The presumption of doli incapax is a presumption in law that the offender did not know something was wrong based on their youth or young age. Like all presumptions, it is rebuttable by the prosecution calling evidence to contradict this. Your suggested example therefore would not get far.
Insofar as all those who criticise diversion I don't think they understand just how it works. If a juvenile is arrested and charged they are brought before a court and diversion is considered. Diversion is a procedure that usually takes place over several months where the youth justice look into the juveniles home and school life, interactions with others and general circumstances. The juvenile may be required to attend for counselling and or programs and a continual assessment of their behaviour and attitude takes place. At the end of the diversion the matter returns to court and if the diversion has been successful then no conviction is recorded although a record of the diversion is kept. If the juvenile does not respond to diversion, the program is ceased and the juvenile is returned to court and sentenced according to the law.
You will always find these stories of what happened to my mates next door neighbours son. Most diversions do work. If they were not used and just a good kicking or incarceration was given all we have is a juvenile who will offend in a more sophisticated manner on the next occasion hoping not to be caught again. This spirals until adult years and they become a fully fledged member of the criminal element.
There are no easy fixes .Even the death penalty does not reduce crime rates. In some states of the USA there is the three felony system. Commit three felonies and you get life. That does not work because most crims don't think they will be found out or alternatively, they know no other life.
I have had a working life in this area. I have had hundreds in the higher jurisdictions and literally thousands in the lower courts. It is my view that this is the only system that has half a chance. There are horrible cases but they need a civilised approach or we are just going through the motions.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 18th of January 2024 03:58:04 PM
yobarr said
09:25 PM Jan 18, 2024
rmoor wrote:
I recall an event a mate of mine told me about many years ago. His father was a traveling rep for one of the major beer brands. He visited Bourke a few times and found the town was being laid to ransom by a house full of local recidivists who were wrecking the local businesses with constant break ins and theft. Significant damages and loss of stock. The local law was either powerless, useless or both. On a return visit he dropped into one pub and asked the publican how the crime rate was going. He said it stopped abruptly. Two large tattooed men and a bikie like woman booked a room in his pub on a Friday. They left on Sunday. They did not come down to the bar at any time. The young woman would pick up drinks and three meals and return them to the room. After the Saturday night reports came out about half a dozen "known to police" criminals that were known to be wrecking the towns's business sector for several months had their share house entered about 3 a.m. by two big heavily armed men. The local hospital then admitted about half a dozen men with multiple broken arms and legs and knees destroyed forever by iron bars being wielded. No more crime in the main street. The three people paid their bill and left quietly on the Sunday morning. It is apparent a private meeting was called for the towns business people and they each kicked the can for several thousand dollars to cater for some rodent control. I believe a similar thing happened at Narromine a few years later also. I DO Not condone violence and have never partaken in such an act, but I can fully understand the frustration of hard-working people seeing their livelihoods they have worked long hard hours to build being wrecked virtually overnight by ferals. At the end of the day, if people push the envelope too hard, too often, there is eventually a response. We reap what we sow.
At the High School that I attended many moons ago there was a teacher who was very handy with using a cane. Boys were made to bend over while he whipped their rears so hard that often blood was drawn. Not surprisingly, there were almost no repeat offenders. Just saying.
Blues Man said
08:45 AM Jan 19, 2024
yobarr wrote:
rmoor wrote:
I recall an event a mate of mine told me about many years ago. His father was a traveling rep for one of the major beer brands. He visited Bourke a few times and found the town was being laid to ransom by a house full of local recidivists who were wrecking the local businesses with constant break ins and theft. Significant damages and loss of stock. The local law was either powerless, useless or both. On a return visit he dropped into one pub and asked the publican how the crime rate was going. He said it stopped abruptly. Two large tattooed men and a bikie like woman booked a room in his pub on a Friday. They left on Sunday. They did not come down to the bar at any time. The young woman would pick up drinks and three meals and return them to the room. After the Saturday night reports came out about half a dozen "known to police" criminals that were known to be wrecking the towns's business sector for several months had their share house entered about 3 a.m. by two big heavily armed men. The local hospital then admitted about half a dozen men with multiple broken arms and legs and knees destroyed forever by iron bars being wielded. No more crime in the main street. The three people paid their bill and left quietly on the Sunday morning. It is apparent a private meeting was called for the towns business people and they each kicked the can for several thousand dollars to cater for some rodent control. I believe a similar thing happened at Narromine a few years later also. I DO Not condone violence and have never partaken in such an act, but I can fully understand the frustration of hard-working people seeing their livelihoods they have worked long hard hours to build being wrecked virtually overnight by ferals. At the end of the day, if people push the envelope too hard, too often, there is eventually a response. We reap what we sow.
At the High School that I attended many moons ago there was a teacher who was very handy with using a cane. Boys were made to bend over while he whipped their rears so hard that often blood was drawn. Not surprisingly, there were almost no repeat offenders. Just saying.
Absolutely love it.!!
DMaxer said
01:04 PM Jan 19, 2024
I think you will find that using corporal punishment to stop a few schoolboys from talking in class or throwing spit balls is a bit different to preventing a troubled youth from turning into a recidivist.
