weight to the drawbar. The drawbar is then redistributing that weight with most going back to the car via the towball. Because of the stiffness of the coupling now, a good proportion of that is transferred to the front wheels.
So the more a WDH is worked, the stiffer it becomes and the more effective it is.
My crystal ball tells me some people are going to find this contentious. If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 04:42:45 PM
In the exercise of weighing a combination of a vehicle towing a pig trailer to achieve the GCM the drawbar can not increase in weight unless more weight is added to the pig trailer between the trailers axles and the tow coupling.
I grabbed this from anothers post.
See the picture, no weight on the drawbar. If there was, the back axle of the car would be on the ground.
The installation of a WDH or a rigid bar between the c/van and the car in theory, makes the combination become the same as a rigid two axle or in this case 3 axle vehicle.
In this example (picture) you cant weigh the tow bar or draw bar because it is in theory a rigid chassis.
Look at the picture. Imagine driving it onto a weighbridge.
The only weights you may read is from the axles of the van and the front axle of the car. This weight will equal the GCM of the combination.
Any weight reading can only be taken or assessed where the weigh point touches the ground. If it not touching the ground then it cant register a weight.
The weight has been moved by the action of the WDH bars, to the c/van and front axle of the car.
The weight that would normally be exerted onto the ground by the drawbar of the c/van is non existent because it has been distributed to the 2 van axles and the cars front axle. This car (in the picture) is a Front Wheel Drive and it was reported that for the demonstration it was driven around in that condition.
If a rigid bar or WDH removes weight from the draw bar and distributes part of that same weight to the vehicles front axle and part to the axle of the c/van then in theory, the draw bar / tow ball will be lighter by the total of the amount that the front axles and the c/van axle increase.
This is, and has been proven on the charts in this and other topics and so easily proven if anyone chooses totake their own van and car to a weighbridge.
The weight or design of the WD hitch, or the boot lid, the travellers suitcase in the boot, or the gas bottles on the drawbar have no relevence.
The static weight of the drawbar when standing on the ground will be lighter when a WDH is tensioned. The amount that the WDH is tensioned will have a direct effect on how much weight is transferred fore and aft.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:40:21 PM
Well, I am saying that the load on the towball DOES change when a WDH is used.
Are We Lost wrote:
If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
You have often said the same words before, to me and to others. I'm not interested in what others have said even if Einstein said it. So ....
Please explain where you think my logic is wrong. Where does that downward force transmitted by the bars onto the drawbar go to?
Hint: Partly to the van wheels but mostly back to the car via the _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
May I respectfully suggest that you contact Hayman Reese,who have been making WDH units for over 70 years,and let them know that they don't know what they're talking about when they state,on their website,that a WDH does not change towball weight. There is no logic involved in the distribution of weight,only simple physics.But just to give you something to ponder,I wonder,if a WDH was tensioned enough,would it be possible to lift the rear wheels of a car off the ground? The answer is "Yes". Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:53:09 PM
yobarr said
08:42 PM Jan 26, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
Are We Lost wrote:
I can't agree with that ... "Less weight on the towball" with a WDH. It has more weight.
Imagine you are standing there with the WDH bars attached to the car but not the van. You lift the ends of the bars manually. The rear end of the car visibly rises a little. The front wheels take a small proportion of the load, but most is in the bars. But what happens when you attach those bars to the drawbar? The weight you were supporting has now been transferred onto the drawbar.
So, effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier by the same amount you were lifting. That extra load on the drawbar has to go somewhere. Some goes to the van wheels. But as the WDH brackets are close to the towball, the towball takes most of it. So the weight on the towball is greater. Not the same, and not less.
You now have what Yobarr calls the stiff arm. It's trying to act like a stiff board rather than one with a hinge in the centre (the coupling). The bars are lifting the back end of the car (taking weight off the back wheels) and distributing most of that weight to the drawbar. The drawbar is then redistributing that weight with most going back to the car via the towball. Because of the stiffness of the coupling now, a good proportion of that is transferred to the front wheels.
