I was intrigued by the secret price for Lithium batteries and have been doing some research. There seems to be a reluctance to advertise prices and I suspect that maybe some places are adjusting prices to either an estimate of the customer's affluence or to aid in on-selling various options. However Jaycar to the rescue. SB 2215, 12.8V 100AH LiFePO4 Lithium battery $799.00 MP 3741, MPPT Solar charge controller for Lithium or SLA batteries $199 MP 3746, WiFi Communication module for MP 3741 Solar charge controller 59.95
Total $1057.95
The MP 3746 is required to program the Solar charge controller. Need to enter the parameters from the battery spec. sheet.
I can see no reason why this is not a drop in replacement for an AGM battery system.
Just be aware of the maximum current limitations of many "drop in" lithium batteries.
This one is 150A. https://www.jaycar.com.au/12-8v-100ah-lithium-deep-cycle-battery/p/SB2215
An AGM of similar capacity would have short term discharge capacity of about 3 X that (I use a 125Ah AGM for cranking the OKA and winching that has 600A discharge capacity).
It also says that the standard recharge rate is 0.5A. I would hope that this is an error.
It is also 3X the cost of an AGM of that capacity, so it needs to have some very good features to compensate for that.
Buyer beware.
Cheers,
Peter
swamp said
11:25 PM Jan 5, 2020
aimless traveler wrote:
I know pretty much what camping fridge i am going to get, waeco cfx40.
I have $1500 for the buying of a batt/s solar panel and a MPPT, i am only on a pension so funds r tight i am using my savings to make this happen, i may be able to push a lil more.
It will be used to run the fridge for the most part and some led lighting at night, i do have a lil back up genny already, what i was thinking was a 300w panel on the roof so it can be detached bring to the ground and setup on an solar panel sun tracking system, and maybe a small folding one for a bit extra.
Any and all advice on what i may need and if i am dreaming trying do it with my lil budget.
1 x 25 amp projecta DC to dc charger 250-300$$ car altenator and solar input
1x Projecta 240v 21 amp charger 200$
wiring cables connectors etc 200$
Labour DIY
Hylife said
10:47 PM Jan 16, 2020
This thread reminds me of the story of the 8th century wise King Canute.
Whilst walking along a beach he became sick and tired of hearing the bullsh!t suck-up stories of how powerful and mighty he was and that no-one and nothing was above him.
So, he ordered a chair be bought to him and placed at the waters edge.
He then asked his officers if they believed him so powerful that if he should give the order to the ocean for the waves to not come in it would stop because he commanded it?
Unable to see sense they agreed it would because the whole world bowed before him.
So to prove how foolish they were he sat down and gave the order "I command you to come no further".
The tide of course continued to come in as it always did, rising higher and higher.
Eventually he said, "Well, it seems I do not have as much power as you would have me believe, I hope you have learned something today.
That even someone as powerful as me cannot rule the sea nor hold the oceans in the hollow of his hand."
People, this is just like technology, it is always changing and always advancing but you are not so powerful that you can stop change.
You can stick to your old comfortable ways if you want to and resist the changes taking place in the world, but the changes will still take place, and eventually things will have changed so much that the world will become alien to you.
2 years ago when I ordered my new van I considered Lithium and quite frankly, at that time, as much as I could see the benefits, after doing the maths the cost outweighed the benefits.
Yes, even a short space in history as this and a 100AH lithium was at least $1,000, just for a single battery, and then there was the added cost of specialised controllers and chargers etc.
So, I got 2x 120AH AGM's installed.
Well, after 16 months of constant free camping use, in September one of the AGM's started playing up and then eventually it basically up and died and would pull down the good AGM.
It's 400 cycles were all used up and even with sun all day we would experience low voltage disconnect by the fridge in the wee hours every night.
If I didn't do something about it quick smart the other AGM would be irreparably damaged too
I could have stuck with the old tried and tested technology and just gone out and bought a cheapo $250 AGM but sooner rather than later the other one would also fail (and quite frankly most of the cheapo AGM's fail prematurely) so I should really be considering quality branded AGMs and they run out for around $400 for 100AH.
So, for usable capacity to 50% DOD, one 100AH AGM would give me 50AH or $800 for two batteries to give me 100AH without shortening their lifespan with deep discharges..
Once again, I considered Lithiums, except now a 100AH LiFePO4 battery is $500, has an inbuilt BMS with cell balancing and charging control circuits that allow it to simply be a 'drop-in-replacement', and they can be paralleled and provide almost 100% DOD for a minimum of 2000 cycles or approx. 8,000 cycles at 30% DOD.
So, for 60% of the cost of two AGM's, you can now buy a single LiFePO4 to give you the same capacity weighing in at 13kg instead of 76kg.
Or for just 20% more money than 2x AGMs, you can buy two LiFePO4 100AH giving you the usable capacity of 400AH of AGMs and they will likely have a lifespan of between 4 to 20 times longer.
Needless to say, I went down the LiFePO4 track and haven't looked back.
The improvements in charging times and reliability are chalk and cheese.