I know we all had first hand experience of walking 20 miles to school each day, being flogged unmercifully each night by our father, never straying from the straight and narrow and all ending up perfect examples of humanity, but some kids aren't as fortunate to have that background and so end up in crime.
rmoor said
01:46 PM Jan 19, 2024
Something I have observed a few times lately.
If I am seeing the trend, why then are those paid big money to mentor and monitor youth not doing their job properly.
At the Orana mall in Dubbo there is one of those kiosks that cuts keys, sell s mugs, trinckets and the like. They also sell a large selection of fancy knives, not fishing knives, not kitchen knives, but the other variety.
Recently, a few times I have only observed ONE certain group oggling these knives. Youth, from around 10 to 16 I guess and all appear to be from the same socio-economic background. Sure there is a sign attached with references to the age legality of purchase, but these little Bs are way too smart for that, too easy to find an older recidivist to secure one for them.
I guess the current sad story about the young 23 year old doctor murdered recently by two youths after a home invasion in Melbourne comes to mind. The family of the deceased Dr have called for the death penalty to be re-introduced. I think that is a bit extreme in this day and age, but most certainly laws need to change in this country re home invasions and the like and the penalties for same.
No-one has a right to be in our homes or on our properties without valid reason or an invitation. Those laws need to change and be made significantly more in favour of the victims. Also, consideration be given to criminal compensation, if the parents or guardians of such creatures cannot control or handle them, then hand them over voluntarily to authorities to educate and house these creatures. If the parents dont handle the situation after the first offence by their kids, and they don't commit them to an institution if deemed severe enough of a crime, they sign up to the state for a liability to pay criminal compensation (and MASSIVE compo at that) to any future victims of their kids crimes. Even if they are dole bludgers, they pay $40 a fortnight from their dole to the victims on account held in MyGov etc for say, an annual payout, for the rest of the term of the parents natural life or when compo has been completed. That may deter a few parents from allowing their little Bs to run riot. Also may deter the little Bs as they now have mummy or daddy to answer to for the first time ever. The hip pocket method always seems to work. If word gets around the feral families they are looking at around 40 bucks a fortnight debit to reduce their poker machine or drug money budget with a 20 grand debt similar to a HELP (HECS) debt for a serious home invasion, resulting in physical injury and a car theft burned out. Say 20 to 40 grand for compensation for such a crime by their kids under their control? The potential loss of grog, drug or pokie funds may make them think twice?
We are way too soft on recidivists in this country and it is all coming from the soft, weak leftie commos that are growing in numbers in this once fine country unfortunately.
rmoor said
02:27 PM Jan 19, 2024
I was flogged mercilessly with the cane at school and deserved every bit of it.
Like many my age then, one was a mongrel of a kid, but the cane certainly made one think twice before being lured into another fire cracker attack being mounted on a school bin or the like.
Many years ago we battled to buy our first home, our son was very young then, we were working hard, a typical young decent Aussie family in our first home.
The neighbour died and his son moved in with a couple of ferals in tow. Our lives became hell. I hate the song Achy, Breaky Heart, as they played that all night long and my wife soon became stricken with her migraine issues and could no longer sleep and lived in fear of the Ass****es next door giving us hell. My wife's family were extremely difficult people to deal with (Dutch) and I got the blame and also they took it the wrong way when I bought a rifle. It got so bad with these Schitzo idiots next door, my wife could not function or go to work and she and I ended up separating (turned out to be about 3 months but caused significant bad blood with my inlaws forever). The police were virtually powerless to deal with these people and they were well known to police and threatened just about every resident in our street.
A great mate of mine, now deceased, was a tough bloke and in a job where he carried a handgun every night in his security role. He came to see me one day concerned about how we were going, I told him we had decided to sell our house and move. He questioned why we should suffer and the b's next door "win" (again). He then asked me if I wanted to "do in" the main offender next door. I asked what he meant and he said the bloke would never walk or chew again. I then asked who the other 3 mates were with him to perform this act. I mentioned a few big footy mates names, no, they were 3 copper mates of his/ours who hated the idiots next door with a passion as the courts continually let them off and the coppers had enough and knew how much damage it was doing to a decent family like ours. I cannot recall if I spoke to my wife about it, I to seem to recall I did, I asked my mate to give me some time to think about it.
I thought about it - at length, it was a big life decision. I decided not to have the neighbour "done over". Many would have I suppose? My mate was very disappointed, we were close mates and he wanted to help in a way he felt he could. My reasoning was - Two wrongs don't make a right, what if it went to Sh*t and they killed him and it all came out, we are all then criminals and no better than the ferals, what if the ferals find out and we cop retribution and puts my son and wife at an even greater risk. It could have made things significantly worse.
I look back over the years and still have occasional nightmares about it. Still believe it was the right decision though. I still wake in fright 40 years on, nightmares and also dreams of me shooting those b*sards myself. I went close to shooting them I can tellya. We were innocent victims in the wrong place at the wrong time
We sold the house, and then rented, it hurt us greatly, both financially and mentally. My B'stard inlaws had plotted behind my back and took my wife and child from me. We re-united soon after as it was all "wrong".
