Did your's have a15amp outlet neither you or anyone else said their's did The way I read it all were using a 10amp to 15amp lead.NOT the legal 15<15amp lead. Unlke some I am ready to admit a mistake the very reason Iposted the apology. Your apparent gloating indicates, to me , you have a very small childish mind. kindergarden stage . I do not wish to offend any one on this forum . But Dave's post, I believe goes to far, with personal comments I did put the info out in a friendly manner& not to air knowlege on every subject available like some. I do not believe any of my posts were in the nature of a personal attack such as DAve's I wonder on just how many's behalf you speak. On your last statement about toasters etc, You obviously have problems with understanding the points I am making .But of course like many who try to post on every subject, you are not qualified to speak on elect matters & your posts show that.
Now to throw another little point into the debate. The SA Rules.clearly stipulate that 2 leads should not be joined together when suppling a caravan/moterhome. The reasons are too invo;lved to explain to those with NO elecrical knowledge ..For those with knowledge think loop impedance & voltage drop. The use of the any Clipsal powerboard & an extension lead contavenes that reg & is also illegal. Personal I do not care if some take my advise seriously or not, that's up to them but I am sure many would @ least like to aware of the position rather than just trying to justify what they are doing.
dave06 said
11:42 AM Dec 25, 2009
I said what Jocks looked like and I gave no description of what I made, you made a lot of assumptions and you were proved wrong, you sorta apoligised but ended it with yet another attack on me, gets a bit sickening
I apoligise when I'm incorrect but you attacked me for no good reason,
yet you still continue to attack me even now, obviously you are a very bored man
just take your foot out of your mouth and get on with life, you may even find a freind in here if you stop and talk a bit of sense
I will not say what amperage mine are as, once again, I will not comment on 240
I will continue to do what I am doing, but anyway you have a good xmas, I must go as guests are yelling for me
to attack me for answering other posts is really very silly and childish dont you think, perhaps you need to attend a "grow up course"
-- Edited by dave06 on Friday 25th of December 2009 11:04:24 AM
Cruising Granny said
10:22 PM Dec 25, 2009
... Enter Granny, the adjudicator.
Mr. Bull, it seems you know a lot of detail about this particular topic. Thanks for you input.
Dave is a versatile person to know, and has the respect of many who meet him and cross his path.
Others may have the same respect for you Mr. Bull.
Now in the name of Christmas, peace and good will, let's agree to disagree, accept there may be more than one way to set up a 15amp to 10amp converter connection.
Mr. Bull I don't think it's your place to pass your judgement or disapproval on any of these.
Yeah, I'm a woman. Yeah, I have one of those converter connections, set up by an electrician for about $10.
No one is in any position to judge anyone. Treat each other as equals, and as you and I like to be treated.
God help us Mr. Bull, if you get your t!ts in a tangle over something deep, meaningful, relevant and serious.
JRH said
10:43 PM Dec 25, 2009
Thank God Granny's back.
oldtrack123 said
11:50 PM Dec 25, 2009
Cruising Granny wrote:
... Enter Granny, the adjudicator. Mr. Bull, it seems you know a lot of detail about this particular topic. Thanks for you input. Dave is a versatile person to know, and has the respect of many who meet him and cross his path. Others may have the same respect for you Mr. Bull. Now in the name of Christmas, peace and good will, let's agree to disagree, accept there may be more than one way to set up a 15amp to 10amp converter connection. Mr. Bull I don't think it's your place to pass your judgement or disapproval on any of these. Yeah, I'm a woman. Yeah, I have one of those converter connections, set up by an electrician for about $10. No one is in any position to judge anyone. Treat each other as equals, and as you and I like to be treated. God help us Mr. Bull, if you get your t!ts in a tangle over something deep, meaningful, relevant and serious.
Hi Granny I respect your position as an adjudicator
I have no doubt the Dave has a range of knowledge But He is not electrically qualified I.am qualified . Apart from not being aware that Clipsal now make a 10amp power board with !5 amp outlet all my other statements are correct.
The Australian Standard covering this subject are very explicit Two things explicitly stated are An extension MUST have the same rated plug on each end. The joining of extension leads to supply a caravan motor home etc is NOT ALLOWED
Whether some like it or not any thing which breaches those rules IS ILLEGAL Since this is called a tech thread I did believe that ideas, misunderstandings or things not known should be pointed out & explained as my duty as a qualified electrician.It would seem that that is not acceptable to some who do not want to know otherwise. Your post is not unexpected ,but may wish to consider your position when this forum has members promoting ,either directly or indirectly ,info which is in breach of the regulations.
Other forums have had similar problem as has shown up here with the constant push by some of similar practises Those forums have felt it necessary to post a sticky or a warning post disclaiming any responsibility for info posted I have simply tried to inform the readers of the of the legal implications. I personally do not care what those who do not agree do. But I am sure others who were not aware of the regs would appreciate my info IT IS FACTUAL .IT IS THE LAW. IT IS MANDATORY REGULATIONS
Sadly in the electrical industry ,like many others, there are so called electrician who do not know the rules relevant to caravans & motor homes and as in your case & others make up illegal leads etc. I would like you to read my posts from the start & you will see I am sure that was my intent, but some could just not accept that what they are./were doing, is wrong, is illegal ,is potentially dangerous. If I have hurt some feeling I am sorry but in all honesty I believe I have a duty knowing that is the position to help people to understand. In trying to do that it is often necessary to ask questions to try a see the basis of their misunderstanding, this seems to have got Dave's backup, that was not my intent , If you wish for qualified knowledge relevant to our life style to be posted on this forum you will understand what my point is. If not you may see fit to expel me, as an indication that such info upsets some on the forum. At present it seems you do not have anyone qualified to give the CORRECT but possible unliked FACTS. I will always apologise if a make a mistake . I did on this thread & I ask you to read Dave"s reaction to that apology. Your last line is disturbing if you ,as an adjudicator, do not consider that illegal potentially life threating & dangerous practises are not serious .Perhaps you will make this my last post ,that is up to you. I have a wide range of electrical & engineering experience to offer but it is up to you if you & the members wish to take advantage of that.
