If caravan dealers etc spent more time fixing faults and helping to ensure they don't happen so much in the first place, they wouldn't have all that spare time to invade caravan forums, bitchin' about customers with legitimate complaints to air.

Cheers, John.

mumpedo wrote:

---

Montie wrote:

A definition of a major fault, safety or otherwise, is one that cannot be rectified or is very difficult to do so.

...A minor fault is one that can be rectified and that is exactly what all reputable dealers do.

Montie
-----------------

Montie, may I suggest that you read this document: 'Consumer guarantees - A guide for businesses and legal practitioners'. (www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Consumer%20guarantees%20-%20A%20guide%20for%20businesses%20and%20legal%20practitioners.pdf)

The term is not major fault but major failure. Your definition is only one of five included in the Australian Consumer Law. See page 19. There is also a sixth ground for rejecting a product -- where repairs have been sought by the consumer and they are either refused or take an unreasonable amount of time.

So it appears that you may not be fully aware of your responsibilities under the law.

The first ground to claim a major failure, reject the product and claim a refund or replacement is one that most people are unaware of. It is the 'reasonable consumer test'. From that document:
" a reasonable consumer would not have bought the goods if they had known about the problem. For example, no reasonable consumer would buy a washing machine if they knew the motor was going to burn out after three months"

So as a dealer, do you think a reasonable consumer would purchase a brand new, full priced, $70 000 plus RV if they knew it would have multiple defects, say for example the ones you believed to be minor "a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc". If you think so, I suggest you do some market research to find out for sure because from what I am hearing on other forums most people believe that their very expensive RV should be defect free. If they were told in advance about water leaks, poor sealing, that their indicator would blow fuses, brakes might have problems and then the dealer will tell them to go to the appliance manufacturer for the stove and the fridge, I suggest they would turn around and walk out and not only would they not buy that RV, they would not buy that brand and they would not buy from you.

On the point of being defect free, the Australian Consumer Law states that to be of acceptable quality a product must be defect free. Most dealers and manufacturers will claim that it is a caravan, there is no way it can be free of defects, it is hand built. I am pretty sure I have read that from you too. Well so is an aeroplane and I am sure we would both hope that it is defect free when we fly in it.

The issue here is the duty of care of the manufacturer and the dealer. If there is proper quality control and the proper pre-delivery check that is supposed to happen from reputable businesses, all apparent defects would be rectified before the customer picks up the RV. Only latent defects or those that cannot be tested would remain. This is not what is happening. The vast majority of owners I have read about report having to either go back to the dealer for repairs or doing the repairs themselves as they are too far away.

I know the consumer law because I run a business and make it my business to know. I also own a caravan and am a member of many forums and Facebook groups about caravans including lemons, nightmares and shonkies.

I suggest you fully acquaint yourself with the Australian Consumer Law before making statements about definitions of major failures and potentially misleading readers of this forum about their real consumer rights.

Bazza

-- Edited by mumpedo on Friday 10th of February 2017 07:07:27 PM

---

 Wow! You have been busy on Google!

And all that keyboard typing!!

Montie

montie wrote:

---

 Wow! You have been busy on Google!

And all that keyboard typing!!

Montie

---

 Come on Montie , dont play that game . The guy has done his homework .

Dmaxer makes some good points dont you think ?

meetoo wrote:

---

If caravan dealers etc spent more time fixing faults and helping to ensure they don't happen so much in the first place, they wouldn't have all that spare time to invade caravan forums, bitchin' about customers with legitimate complaints to air.

Cheers, John.

---

 And if some buyers stopped bitching on forums and actually addressed the issues in an organized fashion and communicated with the dealer/manufacturer they might actually get a result.

All you lot are doing is making it more difficult for the poor bloke who has a genuine issue to get any satisfaction.

Caravan hypochondriacs with a hysterical overtone.

Monty

montie wrote:

---

 

Caravan hypochondriacs with a hysterical overtone.

Monty

 

---

 See there you go again Montie , playing the man and not the ball . This doesnt help you industry at all IMO .

Again I ask for your thoughts on Dmaxers comments re lawyers ? 

montie wrote:

---

meetoo wrote:

---

If caravan dealers etc spent more time fixing faults and helping to ensure they don't happen so much in the first place, they wouldn't have all that spare time to invade caravan forums, bitchin' about customers with legitimate complaints to air.

Cheers, John.

---

 And if some buyers stopped bitching on forums and actually addressed the issues in an organized fashion and communicated with the dealer/manufacturer they might actually get a result.

All you lot are doing is making it more difficult for the poor bloke who has a genuine issue to get any satisfaction.

Caravan hypochondriacs with a hysterical overtone.

Monty

 

---

 Monty, name calling ( hypochondriacs) is what children do, I thought you were a respectable adult caravan/rv dealer.

montie wrote:    Snip -  'All you lot are doing is making it more difficult for the poor bloke who has a genuine issue to get any satisfaction.'

Are you saying that, because of customers with legitimate complaints that air them publicly, the poor bloke with an issue has an even harder time to get any satisfaction with his complaint? WOW! Remind me not to buy a van from any one with that opinion of some poor bloke who buys a van with problems.