I made the right decision in the end, don't worry, I thought long and hard about it. I had already told my father in law if the mongrel next door bashed in our front door with an axe (and capable of it) I would shoot him immediately to protect my family.
This may in part explain my strong beliefs about crime and criminals and my attitude, but I think you have to have lived through hardship to really know what hardship is.
msg said
05:45 PM Jan 19, 2024
Everyone seems to think that if they say "Sorry" for unacceptable behaviour everything is forgotten. There is never any attempt to make amends or do anything to rectify it. That just makes me grumpier certainly doesn't appease me.
-- Edited by msg on Friday 19th of January 2024 05:46:40 PM
DMaxer said
07:50 PM Jan 19, 2024
Who is everyone. What facts are you relying upon.
msg said
09:18 PM Jan 19, 2024
DMaxer, Ones that are as good as yours.
"Are We Lost" posted a good example earlier about his grandaughter. He was right. Thats where all this started. By the same token, I am glad I am not a parent in this day and age. Expectations are so high to be a good parent.
It would seem to me that you are one of the do-gooders that we all love so much. Please supply facts for your assertions if you are going to ask it of me.
BTW I thought this was a conversation. 'Why do you feel you must attack people. To prove you know more that they? Try to contain your agro please. I am glad I don't feel I have to attack people because their opinion differs from mine. A good way to handle that is to say nothing and let it pass.
Try to remember your posts are not high school essays. We are not required to quote sources.
I was going to ignore you and let it pass, but your attitude is making the forum an uncomfortable place and I really had to comment. I promise from now on I will ignore all your posts.
-- Edited by msg on Friday 19th of January 2024 09:20:42 PM
rmoor said
09:41 PM Jan 19, 2024
I wish now I hadn't posted that thread about a bad experience my family encountered from around 30 years ago.
Haven't been able to get it out of my head since and it has caused a lot of depression in me for hours since.
Up until today I hadn't thought about that awful time in life for some time?
I now make the point about the impact crime has on we victims. I feel we are always the forgotten part of the argument.
In my now depressed state since I recalled the lot and also recalled I read in the local Dubbo paper about two years after our problems with a criminal A***hole there was a story on him.
He was committed to a high security Sydney prison.
I still recall the newspaper article well and part of it read that he held a knife to the throat of a woman and said "God forgive me for what I am about to do". There was also more to it that I cannot recall, but it wasn't good. He was as mad as a hatter.
She also must still have nightmares as the rest of us do from the acts of this creature. How do some poor women try and recover their lives after a sexual assault or a rape. Our issues 30 years+ ago pale into comparison to what some other victims suffer. The law is an ass. The penalties do not fit the crimes.
I think he got 4 or 5 years for that.
I reckon the young lady victim would have thought I made the wrong decision. If he had been done over years earlier, she may have been spared a lifetime of nightmares herself.
Didn't ever hear a thing about him in the years following or anything since? Did enquire in a few places but he wasn't heard from again.
Reckon he would have been one of those creatures who would have done time real bad in Long Bay and Silverwater.
I often hoped I would hear someone had cut his throat in there, I hope they did. Awful disgraceful creature. That is what he would have deserved in my opinion.
So, anyone defending the actions of criminals or a softly, softly approach with them gets my back up.
rmoor said
10:08 PM Jan 19, 2024
msg
"There is never any attempt to make amends or do anything to rectify it. That just makes me grumpier certainly doesn't appease me."
That is why I believe ALL parents should be required by law to pay SIGNIFICANT compensation to victims of their kids actions if caught and convicted. One needs a licence to drive a car, qualifications to perform many working roles, but no training or qualifications to be a parent and a responsible one at that. Many of these parents were delinquent themselves and wouldn't give a rats what damage they do to others. That is why I reckon in this day and age of DNA and cameras a home invasion on some little old lady, now scarred for life from a violent home invasion with her car stolen and burned out, who in turn gets nothing by way of compensation for the mental torture or the need for a new car with insurance excess costs and loss on disposal etc should be suitably compensated by at least 20 grand plus !!!!
I reckon once the feral families get wind of that or a hear of a relative has to kick the can for 20 or 30 grand for their mongrel kid stealing and burning my new car, then the rest of them would soon arc up and have a completely different attitude to the actions of their little lovelies.
It is highly likely that Queensland could see a change of government due to the spineless mob they have in there now letting youth run riot for the last year or more. How would you like to be a shop owner in Alice Springs. No thanks, I have scratched Alice Springs and Townsville off my visiting list. I would suggest others add Dubbo to their drive thru list as well.
Sure, retain the education programs and the like and continue with monitoring bad behaviour. We didn't get any of that, all we got was a kick up the Ar$e from the local police sergeant for rocking the school librarian's tin roof and a very strong warning of what was coming next if we did similar again. We all quickly retired from our fledgling life of crime. My old man also gave me a thrashing for having to put up with an hour long earbashing from said school teacher when we all got lined up to visit and apologize. My fathers words and the words of my mate's father "Panther" are still ringing in my ears what our punishment would be if our respective father's had to put up with that again !!!!
dogbox said
09:27 AM Jan 20, 2024
rmoor wrote:
msg
"There is never any attempt to make amends or do anything to rectify it. That just makes me grumpier certainly doesn't appease me."