Thank you & a late Merry Xmas to you & yours
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 25th of December 2009 11:15:43 PM
Jonathan said
08:23 AM Dec 26, 2009
hear .. hear .. OldTrack .. I support your stand 100% .. !!
DeBe said
10:43 AM Dec 26, 2009
Un fortunately some regulations dont cover real life out in the country, I have 2 x 50Meter 15 Amp extension cords, with 10Amp plugs on them. The reason being I need to run 100Meters to run an electric Jackhammer to dig holes in rock, the reason for 15Amp cords is less voltage drop over the long distance. So un fortunately my leads are not legal thats life. Daryl
oldtrack123 said
11:00 AM Dec 26, 2009
DeBe wrote:
Un fortunately some regulations dont cover real life out in the country, I have 2 x 50Meter 15 Amp extension cords, with 10Amp plugs on them. The reason being I need to run 100Meters to run an electric Jackhammer to dig holes in rock, the reason for 15Amp cords is less voltage drop over the long distance. So un fortunately my leads are not legal thats life. Daryl
De Be
Sorry but you have misunderstood
The use of joined extension leads for running a single devise is quite acceptable Provided they are operated within their current limits &voltage drop .
A van /motor home is not a single devise. It actually can be considered as a sub circuit with many outlets.
But has a specific set of rules covering it due to other factors.
A comment was made about only having to meet the expected load eg 8amps True for a single devise, But the motor home /van is not a single devise it is a mobile multy subcircuit. As such the feed to it has to be suitable for all the connected load less a diversity factor ,. Exactly the same as a house sub circuit Would any one suggest that because they MAY only use say 20 amps in their house the incoming mains should be only 20 amps. The only current legal to overcome thev problem is the Ampfibian
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 10:03:41 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 11:21:23 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 11:28:50 AM
dave06 said
11:33 AM Dec 26, 2009
I do suggest everyone read the posts from start to finish and when you do then just show me where I was giving advice of any kind to anyone, you will also see where the animosity started, you picked on me for no reason, I fired back
you still keep dragging me into your little skewed world, mate I dont want to be any part of this bull**** or any part of you,
I havent given any advice, real or imagined on 240v, I'm not going to give advice, leave me out of your little imaginary world, get a life!
if you werent such a dickhead you may actually be a meaningfull member of our little group
now grow up, forget this bull**** and get on with your own life, me, well I'm off for a week with a group of freinds, to meet some more friends
something you really should try!
oldtrack123 said
11:57 AM Dec 26, 2009
Hi All Yes read all the posts from start to finish , then make your own decision
.I know what I have posted re the illegality of these setups is not good news But. it is fact , it is law, it is a mandatory reg . As I have said I am advising only, I can not make anyone follow my advise . .That is of no concern to me As far as no advice DAve ,your first post on the subject said 'there are other legal ways' You may not have described them but you went on to indirectly support the use of illegal devises. There is no other LEGAL way of connecting a10amp outlet to a van 15amp socket
As a final comment show me where i have posted personal abuse as you have done.???
PS TO ALL I have absolutely no financial gain from my posts.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 11:07:23 AM
dave06 said
12:22 PM Dec 26, 2009
as for other legal ways I told you what Jock has got, you chose to shout me down for it,
you were proven wrong, live with it!
as I said "SHOW ME" where I posted any "advice" on 240V and not what I use, what I use is none of your's or anybody else's business,
the safety of such an implement is my responsibility, what did I say straight after it, I told everyone not to use it even over threat of punishment
I am absolutely fed up with your constant drivel and incessant unprovoked beligerent attacks on me even now you make fasle statements
show where I advised anyone in the early stages (before anger overtook my normal facade) that warranted any attack from you or just plain shut the hell up, easy instructions to follow, even someone as thick as you should get it!
I truly hope this is your "final comment" because quite frankly you really give me the ****s, I have truly never met anyone that has done that before and I have met thousands of people!
I talk to many hundreds more over the phone and through my daily chores but you are truly the first person that has achieved this
I am not the only one with whom you have achieved this, I have many P.M.'s stating the same from folks who dont want to get involved
the ammount of practice that it must have taken to be so annoying would take a lifetime
as for personal abuse you simply will not let up on me, you have made me angrier than I have ever been before, you keep dragging my comments up and inserting things into them that were never there for reasons better known to yourself
do not mention my name in any context again, do not tell any more lies as to my postings and just have this as an end to it!
point as to 15 amp wiring concerns has been made all relevent information has been gone over ad nauseum again all else from here on in is just simply an old mans raving!
leave it at this!
granny you are not an adjudicater but your post is noted and apreciated,
Cruising Granny said
01:01 PM Dec 26, 2009
I have read all the posts on this subject, and quite frankly it's ended up as a record thread with more repetition than anything else on this site.
