Towball Weight, Caravan Design and Proper Loading.
Red Fox said
06:18 PM Jan 30, 2023
IMO members should just ignore this yobar bloke. He is sucking you all in. Even got some trying to solve a problem about formatting that does not exist.
Not adding in spaces and paragraphs where they should be is an old trick. It makes it harder to select what he types and therefore identify where he is bull ****ting. It's clear he is doing his best to cause arguments and big note himself. Simply put a trouble maker.
The other thing I have noticed is he only posts about weights. That is likely because he is pretty dumb when it comes to other subjects. I notice he continues to post the same 12 or so pic found on the internet. Really, why do this? Answer to make it look like he is smart and worldly when he is really just a trouble maker baiting members. I mean, can he actually use a camera?
He may not even own a caravan.
I've also noticed he refuses to provide any qualifications (often requested) yet promotes himself as some sort of expert. More self promotion. But zero proof.
Again, IMHO just ignore this individual. He is a person with personality problems and better to never talk/communicate or meet with him. He is a real worry.
Should not be here.
gold dandelion said
08:49 PM Jan 30, 2023
MMMmmm I wonder who Red Fox is, I am guessing and ex member who was banned and had a previous run in with the person in conversation, he does seem to know a bit about the said person for only being a recently new member and very little posts.
Besides this post was just about dead and buried, well up until now.
Ivan 01 said
10:11 PM Jan 30, 2023
gold dandelion wrote:
MMMmmm I wonder who Red Fox is, I am guessing and ex member who was banned and had a previous run in with the person in conversation, he does seem to know a bit about the said person for only being a recently new member and very little posts. Besides this post was just about dead and buried, well up until now.
Maybe, but he has been on here for a little while.
He did complain in other topics about Yobarr constantly ranting about weights with claims of him being off topic.
Yobarr has annoyed many members in the past.
Not my argument so I will say no more.
Here is the lists of topics Red Fox has responded in.
You can read them here in this screen shot and work it out for yourself
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Monday 30th of January 2023 10:13:51 PM
If anyone reads any of the topics that remain in the sub forum or Techies or anywhere where there has been vigorous debate then you would find that many members have gone to greener forums and at least some of them have openly stated why they will leave here.
Its a 79 or the highway unfortunately but this has been the case since his day one. He has been removed from other forums for similar antics.
I think Red Fox is just another disgruntled contributor. Lets hope he stays with us and is not put off and leave the forum.
yobarr said
10:45 AM Jan 31, 2023
RickJ wrote:
If anyone reads any of the topics that remain in the sub forum or Techies or anywhere where there has been vigorous debate then you would find that many members have gone to greener forums and at least some of them have openly stated why they will leave here.
Its a 79 or the highway unfortunately but this has been the case since his day one. He has been removed from other forums for similar antics.
I think Red Fox is just another disgruntled contributor. Lets hope he stays with us and is not put off and leave the forum.
Richard, I had chosen not to respond to the rubbish posted earlier by a person who has only recently become a been a member, but the inaccuracies in your post I will address.
Firstly, it was not I that told the forum that I have a 79, this information being posted by another member who I had previously crossed swords with on another forum.
Secondly, could you kindly tell us what "other forums" I have been "removed from"? To the best of my knowledge I have been removed from only one such forum, and with this forum I was summarily removed, with no right of reply, by a senior moderator.
The moderator, a little RAY of sunshine, took great offence when I was able to prove beyond doubt that my assertions regarding the inability of a popular vehicle to safely tow more than about 3000kg ATM were indeed correct, despite its claimed 3500kg towing ability.
DOG trailer "Yes", but PIG trailer "No". This chap owned one of these cars.
Never have I posted anything that I cannot prove to be true, which unfortunately doesn't sit well with some. Sometimes the truth hurts?
Say what you mean, and mean what you say.
Lastly, like Robert, I wonder how Red Fox learned so much about me in such a short time? Perhaps he also knows that I once lived in Geelong? Cheers
P.S Nice car, but not mine.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 31st of January 2023 10:49:27 AM
One only has to read back through the range of existing weight and WDH topics to learn of your antics.
What you say and do is entirely up to you but it could be easily shown that several members have left this forum after being continually belittled by you. Just go over to the other one and check the names. Most of them are there now.