And that folks, is why vanners get all evangelical about their Lithium batteries and can't stop spouting on and on about how good they are now compared to what they had.
PS.
It's not all roses, depending on your usage, there is a downside to Lithium ion batteries, but unless you intend spending winter periods camping in the high country this wont be a problem for you in Australia.
Unlike lead acid batteries that carry out an actual physical and chemical change during the charging and discharging process, lithium cells simply move ions into and out of lithium's crystalline structure.
This means that whilst they can be discharged between temperatures -45C and 80C, it is almost impossible to force ions back into the Lithium crystal structure at temperatures below -3C.
That means you can't charge lithium cells if their temperatures are much below freezing.
So you need to keep them indoors in freezing climates.
blaze said
11:01 PM Jan 16, 2020
Hylife wrote:
This thread reminds me of the story of the 8th century wise King Canute.
Whilst walking along a beach he became sick and tired of hearing the bullsh!t suck-up stories of how powerful and mighty he was and that no-one and nothing was above him. So, he ordered a chair be bought to him and placed at the waters edge. He then asked his officers if they believed him so powerful that if he should give the order to the ocean for the waves to not come in it would stop because he commanded it? Unable to see sense they agreed it would because the whole world bowed before him. So to prove how foolish they were he sat down and gave the order "I command you to come no further". The tide of course continued to come in as it always did, rising higher and higher. Eventually he said, "Well, it seems I do not have as much power as you would have me believe, I hope you have learned something today. That even someone as powerful as me cannot rule the sea nor hold the oceans in the hollow of his hand."
People, this is just like technology, it is always changing and always advancing but you are not so powerful that you can stop change. You can stick to your old comfortable ways if you want to and resist the changes taking place in the world, but the changes will still take place, and eventually things will have changed so much that the world will become alien to you.
2 years ago when I ordered my new van I considered Lithium and quite frankly, at that time, as much as I could see the benefits, after doing the maths the cost outweighed the benefits. Yes, even a short space in history as this and a 100AH lithium was at least $1,000, just for a single battery, and then there was the added cost of specialised controllers and chargers etc. So, I got 2x 120AH AGM's installed. Well, after 16 months of constant free camping use, in September one of the AGM's started playing up and then eventually it basically up and died and would pull down the good AGM. It's 400 cycles were all used up and even with sun all day we would experience low voltage disconnect by the fridge in the wee hours every night. If I didn't do something about it quick smart the other AGM would be irreparably damaged too
I could have stuck with the old tried and tested technology and just gone out and bought a cheapo $250 AGM but sooner rather than later the other one would also fail (and quite frankly most of the cheapo AGM's fail prematurely) so I should really be considering quality branded AGMs and they run out for around $400 for 100AH.
So, for usable capacity to 50% DOD, one 100AH AGM would give me 50AH or $800 for two batteries to give me 100AH without shortening their lifespan with deep discharges..
Once again, I considered Lithiums, except now a 100AH LiFePO4 battery is $500, has an inbuilt BMS with cell balancing and charging control circuits that allow it to simply be a 'drop-in-replacement', and they can be paralleled and provide almost 100% DOD for a minimum of 2000 cycles or approx. 8,000 cycles at 30% DOD.
So, for 60% of the cost of two AGM's, you can now buy a single LiFePO4 to give you the same capacity weighing in at 13kg instead of 76kg. Or for just 20% more money than 2x AGMs, you can buy two LiFePO4 100AH giving you the usable capacity of 400AH of AGMs and they will likely have a lifespan of between 4 to 20 times longer.
Needless to say, I went down the LiFePO4 track and haven't looked back.
The improvements in charging times and reliability are chalk and cheese.
And that folks, is why vanners get all evangelical about their Lithium batteries and can't stop spouting on and on about how good they are now compared to what they had.
PS. It's not all roses, depending on your usage, there is a downside to Lithium ion batteries, but unless you intend spending winter periods camping in the high country this wont be a problem for you in Australia. Unlike lead acid batteries that carry out an actual physical and chemical change during the charging and discharging process, lithium cells simply move ions into and out of lithium's crystalline structure. This means that whilst they can be discharged between temperatures -45C and 80C, it is almost impossible to force ions back into the Lithium crystal structure at temperatures below -3C. That means you can't charge lithium cells if their temperatures are much below freezing. So you need to keep them indoors in freezing climates.
Maybe, but we get sick of listening to all the hype and all mighty power
cheers
blaze
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:23 AM Jan 17, 2020
Another sales pitch?
If you want to advertise, pay the fee and put your ad up with the rest.
Cheers,
Peter
jegog said
12:52 PM Jan 17, 2020
Technology developed and today's solutions get replaced by newer technology which in turn will be itself replaced in the future. Monash are working on Lithium sulpha cells which can have 6 times the storage capacity og lithium-ion cells. MIT and others are working on flow batteries which I think will be the solution for vehicles.
The biggest problem with lithium-ion is that they are subject to thermal runaway and thus inherently unstable. They need rare metals for their electrodes and the electrolyte is flammable and will burn your skin. With all these flaws they will disappear just as quick as NiCad and metal-hydride dis when lithium-ion batteries were developed as a replacement.