We have got the message Mr. Bull that you are a qualified "expert" in all things electrical, and you consider the rest of us as not even slightly experienced to comment on the topic.
The poor bloke who started this topic is probably trembling in fear that you will come and condemn him and his electrical practices any day now.
When living in the bush or on the road, we do what we can with what's available to us. If an electrician rigs up at 15/10am converting lead, to me that's qualification enough. Who the hell am I to question his qualifications and experience?
You on the other hand would give him the third degree while you have him bailed up to the back wall with you electrician hands firmly clasped around his neck.
Now Mr. Bull, don't underestimate the intelligence and capabilities of others, because it may turn out that you look the silly one.
This is the impression I have gleaned from you entries here on this forum. You have repeatedly repeated yourself, telling us numerous times, that unless you or a fellow electrical expert have performed this task, it's illegal - bearing in mind you have probably not viewed any of them.
So Mr. Bull, what are you like at reading maps, changing tyres, following instructions and cooking a roast?
You don't have to answer, but in the scheme of things, everything is relative, wherever we are on the planet and in life.
While you have judged us to be totally incompetent in the electrical field, I have determined you are very single minded and pedantic on this one subject, but you haven't shared your wisdom with a "legal" option, on this or any other "nomadic" matters.
See you on the road sometime.
oldtrack123 said
02:50 PM Dec 26, 2009
Hi Granny It seems I was mistaken I BELIEVED you were an official moderator of this site.
] From Dave's post""granny you are not an adjudicater but your post is noted and apreciated, " It seems you like to pose as someone you are not.
. Obviously from your posts you are a great friend of DAve & are sticking up for him On that I will say no more
Re my other qualifications you may just may be surprised !! If I am allowed to stay on this forum YOU & others, in time, will find the extent of that knowledge. It is knowledge gained over many years in many areas of Working for a very large engineering co in many responsible positions,{not just a backyarder.] One thing as I stated before I DO NOT POST ON SUBJECT ON WHICH I HAVE LIMITED KNOWLEDGE,unless I preface them with:"I believe "or " to my knowledge""
I also OBJECT to the use of my surname in your post & how you gained access to it.
I think that would be looked on with DISTASTE by most forum posters.
I think YOU need to look @ YOUR forum manners You could have sent your message by PM If you wished to use my name but it shows little respect on YOUR part for others Privacy
Probably sowing another nail in my coffin but do hope the genuine owner/ moderator is a fair minded unbiased person.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:04:20 PM
Basil Faulty said
03:09 PM Dec 26, 2009
Hmmmmm Ok Oldtrack please provide via cut and paste the wording from the SAA wireing rules, relevant to this and Vans generally so that we can evaluate them for our own specific uses. Or have I missed this?
It's OK if you want to take the line of pedant but I think if you do so you should back your statements with the relevant facts.
Now in the case I mentioned I can't find the wording that says that it is illegal to replace a 10 amp socket with a 15 amp socket if the supply current is limited to 10 amps. The reverse ie putting a 15 amp socket on a 10 amp lead is. This of course is the case with the existing 10 amp leads with circuit breaker/ RCD in the lead. Ahhhh yes I hear you say it is illegal to put a socket on a lead unless you are licenced to do so however it is not actually an offence, certainly not in the ACT anyway. But if you do do so please note the wiring diagram on the 15 amp socket provided so that non combatants can do the job without causing any personal loss or injury. One other point to consider is this, before spending $240 on this get a sparky to quote you on a 15 amp GPO in a weatherproof box, I think you may be pleasantly surprised. And as my final point just remember that each of these Ampfibian devices may carry an approval number but are they tested individually and assembeled under SAA supervision?
STOP PRESS As from July 2013 ALL ELECTRIC "extension" LEADS OVER 10M long or any electric lead used in the outdoors will be required to be fitted with an "integral earth leakage and over current device"
JRH said
03:12 PM Dec 26, 2009
There are legalities and practicalities, you sir have stated the legalities ad nauseum. I have stated a couple of times that my lead is illegal in the strict sense of the term but the practicality of the matter is when I use my lead it is to run my fridge and only my fridge, therefore I cannot exceed the 10 amp rated ciruit at my home.
I believe that by now you have got your message across that these leads as used by many people are indeed illegal so please give us all a break and let the matter drop.
We know they are illegal, we know that they can cause a problem if we draw in excess of 10 amps. So with this knowledge by now firmly embedded in our so limited brains we will use our leads with the utmost caution.
PS. Editited for a spelling mistake before the spelling police start up as well.
-- Edited by JRH on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:14:03 PM
Disco Duck said
04:09 PM Dec 26, 2009
Oldtrack........you are obviously well qualified and know the law as far as electricity is concerned. I am sure that we all, as van owners, appreciate the information you have posted here. It is good information and something we should all know......wether we adopt these rules or not is irrelevant. You were good enough to point them out........ several times........so now it is up to us!!
My problem here is that I do not like smug people and you seem to me to have a very smug attitude which .....in my opinion........was evident from your first posting in response to Popeye's question.......and I quote:
Hi The replies should be interesting Since it is the ONLY LEGAL way to connect a 15amp inlet to a 10amp outlet.