That is why I believe ALL parents should be required by law to pay SIGNIFICANT compensation to victims of their kids actions if caught and convicted. One needs a licence to drive a car, qualifications to perform many working roles, but no training or qualifications to be a parent and a responsible one at that. Many of these parents were delinquent themselves and wouldn't give a rats what damage they do to others. That is why I reckon in this day and age of DNA and cameras a home invasion on some little old lady, now scarred for life from a violent home invasion with her car stolen and burned out, who in turn gets nothing by way of compensation for the mental torture or the need for a new car with insurance excess costs and loss on disposal etc should be suitably compensated by at least 20 grand plus !!!!
I reckon once the feral families get wind of that or a hear of a relative has to kick the can for 20 or 30 grand for their mongrel kid stealing and burning my new car, then the rest of them would soon arc up and have a completely different attitude to the actions of their little lovelies.
It is highly likely that Queensland could see a change of government due to the spineless mob they have in there now letting youth run riot for the last year or more. How would you like to be a shop owner in Alice Springs. No thanks, I have scratched Alice Springs and Townsville off my visiting list. I would suggest others add Dubbo to their drive thru list as well.
Sure, retain the education programs and the like and continue with monitoring bad behaviour. We didn't get any of that, all we got was a kick up the Ar$e from the local police sergeant for rocking the school librarian's tin roof and a very strong warning of what was coming next if we did similar again. We all quickly retired from our fledgling life of crime. My old man also gave me a thrashing for having to put up with an hour long earbashing from said school teacher when we all got lined up to visit and apologize. My fathers words and the words of my mate's father "Panther" are still ringing in my ears what our punishment would be if our respective father's had to put up with that again !!!!
in a lot of cases the parent's hands are tied if they try to enforce rules/behavior standards, the kick up the ass so to speak could result in more punishment for the parent if the authorities where to become involved.
it all comes back to " rights without responsiblity"
Magnarc said
04:50 PM Jan 20, 2024
Charles Dickens once said, "The law is an ass". I would venture to say that nothing has changed, in fact it has got worse. Nearly everyday I see on the news that someone has committed another crime whilst out on bail and some of these young crims have a rap sheet as long as your arm.
Our resident lawyer has told us that we should educate the parents. That may well be the case but, it is the child that commits the crime so punishing the parents will not stop the little ratbags from doing it again. I do not totally dismiss Dmaxer's views. He is a product of his profession so would naturally think the that way. I find it inconceivable that a child above the age of ten does not know that he/she is committing a crime.
We have woke people sitting on the bench,(should be a park bench) who are suckers for a sob story. It is rapidly getting to the stage where folk are not safe in their homes, certainly not safe in the city after dark, and getting your car stolen is a very real threat.
A friend of ours, a policeman of twenty years standing, has often remarked that all the work that is undertaken to bring these people to justice, is wasted on do gooder Magistrates who consistently allow these crims back into society, irrespective of their previous record. So some police say "What is the point?" You would have to agree surely?
If employing a 1700's method of punishment is needed, (birch) then do it in public. This would have an added bonus of reducing the overcrowding of jails.
I doubt that there would be many who would re offend after a public caning. Of course this won't happen but, it's a pity all the same.
Over to you DMaxer.
msg said
05:53 PM Jan 20, 2024
IMHO Violence is not the way to go either.
peter67 said
07:26 PM Jan 20, 2024
There is huge community rage simmering away under the surface of some of the worst affected towns, and the beginnings of a little bit of vigilantism showing here and there, a fact I can prove Dmaxer. Some facts are not amenable to lawyerly argument, they just have to be accepted, the system is broken.
ps magnarc, on a lighter note your suggestions of a public caning were in regular practice at every high school in the 60's when you stood in front of the class to receive it. But! maybe if then gummint could make some money out of public floggings I reckon she'd be a goer. We could hold them at concert arenas with ticketed sales to the general public, victims would receive free front row seats. It would outrate Jerry Springer by a country mile, here's hoping.
DMaxer said
10:36 AM Jan 21, 2024
i never got to appear in front of any "woke" (whatever that means) magistrates or judges. They were tough and certainly weren't fooled. Sob stories are not admissible in submissions by the way.
When someone may receive a sentence that the uninformed think may be lenient, then there is a reason why. If a court hands down a sentence that is inadequate the the prosecution appeals and a court in a higher jurisdiction rehears the sentence and acts accordingly.
General whinging from lazy police about having their hands tied is total crap. They don't run the prosecution, the DPP does. The police are just witnesses for the prosecution so how do they know what the outcome is going to be.
Anyhow, I am done on this subject. It is called law and has evolved over hundreds and hundreds of years. You armchair experts can solve it all with beatings and gaol time and bankrupting parents. Leave me out of it as I feel another attack of ilithiophobia coming on.
Are We Lost said
10:51 AM Jan 21, 2024
Carrying out your own form of justice has risks. In this story a group found some juveniles that they thought intended to break into their car. So they took the juveniles to a remote location so they would have to walk home. A reasonable non violent solution to make the juveniles regret their (apparently) planned action. The story does not go into detail that would enable the reader to know how likely that would be.
