I like the mixed messages I am seeing and hearing.
Cricket team leader objects to energy company sponsorship due to climate impact. No criticism of sponsor with major human rights issues for man of the match awards at T20 World Cup.
Netball team object to Han**** sponsorship due to Fathers comments re Indigenous people from 50 or 60 years ago, but still happy to wear uniform with major energy company sponsorship.
That said, I trust when money is tighter, and payments may drop, the sports people involved will remember that having principles, and not being hypocritical, may have a real cost.
Mike Harding said
09:32 AM Oct 20, 2022
TheHeaths wrote:
due to Fathers comments re Indigenous people from 50 or 60 years ago
There comes a point where incidents from the past should be left in the past and I believe 50+ years covers most things.
We cannot and should not live in the past.
DMaxer said
10:07 AM Oct 20, 2022
Wasn't it George Santayana who said "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". Mike?
Are We Lost said
11:29 AM Oct 20, 2022
DMaxer makes a good point, although perhaps not his intention. It's important that the sins of the past are not erased from history. For example, movements that wish to remove statues of historical figures who did things in the past that we are not proud of today aim to do exactly that.
dorian said
12:10 PM Oct 20, 2022
Judging from the responses in this thread, I have no doubt that, had the young woman accepted the sponsorship money without question, she would have been accused of placing money above principle. It's a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
DMaxer said
01:03 PM Oct 20, 2022
I agree with you Dorian. I remember in younger days I was fortunate to live overseas for several years and had several German friends. One of the many things I have admired about the German people of my vintage was the fact that they faced up to their history of genocide and cruelty that was inflicted on other races. Even after the Allies had finished with the Nuremberg trials, the German people continued on with thousands of prosecutions of former Nazi personnel and their supporters. Not only have they built memorials to the millions who were persecuted they have maintained former concentration camps as a reminder to the world as to how one of the leading democracies of Europe could turn into a dictatorship in just a few short years.
I think Australia will never reach its full potential until we start to recognize the injustices done to the people that were here prior to 1788. We don't need to take personal responsibility because it wasn't us, but it did occur. I see the War Memorial in Canberra is preparing a large section to remember what they called the "Frontier Wars" in Australia. Perhaps this will be the starting point for a proper recognition as to our history.
I realise it is a lost cause on certain people and that they are incapable of recognizing our history beyond Don Bradman and Phar Lap and that any suggestion of ill treatment is a personal slur that has to be put down. I think the younger generation are quite capable of accepting what has happened and as a result Australia will be an even greater country.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 20th of October 2022 01:05:21 PM
Mike Harding said
01:09 PM Oct 20, 2022
Are We Lost wrote:
It's important that the sins of the past are not erased from history.
Dmaxer said:
Wasn't it George Santayana who said "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
----
I'm not suggesting erasing them from the history books but rather stating that it is wrong and unhealthy to continually dwell upon them.
Do you suggest that every culture which has at any point in history been wronged by another culture should carry that memory in their daily lives? I would have thought we had all seen enough of that in the Middle East, Ireland, Cyprus, Turkey, China, Korea and I haven't even mentioned what those bloody Vikings did to my great, great (and another 14 greats) grandmother, bastards!
How long do you want to go on hating for?
DMaxer said
01:58 PM Oct 20, 2022
It is not a matter of hating, it is a matter of acknowledging. Continual denial and obfuscation only serves to build more resentment. The anger felt by some people will only get worse and drag us down as a country.
Acknowledge and then reconciliation is possible.
rgren2 said
02:05 PM Oct 20, 2022
DMaxer wrote:
It is not a matter of hating, it is a matter of acknowledging. Continual denial and obfuscation only serves to build more resentment. The anger felt by some people will only get worse and drag us down as a country. Acknowledge and then reconciliation is possible.
That is a two way street.
dorian said
02:15 PM Oct 20, 2022
DMaxer wrote:
It is not a matter of hating, it is a matter of acknowledging. Continual denial and obfuscation only serves to build more resentment. The anger felt by some people will only get worse and drag us down as a country. Acknowledge and then reconciliation is possible.
When I lived in South Korea 40 years ago, I witnessed the ongoing hatred for the Japanese amongst the older generation. I saw the same hatred in China during that same time. To this day the Japanese have shown no genuine remorse, and the Korean "comfort women" and the Nanking massacre remain two of their many shameful legacies. The Germans have paid restitution many times over, and they have done everything they possibly can to assuage their awful history.
