Its interesting that also according to the World Bank, only one of those countries has a higher per capita rate of CO2 emissions than Australia, being Canada.
On the latest figures, Australia per capita, emits more than double the CO2 of China, 7 times per person more than India, almost double Japan and Germany, and about 30% more than Russia.
No, we by no means emit the most CO2, but should not just say we can have no effect.
A better way of doing things, and reducing our per capita figure, must be of some benefit to the planet, and serve as an incentive to others.
I agree, paying more tax may not fix it, but paying more attention to what we do, and trying a bit harder may just help.
Are We Lost said
05:37 PM Dec 29, 2022
TheHeaths wrote:
A better way of doing things, and reducing our per capita figure, must be of some benefit to the planet, and serve as an incentive to others.
Incentive to others is all we can do.
..... must be of some benefit to the planet.
Have you actually thought about what our contribution could do? Following Ivan's comment about shutting down Australia, what difference in temperature would that make? Would it make 0.01 degree of difference?
I believe it is a lost cause trying to change the climate, and our efforts should instead be focused on living with it. Why put our country at financial disadvantage against the bigger ones who are the major polluters?
Cuppa said
06:04 PM Dec 29, 2022
dogbox wrote:
how many kids do you have ? how many kids do they have ? how many houses does your lot require to live in ? how many car do you and yours require ? the list goes on and on Most if the answer is more than one to any question then you are part of the problem just like the rest of us . all the things you require can be had for a fee we already pay for rubbish removal ,sewer treatment (environment), we pay for clean water (water rates )now we will have to pay for clean air( i thought it was a joke when i first seen bottled water will bottled air be next like SCUBA diving tanks ?)
All pertinent & important questions, but questions aren't the answer. Nor is blaming others whether that be the high consuming neighbour down the road, or another nation. That's been happening for decades & only serves to provide excuses for doing little or nothing worthwhile to effect needed change.
Folk say "It's too hard, what can little old me do", which is not surprising when the problem seems so huge & overwhelming but when something is overwhelming the only way to deal with it is to take it on in manageable sized chunks - one step at a time. It's not the size of the chunks which matter, we all have varying capacities for a wide range of reasons. What matters is that we each do what we can & by doing so show others we care enough to do something.
Change can be painfully slow but change is happening because there is are a growing number of people around the world who want it to happen & its happening thanks to the those who recognised we were wrecking our home decades ago, those who once were called radical did what they did. Today they are not seen as so radical, rather as the 'parents' or 'grandparents' who showed the way. We do still have the young radicals who do whatever they can to draw attention to the plight of our world. Sure it's the 'in thing' for some, but for other's it is more than a bit of excitement or a fad, it is truly important.
All we can do is what we can do individually, but it's by doing this, by providing example that movements begin & grow. One persons's caring is another's motivation. And the movement toward a sustainable planet can be seen everywhere now. What it needs more than anything is more & more individuals who try to make a difference in the best way they can, & to be seen to be doing so, providing motivation by their actions. In many ways it has become mainstream, even some corporate sectors are 'getting it'. Those, like the fossil fuel corporations with most to lose continue to battle & to do their utmost to influence their dwindling supporters, but they are fighting a losing battle.
In answer to the questions we have one kid, no grandkids & not likely to get any, they live in a house & we live in a house. The one kid was planned, the lack of grandkids was our son's decision. When our son dies he'll be the end of the line. We have one car, & he & his partner have one car. In another thread here that I posted in today I made reference to our lifestyle, certainly a more sustainable one (for the planet) than many, & importantly it has suited us very well. We didn't live that way for a pat on the back, or even to encourage others to do the same, it just felt like the right thing to do & provided us with more gains than losses.
What has been very pleasing, over the past year particularly, as we have come into contact with a variety of researchers, & people passionate about our natural environment, is that we have met people of all ages who are living their lives in ways which fit for them & for the planet. All different but with a priority to help look after the planet & to have a good life without letting consumerism dominate. Each have been inspirational & no doubt those with kids will have kids who are or will be inspirational too.
We shouldn't put ourselves as Australians down in regards to the influence we can have as a nation. The right actions by any nation can have a huge impact on the thinking of others around the world. Whatever you think about it you cannot deny the impact little old NZ had on the rest of the world when it rejected Nuclear Power. The ripples became waves right around the world. Little countries can have big voices when they have the right things to say & when they stand up to the bullies.
How many in our age group of 65+ have grown up having been influenced by the thinking behind songs like 'Big Yellow Taxi'? Living sustainably is not so alien as some might suggest.
86GTS said
06:33 PM Dec 29, 2022
The thing that I get p*ssed off with the most these days is the false impression of "we're doing the right thing" when its bleeding obvious that that's not the case.
I have very little interest in "modern life", its predominantly false & I'm happy to be a living dinosaur.
Sorry for being pessimist but I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel as far as the worlds environment is concerned.
I feel extremely lucky to have lived through better times, they were fantastic.
Cuppa said
07:23 PM Dec 29, 2022
86GTS wrote:
the false impression of "we're doing the right thing" when its bleeding obvious that that's not the case.
You are right, lip service in so many cases. I think lip service will continue until we stop leaving it all up to politicians. That's precisely why the young radicals are so important, doing whatever they can to wave the flag under the noses of those who should get up of their arses instead of 'shooting the messengers. People love to pour scorn on the likes of Greta Thunberg because she rocks the boat. We need more boat rockers to convert lip service into meaningful actions .........and those who have worked so hard (& effectively) to make a world problem into a divisive party political right/left issue for their own benefit need to be put back in their boxes.