But those adminstering the justice are now in serious trouble.
Leave me out of it as I feel another attack of ilithiophobia coming on.
Let us hope that you get better soon.
-- Edited by Magnarc on Sunday 21st of January 2024 12:17:27 PM
rmoor said
01:14 PM Jan 21, 2024
No wonder the justice system is so broken when you consider some of the contributions from some in this thread.
I guess there is always someone to get on their high horse and dictate to we underlings.
I think sometimes many cannot see the forest for the trees.
The plight of the victims is not recognised, merely seen as a byproduct of the disgraceful actions of others.
Another example is, in my country town, so often one is not aware of the death of someone local.
The reason being, that the local funeral directors for years have not published death notices in local papers and other media sources.
What was happening was people were getting their houses burglarised by low life's when they were attending their parents funerals and the like.
This is how low some of the local criminals are.
It is tough enough to lose a parent, yet then come home to a ransacked home.
Yet, some see this type of behaviour should go without any form of punishment, but to merely correct them in the error of their ways.
No wonder the system is broken.
peter67 said
01:20 PM Jan 21, 2024
Ilithiophobia - a strong and persistent intolerance of stupidity....my my.
rmoor said
01:42 PM Jan 21, 2024
"Ilithiophobia - a strong and persistent intolerance of stupidity....my my."
Yep. I have been a victim of crime multiple times in many ways and suffered some awful losses and mental anguish from same.
Now I am stupid too.............
Aussie1 said
02:45 PM Jan 21, 2024
Clearly, currently no one, absolutely NO ONE has a solution that will resolve the issue, so in my view lets go with a damn good "flogging" of all perpetrators of crime until someone can come up with something that will definitely work better. My opinion.
And for heinous crimes, the death penalty, yes, I know it's proven not to be a deterrent but, they certainly won't ever repeat their wicked actions.
dogbox said
03:59 PM Jan 21, 2024
DMaxer wrote:
i never got to appear in front of any "woke" (whatever that means) magistrates or judges. They were tough and certainly weren't fooled. Sob stories are not admissible in submissions by the way.
When someone may receive a sentence that the uninformed think may be lenient, then there is a reason why. If a court hands down a sentence that is inadequate the the prosecution appeals and a court in a higher jurisdiction rehears the sentence and acts accordingly.
General whinging from lazy police about having their hands tied is total crap. They don't run the prosecution, the DPP does. The police are just witnesses for the prosecution so how do they know what the outcome is going to be.
Anyhow, I am done on this subject. It is called law and has evolved over hundreds and hundreds of years. You armchair experts can solve it all with beatings and gaol time and bankrupting parents. Leave me out of it as I feel another attack of ilithiophobia coming on.
poor old police man can probably save himself a lot of paperwork and frustration by doing not much in cases that he feels he is wasting his time
DMaxer said
09:26 AM Jan 22, 2024
Clearly a course in remedial reading and interpretation could be of significant benefit for a few of the posters on this topic.
Perhaps one of you geniuses could point to anything I have written condoning the behaviour of criminal youths or advocating that they go unpunished.
I have just stated what the law is regarding sentencing and how it is applied. From that, out come the hand wringers, the lynching party and the perpetually outraged society to launch their attacks.
If your wonderful suggestions have so much merit perhaps you could illustrate by listing a few civilised countries where your suggestions have been implemented and are a roaring success.
Saudi Arabia or perhaps Singapore or China spring to mind?
peter67 said
10:01 AM Jan 22, 2024
You stated previously "anyhow, I am done on this subject". Perhaps you are suffering from a po-faced combination of ilithiophobia and alzheimers?
May I recommend a tablespoon of DiaRelieve with your morning cornflakes.
dogbox said
10:19 AM Jan 22, 2024
Dmaxer you maybe trying to explain how the system works or doesn't work, if the silent majority do not start to be heard it will stay the same. if enough people speak up then maybe something will change. the present system, seem to be failing a few people from the victims to the perpetrators who get away with what appears to the great uneducated as "a please don't do it again" till they are so far down the wrong path that there is little chance to be redeemed.
we constantly hear that the offenders are repeat offenders an out on bail or on parole.
The presumption of doli incapax is a presumption in law that the offender did not know something was wrong based on their youth or young age. Like all presumptions, it is rebuttable by the prosecution calling evidence to contradict this. Your suggested example therefore would not get far.
Insofar as all those who criticise diversion I don't think they understand just how it works. If a juvenile is arrested and charged they are brought before a court and diversion is considered. Diversion is a procedure that usually takes place over several months where the youth justice look into the juveniles home and school life, interactions with others and general circumstances. The juvenile may be required to attend for counselling and or programs and a continual assessment of their behaviour and attitude takes place. At the end of the diversion the matter returns to court and if the diversion has been successful then no conviction is recorded although a record of the diversion is kept. If the juvenile does not respond to diversion, the program is ceased and the juvenile is returned to court and sentenced according to the law.
You will always find these stories of what happened to my mates next door neighbours son. Most diversions do work. If they were not used and just a good kicking or incarceration was given all we have is a juvenile who will offend in a more sophisticated manner on the next occasion hoping not to be caught again. This spirals until adult years and they become a fully fledged member of the criminal element.