We may think, what's the big deal, let bygones be bygones, but today the Koreans are firing rockets at Japan, and the Chinese are waking up from a century of Western racism and exploitation.
An aboriginal friend tells me that Rudd's apology was deeply felt by many indigenous people -- it's just too bad that "sorry" was much too hard for Howard to say.
Rob Driver said
02:35 PM Oct 20, 2022
dorian wrote:
DMaxer wrote:
It is not a matter of hating, it is a matter of acknowledging. Continual denial and obfuscation only serves to build more resentment. The anger felt by some people will only get worse and drag us down as a country. Acknowledge and then reconciliation is possible.
When I lived in South Korea 40 years ago, I witnessed the ongoing hatred for the Japanese amongst the older generation. I saw the same hatred in China during that same time. To this day the Japanese have shown no genuine remorse, and the Korean "comfort women" and the Nanking massacre remain two of their many shameful legacies. The Germans have paid restitution many times over, and they have done everything they possibly can to assuage their awful history.
We may think, what's the big deal, let bygones be bygones, but today the Koreans are firing rockets at Japan, and the Chinese are waking up from a century of Western racism and exploitation.
An aboriginal friend tells me that Rudd's apology was deeply felt by many indigenous people -- it's just too bad that "sorry" was much too hard for Howard to say.
There is no doubt about you dorian
But carry on, it is quite OK (apparently) to turn yet another topic on here into a political debate.
Now there may be some that say that Howard wasnt that stupid and that Rudd did it for political gain. He is no more sorry than his career as a commentator permits. Or are we going to find out that Rudd is indigenous.
Rudds apology was obviously transparent and like the current leader he was just a puppet to red raggers behind him.
DMaxer said
02:42 PM Oct 20, 2022
Werent you running off to the teacher and reporting me for making political comment just the other day Rob.?
How did it go? Did she pat you on the head and tell you that you were a good lad?
Rob Driver said
02:49 PM Oct 20, 2022
DMaxer wrote:
Werent you running off to the teacher and reporting me for making political comment just the other day Rob.? How did it go? Did she pat you on the head and tell you that you were a good lad?
You just cant help yourself can you DMaxer
No DMaxer as a matter of fact she didnt even answer me but she did lock the topic.
Even if she did comment to me in private I would never post her comments out here in the public section as that would be extremely disrespectful and against all the rules of responses on public forums.
It is taboo to quote a moderator from a private message or private email, so DMaxer, dont ask again.
This doesnt change what many of us have observed to be a double standard.
Ivan 01 said
03:44 PM Oct 20, 2022
DMaxer wrote:
Werent you running off to the teacher and reporting me for making political comment just the other day Rob.? How did it go? Did she pat you on the head and tell you that you were a good lad?
The way I can see it is that it wasnt a comment you made but you started an entirely new topic with a political agenda
In my view that is far worse than a flippant comment made in a post.
Rules are rules
You are lucky.
Cuppa said
04:03 PM Oct 20, 2022
"it is wrong and unhealthy to continually dwell upon them" (history & problems).
This is a common point to see or hear being made, but I think it misses the point & fails to understand.
I wish to be clear that I am not saying this personally to any individual.
I'm not sure anything I write is likely to change how things are seen by others, because it feels like threads like this are often conducted in different 'languages' with points not understood & 'sides' ending up being taken. I am however game to try to find a way to try to cut across this & to say why I think it important that rather than dwelling (which implies lack of movement) that finding room for the pain of others is an essential means of moving forward.
I will draw a similarity to the process of therapy in a mental health context.
I worked as a family therapist for many years. It was absolutely obvious that 'problems' always had a history, & that it was a useful premise to view folk as managing the best they could but in some way or another they were finding themselves 'stuck'. Often problems were intergenerational. A lot of truth in "We become our own parents". It is often human nature to continue trying what we know even when it doesn't work. In order to move forward an understanding of the problem's history needed to be developed & the role of the therapist was essentially to facilitate this & in various ways help to find a way past the sticking point.
It was often useful to determine who's the problem was.
In the situation under discussion here there are two views as to who owns the problem - 'them' or 'us' & by 'us' I mean all of us together. Depending upon which view one takes determines which 'language' one speaks.
I never once said to a client 'just get over it' because it would not have worked. It is precisely that which would have resulted on the problem continuing - thereby 'dwelling on it' but not changing a thing.