TheHeaths said
07:24 PM Dec 29, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
TheHeaths wrote:
A better way of doing things, and reducing our per capita figure, must be of some benefit to the planet, and serve as an incentive to others.
Incentive to others is all we can do.
..... must be of some benefit to the planet.
Have you actually thought about what our contribution could do? Following Ivan's comment about shutting down Australia, what difference in temperature would that make? Would it make 0.01 degree of difference?
I believe it is a lost cause trying to change the climate, and our efforts should instead be focused on living with it. Why put our country at financial disadvantage against the bigger ones who are the major polluters?
Thats the way. Just do nothing.
No, I dont know what difference changes made in Australia would make. Do you or Ivan01? Of course not. So why not try something? I do know this, if we dont try, it wont have any effect!
As for major polluters, it depends if you take a total emissions view as quoted by Ivan, where Australia ranks 14th worst, or per capita, where we are in the top 10. Either way our record is not great.
As for financial disadvantages against others, there are plenty of other things doing that for us. I did suggest raising taxes wasnt necessarily the answer.
Anyhow, time will tell, and most of us wont be around to say I told you so, whatever the outcome.
Ivan 01 said
08:41 PM Dec 29, 2022
Ian,
The problem in Australia is that we as a country have elected to follow the actions of other countries whereby we are locking ourselves into the dream of the save the planet at any cost and it is coming at a cost. A big cost.
The worry is that we are comparing our country with these others when we are both geographically and resourcefully entirely different.
Even in these other countries they are, in many cases, not sustaining the result they might have hoped or planned for.
Blindly copying these failures for the sake of an imaginary and potentially impossible goal is foolhardy and will severely affect the future generations of our country.
In our country Solar, wind, and the like are not sustainable and neither is electric vehicles except for very local transport requirements and even the we can not charge them without fossil fuel.
The high horse that many are on is the most expensive trend that will be detrimental to many future generations.
Your last sentence says it all. It is obvious that the doubt exists and *whatever the outcome* as a statement is probably not the statement anyone wants to hear from a supporter of this scam and rort.
Ian, you asked this,
*I dont know what difference changes made in Australia would make. Do you or Ivan01?*
I might ask if you have ever been to China. If you have you might note the air pollution over there and probably would not ask that question of AWL or myself.
Are We Lost said
11:11 PM Dec 29, 2022
TheHeaths wrote:
Thats the way. Just do nothing.
No, I dont know what difference changes made in Australia would make. Do you or Ivan01? Of course not.
I am just focusing on two parts of your comment. The second one first.
Can you name any large venture where major economic costs are involved and not know what the target outcome is? I can just see the look on the bank manager's face when you say you want mega dollars, but then can't state what that expenditure will achieve. The cost to the country (which means us) is huge, yet nobody even tries to quantify what the result will be.
The first comment ....
You were responding to my post yet suggested I propose doing nothing. Not at all what I said. I said "our efforts should instead be focused on living with it".
How about an analogy. You have a riverfront farm and the floods are predicted to reach you in a few days. You know the efforts you can put into preventing your land from being inundated will be virtually useless. Should you continue working to do that anyway, or spend the time and money to prepare for it. Maybe you can salvage something, move your equipment to higher ground, and maybe all your house contents. Or you could continue and try with sandbags. What would you do?
Taking that analogy further, the floods have gone but you believe that climate change is going to bring more frequent and worse floods. You have a small amount of funds left. Do you spend that on solar and wind generation, trade the Land Cruiser for electric and other green projects, or do you start working on ways to make your property more resistant to floods (and perhaps drought)? Perhaps change what you grow so you have more chance of the farm surviving into the future?
Mein said
11:31 PM Dec 29, 2022
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that spirits are real and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that reincarnation occurs and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe in karma and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that peoples living in countries other than China, the USA, India, Russia, Japan, et al can do something (anything) about climate change and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that it is not too late to for humanity to avoid a future of 100 to 200 years of regular, repeated, extremely adverse weather events and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Cuppa said
06:16 AM Dec 30, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
Can you name any large venture where major economic costs are involved and not know what the target outcome is? I can just see the look on the bank manager's face when you say you want mega dollars, but then can't state what that expenditure will achieve. The cost to the country (which means us) is huge, yet nobody even tries to quantify what the result will be.
From where I stand there appears to be some major flaws in this sort of thinking.
It continues to take an 'economic' viewpoint, one which requires investment to achieve a profitable outcome. Here we are talking about unprecedented changes to our planet which has the potential to wipe out any & all economies & yet the inference is that we should continue to use the tool which essentially has created the problem in the first place -economics, or at least the way in which modern humans have allowed economics to rule our lives, where profit from infinite 'growth' has become the measure of success. We are watching the natural world around us crumble & disintegrate & yet we still use the same measure to evaluate our success as humans whilst we edge ever closer to a world where bank managers, & economics will have no meaning.
The cost of doing nothing will make the costs of trying irrelevant. If trying fails we will be in the same position of not having tried.
In my view better to try what we can regardless of cost in the hope of salvaging some sort of liveable world than the horror alternative.
I understand that there is a matter of belief involved in this. On one side of the fence are those who base their belief on disbelief of the science , & on the other side of the fence those who base their belief on scientific consensus as far as that is possible. The disbelievers find any way they can to pick holes in that consensus to suit their 'faith', often failing to understand that science is not a god that knows all, it's just the best tool that we have. The faith in economics is similar & mostly held by those who want to think that the future of an unliveable planet is nothing more than a temporary glitch which will come good - the way that economists think.
We do have to do what we can to best manage the changes that we know are coming, changing farming practices etc, but unless we take steps to try to ensure that those sort of adaptations are workable they are likely to be overwhelmed & futile. Rather like building a levee bank to protect from a tsunami.