So the more a WDH is worked, the stiffer it becomes and the more effective it is.
My crystal ball tells me some people are going to find this contentious. If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 04:42:45 PM
In the exercise of weighing a combination of a vehicle towing a pig trailer to achieve the GCM the drawbar can not increase in weight unless more weight is added to the pig trailer between the trailers axles and the tow coupling.
I grabbed this from anothers post.
See the picture, no weight on the drawbar. If there was, the back axle of the car would be on the ground.
The installation of a WDH or a rigid bar between the c/van and the car in theory, makes the combination become the same as a rigid two axle or in this case 3 axle vehicle.
In this example (picture) you cant weigh the tow bar or draw bar because it is in theory a rigid chassis.
Look at the picture. Imagine driving it onto a weighbridge.
The only weights you may read is from the axles of the van and the front axle of the car. This weight will equal the GCM of the combination.
Any weight reading can only be taken or assessed where the weigh point touches the ground. If it not touching the ground then it cant register a weight.
The weight has been moved by the action of the WDH bars, to the c/van and front axle of the car.
The weight that would normally be exerted onto the ground by the drawbar of the c/van is non existent because it has been distributed to the 2 van axles and the cars front axle. This car (in the picture) is a Front Wheel Drive and it was reported that for the demonstration it was driven around in that condition.
If a rigid bar or WDH removes weight from the draw bar and distributes part of that same weight to the vehicles front axle and part to the axle of the c/van then in theory, the draw bar / tow ball will be lighter by the total of the amount that the front axles and the c/van axle increase.
This is, and has been proven on the charts in this and other topics and so easily proven if anyone chooses totake their own van and car to a weighbridge.
The weight or design of the WD hitch, or the boot lid, the travellers suitcase in the boot, or the gas bottles on the drawbar have no relevence.
The static weight of the drawbar when standing on the ground will be lighter when a WDH is tensioned. The amount that the WDH is tensioned will have a direct effect on how much weight is transferred fore and aft.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:40:21 PM
Rubbish! Iva bit of an idea,maybe it's a Biggen,that this was posted a couple of years ago in an effort to confuse. As I had already said today,before you posted this picture,it is possible to lift the rear wheels of a car off the ground if a WDH is tensioned enough,BUT,towball weight will NOT change. Maybe you can now trawl back through more history to enable you to post more rubbish? And if you stil have time to spare,you may like to contact Hayman Reese and let them know that their assertion that a WDH does NOt change towball weight is incorrect.Good luck with that.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:54:52 PM
Dougwe said
09:01 PM Jan 26, 2022
There is a Baseball movie, one of the best I might add, in it is a saying "build it and they will come" Well, on this forum it is, "go fishing and they will bite".
Ivan 01 said
09:02 PM Jan 26, 2022
Yobarr said.
Rubbish!
Is it rubbish because you can prove how the weight from the drawbar is not directly moved or transferred to the tow vehicles front axle and the vans axles when using a WDH??
Or
Is it rubbish because you just say it is??
May I suggest that it is the latter!
Yobarr, could you please prove it by weighbridge examples or if you cant then, leave it go.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:17:41 PM
Ivan 01 said
09:09 PM Jan 26, 2022
Hi Yobarr,
Yes that was me, Iva B.
When diagnosed with an illness I decided to leave this forum and site. Upon the favourable outcome of my treatment I decided to rejoin. No crime in that.
One thing about me I used my name Ivan Biggs in both my accounts. You would understand that Mr Yobarr.
The handle I used a couple of years ago was retired by me as I decided to just use my actual name.
Going back in history and discrediting others in other topics still does not make you correct.
How about you Just Answer My Post Above
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:15:40 PM
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:18:33 PM
yobarr said
09:18 PM Jan 26, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
Hi Yobarr,
Yes that was me, Iva B.