Problems frequently don't just 'go away', they remain, often impacting generation after generation until the time comes where the opportunity & courage required for understanding is taken. It is never easy but it is effective. Anything else is just heads in the sand.
It is also common for many reasons for the systems we exist in - families, community etc to strive to maintain the status quo & to resist change, but it is when fear of difference is confronted that real change for the better can become possible.
We don't have, & never have had an 'Aboriginal problem'. That is a longstanding 'construction' which will never be helpful in changing a thing, leaving us with an unhealthy status quo which much of the rest of the world views as very 'adolescent' in nature.
I expect we could all agree that the situation in Australia needs to be different & that it has continued for many generations, even if we don't agree what that situation is. It affects us all. I also know that one of the major impediments to hearing & understanding is 'blame'. It won't be easy for anyone but without the pain of a truth sharing process we (collectively) will remain stuck as a nation.
I really don't wish to fall into the trap of another online argument, so am posting this only in the hope that it may assist in being a pebble thrown into the water to create ripples which may spread. If it doesn't I'll view that as an opportunity lost, but know that I spoke what I think in good faith.
I'm not having a go at anyone. Please just accept this post as it is offered - a perspective - my perspective. If you've read it, you cannot 'unread it'. If it offends I apologise, that is the last thing on my mind. If it fails to change anything you think or believe, but helps you to understand why others may think differently then it will have achieved at least that. If you don't have a clue what I'm going on about then I haven't found a common 'language'.
I'm sure some will consider me 'woke' (or some other belittling or abusive term), but please keep it to yourself, & resist resorting to personal abuse or name calling. And for those who in the past have tried to suggest that my posting views different to yours is nothing more than an attempt to 'stir things up' I remind you that this is a forum, a place of discussion & debate. How tedious would it be if we were all alike.
regards
Cuppa
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 04:08:28 PM
KevinJ said
04:37 PM Oct 20, 2022
Cuppa wrote:
"it is wrong and unhealthy to continually dwell upon them" (history & problems).
This is a common point to see or hear being made, but I think it misses the point & fails to understand.
I wish to be clear that I am not saying this personally to any individual.
I'm not sure anything I write is likely to change how things are seen by others, because it feels like threads like this are often conducted in different 'languages' with points not understood & 'sides' ending up being taken. I am however game to try to find a way to try to cut across this & to say why I think it important that rather than dwelling (which implies lack of movement) that finding room for the pain of others is an essential means of moving forward.
I will draw a similarity to the process of therapy in a mental health context.
I worked as a family therapist for many years. It was absolutely obvious that 'problems' always had a history, & that it was a useful premise to view folk as managing the best they could but in some way or another they were finding themselves 'stuck'. Often problems were intergenerational. A lot of truth in "We become our own parents". It is often human nature to continue trying what we know even when it doesn't work. In order to move forward an understanding of the problem's history needed to be developed & the role of the therapist was essentially to facilitate this & in various ways help to find a way past the sticking point.
It was often useful to determine who's the problem was.
In the situation under discussion here there are two views as to who owns the problem - 'them' or 'us' & by 'us' I mean all of us together. Depending upon which view one takes determines which 'language' one speaks.
I never once said to a client 'just get over it' because it would not have worked. It is precisely that which would have resulted on the problem continuing - thereby 'dwelling on it' but not changing a thing.
Problems frequently don't just 'go away', they remain, often impacting generation after generation until the time comes where the opportunity & courage required for understanding is taken. It is never easy but it is effective. Anything else is just heads in the sand.
It is also common for many reasons for the systems we exist in - families, community etc to strive to maintain the status quo & to resist change, but it is when fear of difference is confronted that real change for the better can become possible.
We don't have, & never have had an 'Aboriginal problem'. That is a longstanding 'construction' which will never be helpful in changing a thing, leaving us with an unhealthy status quo which much of the rest of the world views as very 'adolescent' in nature.
I expect we could all agree that the situation in Australia needs to be different & that it has continued for many generations, even if we don't agree what that situation is. It affects us all. I also know that one of the major impediments to hearing & understanding is 'blame'. It won't be easy for anyone but without the pain of a truth sharing process we (collectively) will remain stuck as a nation.
I really don't wish to fall into the trap of another online argument, so am posting this only in the hope that it may assist in being a pebble thrown into the water to create ripples which may spread. If it doesn't I'll view that as an opportunity lost, but know that I spoke what I think in good faith.