I do not believe we (the worlds human population) can afford to do any less than 'whatever it takes', & that as long as we reduce our efforts to 'economics' we are pushing toward a point of no return. Heads in the sand & short term thinking wont help. Going all out regardless may not either, but at least there's a chance, but that chance reduces every day we dither & argue.
dogbox said
06:40 AM Dec 30, 2022
I do not believe we (the worlds human population) can afford to do any less than 'whatever it takes', & that as long as we reduce our efforts to 'economics' we are pushing toward a point of no return. Heads in the sand & short term thinking wont help. Going all out regardless may not either, but at least there's a chance, but that chance reduces every day we dither & argue.
quoted from cuppa
we are like a plague of mice, we will keep multiplying and demanding a standard of lifestyle that requires more resources that produce more waste (pollution) all mouse plaques in the past have come to an end either by a change in weather ,lack of food, disease ( flood ,drought, famine, ect)
we humans also resort to war which could, in the end be the thing that decides the fate of our planet
Cuppa said
06:54 AM Dec 30, 2022
dogbox wrote:
we are like a plague of mice, we will keep multiplying and demanding a standard of lifestyle that requires more resources that produce more waste (pollution) all mouse plaques in the past have come to an end either by a change in weather ,lack of food, disease ( flood ,drought, famine, ect) we humans also resort to war which could, in the end be the thing that decides the fate of our planet
Th difference between us & mice is that we have the intellect to understand far more about our own impacts on the world around us. We could choose to utilise that.
Ivan 01 said
07:23 AM Dec 30, 2022
The two words, *belief* and *disbelief* are powerful words.
It needs to be explained that in this debate why the word *disbelief* is almost always referred to the actions of those who generally dont support the claims by those who support the destruction of the world as we know it and why the word *belief* seems to be always reserved for those who are proposing our demise on the advice of so many self proclaimed *climate scientists*.
I suppose that the word *belief* might be more appropriate to support the views of a climate scientist if there didnt exist the old familiar money trail behind their irrational and historically unfounded theories. A climate scientist is like a used car salesman whereby there is always a profit at the end of their pitch. Used car salespeople survive on the gullible.
My suggestion is that the warming and cooling of our earth has been happening in both directions for tens of thousands of years and to suggest that this phenomenon can be cured by the injection of money is ludicrous.
I am the first one to agree that we need to be constantly vigilant on a world scale of all the variants of pollution in particular what we class as waste and continue to dump into landfill and oceans, but to burden Australians with the task of curing the *worlds problem* of waste is once again, ludicrous and is an impossible goal for a country of our size to achieve.
I am not saying do nothing but what I am saying is that our practices in this country are so far above those of so many other countries that we should be commended, not ridiculed and shamed into throwing huge sums of money into something of which no so called scientist or theorist can offer a positive result.
Just imagine if everyone on this planet planted two trees ( Angie and Robs suggestion from a past topic) and those trees were encouraged to grow and heaven forbid, procreate. Could we then measure the air pollution and have a body whose existence revolves around money tell us all that Australians are the second worst polluter of our air.
I dont think so because there would be little money in the planting of trees for any bank.
I made reference to China in another post.
Yesterday I went to a beach in North Queensland and I looked out to sea and I could clearly see the outline of an island that was reportedly 30 plus kilometres from the beach on which I was standing. I challenge any Australian to do that in China then in the same breath tell us that you will see an entire country 30 kilometres across the water from any spot on Chinas seashore. On any day in China you will be lucky if you can see 3 kilometres.
I might add that anyone who believes any figure or reported statistic from China most surely believes in the tooth fairy and rides around on a unicorn.
Anyway I am of the *belief* that our planet will cool and heat itself for the next tens of thousands of years and those that dont support this proven fact through genuine studies by genuine scientists are in fact the *DISBELIEVERS*.
Based on this I would much rather be classed as a *believer* than a *disbeliever* as we, the educated are so quickly branded in this debate.
dogbox said
08:17 AM Dec 30, 2022
Cuppa wrote:
dogbox wrote:
we are like a plague of mice, we will keep multiplying and demanding a standard of lifestyle that requires more resources that produce more waste (pollution) all mouse plaques in the past have come to an end either by a change in weather ,lack of food, disease ( flood ,drought, famine, ect) we humans also resort to war which could, in the end be the thing that decides the fate of our planet
Th difference between us & mice is that we have the intellect to understand far more about our own impacts on the world around us. We could choose to utilise that.
we could utilize our higher intellect if we learned from our past mistakes but we keep making the same mistakes and then keep making new ones to add to the list . if the human population keeps increasing at the present rate when will the world reach it's maximum capacity ?? what happens then ?
Cuppa said
08:23 AM Dec 30, 2022
dogbox wrote:
Cuppa wrote:
dogbox wrote:
we are like a plague of mice, we will keep multiplying and demanding a standard of lifestyle that requires more resources that produce more waste (pollution) all mouse plaques in the past have come to an end either by a change in weather ,lack of food, disease ( flood ,drought, famine, ect) we humans also resort to war which could, in the end be the thing that decides the fate of our planet
Th difference between us & mice is that we have the intellect to understand far more about our own impacts on the world around us. We could choose to utilise that.
we could utilize our higher intellect if we learned from our past mistakes but we keep making the same mistakes and then keep making new ones to add to the list . if the human population keeps increasing at the present rate when will the world reach it's maximum capacity ?? what happens then ?
Then your mice analogy becomes human reality. Seems like a pretty good reason to do whatever we can to try to avoid that scenario whilst we still can.