When diagnosed with an illness I decided to leave this forum and site. Upon the favourable outcome of my treatment I decided to rejoin. No crime in that.
Going back in history and discrediting others in other topics still does not make you correct.
How about you Just Answer My Post Above
Hi Ivan.Great to hear that you have had successful treatment for your illness,and that you can again enjoy your life.We can no doubt anticipate that we will cross swords in the future,but I will continue my attempts to help you and others understand the simple physics involved with the use of a WDH,and indeed,to understand weights in general. Trawling up rubbish that was posted years ago does nothing to help the cause,and serves only to further confuse people who have little understanding of these things,but are trying to learn. Good luck for the future.Cheers
Ivan 01 said
09:30 PM Jan 26, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
Yobarr said.
Rubbish!
Is it rubbish because you can prove how the weight from the drawbar is not directly moved or transferred to the tow vehicles front axle and the vans axles when using a WDH??
Or
Is it rubbish because you just say it is??
May I suggest that it is the latter!
Yobarr, could you please prove it by weighbridge examples or if you cant then, leave it go.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:17:41 PM
Mr Yobarr,
Although your well wishes are accepted and appreciated may I ask that you answer my post.
Do you have a qualification that you may accurately explain Physics to this forum?
You referred to my post as *rubbish* so feel free to tell us all what part of it is *rubbish.*
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:33:08 PM
Ivan 01 said
09:35 PM Jan 26, 2022
Quickly, Quickly Mr Yobarr, before Cindy brings out the padlock. Yet Again.
yobarr said
09:41 PM Jan 26, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
Yobarr said.
Rubbish!
Is it rubbish because you can prove how the weight from the drawbar is not directly moved or transferred to the tow vehicles front axle and the vans axles when using a WDH??
Or
Is it rubbish because you just say it is??
May I suggest that it is the latter!
Yobarr, could you please prove it by weighbridge examples or if you cant then, leave it go.
Ivan,in the past I have published a list of the figures that were obtained from my own extensive testing and weighing of my car and van,both before and after my WDH was tensioned.These figures showed that,as is published on the Hayman Reese website,a WDH does NOT change towball weight. This was only a brief foray into the use of a WDH,after I had been convinced that the WDH would do all sorts of life enhancing things,such as level the van, make the car better to drive,improve braking,improve cornering etc etc.My conclusion was that a WDH creates more problems than it fixes.Think "oversteer" for starters.Since you may have spare time,you may wish to search for these figures,which were provided around 2-3 years ago. Because I am working long hours driving a Road Train to help a small company,I don't have too much time to spare.Cheers
Ivan 01 said
09:58 PM Jan 26, 2022
Mr Yobarr,
I am truly amazed that you can find an old post of mine (as you claim) within minutes of me posting but you cannot produce a post of your own whereby you claim you have proved on a weigh bridge that the drawbar weight or part thereof, does not transfer to the front axle of the tow vehicle and the axle group of the van.
We arent interested with your personal thoughts of the pros and cons of a WDH as this is not what you are being asked.
You know what I am asking is for you to prove that what I wrote above was *rubbish*
iana said
11:23 PM Jan 26, 2022
Does a WDH change the weight on the tow ball ? yes depending. If having hooked up a trailer, and the rear of the vehicle has dropped, this will mean the center of gravity has moved forward, caused by the rotation of the trailer about its axle. If the tow ball weight was measured with the trailer in the level position, when the trailer is hitched and has dropped accordingly, the weight on the hitch will have increased, and the weight over the wheels would have decreased.
By adding and tensioning up the WDH, the trailer hitch would be raised, and the C of G will have moved back, the weight going back onto the main axle , taken off the hitch. The more the trailer has caused the tow vehicles rear suspension to drop, the more the effect. On the other hand if the trailer has caused very little drop to the rear of the tow vehicle, then a WDH will have little effect on the tow ball weight.