I'm not having a go at anyone. Please just accept this post as it is offered - a perspective - my perspective. If you've read it, you cannot 'unread it'. If it offends I apologise, that is the last thing on my mind. If it fails to change anything you think or believe, but helps you to understand why others may think differently then it will have achieved at least that. If you don't have a clue what I'm going on about then I haven't found a common 'language'.
I'm sure some will consider me 'woke' (or some other belittling or abusive term), but please keep it to yourself, & resist resorting to personal abuse or name calling. And for those who in the past have tried to suggest that my posting views different to yours is nothing more than an attempt to 'stir things up' I remind you that this is a forum, a place of discussion & debate. How tedious would it be if we were all alike.
regards
Cuppa
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 04:08:28 PM
Well spoken Cuppa
Rob Driver said
06:09 PM Oct 20, 2022
Cuppa,
This is the first post by Gundog.
It statred with the Diamonds Netballers pushing back at Gina Rhienharts sponsorship of Netball Australia for woke agenda.
Now we have Pat Cummins come out and appling pressure to Cricket Australia over Alinta Energy's sponsorship because of climate change.
The answer is simple just like the Manly players who objected to the woke rainbow pride jumper they said no, stood down from playing, its simple if you dont like the sponsor dont play.
Oh by the way NA is in debt to the tune of 7 million dollars, what happens if Gina pulls her sponsorship.... you precious people going to run around and run chook raffles to keep your elite sport status, or do you expect the government to bail NA out.
As you may note this post can not be much further than what you and some others feel you need to discuss.
Your post is well spoken as was said above but it has left some of us wondering just what is its purpose in this topic. You may have been better informed if you read and commented on the topic and not composed a post, which although good, is only supporting your generalisation of thoughts regarding reconciliation.
I wont go into a reply to the content of your post as really you have covered everything from all angles and it certainly very cleverly offers a two bob each way opinion but unfortunately it is not on topic.
It certainly helps those members above who have turned this topic from one of sponsoring professional sport to one of how to continue this inequality argument even after 250 years.
Do I have the feeling that this is one of those De Ja Vue situations where some of us may get a strong feeling that this has happened before.
Cuppa said
07:16 PM Oct 20, 2022
Rob, I was aware that the topic had 'evolved' & I followed on from that. Guilty as charged.
However when looking deeper into Gundog's headline post & considering the reasons why the netballers have made their statement, it is clear that the story behind the story goes to the heart of the matter, & is far more important than the simple rejection of a sponsorship, so I felt OK about posting as I did.
It was not surprising (to me) that subsequent posts to the OP address attitudes about the reasons aboriginals might feel as they do, presumably because others, like me, felt that this was the central issue, the reason for the refusal, & thus very much on topic. I'm sure the netballers would like the money but I respect them for standing true to their values & having the guts to raise issues which some would like to go away. I think we will see more & more of this 'issue raising' until such time as it can no longer be ignored. I for one am happy to lend my support to this.
Perhaps I should copy my post & wait for another 'aboriginal' topic labelled as an aboriginal topic to come up again, as I sure it inevitably will.
What do you think?
regards
Cuppa
Rob Driver said
08:52 PM Oct 20, 2022
My thoughts are with regard to the Netball sponsorship and Ginas sponsorship is that the reason for refusing that sponsorship for reasons stated is wearing very thin with most Australians. You and I can beat each other up over it but at sometime the simple fact is that all this *you did this* and *you didnt do that* needs to be put in the past and we all need to let it go and get on with life.
I have some indigenous friends and they cringe at some of the things that are shown and reported in the media. My thoughts with regard to reconciliation is that Australia has given enough and every Australian has the opportunity to be educated, employed and supported through social security. I said Every Australian.
While the indigenous are continually bombarded by some continuing with how white Australians of generally English heritage need to pay or need to say sorry or for whatever other reason that may pop into there narrow minds then nothing will ever change.
This race divide in this country is ridiculous. Just look at the flags we have in our own parliament.
The support given to the indigenous is more than generous. There are towns where taxis are employed to take the children to school. There exists Gidja clubs that offer free government paid support and meals before and after school as well as Xmas and birthday presents. There is Abstudy and as you know I could go on and on how good that is in providing good training. There are dedicated medical services to be used only by the indigenous. There is public housing available to the indigenous which is not available to others. There is free technical college courses available to the indigenous. None of the services I have mentioned are freely available to (dare I say it) whites.
Yet with all of this a netball team is refusing a sponsorship on a principle. Really, this principle can never be put right no matter how many sorrys and how much support we (meaning all the other taxpayers in Australia) can offer.