Instead of answering Popeye's question......you sat back and waited for someone else to answer it so you could spout off and shoot them down with your knowledge. I would have thought a better way of going about it would have been to answer the question.......spout the legalities and then sit back and answer any questions any of us may have had. You would have attracted far more interest that way.
This is my opinion ...........................and as we have said before......opnions are like Ar*eholes........everyone has one and they all stink!!
Disco Duck said
04:11 PM Dec 26, 2009
I actually meant to have a talk to you about your spelling JRH.......it is atrocious.!!
JRH said
04:22 PM Dec 26, 2009
Disco Duck wrote:
I actually meant to have a talk to you about your spelling JRH.......it is atrocious.!!
Tanks a lot Ducky, I wood apre............. bugga it u now wat I meen.
oldtrack123 said
04:28 PM Dec 26, 2009
Basil Faulty wrote:
#1 Hmmmmm Ok Oldtrack please provide via cut and paste the wording from the SAA wireing rules, relevant to this and Vans generally so that we can evaluate them for our own specific uses. Or have I missed this?
It's OK if you want to take the line of pedant but I think if you do so you could back your statements with the relevant facts.
#2 Now in the case I mentioned I can't find the wording that says that it is illegal to replace a 10 amp socket with a 15 amp socket if the supply current is limited to 10 amps. #3 The reverse ie putting a 15 amp socket on a 10 amp lead is. This of course is the case with the existing 10 amp leads with circuit breaker/ RCD in the lead.
#4 Ahhhh yes I hear you say it is illegal to put a socket on a lead unless you are licenced to do so however it is not actually an offence, certainly not in the ACT anyway. But if you do do so please note the wiring diagram on the 15 amp socket provided so that non combatants can do the job without causing any personal loss or injury.
#5 One other point to consider is this, before spending $240 on this get a sparky to quote you on a 15 amp GPO in a weatherproof box, I think you may be pleasantly surprised. And as my final point just remember that each of these Ampfibian devices may carry an approval number but are they tested individually and assembeled under SAA supervision?
STOP PRESS As from July 2013 ALL ELECTRIC "extension" LEADS OVER 10M long or any electric lead used in the outdoors will be required to be fitted with an "integral earth leakage and over current device"
Hi Basil
#1 I am sorry but the rules are not available on the internet so can not copy &paste They also copywrite protected They are available from Global supplies #2 This is also covered the wording is: an extension lead shall have the SAME rating plug & socket[ not a10 & a 1515 opr any other combination]
#3 These are approved & have the revelent approval number attached
#4 I have already said you will not get jailed for it,but should an accident occur you will be in very deep water These standard are made to protect lives & property
#5 Yes a very simple & legal angement but that is not this thread is about.It is about extension leads .See OP
#6 Clearly a riduculous question , nor is ANYTHING ELSE ,cars, home appliances, switch gear, baby cots & strollers you name it . Virtually every thing is covered by AUS standards ,some may only be recommendations. Others such as electrical & gas are MANDATORY. Perhaps you do not understand that
Oldtrack........you are obviously well qualified and know the law as far as electricity is concerned. I am sure that we all, as van owners, appreciate the information you have posted here. It is good information and something we should all know......wether we adopt these rules or not is irrelevant. You were good enough to point them out........ several times........so now it is up to us!!
My problem here is that I do not like smug people and you seem to me to have a very smug attitude which .....in my opinion........was evident from your first posting in response to Popeye's question.......and I quote:
Hi The replies should be interesting Since it is the ONLY LEGAL way to connect a 15amp inlet to a 10amp outlet.
Instead of answering Popeye's question......you sat back and waited for someone else to answer it so you could spout off and shoot them down with your knowledge. I would have thought a better way of going about it would have been to answer the question.......spout the legalities and then sit back and answer any questions any of us may have had. You would have attracted far more interest that way.
This is my opinion ...........................and as we have said before......opnions are like Ar*eholes........everyone has one and they all stink!!
Hi Disco
In hind sight it may have been better, but do really think it would have changed the support for the status Quo
But I did not just say "this will be interesting" I "said this will be interesting as it [meaning the Ampfibian ]is the only legal way" Etc [In hindsight I probably should have added" A van / motor home camper trailer etc. But since the OP was relevant to vans I did not think that necessary A clear statement ,others choose to disagree with me."
As DeBe said, he has seen it go pear shaped on other forums
Ps Disco I assure that it was not my intent to put anyone down Over the years I have found that it is easier to find out what people believe & then endevour to correct those ideas , rather than spout a whole book full of info If asked I will endevour to explain further on the questions I do understand your views but cannot entirely agree -- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 03:51:51 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 04:00:05 PM
Cruising Granny said
05:05 PM Dec 26, 2009
A sense of humour "oldtrack" you certainly do not have.
To attack me for interloping in the name of peace and practicality certainly demonstrates that.
I could have called myself a mediator or anything else. Anyone who's familiar with this forum would have understood my intentions. Dave often being the exception. But that is not for you to worry about.
What I want to understand is, why can't you let this go? You've responded to every comment, in a negatively critical way. Nothing positive or encouraging from you. Why?
Were you thinking we were all empty headed nobodies until you graced us with your electrically qualified presence? Never underestimate the intelligence of others, especially before you even know them.
Your name is on your profile which is accessible to everyone who uses this site and its forum.
No detective skills required there. I preferred to address you in that manner rather than by you avator. My choice. Maybe more descriptive than your avatar.