If this did not occur, the common wheel barrow would not be used, the wheel barrow works when lifting the handle (the equivalent of the trailer tow ball), weight is transferred from the handle to the main wheel, continue lifting and there will soon be no weight on the handles, lift further and you tip the load.
I am not talking about the use of a WDH and its effect of turning the structure into a semi ridged beam, but the effect of just raising the hitch, whether using a WDH, springs or "pump up" shocks, the effect of moving the C of G, will effect the distribution of weight on the trailer, it may be a large amount or a small amount, that is of no consequence, the ball weight will have changed.
Are We Lost said
01:02 AM Jan 27, 2022
Ivan, you referred to the possibility of the thread being locked. It was quite civil until some old rivalries were reactivated. Perhaps you and Yobarr could consider being a bit milder in your comments.
I think everyone is on the same wavelength that total weight on all the wheels never changes regardless of how a WDH is tensioned. The weight is just moved around a bit. Also, the actual weight of the drawbar never changes. I said "effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier" (by the weight imposed by the bars). Sorry if the terms I am using are not correct.
Iana, thanks for your input and I agree with your comments about the effect of moving the centre of gravity. However that would be on top of what I am referring to. I refer just to the load imposed by the bars.
I thought of another way to make this clear. Imagine the van is in perfect balance, with zero towball weight. You can lift the coupling with a finger. Ignore centre of gravity changes. Rest the coupling on the towball. Now attach the WDH bars to the drawbar brackets and tension them. The bars are now lifting the back of the car while at the same time the other end of them is pulling down on the drawbar. Will you be able to lift the drawbar off the towball now? Hasn't that changed the weight on the towball?
And to Yobarr, after all the times I have seen you quote those words I don't recollect you ever explaining anything about why. Can you?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 27th of January 2022 01:03:34 AM
Ivan 01 said
08:04 AM Jan 27, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
Ivan, you referred to the possibility of the thread being locked. It was quite civil until some old rivalries were reactivated. Perhaps you and Yobarr could consider being a bit milder in your comments.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 27th of January 2022 01:03:34 AM
Good day AWL
Unfortunately most topics on this subject have been locked.
However if I may defend myself my very first reply was as an answer to your post, it had nothing to do with Mr Yobarr.
If you note the most aggression I may have displayed was to highlight bold quotes which I considered needing being noted
Mr Yobarr elected to call my post *RUBBISH*
In fact it was his only comment until he realised that I had resurrected my old account on here then he proceeded with his standard condescending comments as to how he knows all and he is helping us all.
This has been his form on here and it allegedly follows his form on other forums which, due to his similar attitude and comments he has been banned from those platforms.
If the topic is locked then so be it but one sided abuse should not be tolerated, no matter who is correct. Other forums on which he misbehaved fixed it in a very simple manner. He was permanently removed from the platform
Personally I dont think anyone was getting anywhere with their views because Mr Yobarr and some others can not answer the questions asked by me and others. Another member on here in this topic is still waiting for answers to questions he asked of Mr Yobarr.
Mr Yobarr s defence was to accuse me of *trawling up old *rubbish* which he could not provide answers to back then and still cant.
Trawling up old rubbish is not exclusive to me. Just read back in this topic.
Anyway I will bail out of your topic, but I will bet my gonads that the questions asking for his explanation of his theory will never be answered.
I will sit quietly and watch it just go around and around until someone else protests his condescending attitude to anyone who he disagrees with.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Thursday 27th of January 2022 08:08:46 AM
iana said
08:20 AM Jan 27, 2022
The real sad thing here, is that any person contemplating asking a question on the forum about these issues will be reluctant to do so, because of the few locked in this endless debate. To keep this forum alive we want people to come forward and put up questions and points of view. I was hopping this thread had died, and we could move on.
Gundog said
09:30 AM Jan 27, 2022
This continual toing and froing about towball weight is becoming tiresome because some people refuse to believe the facts.