To make this even worse we have members of parliament that are using this division of support for political gain.
A bag of money will always buy a vote and will make the gullible feel warm and fuzzy inside but will it fix the problem. No it wont. It wont because no matter what we collectively do the effort is being continually undermined by this group that are continually provoking a minority group into more antagonism.
The opportunities exist for all to advance themselves in this country. Some take that advantage and other dont and those that dont, do not have to because they know that there will be another bag of money forthcoming as soon as someone says they have been mistreated.
To add to this we now have a system whereby when filling out any form in this country you are asked if you identify with being Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and if you say yes then you open up an entire range of benefits that arent available to other Australians.
The very guy you had removed from this forum is approximately the same caste percentage as the TV star he made a comment about. I know for a fact that Clarky thought it sickening that someone in the public eye had to make himself dark with make up. Clarky is a guy who took advantage and used what was offered to him with education and employment. He didnt sit there with a thirst for alcohol or drugs and wait until the next bag of money came his way.
Yes he copped crap at school and from some during his adulthood due to his heritage but he used to laugh and say I cant help it what colour my parents were. His dad was a Scotsman who worked most of his life on stations and in the bush and his mum was Aboriginal. His sister is a successful nurse now retired and Clarky himself has two beautiful children and a lovely white Aussie wife. You wont find a better bloke than Clarky and if you were in trouble he would be the first to stop and help you.
So back to the sponsorship. Gina will probably keep her money and there will be members and supporters of the netball team that can not believe that a team in financial trouble would refuse the sponsorship.
Well I now need to ask a question. Will the daughters of the current players still hold this animosity. Will the grandchildren and the great grandchildren feel the same.
Cuppa I will give you the answer and unfortunately it *yes* because there will always be groups wanting to create this antagonism because they can and there will always be some parliamentarian or entire party that will gain support by offering the support to the team with a bag of money.
We have indigenous parliamentarians now but apparently there is a referendum being concocted to introduce indigenous representatives. From my personal observations the indigenous folk I know are happy that there are indigenous members in our parliament and they feel they dont need more spokespeople.
It wont change because it cant as no one will move on.
This is from both sides Cuppa as with every comment blaming me for their plight there will be a me trying to explain that I had no control over what happened 250 years ago.
Maybe some of those antagonists should stop and think how different things may have been if Australia was settled by another country. Maybe some might contemplate how this division is dragging our country down and how easy it would be for an eastern country to gain indigenous support and take our country through invasion.
And with that you will say *Dont be stupid Rob*
And so we will start again. This merry go round will never end because it will always be the whiteys fault.
Now we have ruined this topic completely I would hand it back to you to tell us all what needs to be done that will fix this.
Not pie in the sky dreams and wishes but what we can do physically and mentally to fix this.
In my position I dont have a problem as I know it wasnt me that performed atrocities 200 years ago. I have indigenous and non indigenous friends and we all get on fine as friends and Aussies and I know that governments have genuinely tried to address this problem since I was old enough to vote so what should both sides that are in disagreement do from here on.???
Cuppa said
10:25 PM Oct 20, 2022
"You and I can beat each other up over it"
The notion of battle is not for me Rob, those are your words. I neither wish to beat anyone up, nor to be beaten up. You & I are little more than names to each other. We have differing views but if we had met in different circumstances I expect we could have enjoyed a yarn & a couple of beers around a campfire together.
I acknowledge your anger blaming me for your friend being excluded from the forum. But I think your anger is misplaced The only reason he was was excluded was because his behaviour was out of order. His behaviour is what got him excluded. Loyalty is one thing but battling to suggest that he was excluded because of me is not one which is sustainable, I knew him less than I know you.
We clearly have very different world views, different languages if you like. I don't see the world as you do & don't agree with a lot of what you have posted above. The facts you cite given context would look very different to the facts which suit your world view but I don't I have the energy to bash my head around that particular fairground ride.
I think if you re-read my post a few more times you may hopefully see that whilst not suggesting solutions to a seemingly intractable problem that I am suggesting a process. For that process to begin & to stand a chance of being successful it requires quite the opposite of a fight, it requires all participants to want a just & equitable outcome, a win for all. Not one mob telling another mob what they should or shouldn't do, have or not have.
Getting to the starting line is the hardest part as it means taking a path without the usual signposts. That requires trust.