Also you keep insinuating my van has problems. I never said it did or didn't. One should read what I wrote properly and not make up things.

My complaints, like others have not been about getting a problem fixed, or dealers not fixing them. It has only ever been about the fact that all of the minor problems that so many have, shouldn't be there in the first place.

Your replies to me would be much more appreciated if they were on the topics I actually addressed and not about other stuff that has nothing to do with me. Before writing any more smart remarks please refer to line one of this post - about children

Cheers, John.

montie wrote:

 And if some buyers stopped bitching on forums and actually addressed the issues in an organized fashion and communicated with the dealer/manufacturer they might actually get a result.

All you lot are doing is making it more difficult for the poor bloke who has a genuine issue to get any satisfaction.

Caravan hypochondriacs with a hysterical overtone.

Monty

---

 many disgruntled owners do try to communicate with dealers/manufacturers via email/phone only to be ignored or fobbed off

Swoffer wrote:

---

montie wrote:

---

 

Caravan hypochondriacs with a hysterical overtone.

Monty

 

---

 See there you go again Montie , playing the man and not the ball . This doesnt help you industry at all IMO .

 

Again I ask for your thoughts on Dmaxers comments re lawyers ? 

---

 DMaxer made a very good point and I totally agree with him. If you need legal advice go to a qualified solicitor who knows what he is talking about and don't listen to forum know it alls.

You would agree with that Swoffer, wouldn't you?

Montie

Possum3 wrote:

---

Montie, may I suggest that you actually refer to the lemon forum and take note of the organised fashion that has been taken and the ACL Reports and submissions - which are actually getting a result; www.facebook.com/groups/lemoncaravansinaus/files/

---

Gday...

 it's a closed group Possum  can't see or read nuffin 

cheers - John

brickies wrote:

---

Maybe it time to start a post about the good experiences we have had with good dealers , A lot of people on this forum like to talk about bad things not good things .

---

 Brickies,

Unfortunately it is a fact that the minority make the most noise especially on forums such as this.

This is also true of the industry where a minority of rogue manufacturers get the most attention which reflects badly on the majority who are doing the right thing.

The majority in the industry are good dealers and manufacturers who honour their commitments to the buyers.

Montie

rockylizard wrote:

---

Possum3 wrote:

---

Montie, may I suggest that you actually refer to the lemon forum and take note of the organised fashion that has been taken and the ACL Reports and submissions - which are actually getting a result; www.facebook.com/groups/lemoncaravansinaus/files/

---

Gday...

 it's a closed group Possum  can't see or read nuffin 

cheers - John

---

 No dealers or manufacturers allowed.

"Cursing" is not allowed either so that would rule me out anyway.

Montie

montie wrote:

---

 

You would agree with that Swoffer, wouldn't you?

Montie

---

 I would , though I would stop short of using phrases like forum know it alls . 

I was however (as Im sure you are aware  ) talking about the entirity of his post not just a small protion ?

DMaxer wrote:

---

It has never changed . Everyone is entitled to legal representation through direct representation or conferring with their lawyer in a basic tribunal. I have practised law for more than than thirty five years and has always been the case. It limits a party claiming costs, that is why it is not lawyer friendly. But what would I know? I don't have Facebook, belong to other forums or run a small business. I also don't have a big gun or stand with hands on hips.

---

 Was this the one you were referring to Swoffer?

You've lost me on this one. That's the only other post I can find.

Montie

montie wrote:

---

 

You've lost me on this one. That's the only other post I can find.

Montie

-- Edited by montie on Saturday 11th of February 2017 11:39:31 AM

---

 Yeh my mistake sorry (I'm not much good at this keyboard warrior thing)

I got my Dmaxer mixed up with my Mumpedo , this is thepassage that I was reffering to Montie , you didnt actually address the content .

"""Montie, may I suggest that you read this document: 'Consumer guarantees - A guide for businesses and legal practitioners'. (www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Consumer%20guarantees%20-%20A%20guide%20for%20businesses%20and%20legal%20practitioners.pdf) 

The term is not major fault but major failure. Your definition is only one of five included in the Australian Consumer Law. See page 19. There is also a sixth ground for rejecting a product -- where repairs have been sought by the consumer and they are either refused or take an unreasonable amount of time.

So it appears that you may not be fully aware of your responsibilities under the law.

The first ground to claim a major failure, reject the product and claim a refund or replacement is one that most people are unaware of. It is the 'reasonable consumer test'. From that document:
" a reasonable consumer would not have bought the goods if they had known about the problem. For example, no reasonable consumer would buy a washing machine if they knew the motor was going to burn out after three months"

So as a dealer, do you think a reasonable consumer would purchase a brand new, full priced, $70 000 plus RV if they knew it would have multiple defects, say for example the ones you believed to be minor "a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc". If you think so, I suggest you do some market research to find out for sure because from what I am hearing on other forums most people believe that their very expensive RV should be defect free. If they were told in advance about water leaks, poor sealing, that their indicator would blow fuses, brakes might have problems and then the dealer will tell them to go to the appliance manufacturer for the stove and the fridge, I suggest they would turn around and walk out and not only would they not buy that RV, they would not buy that brand and they would not buy from you.