Now I think it's in everyone's best interest if we keep our contributions on a positive note as much as possible.
I'm only a minor contributor on this forum. I contribute often, but my technical skills are limited, however, my literary skills are not.
Can we get back to having fun while sharing on The Grey Nomads.
Whether you stay or go is entirely you own decision.
Just don't bother attacking me again, trying to degrade me or discredit me. The problem is yours.
-- Edited by Cruising Granny on Saturday 26th of December 2009 04:06:55 PM
Basil Faulty said
06:02 PM Dec 26, 2009
The device pictured on the web page is the prototype? It has to be....If it's a productoin jobby then it's illegal, now work out why. The answer is staring you in the face...
oldtrack123 said
06:25 PM Dec 26, 2009
Hi Basil Perhaps if you can post a link to actual web page you are referring to ,I will comment.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 05:26:03 PM
jimricho said
06:37 PM Dec 26, 2009
Hasn't this topic run its race?????
Basil Faulty said
07:14 PM Dec 26, 2009
jimricho wrote:
Hasn't this topic run its race?????
Jim I beg your indulgence until the delivery of the coup de grace
Basil Faulty said
07:16 PM Dec 26, 2009
oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi Basil Perhaps if you can post a link to actual web page you are referring to ,I will comment.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 05:26:03 PM
Q. In What Instances is RCD Protection Required for Caravans (Connectable Installations)?
A. In all new caravans/motor homes, etc, RCD protection is required when AS/NZS 3001 is being used as a means of compliance to provide personal protection. Note: RCDs in caravans are required to be double pole.
Q. Caravans Manufactured to AS/NZS 3000 Have an In-line RCD in the Supply Cord. Why Change to an RCD in the Caravan if the In-line RCD Needs Replacing?
A. The in-line RCDs are failing due to water ingress through the IEC 60309 plug top and flexible cable cores and are suffering mechanical damage due to being dropped or being run over by vehicles. RCD protection mounted in the switchboard protects the caravan installation but the supply lead is unprotected. However, this is no different to the majority of caravan supply leads when connected in a caravan park by an IEC 60309 plug.
Q. Does a Caravan Have to be Upgraded to the New RCD Requirements and Have the Neutral to Earth Link Removed to Obtain the Next WoEF?
A. No. Upgrading to new RCD requirements is not retrospective or mandated by the Electricity Regulations. However, upgrading is recommended. A bulletin detailing the work required for the upgrade is available from Energy Safety (Ph. 0508 377 4636) or download from here.
Q. What are the RCD Requirements for a Permanently Connected Caravan?
A. If a caravan is permanently connected to a supply of electricity, the provisions of AS/NZS 3000 apply, as the caravan then forms part of the electrical installation providing the supply. Refer to AS/NZS 3001 clause 1.1(i).
Q. What Proposals are Being Considered to Upgrade Old Caravans to AS/NZS 3001 Requirements to Provide RCD Protection?
A. While it is not proposed at this time to mandate upgrading of existing caravans to AS/NZS 3001 requirements (the provision of a RCD in the caravan switchboard and removal of neutral to earth link), a bulletin detailing the work required for the upgrade is available from Energy Safety (Ph. 0508 377 4636) or download from here.
Q. What are the Requirements for RCDs in Caravan Park Service Pillars?
A. Socket outlets to AS/NZS 3112 (three pin flat pin socket outlets) are required to be RCD protected. Socket outlets to IEC 60309 are not required to be RCD protected.
Q. What Internal Wiring Sizes are Permitted for Existing Caravans for WoEF Renewals?
A. The caravan internal wiring which complied with the Electrical Wiring Regulations, ECP 1 or AS/NZS 3000 section 701 requirements in force when the caravan was manufactured are acceptable for the renewal of a WoEF.
Q. Who may Undertake Caravan Park Re-inspections?
A. Electrical inspectors with a valid practising licence or those approved by the Secretary. The requirements for re-inspection are contained in NZS 3019.
Q. What are the Requirements for Caravan On-board Generators?
A. The requirements for the changeover switch to select the supply source to which the caravan is to be connected is given in AS/NZS 3001 clause 3.4.4.2 and requires both active and neutral supply connections to be switched by a multi-pole switch.
If the on-board generator is connected with one side of generator output earthed to the caravan installation earth bar, the switchboard protective devices and fitting switches may be single pole and are connected in the unearthed pole. The generator neutral to earth connection must only be present when the caravan is being supplied by the generator.
If the on-board generator is connected and operated as an isolated supply, the switchboard protective devices and fitting switches must be double pole and are connected in the active and neutral poles.
Q. What are the Requirements for Caravans Connected to Domestic Installations?
A. Connection to the domestic installation may be made by either an IEC 60309 16A socket outlet or a 15A or greater AS/NZS 3112 socket outlet (three pin flat pin) with an minimum IP rating of IPX4 or higher if in a exposed position. The socket outlet must be protected by an MCB with a rating not greater than the socket rating. An RCD should also be provided which would require the caravan to be upgraded to remove the neutral to earth link (if installed) and installation of a RCBO.
Q. What are the Requirements for Connecting Fire Service Appliances to the Electricity Supply?
A. Regulation 98 applies, which also requires that supplementary protection against electric shock (RCD or isolating transformer) is to be provided in the supply for the connection of the fire appliance. AS/NZS 3001 requirements apply to the fire appliance.