Your prediction of a merry go round which will never end is what we have seen for generations & is what I call 'being stuck' We only know what we know, & because we know no different we continue to do what we can & get frustrated & angry because it doesn't work. That's where the blaming starts. That's what fuels the Merry go round's motor.
I believe the tide is turning, that more & more glimpses of life off the Merry go round are becoming available, opportunities to do something different, & that we are moving closer to a situation where those who remain stuck will become an increasing minority & who's demands & finger pointing will have less & less influence. For those folk there will be an inevitable sense of loss, & with that fear of what will happen. I said it won't be easy but I also maintain that it will be worthwhile & that if we can engage in the process we will get through it, & together get off the bloody roundabout.
At least that is my hope. I might be accused of wishful thinking, of lacking a realistic outlook by some, but what is certain is that I know remaining stuck on that merry go round is certainly not my goal any more than trying to win a fight at another's expense.
regards
Cuppa
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 10:34:18 PM
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 10:37:54 PM
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 10:42:32 PM
rgren2 said
11:06 PM Oct 20, 2022
Dont worry about sports people, there are others too.
Will the daughters of the current players still hold this animosity. Will the grandchildren and the great grandchildren feel the same.
Cuppa I will give you the answer and unfortunately it *yes*"
Not everyone perpetuates the crimes of their parents. That's a glass half empty statement if ever I heard one.
Cuppa said
10:32 AM Oct 21, 2022
KevinJ wrote:
Not everyone perpetuates the crimes of their parents. That's a glass half empty statement if ever I heard one.
Hi Kevin,
I think the label of 'animosity' attributed to the current players choosing not to accept sponsorship is far from accurate.
Animosity is defined as 'Extreme hostility' which I consider an accurate description of the statements made publicly by Lang Han**** in 1984 when he proposed the solution to the 'aboriginal problem' would be to poison their water.
Refusing sponsorship from Lang Han****'s daughter in the circumstances displays hurt that she has never acknowledged & is still felt. Expressing one's hurt is not the same as expressing extreme hostility, far from it.
We should all be careful about the language we use as words can be very powerful & negative implications attributed by choice of words can be absorbed & accepted without realising if we are not careful regardless of whether they are used carelessly or by design.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 21st of October 2022 10:33:41 AM
bilbo said
02:51 PM Oct 21, 2022
Your 100% correct Rob. The starting point in EVERY case are DOLLARS......the reason that people give in every case is a smokescreen. eg in this case it has zero to do with what Lang Han**** said or what the netballer thinks!
cheers Bilbo
Cuppa said
03:37 PM Oct 21, 2022
bilbo wrote:
The starting point in EVERY case are DOLLARS......the reason that people give in every case is a smokescreen. eg in this case it has zero to do with what Lang Han**** said or what the netballer thinks!
cheers Bilbo
I can't follow your logic Bilbo. Why do you think the netballers have said no thanks to the money?
Surely if money were the most important thing the netballers would have just said thank you very much & taken it. But that's not what they've done.
What therefore would lead you to believe that the netballers are anything but sincere in the reasons they have given?
Sponsorship is almost always about benefiting the sponsor, rarely is it purely philanthropic. Does that have something to do with what you are saying?
bilbo said
12:26 PM Oct 22, 2022
Who said "no" to money ("if" anyone did??)....the individual OR the netballers??.....if it was the former they need some serious "retraining".....if it was the later they dont understand "the game"...... like you............cheers Bilbo
rgren2 said
01:33 PM Oct 22, 2022
Gina has rescinded the offer. No money for the Diamonds. Go Woke, go broke.
Ivan 01 said
02:06 PM Oct 22, 2022
I wonder how long before we have to bow to the king of Wokes on this forum.
From my observation so far, our resident self appointed King of Wokes never answers a question with any answer with fact but his response always involves the redefining the words of others to satisfy his dominance. He comes out as snowy white if I may say that on here and all others not so.
Now this is reminding me of others who have chosen to use this forum as a platform for their misguided agenda. They never answer a question with fact. I wonder why?
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Saturday 22nd of October 2022 02:11:05 PM
Mike Harding said
02:07 PM Oct 22, 2022
From somewhere or other I recall the wise advice of "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."
Cricket team leader objects to energy company sponsorship due to climate impact. No criticism of sponsor with major human rights issues for man of the match awards at T20 World Cup.
Netball team object to Han**** sponsorship due to Fathers comments re Indigenous people from 50 or 60 years ago, but still happy to wear uniform with major energy company sponsorship.