On the point of being defect free, the Australian Consumer Law states that to be of acceptable quality a product must be defect free. Most dealers and manufacturers will claim that it is a caravan, there is no way it can be free of defects, it is hand built. I am pretty sure I have read that from you too. Well so is an aeroplane and I am sure we would both hope that it is defect free when we fly in it.

The issue here is the duty of care of the manufacturer and the dealer. If there is proper quality control and the proper pre-delivery check that is supposed to happen from reputable businesses, all apparent defects would be rectified before the customer picks up the RV. Only latent defects or those that cannot be tested would remain. This is not what is happening. The vast majority of owners I have read about report having to either go back to the dealer for repairs or doing the repairs themselves as they are too far away.

I know the consumer law because I run a business and make it my business to know. I also own a caravan and am a member of many forums and Facebook groups about caravans including lemons, nightmares and shonkies.

I suggest you fully acquaint yourself with the Australian Consumer Law before making statements about definitions of major failures and potentially misleading readers of this forum about their real consumer rights.

Bazza """

Swoffer wrote:

---

montie wrote:

---

 

You've lost me on this one. That's the only other post I can find.

Montie

-- Edited by montie on Saturday 11th of February 2017 11:39:31 AM

---

 Yeh my mistake sorry (I'm not much good at this keyboard warrior thing)

I got my Dmaxer mixed up with my Mumpedo , this is thepassage that I was reffering to Montie , you didnt actually address the content .

"""Montie, may I suggest that you read this document: 'Consumer guarantees - A guide for businesses and legal practitioners'. (www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Consumer%20guarantees%20-%20A%20guide%20for%20businesses%20and%20legal%20practitioners.pdf) 

The term is not major fault but major failure. Your definition is only one of five included in the Australian Consumer Law. See page 19. There is also a sixth ground for rejecting a product -- where repairs have been sought by the consumer and they are either refused or take an unreasonable amount of time.

So it appears that you may not be fully aware of your responsibilities under the law.

The first ground to claim a major failure, reject the product and claim a refund or replacement is one that most people are unaware of. It is the 'reasonable consumer test'. From that document:
" a reasonable consumer would not have bought the goods if they had known about the problem. For example, no reasonable consumer would buy a washing machine if they knew the motor was going to burn out after three months"

So as a dealer, do you think a reasonable consumer would purchase a brand new, full priced, $70 000 plus RV if they knew it would have multiple defects, say for example the ones you believed to be minor "a leaking hatch, stove not igniting, fridge not working on 12volt, squeaky brakes, indicator light not working, poor silicon finishing, etc., etc". If you think so, I suggest you do some market research to find out for sure because from what I am hearing on other forums most people believe that their very expensive RV should be defect free. If they were told in advance about water leaks, poor sealing, that their indicator would blow fuses, brakes might have problems and then the dealer will tell them to go to the appliance manufacturer for the stove and the fridge, I suggest they would turn around and walk out and not only would they not buy that RV, they would not buy that brand and they would not buy from you.

On the point of being defect free, the Australian Consumer Law states that to be of acceptable quality a product must be defect free. Most dealers and manufacturers will claim that it is a caravan, there is no way it can be free of defects, it is hand built. I am pretty sure I have read that from you too. Well so is an aeroplane and I am sure we would both hope that it is defect free when we fly in it.

The issue here is the duty of care of the manufacturer and the dealer. If there is proper quality control and the proper pre-delivery check that is supposed to happen from reputable businesses, all apparent defects would be rectified before the customer picks up the RV. Only latent defects or those that cannot be tested would remain. This is not what is happening. The vast majority of owners I have read about report having to either go back to the dealer for repairs or doing the repairs themselves as they are too far away.

I know the consumer law because I run a business and make it my business to know. I also own a caravan and am a member of many forums and Facebook groups about caravans including lemons, nightmares and shonkies.

I suggest you fully acquaint yourself with the Australian Consumer Law before making statements about definitions of major failures and potentially misleading readers of this forum about their real consumer rights.

Bazza """

 

---

 Swoffer,

I would be taking DMaxers advice and asking somebody that knows..ie a qualified practicing solicitor.

Unlike many members on this forum I have no need to keep up to date with the ins and outs of the exact wording of the Act because we have never had a claim for a major fault and the minor ones we just fix them.

As I stated in an earlier post there are a minority of dealer/manufacturers doing the wrong thing and also a minority of buyers who will never be satisfied and we try to steer clear of both of them where possible.

Ok , sigh,  you;ve worn me down .

There is no problem , everything is peachy , move on folks and just be happy with what you get OK.

I need some panadol 

TIC 

I am always reluctant to post extracts from anything because people tend to use the extract that suits their argument but here is a laymans interpretation from the ACCC website.

It may be helpful and less confusing for some.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund#repair-replacement-or-refund

Monty