Just be aware of the maximum current limitations of many "drop in" lithium batteries.
This one is 150A. https://www.jaycar.com.au/12-8v-100ah-lithium-deep-cycle-battery/p/SB2215
An AGM of similar capacity would have short term discharge capacity of about 3 X that (I use a 125Ah AGM for cranking the OKA and winching that has 600A discharge capacity).
It also says that the standard recharge rate is 0.5A. I would hope that this is an error.
It is also 3X the cost of an AGM of that capacity, so it needs to have some very good features to compensate for that.
Buyer beware.
Cheers,
Peter
hi
1x fixed panel 160--200watt 160watt glass bifold = 200$ delivered
1x portable 160watt bifold = 200watt delivered
1 x 25 amp projecta DC to dc charger 250-300$$ car altenator and solar input
1x Projecta 240v 21 amp charger 200$
wiring cables connectors etc 200$
Labour DIY
Whilst walking along a beach he became sick and tired of hearing the bullsh!t suck-up stories of how powerful and mighty he was and that no-one and nothing was above him.
So, he ordered a chair be bought to him and placed at the waters edge.
He then asked his officers if they believed him so powerful that if he should give the order to the ocean for the waves to not come in it would stop because he commanded it?
Unable to see sense they agreed it would because the whole world bowed before him.
So to prove how foolish they were he sat down and gave the order "I command you to come no further".
The tide of course continued to come in as it always did, rising higher and higher.
Eventually he said, "Well, it seems I do not have as much power as you would have me believe, I hope you have learned something today.
That even someone as powerful as me cannot rule the sea nor hold the oceans in the hollow of his hand."
People, this is just like technology, it is always changing and always advancing but you are not so powerful that you can stop change.
You can stick to your old comfortable ways if you want to and resist the changes taking place in the world, but the changes will still take place, and eventually things will have changed so much that the world will become alien to you.
2 years ago when I ordered my new van I considered Lithium and quite frankly, at that time, as much as I could see the benefits, after doing the maths the cost outweighed the benefits.
Yes, even a short space in history as this and a 100AH lithium was at least $1,000, just for a single battery, and then there was the added cost of specialised controllers and chargers etc.
So, I got 2x 120AH AGM's installed.
Well, after 16 months of constant free camping use, in September one of the AGM's started playing up and then eventually it basically up and died and would pull down the good AGM.
It's 400 cycles were all used up and even with sun all day we would experience low voltage disconnect by the fridge in the wee hours every night.
If I didn't do something about it quick smart the other AGM would be irreparably damaged too
I could have stuck with the old tried and tested technology and just gone out and bought a cheapo $250 AGM but sooner rather than later the other one would also fail (and quite frankly most of the cheapo AGM's fail prematurely) so I should really be considering quality branded AGMs and they run out for around $400 for 100AH.
So, for usable capacity to 50% DOD, one 100AH AGM would give me 50AH or $800 for two batteries to give me 100AH without shortening their lifespan with deep discharges..
Once again, I considered Lithiums, except now a 100AH LiFePO4 battery is $500, has an inbuilt BMS with cell balancing and charging control circuits that allow it to simply be a 'drop-in-replacement', and they can be paralleled and provide almost 100% DOD for a minimum of 2000 cycles or approx. 8,000 cycles at 30% DOD.
So, for 60% of the cost of two AGM's, you can now buy a single LiFePO4 to give you the same capacity weighing in at 13kg instead of 76kg.
Or for just 20% more money than 2x AGMs, you can buy two LiFePO4 100AH giving you the usable capacity of 400AH of AGMs and they will likely have a lifespan of between 4 to 20 times longer.
Needless to say, I went down the LiFePO4 track and haven't looked back.
The improvements in charging times and reliability are chalk and cheese.
And that folks, is why vanners get all evangelical about their Lithium batteries and can't stop spouting on and on about how good they are now compared to what they had.
PS.
It's not all roses, depending on your usage, there is a downside to Lithium ion batteries, but unless you intend spending winter periods camping in the high country this wont be a problem for you in Australia.
Unlike lead acid batteries that carry out an actual physical and chemical change during the charging and discharging process, lithium cells simply move ions into and out of lithium's crystalline structure.
This means that whilst they can be discharged between temperatures -45C and 80C, it is almost impossible to force ions back into the Lithium crystal structure at temperatures below -3C.
That means you can't charge lithium cells if their temperatures are much below freezing.
So you need to keep them indoors in freezing climates.
Maybe, but we get sick of listening to all the hype and all mighty power
cheers
blaze
If you want to advertise, pay the fee and put your ad up with the rest.
Cheers,
Peter
The biggest problem with lithium-ion is that they are subject to thermal runaway and thus inherently unstable. They need rare metals for their electrodes and the electrolyte is flammable and will burn your skin. With all these flaws they will disappear just as quick as NiCad and metal-hydride dis when lithium-ion batteries were developed as a replacement.