Cuppa said
08:57 AM Dec 30, 2022
Ivan 01 wrote:
Anyway I am of the *belief* that our planet will cool and heat itself for the next tens of thousands of years and those that dont support this proven fact through genuine studies by genuine scientists are in fact the *DISBELIEVERS*.
Based on this I would much rather be classed as a *believer* than a *disbeliever* as we, the educated are so quickly branded in this debate.
Seems that the 'believers' (according to your preferred semantics) are claiming (according to your statement) to be the 'educated', inferring that those who do not share your belief are 'uneducated'. I have trouble seeing how this is supportable. It's like those who refer to Sheeple somehow thinking (believing) that they have some special insight that anyone who fails to accept their conspiracy theories doesn't have.
What you have referred to as 'proven fact' is anything but a proven fact - it is a belief & the 'genuine scientists' that you choose to believe are a miniscule maverick minority within the world's scientific community, and according to the beliefs of those who gladly grab at their offerings the overwhelming consensus of the world's scientific community can be ignored because they have it all wrong.
An analogy is believing in the existence of god. Completely unproveable but a faith which helps many navigate their lives. Pointless disputing their faith/belief. I don't share your belief any more than I share a belief in god, but I believe that you believe what you believe.
dogbox said
08:57 AM Dec 30, 2022
mice ,rabbits , locus, humans ect eventually the environment will determine how many it can support and the rest will perish . we use our intellect to provide better medical care so we as humans live longer ,we alter our environment so more people can live in a given space ,cultivate crops so we can feed more people from a smaller area and our cities keep getting bigger demanding more resources creating more waste/pollution, eventually if we don't find a balance, we may go the way of the mice ,rabbits, locus ect
we are all part of the problem ,can we as individuals do much about it ?
i stated before i do my bit so i can feel warm and fuzzy ,but if i sort my rubbish an the garbage truck picks it all up in the same bin then dumps it in the same hole does not make a lot of difference when it comes to saving the planet.
Cuppa said
09:08 AM Dec 30, 2022
dogbox wrote:
mice ,rabbits , locus, humans ect eventually the environment will determine how many it can support and the rest will perish . we use our intellect to provide better medical care so we as humans live longer ,we alter our environment so more people can live in a given space ,cultivate crops so we can feed more people from a smaller area and our cities keep getting bigger demanding more resources creating more waste/pollution, eventually if we don't find a balance, we may go the way of the mice ,rabbits, locus ect
we are all part of the problem ,can we as individuals do much about it ? i stated before i do my bit so i can feel warm and fuzzy ,but if i sort my rubbish an the garbage truck picks it all up in the same bin then dumps it in the same hole does not make a lot of difference when it comes to saving the planet.
I'm not disagreeing with you dogbox, just pointing out that I feel your thinking about whether we can change our destiny is self defeating & circular. We both agree that we are all part of the problem. Whether we all as individuals can make a difference probably depends on whether or not we believe we can. Unless as individuals we believe & act as though we can make a difference, we are indeed doomed. Intellect without intelligence is worthless. Your example of the way we dispose of rubbish is an obvious example of lack of intelligence, & should be an argument for doing things better, not an argument for shrugging our shoulders. These things could change if there were less shoulder shrugging.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 30th of December 2022 09:30:04 AM
dogbox said
10:34 AM Dec 30, 2022
i am not shrugging my shoulders ,i still sort my waste so i am making my contribution . i paid my rates (taxes) got my rubbish picked up, it is now up to the next level higher up the chain to do their bit. should i pay more taxes ?
will my rubbish be treated any differently ?
NSW was sending rubbish by the B- double load to QLD because it was cheaper to transport and dump in QLD than process in NSW, out of sight out of mind someone else's problem now . how long can that sort of "solution" go on for before it bites us on the bum
Bicyclecamper said
11:08 AM Dec 30, 2022
I accept I am part of the problem as is everybody on this forum, and the planet, wanting a clean environment should be the number 1 request of all the people on the planet. This day and age with the technology that we have, their is no need for dirty.
Mein said
01:58 AM Dec 31, 2022
TAIPEI : Taiwan's central bank said on Friday it would begin incorporating climate change risks into its modelling and forecasts for inflation and economic growth . . . . .
The central bank pointed to the risk of "green swan" events, referring to unexpected environmental catastrophes connected with global warming that may trigger a financial crisis.
Other central banks around the world have already incorporated global warming into their planning, and Taiwan would follow suit, the central bank added.
The bank said it would "incorporate weather factors into forecast models and analyse their impact on forecasts such as prices and GDP growth".
The bank would also "establish an overall model related to climate change at the industry level" to gain an in-depth understanding of the impact of climate change risks on the economy and finance.. . . . .
RickJ said
09:28 AM Dec 31, 2022
Cuppa wrote:
Ivan 01 wrote:
Anyway I am of the *belief* that our planet will cool and heat itself for the next tens of thousands of years and those that dont support this proven fact through genuine studies by genuine scientists are in fact the *DISBELIEVERS*.
Based on this I would much rather be classed as a *believer* than a *disbeliever* as we, the educated are so quickly branded in this debate.
Seems that the 'believers' (according to your preferred semantics) are claiming (according to your statement) to be the 'educated', inferring that those who do not share your belief are 'uneducated'. I have trouble seeing how this is supportable. It's like those who refer to Sheeple somehow thinking (believing) that they have some special insight that anyone who fails to accept their conspiracy theories doesn't have.
What you have referred to as 'proven fact' is anything but a proven fact - it is a belief & the 'genuine scientists' that you choose to believe are a miniscule maverick minority within the world's scientific community, and according to the beliefs of those who gladly grab at their offerings the overwhelming consensus of the world's scientific community can be ignored because they have it all wrong.