All Red Fox is doing is highliting this fact, exactly the same as has so many others.
You know what Yobarr I think at times we have all tried to be friendly but to be honest your *holier than tho* attitude is something that maybe only a close family member would tolerate.
Lastly, like Robert, I wonder how Red Fox learned so much about me in such a short time?
I think it was one of Robs employees that was aware of your reputation when driving on the eastern seaboard. Apparently within the industry you were very well known. Red Fox is only mentioning things that have previously been raised in various topics.
If you might be insinuating that Red Fox is Rob then I can assure you it is not.
Red Fox joined before Rob was shafted and I have spoken to Rob and his words were that he would not come back on here under any circumstances.
In fact his words on the phone were that at least some of the existing members deserve you Yobarr and also a couple of others that arent related to anything being said in this topic so their names arent mentioned.
Dont panic mate, eventually all those who you have belittled and ostracised will be gone as there is only so much ridicule a person who asks a genuine question can take. Dont you notice that many of those who cop a tirade of your personal views just dont come back or even reply.
The contents from the list of most of Red Foxes previous posts above, are testament to that.
The 79 is either the only way or the highway according to you and this suggestion has been obviously evident since your day one.
If you could find a way to communicate what you want to say to others in a polite manner and with some respect then a lot of these type of comments by Red Fox and many others would not come up.
Bill B said
12:37 PM Jan 31, 2023
yobarr wrote:
The moderator, a little RAY of sunshine, took great offence when I was able to prove beyond doubt that my assertions regarding the inability of a popular vehicle to safely tow more than about 3000kg ATM were indeed correct, despite its claimed 3500kg towing ability.
DOG trailer "Yes", but PIG trailer "No". This chap owned one of these cars.
Yes he owns a 200 Cruiser but he has towed his van with an Ford F350 for many years (and well before you were banned), so your argument doesn't hold true
yobarr said
01:39 PM Jan 31, 2023
Good afternoon Ivan. Despite your assumptions, please understand that there is no way that I was insinuating that Red Fox is Rob. Please accept my sincere apologies if anything I penned suggested that it was. As discussed in PMs with you, I have the greatest of respect for Rob, and indeed for Clarky, both of whom I'd like to meet one day. Not sure where they live though. Certainly not Geelong.
And as for your comment about the driver whose "reputation when driving on the Eastern Seaboard" is concerned, previously I have pointed out that that person was not me. Unless you have evidence to the contrary could I ask you to refrain from making such comments? If you can name the model of truck I drove that would be a start, but I am unaware of any such "reputation". When driving I worked crazy hours, and certainly did not have time to socialise at truck stops and the like.
Finally, could I point out that although some home truths can cause annoyance to people who ask questions, when it comes to weights there is no room for opinion. Your weights are right, or they're wrong. Not negotiable. Many people who ask questions about weights clearly suspect that their weights are wrong, but post in the hope that somebody will give them the reassurance that they desperately seek. When I point out the facts, and provide figures to support my advice, I immediately become the villain.
There is nothing that I have ever posted that I cannot prove to be true. All I ask is "Please don't shoot the messenger".