1. TBW is a static weight that can only measured correctly when the trailer is level and not connected.
2. As soon as the trailer is connected to the towing vehicle the TBW becomes irrelevant as it is unmeasurable.
3. Using a WDH is about weight distribution nothing else.
4. From personal experience in using WDH'S and a lot of research, the setup and application of the WDH needs to be inline with the manufactures instructions.
* My WDH has been setup using the measurement method and then checked using a weighbridge
5. As long as your combination is within the weight limits for you vehicle (GCM, GTM and Axle weights) nothing else matters.
Finally as long as the TBW doesn't exceed the weight specified on the Towbar I'd plate nothing else matters.
Good one Neil,
I will make that my main forum on here from now on
Thanks Ralph,for this obviously well considered and informative comment.Cheers
Hi Neil.Have been working long hours,but finally I have found time to ask you to explain to us what you mean by "Neither are (is) being use as intended." As far as I am aware,there is only one way to use a McHitch.Fit it to your towbar.Simple really.And what is wrong with the WDH? It simply is fitted to the towbar receiver.If there is an alternative method of fitting a WDH to a car,please detail that method. And I can assure you that,in my travels,I have many times seen this this exact system used by caravanners with Zero understanding of weights,often in an effort to make a particular model do things that it simply cannot do safely.The increase in TBO (towball overhang,or distance from rear axle to hitch point) is ridiculous,the big increases in the weight applied to the car's rear axle by towball weight,and a huge increase in the effects of yaw are some of the side effects of this setup.But I do look forward to your attempt to sensibly explain how these devices are not being used "as intended",and why you believe that the image is a "Red Herring". Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 25th of January 2022 10:58:32 PM
Some people don't understand that using a WDH does not take weight off the tow ball.
If you weigh 65kgs and stood on the tow ball,we have 65 kgs on the ball,now use a WDH. you don't magically get lighter there is still 65kgs on the tow ball.
Thanks Alan.For months I have been trying to help members understand the simple physics involved in the use of a WDH,posting photos and information both from the HR website and from my own testing.Many hours have been spent helping members,often by PM,and I have been thanked for my efforts,but there is at least one member who cannot, does not,or will not understand the simple physics involved.C'est la vie. Cheers
Who are 'the some people' who have said it changes? We all use it with that knowledge, used mainly to level up the rig as I have said repeatedly.
Like I said before, those that use a WDH have plenty of kg's to play with, either GCM, ATM or TBW..........unlike you Yobarr who couldn't put an extra slab of beer in the van cos you are on the limit.
Cheers Bob
Does this answer your question
I can't agree with that ... "Less weight on the towball" with a WDH. It has more weight.
Imagine you are standing there with the WDH bars attached to the car but not the van. You lift the ends of the bars manually. The rear end of the car visibly rises a little. The front wheels take a small proportion of the load, but most is in the bars. But what happens when you attach those bars to the drawbar? The weight you were supporting has now been transferred onto the drawbar.
So, effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier by the same amount you were lifting. That extra load on the drawbar has to go somewhere. Some goes to the van wheels. But as the WDH brackets are close to the towball, the towball takes most of it. So the weight on the towball is greater. Not the same, and not less.
You now have what Yobarr calls the stiff arm. It's trying to act like a stiff board rather than one with a hinge in the centre (the coupling). The bars are lifting the back end of the car (taking weight off the back wheels) and distributing most of that weight to the drawbar. The drawbar is then redistributing that weight with most going back to the car via the towball. Because of the stiffness of the coupling now, a good proportion of that is transferred to the front wheels.
So the more a WDH is worked, the stiffer it becomes and the more effective it is.