That said, I trust when money is tighter, and payments may drop, the sports people involved will remember that having principles, and not being hypocritical, may have a real cost.
There comes a point where incidents from the past should be left in the past and I believe 50+ years covers most things.
We cannot and should not live in the past.
Wasn't it George Santayana who said "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". Mike?
I agree with you Dorian. I remember in younger days I was fortunate to live overseas for several years and had several German friends. One of the many things I have admired about the German people of my vintage was the fact that they faced up to their history of genocide and cruelty that was inflicted on other races. Even after the Allies had finished with the Nuremberg trials, the German people continued on with thousands of prosecutions of former Nazi personnel and their supporters. Not only have they built memorials to the millions who were persecuted they have maintained former concentration camps as a reminder to the world as to how one of the leading democracies of Europe could turn into a dictatorship in just a few short years.
I think Australia will never reach its full potential until we start to recognize the injustices done to the people that were here prior to 1788. We don't need to take personal responsibility because it wasn't us, but it did occur. I see the War Memorial in Canberra is preparing a large section to remember what they called the "Frontier Wars" in Australia. Perhaps this will be the starting point for a proper recognition as to our history.
I realise it is a lost cause on certain people and that they are incapable of recognizing our history beyond Don Bradman and Phar Lap and that any suggestion of ill treatment is a personal slur that has to be put down. I think the younger generation are quite capable of accepting what has happened and as a result Australia will be an even greater country.
-- Edited by DMaxer on Thursday 20th of October 2022 01:05:21 PM
Dmaxer said:
Wasn't it George Santayana who said "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
----
That is a two way street.
When I lived in South Korea 40 years ago, I witnessed the ongoing hatred for the Japanese amongst the older generation. I saw the same hatred in China during that same time. To this day the Japanese have shown no genuine remorse, and the Korean "comfort women" and the Nanking massacre remain two of their many shameful legacies. The Germans have paid restitution many times over, and they have done everything they possibly can to assuage their awful history.
We may think, what's the big deal, let bygones be bygones, but today the Koreans are firing rockets at Japan, and the Chinese are waking up from a century of Western racism and exploitation.
An aboriginal friend tells me that Rudd's apology was deeply felt by many indigenous people -- it's just too bad that "sorry" was much too hard for Howard to say.
There is no doubt about you dorian
But carry on, it is quite OK (apparently) to turn yet another topic on here into a political debate.
Now there may be some that say that Howard wasnt that stupid and that Rudd did it for political gain.
He is no more sorry than his career as a commentator permits. Or are we going to find out that Rudd is indigenous.
Rudds apology was obviously transparent and like the current leader he was just a puppet to red raggers behind him.
You just cant help yourself can you DMaxer
No DMaxer as a matter of fact she didnt even answer me but she did lock the topic.
Even if she did comment to me in private I would never post her comments out here in the public section as that would be extremely disrespectful and against all the rules of responses on public forums.
It is taboo to quote a moderator from a private message or private email, so DMaxer, dont ask again.
This doesnt change what many of us have observed to be a double standard.
The way I can see it is that it wasnt a comment you made but you started an entirely new topic with a political agenda
In my view that is far worse than a flippant comment made in a post.
Rules are rules
You are lucky.
This is a common point to see or hear being made, but I think it misses the point & fails to understand.
I wish to be clear that I am not saying this personally to any individual.
I'm not sure anything I write is likely to change how things are seen by others, because it feels like threads like this are often conducted in different 'languages' with points not understood & 'sides' ending up being taken. I am however game to try to find a way to try to cut across this & to say why I think it important that rather than dwelling (which implies lack of movement) that finding room for the pain of others is an essential means of moving forward.
I will draw a similarity to the process of therapy in a mental health context.
I worked as a family therapist for many years. It was absolutely obvious that 'problems' always had a history, & that it was a useful premise to view folk as managing the best they could but in some way or another they were finding themselves 'stuck'. Often problems were intergenerational. A lot of truth in "We become our own parents". It is often human nature to continue trying what we know even when it doesn't work. In order to move forward an understanding of the problem's history needed to be developed & the role of the therapist was essentially to facilitate this & in various ways help to find a way past the sticking point.
It was often useful to determine who's the problem was.
In the situation under discussion here there are two views as to who owns the problem - 'them' or 'us' & by 'us' I mean all of us together. Depending upon which view one takes determines which 'language' one speaks.
I never once said to a client 'just get over it' because it would not have worked. It is precisely that which would have resulted on the problem continuing - thereby 'dwelling on it' but not changing a thing.