There are no easy fixes .Even the death penalty does not reduce crime rates. In some states of the USA there is the three felony system. Commit three felonies and you get life. That does not work because most crims don't think they will be found out or alternatively, they know no other life.
I have had a working life in this area. I have had hundreds in the higher jurisdictions and literally thousands in the lower courts. It is my view that this is the only system that has half a chance. There are horrible cases but they need a civilised approach or we are just going through the motions.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 18th of January 2024 03:58:04 PM
At the High School that I attended many moons ago there was a teacher who was very handy with using a cane. Boys were made to bend over while he whipped their rears so hard that often blood was drawn. Not surprisingly, there were almost no repeat offenders. Just saying.
Absolutely love it.!!
I think you will find that using corporal punishment to stop a few schoolboys from talking in class or throwing spit balls is a bit different to preventing a troubled youth from turning into a recidivist.
I know we all had first hand experience of walking 20 miles to school each day, being flogged unmercifully each night by our father, never straying from the straight and narrow and all ending up perfect examples of humanity, but some kids aren't as fortunate to have that background and so end up in crime.
If I am seeing the trend, why then are those paid big money to mentor and monitor youth not doing their job properly.
At the Orana mall in Dubbo there is one of those kiosks that cuts keys, sell s mugs, trinckets and the like. They also sell a large selection of fancy knives, not fishing knives, not kitchen knives, but the other variety.
Recently, a few times I have only observed ONE certain group oggling these knives. Youth, from around 10 to 16 I guess and all appear to be from the same socio-economic background. Sure there is a sign attached with references to the age legality of purchase, but these little Bs are way too smart for that, too easy to find an older recidivist to secure one for them.
I guess the current sad story about the young 23 year old doctor murdered recently by two youths after a home invasion in Melbourne comes to mind. The family of the deceased Dr have called for the death penalty to be re-introduced. I think that is a bit extreme in this day and age, but most certainly laws need to change in this country re home invasions and the like and the penalties for same.
No-one has a right to be in our homes or on our properties without valid reason or an invitation. Those laws need to change and be made significantly more in favour of the victims. Also, consideration be given to criminal compensation, if the parents or guardians of such creatures cannot control or handle them, then hand them over voluntarily to authorities to educate and house these creatures. If the parents dont handle the situation after the first offence by their kids, and they don't commit them to an institution if deemed severe enough of a crime, they sign up to the state for a liability to pay criminal compensation (and MASSIVE compo at that) to any future victims of their kids crimes. Even if they are dole bludgers, they pay $40 a fortnight from their dole to the victims on account held in MyGov etc for say, an annual payout, for the rest of the term of the parents natural life or when compo has been completed. That may deter a few parents from allowing their little Bs to run riot. Also may deter the little Bs as they now have mummy or daddy to answer to for the first time ever. The hip pocket method always seems to work. If word gets around the feral families they are looking at around 40 bucks a fortnight debit to reduce their poker machine or drug money budget with a 20 grand debt similar to a HELP (HECS) debt for a serious home invasion, resulting in physical injury and a car theft burned out. Say 20 to 40 grand for compensation for such a crime by their kids under their control? The potential loss of grog, drug or pokie funds may make them think twice?
We are way too soft on recidivists in this country and it is all coming from the soft, weak leftie commos that are growing in numbers in this once fine country unfortunately.
Like many my age then, one was a mongrel of a kid, but the cane certainly made one think twice before being lured into another fire cracker attack being mounted on a school bin or the like.
Many years ago we battled to buy our first home, our son was very young then, we were working hard, a typical young decent Aussie family in our first home.
The neighbour died and his son moved in with a couple of ferals in tow. Our lives became hell. I hate the song Achy, Breaky Heart, as they played that all night long and my wife soon became stricken with her migraine issues and could no longer sleep and lived in fear of the Ass****es next door giving us hell. My wife's family were extremely difficult people to deal with (Dutch) and I got the blame and also they took it the wrong way when I bought a rifle. It got so bad with these Schitzo idiots next door, my wife could not function or go to work and she and I ended up separating (turned out to be about 3 months but caused significant bad blood with my inlaws forever). The police were virtually powerless to deal with these people and they were well known to police and threatened just about every resident in our street.
A great mate of mine, now deceased, was a tough bloke and in a job where he carried a handgun every night in his security role. He came to see me one day concerned about how we were going, I told him we had decided to sell our house and move. He questioned why we should suffer and the b's next door "win" (again). He then asked me if I wanted to "do in" the main offender next door. I asked what he meant and he said the bloke would never walk or chew again. I then asked who the other 3 mates were with him to perform this act. I mentioned a few big footy mates names, no, they were 3 copper mates of his/ours who hated the idiots next door with a passion as the courts continually let them off and the coppers had enough and knew how much damage it was doing to a decent family like ours. I cannot recall if I spoke to my wife about it, I to seem to recall I did, I asked my mate to give me some time to think about it.