My crystal ball tells me some people are going to find this contentious. If you disagree with what I wrote, please discuss the physics rather than quoting what others have said.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 04:42:45 PM
What are you on about,Bob? With GCM of 6800kg,legal on all axles,not only do I already have plenty of beer on board,but I also can carry up to 600 litres of water.With your car,you can't get within cooee of those figures.And it needs to be pointed out that there is absolutely no need to "level up the rig" unless perhaps your van does not have load-sharing suspension.Even then,as long as the van's chassis is level,it does not matter one iota what attitude the car has. And because I have chosen my car wisely,and load carefully,there is no need for the universally accepted,but highly overrated, cure-all of a WDH. Cheers
Hi Stephen.Not sure what you are attempting to illustrate here,but before anyone is confused by your assertions,I will say,for 6,950th (approx) time,
A WDH DOES NOT CHANGE TOWBALL WEIGHT.
Never has,Never will.
This information is clearly written on the Haymane Reese website,screen shots of which I have posted prevoiusly.
Cheers
You have done it again. Just quoted what you and others have said before. Please explain where you you think my logic is wrong.
Specifically, all that downward force exerted by the bars on the drawbar..... where does it go?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 05:59:44 PM
Hi Stephen.Please note that I was not criticising you,or disputing your assertions.All I said was that I was not sure what you are attempting to illustrate with your post.You wrote "So the weight on the towball is greater." It is not greater.It is not less. Towball weight does NOT change when a WDH is tensioned, and a look at the HR website will confirm this.You may also like to access videos on line by John Cadogan,where it all is clearly explained,in language that we all can understand,that a WDH does NOT alter towball weight.John is an engineer,as well as being an "Auto expert". Simply Google "John Cadogan WDH" or something similar,and it the video appear.Clear,concise and indesputable.Good luck with your search.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 07:29:45 PM
Well, I am saying that the load on the towball DOES change when a WDH is used.
You have often said the same words before, to me and to others. I'm not interested in what others have said even if Einstein said it. So ....
Please explain where you think my logic is wrong. Where does that downward force transmitted by the bars onto the drawbar go to?
Hint: Partly to the van wheels but mostly back to the car via the _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:05:03 PM
In the exercise of weighing a combination of a vehicle towing a pig trailer to achieve the GCM the drawbar can not increase in weight unless more weight is added to the pig trailer between the trailers axles and the tow coupling.
I grabbed this from anothers post.
See the picture, no weight on the drawbar.
If there was, the back axle of the car would be on the ground.
The installation of a WDH or a rigid bar between the c/van and the car in theory, makes the combination become the same as a rigid two axle or in this case 3 axle vehicle.
In this example (picture) you cant weigh the tow bar or draw bar because it is in theory a rigid chassis.
Look at the picture.
Imagine driving it onto a weighbridge.
The only weights you may read is from the axles of the van and the front axle of the car. This weight will equal the GCM of the combination.
Any weight reading can only be taken or assessed where the weigh point touches the ground.
If it not touching the ground then it cant register a weight.
The weight has been moved by the action of the WDH bars, to the c/van and front axle of the car.
The weight that would normally be exerted onto the ground by the drawbar of the c/van is non existent because it has been distributed to the 2 van axles and the cars front axle.
This car (in the picture) is a Front Wheel Drive and it was reported that for the demonstration it was driven around in that condition.
If a rigid bar or WDH removes weight from the draw bar and distributes part of that same weight to the vehicles front axle and part to the axle of the c/van then in theory, the draw bar / tow ball will be lighter by the total of the amount that the front axles and the c/van axle increase.
This is, and has been proven on the charts in this and other topics and so easily proven if anyone chooses to take their own van and car to a weighbridge.
The weight or design of the WD hitch, or the boot lid, the travellers suitcase in the boot, or the gas bottles on the drawbar have no relevence.