An analogy is believing in the existence of god. Completely unproveable but a faith which helps many navigate their lives. Pointless disputing their faith/belief. I don't share your belief any more than I share a belief in god, but I believe that you believe what you believe.
My view and observation of the earths history of
temperature changing over thousands of years is a proven fact.
Geologists and scientists have proven this.
What has not been proven is the current rise in temperature is just simply not part of the trend of the earths climate variable as we have experienced for thousands of years. Conveniently blaming our lifestyle is surmised and supports an agenda but not proven.
This campaign all of a sudden began when it was theorised by certain financiers and even some countries, that money could be made by stating facts of our ever changing climate on earth. It is about taking money off the gullible and topping up the coffers of the ones who are in a position to exploit and worse still, this theft is being supported by those standing and supporting and promoting this rubbish.
Scare mongering at its best with the likes of G Thunberg promoting such nonsense. Might we observe that this little girl is a paid actress and we maybe should more closely observe her actual lifestyle. How dare she stand in front of a Media Camera and suggest that I have ruined *her* world.
Explain the recorded Ice Ages and the warming of the globe from each of those events. We dont mention the cooling of the earth that the planet experienced between the two Ice Age Periods. The reason this is not mentioned is because it is not within a *Climate Scientists* agenda. The scientist would not get paid if he/she were to report this part of the global temperature phenomenon that has existed for tens of thousands of years.
Ivans post above is a well prepared informative post and even his observation of the use of the word belief and disbelief being the terms commonly suggested for each side of the discussion is in fact stacked to suit the the description as required by the gullible.
The guilt trip the Australian public are being accused of by the World Bank is criminal.
As Ivan asked, Has any one observed the air pollution in China.
What many seem to conveniently forget is that China is not managed by an elected government. This country has no responsibility at all to be honest with or comply to any other world organisation committee with any information or action.
Just look at their current figures for Covid. The World Bank or anyone else for that matter has no reliable pollution figure from this country so how dare they create a list that puts Australia in such a controversial position.
Ivan said this above;
*I am the first one to agree that we need to be constantly vigilant on a world scale of all the variants of pollution in particular what we class as waste and continue to dump into landfill and oceans, but to burden Australians with the task of curing the *worlds problem* of waste is once again, ludicrous and is an impossible goal for a country of our size to achieve. I am not saying do nothing but what I am saying is that our practices in this country are so far above those of so many other countries that we should be commended, not ridiculed and shamed into throwing huge sums of money into something of which no so called scientist or theorist can offer a positive result.*
Well said Ivan.
Might I ask that there are so many in this country are willing to continually put us down for the way we do things.
If this trend is permitted to continue and to be accepted we wont have a country left.
Be very careful what you all support.
-- Edited by RickJ on Saturday 31st of December 2022 09:36:12 AM
dogbox said
10:01 AM Dec 31, 2022
i remember a song from many many years ago, that touched on this subject i think the name of it was IN THE YEAR 2525
Santa said
10:22 AM Dec 31, 2022
What people believe may or may not have anything to do with facts.
"A belief is an attitude that something is the case, or that some proposition is true.[1] In epistemology, philosophers use the term "belief" to refer to attitudes about the world which can be either true or false.[2] To believe something is to take it to be true; for instance, to believe that snow is white is comparable to accepting the truth of the proposition "snow is white". However, holding a belief does not require active introspection. For example, few carefully consider whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow, simply assuming that it will. Moreover, beliefs need not be occurrent (e.g. a person actively thinking "snow is white"), but can instead be dispositional (e.g. a person who if asked about the color of snow would assert "snow is white")."
From Wikipedia.
86GTS said
10:33 AM Dec 31, 2022
dogbox wrote:
i remember a song from many many years ago, that touched on this subject i think the name of it was IN THE YEAR 2525
Add to that Barry McGuire's - Eve Of Destruction.
Santa said
10:54 AM Dec 31, 2022
Are you suggesting that song writers are able to predict the future?
TheHeaths said
10:55 AM Dec 31, 2022
The world has heated and cooled many times over the history of the planet. I think all would consider that true. The evidence supports it.
Had the things done on this planet remained as they were, the likelihood is that would continue.
The only fly in the ointment so to speak is the formula of living has changed, with the Industrial Revolution, the invention of the ICE, the massive use of fossil fuels, and the general pattern of life now. As such we cannot confidently predict that the proven pattern of heating and cooling of the planet will continue as it was, as we are so far short of completing the length of time for one historic heating and cooling cycles.
Its part of the old concept - Continue making the same actions, you get the same outcome, change the actions you take, and the outcome will, or at least can, change.
From my view of the information available, such as weather records and personal observation, it appears that we are seeing some change in the outcomes we are getting. What I say is we should consider it may be possible, and look to see how we can try to limit, or alter the chances of an adverse outcome.
As I said previously, this is one discussion where the final answer may be many generations away. I hope that outcome is one the people of the day are happy to live with.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 31st of December 2022 06:20:10 PM
peter67 said
10:56 AM Dec 31, 2022
Well said RickJ and Ivan.
86GTS said
02:05 PM Dec 31, 2022
Santa wrote:
Are you suggesting that song writers are able to predict the future?
Not at all, but some of them try their best to make people aware. This ones about 40 years old.
Santa said
02:26 PM Dec 31, 2022
Aware of what, their own limited grasp of reality.
Best they stick to writing about love, rain, babies, flowers, trees and such.
On the latest figures, Australia per capita, emits more than double the CO2 of China, 7 times per person more than India, almost double Japan and Germany, and about 30% more than Russia.