I trust that this note clears things up for you? Have a great day. Cheers
Red Fox said
09:53 PM Jan 31, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Recently I visited a business that supplies a wide range of caravan parts, and also offers a complete caravan repair service. As I neared the entrance to the business I noticed an older couple messing around with one of those so-called "towball weight scales", so I stopped to chat. The van was a single axle so-called "off road" model, with good ground clearance and wide 15" wheels with flash AT tyres, but the axle was waaay too far back, with very little rear overhang. They had just purchased a flash new jockey wheel which had two wheels, and was allegedly the "bees' knees" of jockey wheels, and they now were in the process of pre-purchase testing a "towball weight scale". Seems their previous factory fitted jockey wheel had simply collapsed under the towball weight when they dropped the van at a van park to go exploring. Because I had previously bought and tested several different models of towball scales I knew how hopelessly inaccurate they are, with my tests not only giving a wide range of readings, but none was anywhere near correct, so I offered to test their weight for them. Towball weight was close to 350kg so we then looked for ways to reduce this, but it soon became apparent that the problem was simply poor design. All 3 water tanks were in front of the axle, with nothing except a couple of bicycles on the rear bumper. The solitary spare wheel sat on the drawbar, in front of a HUGE factory-fitted "toolbox" that had all manner of "stuff" in it. Because their tow vehicle was a single-cab 79 series Landcruiser ute with an enclosed steel canopy we discussed putting the van's spare wheel in there for a start, but they already had 2 spare 16" wheels in there, along with all sorts of other "essentials". The previous day they had weighed the 'van and told that, loaded and ready for travel, it weighed 2600kg. Because towball weight was 350kg it followed that GTM ( weight on van wheels) was 2250kg, but ATM was only 2600kg, so I was snookered. Because the 79 has a rear axle capacity of 2300kg ex-factory, and this car had had a GVM upgrade, we decided to run the whole thing over a weighbridge to check axle weights. Bad news! Front axle was only 1200kg, rear axle 2600kg and van's axle was 2250kg, for all-up weight (GCM?) of 6050kg. Clearly their car was poorly loaded. The van's AGR (Axle group rating) was 2600kg so I suggested that it might be worth getting an ATM upgrade to maybe 2900kg and shifting a couple of water tanks to behind the axle. Problem was that they were around 4000km from their home. Since I could do little more to assist I suggested that they simply had to get rid of weight out of the car and run with empty water tanks, perhaps carrying a couple of 20 litre jerry cans of water inside the van, behind the axle. Like so many people, this couple had little understanding of weights, thinking that they were safe with their GVM upgraded LC79, but they had been caught out by poor caravan design that had the forward length at least 3 times the rear overhang. Caveat Emptor. Cheers.
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 16th of December 2022 10:19:03 PM
No paragraphs.
Red Fox said
09:56 PM Jan 31, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Blues Man wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr:
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
I agree with Mike Harding Yobarr, you must learn to paragraph.
I started to read your post then about half way through it i gave up . All the words were so close together that i lost my place
and then i gave up reading the rest , but hey , each to their own.
Cheers.
Hi Patrick. Perhaps, unlike Mike, you have not seen my previous explanations of why my posts have no paragraphs, as such. You can rest assured that I have a very good command of grammar, punctuation and the English language, but my iPad won't play the game!
If I start a new paragraph at the left margin, when I post the script the paragraph seems to start in any one of a number of places on the viewer's screen.
In order to assist those whose concentration span does not seem long enough to uninterruptedly read a few lines I will make enquiries with an iPad expert when next I am in a bigger town. Cheers.
Just another excuse. Perhaps just more blatant BS?
Red Fox said
09:59 PM Jan 31, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Good afternoon Ivan. Despite your assumptions, please understand that there is no way that I was insinuating that Red Fox is Rob. Please accept my sincere apologies if anything I penned suggested that it was. As discussed in PMs with you, I have the greatest of respect for Rob, and indeed for Clarky, both of whom I'd like to meet one day. Not sure where they live though. Certainly not Geelong.
And as for your comment about the driver whose "reputation when driving on the Eastern Seaboard" is concerned, previously I have pointed out that that person was not me. Unless you have evidence to the contrary could I ask you to refrain from making such comments? If you can name the model of truck I drove that would be a start, but I am unaware of any such "reputation". When driving I worked crazy hours, and certainly did not have time to socialise at truck stops and the like.
Finally, could I point out that although some home truths can cause annoyance to people who ask questions, when it comes to weights there is no room for opinion. Your weights are right, or they're wrong. Not negotiable. Many people who ask questions about weights clearly suspect that their weights are wrong, but post in the hope that somebody will give them the reassurance that they desperately seek. When I point out the facts, and provide figures to support my advice, I immediately become the villain.
There is nothing that I have ever posted that I cannot prove to be true. All I ask is "Please don't shoot the messenger".
I trust that this note clears things up for you? Have a great day. Cheers
Oops, suddenly we have paragraphs. But isn't that impossible?
Or is someone playing games......again. Just ask yourself why.
Red Fox said
11:14 PM Jan 31, 2023
yobarr wrote:
Blues Man wrote:
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr:
I have only one word to say to you... paragraphs.... :)
I agree with Mike Harding Yobarr, you must learn to paragraph.
I started to read your post then about half way through it i gave up . All the words were so close together that i lost my place
and then i gave up reading the rest , but hey , each to their own.