I thought about it - at length, it was a big life decision. I decided not to have the neighbour "done over". Many would have I suppose? My mate was very disappointed, we were close mates and he wanted to help in a way he felt he could. My reasoning was - Two wrongs don't make a right, what if it went to Sh*t and they killed him and it all came out, we are all then criminals and no better than the ferals, what if the ferals find out and we cop retribution and puts my son and wife at an even greater risk. It could have made things significantly worse.
I look back over the years and still have occasional nightmares about it. Still believe it was the right decision though. I still wake in fright 40 years on, nightmares and also dreams of me shooting those b*sards myself. I went close to shooting them I can tellya. We were innocent victims in the wrong place at the wrong time
We sold the house, and then rented, it hurt us greatly, both financially and mentally. My B'stard inlaws had plotted behind my back and took my wife and child from me. We re-united soon after as it was all "wrong".
I made the right decision in the end, don't worry, I thought long and hard about it. I had already told my father in law if the mongrel next door bashed in our front door with an axe (and capable of it) I would shoot him immediately to protect my family.
This may in part explain my strong beliefs about crime and criminals and my attitude, but I think you have to have lived through hardship to really know what hardship is.
Everyone seems to think that if they say "Sorry" for unacceptable behaviour everything is forgotten. There is never any attempt to make amends or do anything to rectify it. That just makes me grumpier certainly doesn't appease me.
-- Edited by msg on Friday 19th of January 2024 05:46:40 PM
DMaxer, Ones that are as good as yours.
"Are We Lost" posted a good example earlier about his grandaughter. He was right. Thats where all this started. By the same token, I am glad I am not a parent in this day and age. Expectations are so high to be a good parent.
It would seem to me that you are one of the do-gooders that we all love so much. Please supply facts for your assertions if you are going to ask it of me.
BTW I thought this was a conversation. 'Why do you feel you must attack people. To prove you know more that they? Try to contain your agro please. I am glad I don't feel I have to attack people because their opinion differs from mine. A good way to handle that is to say nothing and let it pass.
Try to remember your posts are not high school essays. We are not required to quote sources.
I was going to ignore you and let it pass, but your attitude is making the forum an uncomfortable place and I really had to comment. I promise from now on I will ignore all your posts.
-- Edited by msg on Friday 19th of January 2024 09:20:42 PM
Haven't been able to get it out of my head since and it has caused a lot of depression in me for hours since.
Up until today I hadn't thought about that awful time in life for some time?
I now make the point about the impact crime has on we victims. I feel we are always the forgotten part of the argument.
In my now depressed state since I recalled the lot and also recalled I read in the local Dubbo paper about two years after our problems with a criminal A***hole there was a story on him.
He was committed to a high security Sydney prison.
I still recall the newspaper article well and part of it read that he held a knife to the throat of a woman and said "God forgive me for what I am about to do". There was also more to it that I cannot recall, but it wasn't good. He was as mad as a hatter.
She also must still have nightmares as the rest of us do from the acts of this creature. How do some poor women try and recover their lives after a sexual assault or a rape. Our issues 30 years+ ago pale into comparison to what some other victims suffer. The law is an ass. The penalties do not fit the crimes.
I think he got 4 or 5 years for that.
I reckon the young lady victim would have thought I made the wrong decision. If he had been done over years earlier, she may have been spared a lifetime of nightmares herself.
Didn't ever hear a thing about him in the years following or anything since? Did enquire in a few places but he wasn't heard from again.
Reckon he would have been one of those creatures who would have done time real bad in Long Bay and Silverwater.
I often hoped I would hear someone had cut his throat in there, I hope they did. Awful disgraceful creature. That is what he would have deserved in my opinion.
So, anyone defending the actions of criminals or a softly, softly approach with them gets my back up.
"There is never any attempt to make amends or do anything to rectify it. That just makes me grumpier certainly doesn't appease me."
That is why I believe ALL parents should be required by law to pay SIGNIFICANT compensation to victims of their kids actions if caught and convicted. One needs a licence to drive a car, qualifications to perform many working roles, but no training or qualifications to be a parent and a responsible one at that. Many of these parents were delinquent themselves and wouldn't give a rats what damage they do to others. That is why I reckon in this day and age of DNA and cameras a home invasion on some little old lady, now scarred for life from a violent home invasion with her car stolen and burned out, who in turn gets nothing by way of compensation for the mental torture or the need for a new car with insurance excess costs and loss on disposal etc should be suitably compensated by at least 20 grand plus !!!!
I reckon once the feral families get wind of that or a hear of a relative has to kick the can for 20 or 30 grand for their mongrel kid stealing and burning my new car, then the rest of them would soon arc up and have a completely different attitude to the actions of their little lovelies.
It is highly likely that Queensland could see a change of government due to the spineless mob they have in there now letting youth run riot for the last year or more. How would you like to be a shop owner in Alice Springs. No thanks, I have scratched Alice Springs and Townsville off my visiting list. I would suggest others add Dubbo to their drive thru list as well.