No, we by no means emit the most CO2, but should not just say we can have no effect.
A better way of doing things, and reducing our per capita figure, must be of some benefit to the planet, and serve as an incentive to others.
I agree, paying more tax may not fix it, but paying more attention to what we do, and trying a bit harder may just help.
Incentive to others is all we can do.
..... must be of some benefit to the planet.
Have you actually thought about what our contribution could do? Following Ivan's comment about shutting down Australia, what difference in temperature would that make? Would it make 0.01 degree of difference?
All pertinent & important questions, but questions aren't the answer. Nor is blaming others whether that be the high consuming neighbour down the road, or another nation. That's been happening for decades & only serves to provide excuses for doing little or nothing worthwhile to effect needed change.
Folk say "It's too hard, what can little old me do", which is not surprising when the problem seems so huge & overwhelming but when something is overwhelming the only way to deal with it is to take it on in manageable sized chunks - one step at a time. It's not the size of the chunks which matter, we all have varying capacities for a wide range of reasons. What matters is that we each do what we can & by doing so show others we care enough to do something.
Change can be painfully slow but change is happening because there is are a growing number of people around the world who want it to happen & its happening thanks to the those who recognised we were wrecking our home decades ago, those who once were called radical did what they did. Today they are not seen as so radical, rather as the 'parents' or 'grandparents' who showed the way. We do still have the young radicals who do whatever they can to draw attention to the plight of our world. Sure it's the 'in thing' for some, but for other's it is more than a bit of excitement or a fad, it is truly important.
All we can do is what we can do individually, but it's by doing this, by providing example that movements begin & grow. One persons's caring is another's motivation. And the movement toward a sustainable planet can be seen everywhere now. What it needs more than anything is more & more individuals who try to make a difference in the best way they can, & to be seen to be doing so, providing motivation by their actions. In many ways it has become mainstream, even some corporate sectors are 'getting it'. Those, like the fossil fuel corporations with most to lose continue to battle & to do their utmost to influence their dwindling supporters, but they are fighting a losing battle.
In answer to the questions we have one kid, no grandkids & not likely to get any, they live in a house & we live in a house. The one kid was planned, the lack of grandkids was our son's decision. When our son dies he'll be the end of the line. We have one car, & he & his partner have one car. In another thread here that I posted in today I made reference to our lifestyle, certainly a more sustainable one (for the planet) than many, & importantly it has suited us very well. We didn't live that way for a pat on the back, or even to encourage others to do the same, it just felt like the right thing to do & provided us with more gains than losses.
What has been very pleasing, over the past year particularly, as we have come into contact with a variety of researchers, & people passionate about our natural environment, is that we have met people of all ages who are living their lives in ways which fit for them & for the planet. All different but with a priority to help look after the planet & to have a good life without letting consumerism dominate. Each have been inspirational & no doubt those with kids will have kids who are or will be inspirational too.
We shouldn't put ourselves as Australians down in regards to the influence we can have as a nation. The right actions by any nation can have a huge impact on the thinking of others around the world. Whatever you think about it you cannot deny the impact little old NZ had on the rest of the world when it rejected Nuclear Power. The ripples became waves right around the world. Little countries can have big voices when they have the right things to say & when they stand up to the bullies.
How many in our age group of 65+ have grown up having been influenced by the thinking behind songs like 'Big Yellow Taxi'? Living sustainably is not so alien as some might suggest.
I have very little interest in "modern life", its predominantly false & I'm happy to be a living dinosaur.
Sorry for being pessimist but I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel as far as the worlds environment is concerned.
I feel extremely lucky to have lived through better times, they were fantastic.
Thats the way. Just do nothing.
No, I dont know what difference changes made in Australia would make. Do you or Ivan01? Of course not. So why not try something? I do know this, if we dont try, it wont have any effect!
As for major polluters, it depends if you take a total emissions view as quoted by Ivan, where Australia ranks 14th worst, or per capita, where we are in the top 10. Either way our record is not great.
As for financial disadvantages against others, there are plenty of other things doing that for us. I did suggest raising taxes wasnt necessarily the answer.
Anyhow, time will tell, and most of us wont be around to say I told you so, whatever the outcome.
The problem in Australia is that we as a country have elected to follow the actions of other countries whereby we are locking ourselves into the dream of the save the planet at any cost and it is coming at a cost. A big cost.
The worry is that we are comparing our country with these others when we are both geographically and resourcefully entirely different.
Even in these other countries they are, in many cases, not sustaining the result they might have hoped or planned for.
Blindly copying these failures for the sake of an imaginary and potentially impossible goal is foolhardy and will severely affect the future generations of our country.
In our country Solar, wind, and the like are not sustainable and neither is electric vehicles except for very local transport requirements and even the we can not charge them without fossil fuel.
The high horse that many are on is the most expensive trend that will be detrimental to many future generations.
Your last sentence says it all. It is obvious that the doubt exists and *whatever the outcome* as a statement is probably not the statement anyone wants to hear from a supporter of this scam and rort.
Ian, you asked this,
*I dont know what difference changes made in Australia would make. Do you or Ivan01?*
I might ask if you have ever been to China. If you have you might note the air pollution over there and probably would not ask that question of AWL or myself.
I am just focusing on two parts of your comment. The second one first.
Can you name any large venture where major economic costs are involved and not know what the target outcome is? I can just see the look on the bank manager's face when you say you want mega dollars, but then can't state what that expenditure will achieve. The cost to the country (which means us) is huge, yet nobody even tries to quantify what the result will be.
The first comment ....
You were responding to my post yet suggested I propose doing nothing. Not at all what I said. I said "our efforts should instead be focused on living with it".