Cheers.
Hi Patrick. Perhaps, unlike Mike, you have not seen my previous explanations of why my posts have no paragraphs, as such. You can rest assured that I have a very good command of grammar, punctuation and the English language, but my iPad won't play the game!
If I start a new paragraph at the left margin, when I post the script the paragraph seems to start in any one of a number of places on the viewer's screen.
In order to assist those whose concentration span does not seem long enough to uninterruptedly read a few lines I will make enquiries with an iPad expert when next I am in a bigger town. Cheers.
What was it he said again? "but my iPad won't play the game! "
Mmmmm.......?
Red Fox said
11:20 PM Jan 31, 2023
Wow, that's strange. His ipad seemed to work fine here.
As I stated earlier.
"Not adding in spaces and paragraphs where they should be is an old trick.
It makes it harder to select what he types and therefore identify where he is bull ****ting. It's clear he is doing his best to cause arguments and big note himself. Simply put a trouble maker."
I reckon you should give yobarr a bit of slack who cares about paragraphs and spelling we are not doing a HSC exam .
Yobarr does know about weights and the effects it has on your vehicle I know some people might be offended by the way he picks on certain vehicles.
He is a road train driver and I reckon he knows more than the average know it all caravaner.
But at the end of the day every kg you add to your vehicle such as Bullbars heavy duty tow bars and not to mention a tinny which I see all the time on Lc200 landcruisers which have a payload of around 800 kg at best can effect insurance if their is an incident.
You dont have to be a rocket scientist to do some simple maths here a typical van a lc200 and Im not picking on the car I reckon its a great vehicle but for its load or GVM its pathetic.
GCM weight is still seperate to van and car just cause its combined does not mean you can have more weight on one and take it from the other.
The tow ball 300 kg on average
Fuel 100kg
2 adults. 160 kg
Bull tow bar. 100 kg
Roof rack 30 kg
Boat loader. 40 kg
Tinny. 120 kg
Fridge loaded. 50 kg
Extras. 100 kg
Already overloaded and have not checked out the van yet .
I myself have a HC license and have driven all over Aussie towing my van many times pushing the weight limits but it comes down to a balanced rig good brakes and sometimes good luck when heavy braking is required.
I have a payload of 1.7 ton in the dmax and 800 kg in van and has been through some rough country .
Cheers hope I did not offend anyone
travelyounger said
01:50 AM Feb 6, 2023
OH
I typed in paragraphs but did not happen Im very sorry
KJB said
08:59 AM Feb 6, 2023
travelyounger wrote:
OH I typed in paragraphs but did not happen Im very sorry
You are right....this is not a HSC Exam - forget the "grammar pedantics"
A WDH cannot alter Ball Weight but it can adjust Axle Weights (that is its purpose)..
A Land Cruiser 200 Series is a comfortable,powerful,durable vehicle but its Legal Combined Load Carrying/Towing Capacity is quite a margin less than many people "imagine" or expect ......Buyer beware.
Brenda and Alan said
09:44 PM Feb 6, 2023
A WDH cannot alter Ball Weight but it can adjust Axle Weights (that is its purpose)..
A WDH is a powerful spring which when tensioned applies a lifting force opposing the towball down load.
It does for this very reason reduce the towball down load.
If it did not there would be no change noted on the weighbridge when a WDH is tensioned so why would anybody use one.
Alan
PS This post was meant as reply KJB and was started as a quote, but i seen to have a lot of problems doing things this way with this particular forum
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Monday 6th of February 2023 09:48:44 PM
Red Fox said
10:33 PM Feb 6, 2023
It has nothing to do with HSC exams.
It's about a charlatan conning members. It seems that some are happy being misled.
travelyounger said
07:43 AM Feb 7, 2023
Red Fox wrote:
It has nothing to do with HSC exams. It's about a charlatan conning members. It seems that some are happy being misled.
Misled ??
Some people find it hard to face the facts
Greg 1 said
12:34 PM Feb 7, 2023
Whilst I do not agree with all of yobarr's ramblings on WDH's and McHitches, give him a break with the paragraph thing.
I also have an issue with inserting paragraphs on this forum from my tablet or phone if I enter the forum topics through the recent topics section as I have done today.