Sure, retain the education programs and the like and continue with monitoring bad behaviour. We didn't get any of that, all we got was a kick up the Ar$e from the local police sergeant for rocking the school librarian's tin roof and a very strong warning of what was coming next if we did similar again. We all quickly retired from our fledgling life of crime. My old man also gave me a thrashing for having to put up with an hour long earbashing from said school teacher when we all got lined up to visit and apologize. My fathers words and the words of my mate's father "Panther" are still ringing in my ears what our punishment would be if our respective father's had to put up with that again !!!!
in a lot of cases the parent's hands are tied if they try to enforce rules/behavior standards, the kick up the ass so to speak could result in more punishment for the parent if the authorities where to become involved.
it all comes back to " rights without responsiblity"
Charles Dickens once said, "The law is an ass". I would venture to say that nothing has changed, in fact it has got worse. Nearly everyday I see on the news that someone has committed another crime whilst out on bail and some of these young crims have a rap sheet as long as your arm.
Our resident lawyer has told us that we should educate the parents. That may well be the case but, it is the child that commits the crime so punishing the parents will not stop the little ratbags from doing it again. I do not totally dismiss Dmaxer's views. He is a product of his profession so would naturally think the that way. I find it inconceivable that a child above the age of ten does not know that he/she is committing a crime.
We have woke people sitting on the bench,(should be a park bench) who are suckers for a sob story. It is rapidly getting to the stage where folk are not safe in their homes, certainly not safe in the city after dark, and getting your car stolen is a very real threat.
A friend of ours, a policeman of twenty years standing, has often remarked that all the work that is undertaken to bring these people to justice, is wasted on do gooder Magistrates who consistently allow these crims back into society, irrespective of their previous record. So some police say "What is the point?" You would have to agree surely?
If employing a 1700's method of punishment is needed, (birch) then do it in public. This would have an added bonus of reducing the overcrowding of jails.
I doubt that there would be many who would re offend after a public caning. Of course this won't happen but, it's a pity all the same.
Over to you DMaxer.
ps magnarc, on a lighter note your suggestions of a public caning were in regular practice at every high school in the 60's when you stood in front of the class to receive it. But! maybe if then gummint could make some money out of public floggings I reckon she'd be a goer. We could hold them at concert arenas with ticketed sales to the general public, victims would receive free front row seats. It would outrate Jerry Springer by a country mile, here's hoping.
i never got to appear in front of any "woke" (whatever that means) magistrates or judges. They were tough and certainly weren't fooled. Sob stories are not admissible in submissions by the way.
When someone may receive a sentence that the uninformed think may be lenient, then there is a reason why. If a court hands down a sentence that is inadequate the the prosecution appeals and a court in a higher jurisdiction rehears the sentence and acts accordingly.
General whinging from lazy police about having their hands tied is total crap. They don't run the prosecution, the DPP does. The police are just witnesses for the prosecution so how do they know what the outcome is going to be.
Anyhow, I am done on this subject. It is called law and has evolved over hundreds and hundreds of years. You armchair experts can solve it all with beatings and gaol time and bankrupting parents. Leave me out of it as I feel another attack of ilithiophobia coming on.
Carrying out your own form of justice has risks. In this story a group found some juveniles that they thought intended to break into their car. So they took the juveniles to a remote location so they would have to walk home. A reasonable non violent solution to make the juveniles regret their (apparently) planned action. The story does not go into detail that would enable the reader to know how likely that would be.
But those adminstering the justice are now in serious trouble.
Teenagers charged with abduction
DMaxer said;
Leave me out of it as I feel another attack of ilithiophobia coming on.
Let us hope that you get better soon.
-- Edited by Magnarc on Sunday 21st of January 2024 12:17:27 PM
I guess there is always someone to get on their high horse and dictate to we underlings.
I think sometimes many cannot see the forest for the trees.
The plight of the victims is not recognised, merely seen as a byproduct of the disgraceful actions of others.
Another example is, in my country town, so often one is not aware of the death of someone local.
The reason being, that the local funeral directors for years have not published death notices in local papers and other media sources.
What was happening was people were getting their houses burglarised by low life's when they were attending their parents funerals and the like.
This is how low some of the local criminals are.
It is tough enough to lose a parent, yet then come home to a ransacked home.
Yet, some see this type of behaviour should go without any form of punishment, but to merely correct them in the error of their ways.
No wonder the system is broken.
Yep. I have been a victim of crime multiple times in many ways and suffered some awful losses and mental anguish from same.
Now I am stupid too.............
And for heinous crimes, the death penalty, yes, I know it's proven not to be a deterrent but, they certainly won't ever repeat their wicked actions.
poor old police man can probably save himself a lot of paperwork and frustration by doing not much in cases that he feels he is wasting his time
Clearly a course in remedial reading and interpretation could be of significant benefit for a few of the posters on this topic.
Perhaps one of you geniuses could point to anything I have written condoning the behaviour of criminal youths or advocating that they go unpunished.
I have just stated what the law is regarding sentencing and how it is applied. From that, out come the hand wringers, the lynching party and the perpetually outraged society to launch their attacks.
If your wonderful suggestions have so much merit perhaps you could illustrate by listing a few civilised countries where your suggestions have been implemented and are a roaring success.
Saudi Arabia or perhaps Singapore or China spring to mind?
May I recommend a tablespoon of DiaRelieve with your morning cornflakes.
we constantly hear that the offenders are repeat offenders an out on bail or on parole.