How about an analogy. You have a riverfront farm and the floods are predicted to reach you in a few days. You know the efforts you can put into preventing your land from being inundated will be virtually useless. Should you continue working to do that anyway, or spend the time and money to prepare for it. Maybe you can salvage something, move your equipment to higher ground, and maybe all your house contents. Or you could continue and try with sandbags. What would you do?
Taking that analogy further, the floods have gone but you believe that climate change is going to bring more frequent and worse floods. You have a small amount of funds left. Do you spend that on solar and wind generation, trade the Land Cruiser for electric and other green projects, or do you start working on ways to make your property more resistant to floods (and perhaps drought)? Perhaps change what you grow so you have more chance of the farm surviving into the future?
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that spirits are real and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that reincarnation occurs and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe in karma and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that peoples living in countries other than China, the USA, India, Russia, Japan, et al can do something (anything) about climate change and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
Some people genuinely, profoundly, believe that it is not too late to for humanity to avoid a future of 100 to 200 years of regular, repeated, extremely adverse weather events and there is literally no point in trying to convince them that they are misguided.
quoted from cuppa
we are like a plague of mice, we will keep multiplying and demanding a standard of lifestyle that requires more resources that produce more waste (pollution) all mouse plaques in the past have come to an end either by a change in weather ,lack of food, disease ( flood ,drought, famine, ect)
we humans also resort to war which could, in the end be the thing that decides the fate of our planet
Th difference between us & mice is that we have the intellect to understand far more about our own impacts on the world around us. We could choose to utilise that.
It needs to be explained that in this debate why the word *disbelief* is almost always referred to the actions of those who generally dont support the claims by those who support the destruction of the world as we know it and why the word *belief* seems to be always reserved for those who are proposing our demise on the advice of so many self proclaimed *climate scientists*.
I suppose that the word *belief* might be more appropriate to support the views of a climate scientist if there didnt exist the old familiar money trail behind their irrational and historically unfounded theories. A climate scientist is like a used car salesman whereby there is always a profit at the end of their pitch. Used car salespeople survive on the gullible.
My suggestion is that the warming and cooling of our earth has been happening in both directions for tens of thousands of years and to suggest that this phenomenon can be cured by the injection of money is ludicrous.
I am the first one to agree that we need to be constantly vigilant on a world scale of all the variants of pollution in particular what we class as waste and continue to dump into landfill and oceans, but to burden Australians with the task of curing the *worlds problem* of waste is once again, ludicrous and is an impossible goal for a country of our size to achieve.
I am not saying do nothing but what I am saying is that our practices in this country are so far above those of so many other countries that we should be commended, not ridiculed and shamed into throwing huge sums of money into something of which no so called scientist or theorist can offer a positive result.
Just imagine if everyone on this planet planted two trees ( Angie and Robs suggestion from a past topic) and those trees were encouraged to grow and heaven forbid, procreate. Could we then measure the air pollution and have a body whose existence revolves around money tell us all that Australians are the second worst polluter of our air.
I dont think so because there would be little money in the planting of trees for any bank.
I made reference to China in another post.
Yesterday I went to a beach in North Queensland and I looked out to sea and I could clearly see the outline of an island that was reportedly 30 plus kilometres from the beach on which I was standing. I challenge any Australian to do that in China then in the same breath tell us that you will see an entire country 30 kilometres across the water from any spot on Chinas seashore. On any day in China you will be lucky if you can see 3 kilometres.
I might add that anyone who believes any figure or reported statistic from China most surely believes in the tooth fairy and rides around on a unicorn.
Anyway I am of the *belief* that our planet will cool and heat itself for the next tens of thousands of years and those that dont support this proven fact through genuine studies by genuine scientists are in fact the *DISBELIEVERS*.
Based on this I would much rather be classed as a *believer* than a *disbeliever* as we, the educated are so quickly branded in this debate.
we could utilize our higher intellect if we learned from our past mistakes but we keep making the same mistakes and then keep making new ones to add to the list .
if the human population keeps increasing at the present rate when will the world reach it's maximum capacity ?? what happens then ?
Then your mice analogy becomes human reality. Seems like a pretty good reason to do whatever we can to try to avoid that scenario whilst we still can.
Seems that the 'believers' (according to your preferred semantics) are claiming (according to your statement) to be the 'educated', inferring that those who do not share your belief are 'uneducated'. I have trouble seeing how this is supportable. It's like those who refer to Sheeple somehow thinking (believing) that they have some special insight that anyone who fails to accept their conspiracy theories doesn't have.
What you have referred to as 'proven fact' is anything but a proven fact - it is a belief & the 'genuine scientists' that you choose to believe are a miniscule maverick minority within the world's scientific community, and according to the beliefs of those who gladly grab at their offerings the overwhelming consensus of the world's scientific community can be ignored because they have it all wrong.
An analogy is believing in the existence of god. Completely unproveable but a faith which helps many navigate their lives. Pointless disputing their faith/belief. I don't share your belief any more than I share a belief in god, but I believe that you believe what you believe.
we are all part of the problem ,can we as individuals do much about it ?
i stated before i do my bit so i can feel warm and fuzzy ,but if i sort my rubbish an the garbage truck picks it all up in the same bin then dumps it in the same hole does not make a lot of difference when it comes to saving the planet.
I'm not disagreeing with you dogbox, just pointing out that I feel your thinking about whether we can change our destiny is self defeating & circular. We both agree that we are all part of the problem. Whether we all as individuals can make a difference probably depends on whether or not we believe we can. Unless as individuals we believe & act as though we can make a difference, we are indeed doomed. Intellect without intelligence is worthless. Your example of the way we dispose of rubbish is an obvious example of lack of intelligence, & should be an argument for doing things better, not an argument for shrugging our shoulders. These things could change if there were less shoulder shrugging.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 30th of December 2022 09:30:04 AM
will my rubbish be treated any differently ?