If I enter the full site section and then my personal section, I have no issue with the paragraph thing.
I have typed this reply complete with paragraphs but when I post it, it will not put the paragraphs in. So not yobarrs fault, it's something strange with this particular forum.
travelyounger said
03:45 PM Feb 7, 2023
X2
shakey55 said
04:49 AM Feb 8, 2023
Sometimes I just wonder if remaining in this forum is worth it. Just about over this
TheHeaths said
08:54 AM Feb 8, 2023
Ones just been closed, and I suggest another one (this one) is on its way.
My thoughts exactly shakey55.
Eaglemax said
08:40 PM Aug 24, 2023
This thread is a revelation. Following Yobarrs ban from another forum for his methods of insults and humiliation slowly he has reached a similar level here. You dare not post anything that rubs him up the wrong way or you'll get the mother in law treatment.
My latest thread in Weights sub section (roads)got that reaction and his abuse was cut out by admin. Furthermore he was proven wrong factually and you can read that for yourself but no apology came but it proves his statements here saying he's never proved wrong are flawed.
The sad part is that he upsets many people due to his delivery of his self educated knowledge on weights which is admirable BTW and has no credible ability in how to communicate with men effectively and tactfully.
We can all fall into an arrogance of persona if we are experts in one field, but purely one field doesn't qualify as an expert person that can tell it nicely leaving most grateful.
You know a lot Yobarr for a man with a lot to learn that never will.
IMO members should just ignore this yobar bloke.
He is sucking you all in. Even got some trying to solve a problem about formatting that does not exist.
Not adding in spaces and paragraphs where they should be is an old trick.
It makes it harder to select what he types and therefore identify where he is bull ****ting. It's clear he is doing his best to cause arguments and big note himself. Simply put a trouble maker.
The other thing I have noticed is he only posts about weights. That is likely because he is pretty dumb when it comes to other subjects. I notice he continues to post the same 12 or so pic found on the internet. Really, why do this? Answer to make it look like he is smart and worldly when he is really just a trouble maker baiting members. I mean, can he actually use a camera?
He may not even own a caravan.
I've also noticed he refuses to provide any qualifications (often requested) yet promotes himself as some sort of expert. More self promotion. But zero proof.
Again, IMHO just ignore this individual. He is a person with personality problems and better to never talk/communicate or meet with him. He is a real worry.
Should not be here.
Besides this post was just about dead and buried, well up until now.
Maybe, but he has been on here for a little while.
He did complain in other topics about Yobarr constantly ranting about weights with claims of him being off topic.
Yobarr has annoyed many members in the past.
Not my argument so I will say no more.
Here is the lists of topics Red Fox has responded in.
You can read them here in this screen shot and work it out for yourself
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Monday 30th of January 2023 10:13:51 PM
Its a 79 or the highway unfortunately but this has been the case since his day one. He has been removed from other forums for similar antics.
I think Red Fox is just another disgruntled contributor. Lets hope he stays with us and is not put off and leave the forum.
Richard, I had chosen not to respond to the rubbish posted earlier by a person who has only recently become a been a member, but the inaccuracies in your post I will address.
Firstly, it was not I that told the forum that I have a 79, this information being posted by another member who I had previously crossed swords with on another forum.
Secondly, could you kindly tell us what "other forums" I have been "removed from"? To the best of my knowledge I have been removed from only one such forum, and with this forum I was summarily removed, with no right of reply, by a senior moderator.
The moderator, a little RAY of sunshine, took great offence when I was able to prove beyond doubt that my assertions regarding the inability of a popular vehicle to safely tow more than about 3000kg ATM were indeed correct, despite its claimed 3500kg towing ability.
DOG trailer "Yes", but PIG trailer "No". This chap owned one of these cars.
Never have I posted anything that I cannot prove to be true, which unfortunately doesn't sit well with some. Sometimes the truth hurts?
Say what you mean, and mean what you say.
Lastly, like Robert, I wonder how Red Fox learned so much about me in such a short time? Perhaps he also knows that I once lived in Geelong? Cheers
P.S Nice car, but not mine.
-- Edited by yobarr on Tuesday 31st of January 2023 10:49:27 AM
Good morning Yobarr
One only has to read back through the range of existing weight and WDH topics to learn of your antics.