The static weight of the drawbar when standing on the ground will be lighter when a WDH is tensioned. The amount that the WDH is tensioned will have a direct effect on how much weight is transferred fore and aft.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:40:21 PM
May I respectfully suggest that you contact Hayman Reese,who have been making WDH units for over 70 years,and let them know that they don't know what they're talking about when they state,on their website,that a WDH does not change towball weight. There is no logic involved in the distribution of weight,only simple physics.But just to give you something to ponder,I wonder,if a WDH was tensioned enough,would it be possible to lift the rear wheels of a car off the ground? The answer is "Yes". Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:53:09 PM
Rubbish! Iva bit of an idea,maybe it's a Biggen,that this was posted a couple of years ago in an effort to confuse. As I had already said today,before you posted this picture,it is possible to lift the rear wheels of a car off the ground if a WDH is tensioned enough,BUT,towball weight will NOT change. Maybe you can now trawl back through more history to enable you to post more rubbish? And if you stil have time to spare,you may like to contact Hayman Reese and let them know that their assertion that a WDH does NOt change towball weight is incorrect.Good luck with that.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 08:54:52 PM
Yobarr said.
Rubbish!
Is it rubbish because you can prove how the weight from the drawbar is not directly moved or transferred to the tow vehicles front axle and the vans axles when using a WDH??
Or
Is it rubbish because you just say it is??
May I suggest that it is the latter!
Yobarr, could you please prove it by weighbridge examples or if you cant then, leave it go.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:17:41 PM
Hi Yobarr,
Yes that was me, Iva B.
When diagnosed with an illness I decided to leave this forum and site.
Upon the favourable outcome of my treatment I decided to rejoin. No crime in that.
One thing about me I used my name Ivan Biggs in both my accounts.
You would understand that Mr Yobarr.
The handle I used a couple of years ago was retired by me as I decided to just use my actual name.
Going back in history and discrediting others in other topics still does not make you correct.
How about you Just Answer My Post Above
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:15:40 PM
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:18:33 PM
Hi Ivan.Great to hear that you have had successful treatment for your illness,and that you can again enjoy your life.We can no doubt anticipate that we will cross swords in the future,but I will continue my attempts to help you and others understand the simple physics involved with the use of a WDH,and indeed,to understand weights in general. Trawling up rubbish that was posted years ago does nothing to help the cause,and serves only to further confuse people who have little understanding of these things,but are trying to learn. Good luck for the future.Cheers
Mr Yobarr,
Although your well wishes are accepted and appreciated may I ask that you answer my post.
Do you have a qualification that you may accurately explain Physics to this forum?
You referred to my post as *rubbish* so feel free to tell us all what part of it is *rubbish.*
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Wednesday 26th of January 2022 09:33:08 PM
Ivan,in the past I have published a list of the figures that were obtained from my own extensive testing and weighing of my car and van,both before and after my WDH was tensioned.These figures showed that,as is published on the Hayman Reese website,a WDH does NOT change towball weight. This was only a brief foray into the use of a WDH,after I had been convinced that the WDH would do all sorts of life enhancing things,such as level the van, make the car better to drive,improve braking,improve cornering etc etc.My conclusion was that a WDH creates more problems than it fixes.Think "oversteer" for starters.Since you may have spare time,you may wish to search for these figures,which were provided around 2-3 years ago. Because I am working long hours driving a Road Train to help a small company,I don't have too much time to spare.Cheers
Mr Yobarr,
I am truly amazed that you can find an old post of mine (as you claim) within minutes of me posting but you cannot produce a post of your own whereby you claim you have proved on a weigh bridge that the drawbar weight or part thereof, does not transfer to the front axle of the tow vehicle and the axle group of the van.
We arent interested with your personal thoughts of the pros and cons of a WDH as this is not what you are being asked.
You know what I am asking is for you to prove that what I wrote above was *rubbish*
By adding and tensioning up the WDH, the trailer hitch would be raised, and the C of G will have moved back, the weight going back onto the main axle , taken off the hitch. The more the trailer has caused the tow vehicles rear suspension to drop, the more the effect. On the other hand if the trailer has caused very little drop to the rear of the tow vehicle, then a WDH will have little effect on the tow ball weight.