Q. Is Connection by 15A Three Pin Flat Pin Permissible for a Connectable Installation?
A. For caravans in a caravan park and pleasure vessels in a marina, either a 16 amp IEC 60309 (round pin) or a 15A 3 pin flat plug are options. There are no restrictions on the types of plugs and sockets that can be used for the supply of connectable installations in all other locations. For all supplies to connectable installations, excepting IEC 60309 types in caravan parks, supplementary protection against electric shock is required. Protection by an RCD or isolating transformer is an acceptable means of providing such supplementary protection. Each socket must be protected by an MCB of the same rating as the socket outlet.
This dosen't actually answer the question and is for info only, to find the answer to my earlier post you have to refer to the standard for caravan leads....
-- Edited by Basil Faulty on Saturday 26th of December 2009 06:30:14 PM
dave06 said
07:31 PM Dec 26, 2009
are these rules applicable australia wide Basil
as to your previous question all I can see with my untrained eye is the very light cabling!
Disco Duck said
07:34 PM Dec 26, 2009
No Jimricho.................there is NO racing on Boxing day...........Heathen!!
jimricho said
08:07 PM Dec 26, 2009
Disco Duck wrote:
...........Heathen!!
(guilty as charged, Your Honour)
-- Edited by jimricho on Saturday 26th of December 2009 07:08:39 PM
I apoligise when I'm incorrect but you attacked me for no good reason,
yet you still continue to attack me even now, obviously you are a very bored man
just take your foot out of your mouth and get on with life, you may even find a freind in here if you stop and talk a bit of sense
I will not say what amperage mine are as, once again, I will not comment on 240
I will continue to do what I am doing, but anyway you have a good xmas, I must go as guests are yelling for me
to attack me for answering other posts is really very silly and childish dont you think, perhaps you need to attend a "grow up course"
-- Edited by dave06 on Friday 25th of December 2009 11:04:24 AM
I respect your position as an adjudicator
I have no doubt the Dave has a range of knowledge But He is not electrically qualified I.am qualified .
Apart from not being aware that Clipsal now make a 10amp power board with !5 amp outlet all my other statements are correct.
The Australian Standard covering this subject are very explicit Two things explicitly stated are
An extension MUST have the same rated plug on each end.
The joining of extension leads to supply a caravan motor home etc is NOT ALLOWED
Whether some like it or not any thing which breaches those rules IS ILLEGAL
Since this is called a tech thread I did believe that ideas, misunderstandings or things not known should be pointed out & explained as my duty as a qualified electrician.It would seem that that is not acceptable to some who do not want to know otherwise.
Your post is not unexpected ,but may wish to consider your position when this forum has members promoting ,either directly or indirectly ,info which is in breach of the regulations.
Other forums have had similar problem as has shown up here with the constant push by some of similar practises
Those forums have felt it necessary to post a sticky or a warning post disclaiming any responsibility for info posted
I have simply tried to inform the readers of the of the legal implications.
I personally do not care what those who do not agree do. But I am sure others who were not aware of the regs would appreciate my info
IT IS FACTUAL .IT IS THE LAW. IT IS MANDATORY REGULATIONS
Sadly in the electrical industry ,like many others, there are so called electrician who do not know the rules relevant to caravans & motor homes and as in your case & others make up illegal leads etc.
I would like you to read my posts from the start & you will see I am sure that was my intent, but some could just not accept that what they are./were doing, is wrong, is illegal ,is potentially dangerous.
If I have hurt some feeling I am sorry but in all honesty I believe I have a duty knowing that is the position to help people to understand.
In trying to do that it is often necessary to ask questions to try a see the basis of their misunderstanding, this seems to have got Dave's backup, that was not my intent
, If you wish for qualified knowledge relevant to our life style to be posted on this forum you will understand what my point is.
If not you may see fit to expel me, as an indication that such info upsets some on the forum.
At present it seems you do not have anyone qualified to give the CORRECT but possible unliked FACTS.
I will always apologise if a make a mistake .
I did on this thread & I ask you to read Dave"s reaction to that apology.
Your last line is disturbing if you ,as an adjudicator, do not consider that illegal potentially life threating & dangerous practises are not serious
.Perhaps you will make this my last post ,that is up to you.
I have a wide range of electrical & engineering experience to offer but it is up to you if you & the members wish to take advantage of that.
Thank you & a late Merry Xmas to you & yours
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Friday 25th of December 2009 11:15:43 PM
hear .. hear .. OldTrack .. I support your stand 100% .. !!
Sorry but you have misunderstood
The use of joined extension leads for running a single devise is quite acceptable Provided they are operated within their current limits &voltage drop .
A van /motor home is not a single devise.
It actually can be considered as a sub circuit with many outlets.
But has a specific set of rules covering it due to other factors.
A comment was made about only having to meet the expected load eg 8amps
True for a single devise, But the motor home /van is not a single devise it is a mobile multy subcircuit.
As such the feed to it has to be suitable for all the connected load less a diversity factor ,.
Exactly the same as a house sub circuit
Would any one suggest that because they MAY only use say 20 amps in their house the incoming mains should be only 20 amps.
The only current legal to overcome thev problem is the Ampfibian
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 10:03:41 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 11:21:23 AM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 11:28:50 AM
Yes read all the posts from start to finish , then make your own decision
.I know what I have posted re the illegality of these setups is not good news
But. it is fact , it is law, it is a mandatory reg
. As I have said I am advising only, I can not make anyone follow my advise .