NSW was sending rubbish by the B- double load to QLD because it was cheaper to transport and dump in QLD than process in NSW, out of sight out of mind someone else's problem now . how long can that sort of "solution" go on for before it bites us on the bum
TAIPEI : Taiwan's central bank said on Friday it would begin incorporating climate change risks into its modelling and forecasts for inflation and economic growth . . . . .
The central bank pointed to the risk of "green swan" events, referring to unexpected environmental catastrophes connected with global warming that may trigger a financial crisis.
Other central banks around the world have already incorporated global warming into their planning, and Taiwan would follow suit, the central bank added.
The bank said it would "incorporate weather factors into forecast models and analyse their impact on forecasts such as prices and GDP growth".
The bank would also "establish an overall model related to climate change at the industry level" to gain an in-depth understanding of the impact of climate change risks on the economy and finance. . . . . .
My view and observation of the earths history of
temperature changing over thousands of years is a proven fact.
Geologists and scientists have proven this.
What has not been proven is the current rise in temperature is just simply not part of the trend of the earths climate variable as we have experienced for thousands of years. Conveniently blaming our lifestyle is surmised and supports an agenda but not proven.
This campaign all of a sudden began when it was theorised by certain financiers and even some countries, that money could be made by stating facts of our ever changing climate on earth. It is about taking money off the gullible and topping up the coffers of the ones who are in a position to exploit and worse still, this theft is being supported by those standing and supporting and promoting this rubbish.
Scare mongering at its best with the likes of G Thunberg promoting such nonsense. Might we observe that this little girl is a paid actress and we maybe should more closely observe her actual lifestyle. How dare she stand in front of a Media Camera and suggest that I have ruined *her* world.
Explain the recorded Ice Ages and the warming of the globe from each of those events. We dont mention the cooling of the earth that the planet experienced between the two Ice Age Periods. The reason this is not mentioned is because it is not within a *Climate Scientists* agenda. The scientist would not get paid if he/she were to report this part of the global temperature phenomenon that has existed for tens of thousands of years.
Ivans post above is a well prepared informative post and even his observation of the use of the word belief and disbelief being the terms commonly suggested for each side of the discussion is in fact stacked to suit the the description as required by the gullible.
The guilt trip the Australian public are being accused of by the World Bank is criminal.
As Ivan asked, Has any one observed the air pollution in China.
What many seem to conveniently forget is that China is not managed by an elected government. This country has no responsibility at all to be honest with or comply to any other world organisation committee with any information or action.
Just look at their current figures for Covid. The World Bank or anyone else for that matter has no reliable pollution figure from this country so how dare they create a list that puts Australia in such a controversial position.
Ivan said this above;
*I am the first one to agree that we need to be constantly vigilant on a world scale of all the variants of pollution in particular what we class as waste and continue to dump into landfill and oceans, but to burden Australians with the task of curing the *worlds problem* of waste is once again, ludicrous and is an impossible goal for a country of our size to achieve.
I am not saying do nothing but what I am saying is that our practices in this country are so far above those of so many other countries that we should be commended, not ridiculed and shamed into throwing huge sums of money into something of which no so called scientist or theorist can offer a positive result.*
Well said Ivan.
Might I ask that there are so many in this country are willing to continually put us down for the way we do things.
If this trend is permitted to continue and to be accepted we wont have a country left.
Be very careful what you all support.
-- Edited by RickJ on Saturday 31st of December 2022 09:36:12 AM
What people believe may or may not have anything to do with facts.
"A belief is an attitude that something is the case, or that some proposition is true.[1] In epistemology, philosophers use the term "belief" to refer to attitudes about the world which can be either true or false.[2] To believe something is to take it to be true; for instance, to believe that snow is white is comparable to accepting the truth of the proposition "snow is white". However, holding a belief does not require active introspection. For example, few carefully consider whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow, simply assuming that it will. Moreover, beliefs need not be occurrent (e.g. a person actively thinking "snow is white"), but can instead be dispositional (e.g. a person who if asked about the color of snow would assert "snow is white")."
From Wikipedia.
Add to that Barry McGuire's - Eve Of Destruction.
Are you suggesting that song writers are able to predict the future?
The world has heated and cooled many times over the history of the planet. I think all would consider that true. The evidence supports it.
Had the things done on this planet remained as they were, the likelihood is that would continue.
The only fly in the ointment so to speak is the formula of living has changed, with the Industrial Revolution, the invention of the ICE, the massive use of fossil fuels, and the general pattern of life now. As such we cannot confidently predict that the proven pattern of heating and cooling of the planet will continue as it was, as we are so far short of completing the length of time for one historic heating and cooling cycles.
Its part of the old concept - Continue making the same actions, you get the same outcome, change the actions you take, and the outcome will, or at least can, change.
From my view of the information available, such as weather records and personal observation, it appears that we are seeing some change in the outcomes we are getting. What I say is we should consider it may be possible, and look to see how we can try to limit, or alter the chances of an adverse outcome.
As I said previously, this is one discussion where the final answer may be many generations away. I hope that outcome is one the people of the day are happy to live with.
-- Edited by TheHeaths on Saturday 31st of December 2022 06:20:10 PM
Not at all, but some of them try their best to make people aware. This ones about 40 years old.
Aware of what, their own limited grasp of reality.
Best they stick to writing about love, rain, babies, flowers, trees and such.