If this did not occur, the common wheel barrow would not be used, the wheel barrow works when lifting the handle (the equivalent of the trailer tow ball), weight is transferred from the handle to the main wheel, continue lifting and there will soon be no weight on the handles, lift further and you tip the load.
I am not talking about the use of a WDH and its effect of turning the structure into a semi ridged beam, but the effect of just raising the hitch, whether using a WDH, springs or "pump up" shocks, the effect of moving the C of G, will effect the distribution of weight on the trailer, it may be a large amount or a small amount, that is of no consequence, the ball weight will have changed.
Ivan, you referred to the possibility of the thread being locked. It was quite civil until some old rivalries were reactivated. Perhaps you and Yobarr could consider being a bit milder in your comments.
I think everyone is on the same wavelength that total weight on all the wheels never changes regardless of how a WDH is tensioned. The weight is just moved around a bit. Also, the actual weight of the drawbar never changes. I said "effectively, the drawbar appears to be heavier" (by the weight imposed by the bars). Sorry if the terms I am using are not correct.
Iana, thanks for your input and I agree with your comments about the effect of moving the centre of gravity. However that would be on top of what I am referring to. I refer just to the load imposed by the bars.
I thought of another way to make this clear. Imagine the van is in perfect balance, with zero towball weight. You can lift the coupling with a finger. Ignore centre of gravity changes. Rest the coupling on the towball. Now attach the WDH bars to the drawbar brackets and tension them. The bars are now lifting the back of the car while at the same time the other end of them is pulling down on the drawbar. Will you be able to lift the drawbar off the towball now? Hasn't that changed the weight on the towball?
And to Yobarr, after all the times I have seen you quote those words I don't recollect you ever explaining anything about why. Can you?
-- Edited by Are We Lost on Thursday 27th of January 2022 01:03:34 AM
Good day AWL
Unfortunately most topics on this subject have been locked.
However if I may defend myself my very first reply was as an answer to your post, it had nothing to do with Mr Yobarr.
If you note the most aggression I may have displayed was to highlight bold quotes which I considered needing being noted
Mr Yobarr elected to call my post *RUBBISH*
In fact it was his only comment until he realised that I had resurrected my old account on here then he proceeded with his standard condescending comments as to how he knows all and he is helping us all.
This has been his form on here and it allegedly follows his form on other forums which, due to his similar attitude and comments he has been banned from those platforms.
If the topic is locked then so be it but one sided abuse should not be tolerated, no matter who is correct. Other forums on which he misbehaved fixed it in a very simple manner. He was permanently removed from the platform
Personally I dont think anyone was getting anywhere with their views because Mr Yobarr and some others can not answer the questions asked by me and others. Another member on here in this topic is still waiting for answers to questions he asked of Mr Yobarr.
Mr Yobarr s defence was to accuse me of *trawling up old *rubbish* which he could not provide answers to back then and still cant.
Trawling up old rubbish is not exclusive to me. Just read back in this topic.
Anyway I will bail out of your topic, but I will bet my gonads that the questions asking for his explanation of his theory will never be answered.
I will sit quietly and watch it just go around and around until someone else protests his condescending attitude to anyone who he disagrees with.
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Thursday 27th of January 2022 08:08:46 AM
This continual toing and froing about towball weight is becoming tiresome because some people refuse to believe the facts.
1. TBW is a static weight that can only measured correctly when the trailer is level and not connected.
2. As soon as the trailer is connected to the towing vehicle the TBW becomes irrelevant as it is unmeasurable.
3. Using a WDH is about weight distribution nothing else.
4. From personal experience in using WDH'S and a lot of research, the setup and application of the WDH needs to be inline with the manufactures instructions.
* My WDH has been setup using the measurement method and then checked using a weighbridge
5. As long as your combination is within the weight limits for you vehicle (GCM, GTM and Axle weights) nothing else matters.
Finally as long as the TBW doesn't exceed the weight specified on the Towbar I'd plate nothing else matters.