.That is of no concern to me
As far as no advice DAve ,your first post on the subject said
'there are other legal ways'
You may not have described them but you went on to indirectly support the use of illegal devises.
There is no other LEGAL way of connecting a10amp outlet to a van 15amp socket
As a final comment show me where i have posted personal abuse as you have done.???
PS TO ALL
I have absolutely no financial gain from my posts.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 11:07:23 AM
It seems I was mistaken I BELIEVED you were an official moderator of this site.
] From Dave's post""granny you are not an adjudicater but your post is noted and apreciated,
"
It seems you like to pose as someone you are not.
. Obviously from your posts you are a great friend of DAve & are sticking up for him On that I will say no more
Re my other qualifications you may just may be surprised !!
If I am allowed to stay on this forum YOU & others, in time, will find the extent of that knowledge.
It is knowledge gained over many years in many areas of Working for a very large engineering co in many responsible positions,{not just a backyarder.]
One thing as I stated before I DO NOT POST ON SUBJECT ON WHICH I HAVE LIMITED KNOWLEDGE,unless I preface them with:"I believe "or " to my knowledge""
I also OBJECT to the use of my surname in your post & how you gained access to it.
I think that would be looked on with DISTASTE by most forum posters.
I think YOU need to look @ YOUR forum manners
You could have sent your message by PM If you wished to use my name but it shows little respect on YOUR part for others Privacy
Probably sowing another nail in my coffin but do hope the genuine owner/ moderator is a fair minded unbiased person.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:04:20 PM
It's OK if you want to take the line of pedant but I think if you do so you should back your statements with the relevant facts.
Now in the case I mentioned I can't find the wording that says that it is illegal to replace a 10 amp socket with a 15 amp socket if the supply current is limited to 10 amps. The reverse ie putting a 15 amp socket on a 10 amp lead is. This of course is the case with the existing 10 amp leads with circuit breaker/ RCD in the lead. Ahhhh yes I hear you say it is illegal to put a socket on a lead unless you are licenced to do so however it is not actually an offence, certainly not in the ACT anyway. But if you do do so please note the wiring diagram on the 15 amp socket provided so that non combatants can do the job without causing any personal loss or injury.
One other point to consider is this, before spending $240 on this get a sparky to quote you on a 15 amp GPO in a weatherproof box, I think you may be pleasantly surprised. And as my final point just remember that each of these Ampfibian devices may carry an approval number but are they tested individually and assembeled under SAA supervision?
STOP PRESS
As from July 2013 ALL ELECTRIC "extension" LEADS OVER 10M long or any electric lead used in the outdoors will be required to be fitted with an "integral earth leakage and over current device"
I believe that by now you have got your message across that these leads as used by many people are indeed illegal so please give us all a break and let the matter drop.
We know they are illegal, we know that they can cause a problem if we draw in excess of 10 amps. So with this knowledge by now firmly embedded in our so limited brains we will use our leads with the utmost caution.
PS. Editited for a spelling mistake before the spelling police start up as well.
-- Edited by JRH on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:14:03 PM
My problem here is that I do not like smug people and you seem to me to have a very smug attitude which .....in my opinion........was evident from your first posting in response to Popeye's question.......and I quote:
Hi
The replies should be interesting Since it is the ONLY LEGAL way to connect a 15amp inlet to a 10amp outlet.
Instead of answering Popeye's question......you sat back and waited for someone else to answer it so you could spout off and shoot them down with your knowledge. I would have thought a better way of going about it would have been to answer the question.......spout the legalities and then sit back and answer any questions any of us may have had. You would have attracted far more interest that way.
This is my opinion ...........................and as we have said before......opnions are like Ar*eholes........everyone has one and they all stink!!
#1 I am sorry but the rules are not available on the internet so can not copy &paste
They also copywrite protected They are available from Global supplies
#2
This is also covered the wording is: an extension lead shall have the SAME rating plug & socket[ not a10 & a 1515 opr any other combination]
#3
These are approved & have the revelent approval number attached
#4
I have already said you will not get jailed for it,but should an accident occur
you will be in very deep water
These standard are made to protect lives & property
#5
Yes a very simple & legal angement but that is not this thread is about.It is about extension leads .See OP
#6
Clearly a riduculous question , nor is ANYTHING ELSE ,cars, home appliances, switch gear, baby cots & strollers you name it .
Virtually every thing is covered by AUS standards ,some may only be recommendations.
Others such as electrical & gas are MANDATORY.
Perhaps you do not understand that
Link to supplier of ALL Aust Standards
http://infostore.saiglobal.com/store/ICSBrowse.aspx?Code=29&publisherID=All
In hind sight it may have been better, but do really think it would have changed the support for the status Quo
But I did not just say "this will be interesting"
I "said this will be interesting as it [meaning the Ampfibian ]is the only legal way" Etc
[In hindsight I probably should have added" A van / motor home camper trailer etc.
But since the OP was relevant to vans I did not think that necessary
A clear statement ,others choose to disagree with me."
As DeBe said, he has seen it go pear shaped on other forums
Ps Disco
I assure that it was not my intent to put anyone down
Over the years I have found that it is easier to find out what people believe & then endevour to correct those ideas , rather than spout a whole book full of info
If asked I will endevour to explain further on the questions
I do understand your views but cannot entirely agree
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 03:51:51 PM
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 04:00:05 PM
-- Edited by Cruising Granny on Saturday 26th of December 2009 04:06:55 PM
Perhaps if you can post a link to actual web page you are referring to ,I will comment.