What you say and do is entirely up to you but it could be easily shown that several members have left this forum after being continually belittled by you.
Just go over to the other one and check the names. Most of them are there now.
All Red Fox is doing is highliting this fact, exactly the same as has so many others.
You know what Yobarr I think at times we have all tried to be friendly but to be honest your *holier than tho* attitude is something that maybe only a close family member would tolerate.
Lastly, like Robert, I wonder how Red Fox learned so much about me in such a short time?
I think it was one of Robs employees that was aware of your reputation when driving on the eastern seaboard. Apparently within the industry you were very well known. Red Fox is only mentioning things that have previously been raised in various topics.
If you might be insinuating that Red Fox is Rob then I can assure you it is not.
Red Fox joined before Rob was shafted and I have spoken to Rob and his words were that he would not come back on here under any circumstances.
In fact his words on the phone were that at least some of the existing members deserve you Yobarr and also a couple of others that arent related to anything being said in this topic so their names arent mentioned.
Dont panic mate, eventually all those who you have belittled and ostracised will be gone as there is only so much ridicule a person who asks a genuine question can take. Dont you notice that many of those who cop a tirade of your personal views just dont come back or even reply.
The contents from the list of most of Red Foxes previous posts above, are testament to that.
The 79 is either the only way or the highway according to you and this suggestion has been obviously evident since your day one.
If you could find a way to communicate what you want to say to others in a polite manner and with some respect then a lot of these type of comments by Red Fox and many others would not come up.
Yes he owns a 200 Cruiser but he has towed his van with an Ford F350 for many years (and well before you were banned), so your argument doesn't hold true
Good afternoon Ivan. Despite your assumptions, please understand that there is no way that I was insinuating that Red Fox is Rob. Please accept my sincere apologies if anything I penned suggested that it was. As discussed in PMs with you, I have the greatest of respect for Rob, and indeed for Clarky, both of whom I'd like to meet one day. Not sure where they live though. Certainly not Geelong.
And as for your comment about the driver whose "reputation when driving on the Eastern Seaboard" is concerned, previously I have pointed out that that person was not me. Unless you have evidence to the contrary could I ask you to refrain from making such comments? If you can name the model of truck I drove that would be a start, but I am unaware of any such "reputation". When driving I worked crazy hours, and certainly did not have time to socialise at truck stops and the like.
Finally, could I point out that although some home truths can cause annoyance to people who ask questions, when it comes to weights there is no room for opinion. Your weights are right, or they're wrong. Not negotiable. Many people who ask questions about weights clearly suspect that their weights are wrong, but post in the hope that somebody will give them the reassurance that they desperately seek. When I point out the facts, and provide figures to support my advice, I immediately become the villain.
There is nothing that I have ever posted that I cannot prove to be true. All I ask is "Please don't shoot the messenger".
I trust that this note clears things up for you? Have a great day. Cheers
No paragraphs.
Just another excuse. Perhaps just more blatant BS?
Oops, suddenly we have paragraphs. But isn't that impossible?
Or is someone playing games......again. Just ask yourself why.
What was it he said again? "but my iPad won't play the game! "
Mmmmm.......?
Wow, that's strange. His ipad seemed to work fine here.
As I stated earlier.
"Not adding in spaces and paragraphs where they should be is an old trick.
It makes it harder to select what he types and therefore identify where he is bull ****ting. It's clear he is doing his best to cause arguments and big note himself. Simply put a trouble maker."
Exposed.
Clearly there is no accountability here.
Yobar rather than posting the often same BIG photos , just make your posts easier to read
This is what the response is once the trickster and charlatan has been exposed for what he is.
youtu.be/l0q7MLPo-u8
You are right....this is not a HSC Exam - forget the "grammar pedantics"
A WDH cannot alter Ball Weight but it can adjust Axle Weights (that is its purpose)..
A Land Cruiser 200 Series is a comfortable,powerful,durable vehicle but its Legal Combined Load Carrying/Towing Capacity is quite a margin less than many people "imagine" or expect ......Buyer beware.
-- Edited by Brenda and Alan on Monday 6th of February 2023 09:48:44 PM
It's about a charlatan conning members. It seems that some are happy being misled.
Misled ??
Some people find it hard to face the facts
My thoughts exactly shakey55.