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Saturday 26th of December 2009 05:26:03 PM
Jim I beg your indulgence until the delivery of the coup de grace
http://www.amp-fibian.com/
Caravans and Connectable Installations
Q. In What Instances is RCD Protection Required for Caravans (Connectable Installations)?
A. In all new caravans/motor homes, etc, RCD protection is required when AS/NZS 3001 is being used as a means of compliance to provide personal protection. Note: RCDs in caravans are required to be double pole.
Q. Caravans Manufactured to AS/NZS 3000 Have an In-line RCD in the Supply Cord. Why Change to an RCD in the Caravan if the In-line RCD Needs Replacing?
A. The in-line RCDs are failing due to water ingress through the IEC 60309 plug top and flexible cable cores and are suffering mechanical damage due to being dropped or being run over by vehicles. RCD protection mounted in the switchboard protects the caravan installation but the supply lead is unprotected. However, this is no different to the majority of caravan supply leads when connected in a caravan park by an IEC 60309 plug.
Q. Does a Caravan Have to be Upgraded to the New RCD Requirements and Have the Neutral to Earth Link Removed to Obtain the Next WoEF?
A. No. Upgrading to new RCD requirements is not retrospective or mandated by the Electricity Regulations. However, upgrading is recommended. A bulletin detailing the work required for the upgrade is available from Energy Safety (Ph. 0508 377 4636) or download from here.
Q. What are the RCD Requirements for a Permanently Connected Caravan?
A. If a caravan is permanently connected to a supply of electricity, the provisions of AS/NZS 3000 apply, as the caravan then forms part of the electrical installation providing the supply. Refer to AS/NZS 3001 clause 1.1(i).
Q. What Proposals are Being Considered to Upgrade Old Caravans to AS/NZS 3001 Requirements to Provide RCD Protection?
A. While it is not proposed at this time to mandate upgrading of existing caravans to AS/NZS 3001 requirements (the provision of a RCD in the caravan switchboard and removal of neutral to earth link), a bulletin detailing the work required for the upgrade is available from Energy Safety (Ph. 0508 377 4636) or download from here.
Q. What are the Requirements for RCDs in Caravan Park Service Pillars?
A. Socket outlets to AS/NZS 3112 (three pin flat pin socket outlets) are required to be RCD protected. Socket outlets to IEC 60309 are not required to be RCD protected.
Q. What Internal Wiring Sizes are Permitted for Existing Caravans for WoEF Renewals?
A. The caravan internal wiring which complied with the Electrical Wiring Regulations, ECP 1 or AS/NZS 3000 section 701 requirements in force when the caravan was manufactured are acceptable for the renewal of a WoEF.
Q. Who may Undertake Caravan Park Re-inspections?
A. Electrical inspectors with a valid practising licence or those approved by the Secretary. The requirements for re-inspection are contained in NZS 3019.
Q. What are the Requirements for Caravan On-board Generators?
A. The requirements for the changeover switch to select the supply source to which the caravan is to be connected is given in AS/NZS 3001 clause 3.4.4.2 and requires both active and neutral supply connections to be switched by a multi-pole switch.
If the on-board generator is connected with one side of generator output earthed to the caravan installation earth bar, the switchboard protective devices and fitting switches may be single pole and are connected in the unearthed pole. The generator neutral to earth connection must only be present when the caravan is being supplied by the generator.
If the on-board generator is connected and operated as an isolated supply, the switchboard protective devices and fitting switches must be double pole and are connected in the active and neutral poles.
Q. What are the Requirements for Caravans Connected to Domestic Installations?
A. Connection to the domestic installation may be made by either an IEC 60309 16A socket outlet or a 15A or greater AS/NZS 3112 socket outlet (three pin flat pin) with an minimum IP rating of IPX4 or higher if in a exposed position. The socket outlet must be protected by an MCB with a rating not greater than the socket rating. An RCD should also be provided which would require the caravan to be upgraded to remove the neutral to earth link (if installed) and installation of a RCBO.
Q. What are the Requirements for Connecting Fire Service Appliances to the Electricity Supply?
A. Regulation 98 applies, which also requires that supplementary protection against electric shock (RCD or isolating transformer) is to be provided in the supply for the connection of the fire appliance. AS/NZS 3001 requirements apply to the fire appliance.
Q. Is Connection by 15A Three Pin Flat Pin Permissible for a Connectable Installation?
A. For caravans in a caravan park and pleasure vessels in a marina, either a 16 amp IEC 60309 (round pin) or a 15A 3 pin flat plug are options. There are no restrictions on the types of plugs and sockets that can be used for the supply of connectable installations in all other locations. For all supplies to connectable installations, excepting IEC 60309 types in caravan parks, supplementary protection against electric shock is required. Protection by an RCD or isolating transformer is an acceptable means of providing such supplementary protection. Each socket must be protected by an MCB of the same rating as the socket outlet.
This dosen't actually answer the question and is for info only, to find the answer to my earlier post you have to refer to the standard for caravan leads....
-- Edited by Basil Faulty on Saturday 26th of December 2009 06:30:14 PM
(guilty as charged, Your Honour)
-- Edited by jimricho on Saturday 26th of December 2009 07:08:39 PM