Problems frequently don't just 'go away', they remain, often impacting generation after generation until the time comes where the opportunity & courage required for understanding is taken. It is never easy but it is effective. Anything else is just heads in the sand.
It is also common for many reasons for the systems we exist in - families, community etc to strive to maintain the status quo & to resist change, but it is when fear of difference is confronted that real change for the better can become possible.
We don't have, & never have had an 'Aboriginal problem'. That is a longstanding 'construction' which will never be helpful in changing a thing, leaving us with an unhealthy status quo which much of the rest of the world views as very 'adolescent' in nature.
I expect we could all agree that the situation in Australia needs to be different & that it has continued for many generations, even if we don't agree what that situation is. It affects us all. I also know that one of the major impediments to hearing & understanding is 'blame'. It won't be easy for anyone but without the pain of a truth sharing process we (collectively) will remain stuck as a nation.
I really don't wish to fall into the trap of another online argument, so am posting this only in the hope that it may assist in being a pebble thrown into the water to create ripples which may spread. If it doesn't I'll view that as an opportunity lost, but know that I spoke what I think in good faith.
I'm not having a go at anyone. Please just accept this post as it is offered - a perspective - my perspective. If you've read it, you cannot 'unread it'. If it offends I apologise, that is the last thing on my mind. If it fails to change anything you think or believe, but helps you to understand why others may think differently then it will have achieved at least that. If you don't have a clue what I'm going on about then I haven't found a common 'language'.
I'm sure some will consider me 'woke' (or some other belittling or abusive term), but please keep it to yourself, & resist resorting to personal abuse or name calling. And for those who in the past have tried to suggest that my posting views different to yours is nothing more than an attempt to 'stir things up' I remind you that this is a forum, a place of discussion & debate. How tedious would it be if we were all alike.
regards
Cuppa
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 04:08:28 PM
Well spoken Cuppa
Cuppa,
This is the first post by Gundog.
It statred with the Diamonds Netballers pushing back at Gina Rhienharts sponsorship of Netball Australia for woke agenda.
Now we have Pat Cummins come out and appling pressure to Cricket Australia over Alinta Energy's sponsorship because of climate change.
The answer is simple just like the Manly players who objected to the woke rainbow pride jumper they said no, stood down from playing, its simple if you dont like the sponsor dont play.
Oh by the way NA is in debt to the tune of 7 million dollars, what happens if Gina pulls her sponsorship.... you precious people going to run around and run chook raffles to keep your elite sport status, or do you expect the government to bail NA out.
As you may note this post can not be much further than what you and some others feel you need to discuss.
Your post is well spoken as was said above but it has left some of us wondering just what is its purpose in this topic.
You may have been better informed if you read and commented on the topic and not composed a post, which although good, is only supporting your generalisation of thoughts regarding reconciliation.
I wont go into a reply to the content of your post as really you have covered everything from all angles and it certainly very cleverly offers a two bob each way opinion but unfortunately it is not on topic.
It certainly helps those members above who have turned this topic from one of sponsoring professional sport to one of how to continue this inequality argument even after 250 years.
Do I have the feeling that this is one of those De Ja Vue situations where some of us may get a strong feeling that this has happened before.
However when looking deeper into Gundog's headline post & considering the reasons why the netballers have made their statement, it is clear that the story behind the story goes to the heart of the matter, & is far more important than the simple rejection of a sponsorship, so I felt OK about posting as I did.
It was not surprising (to me) that subsequent posts to the OP address attitudes about the reasons aboriginals might feel as they do, presumably because others, like me, felt that this was the central issue, the reason for the refusal, & thus very much on topic. I'm sure the netballers would like the money but I respect them for standing true to their values & having the guts to raise issues which some would like to go away. I think we will see more & more of this 'issue raising' until such time as it can no longer be ignored. I for one am happy to lend my support to this.
Perhaps I should copy my post & wait for another 'aboriginal' topic labelled as an aboriginal topic to come up again, as I sure it inevitably will.
What do you think?
regards
Cuppa
My thoughts are with regard to the Netball sponsorship and Ginas sponsorship is that the reason for refusing that sponsorship for reasons stated is wearing very thin with most Australians.
You and I can beat each other up over it but at sometime the simple fact is that all this *you did this* and *you didnt do that* needs to be put in the past and we all need to let it go and get on with life.
I have some indigenous friends and they cringe at some of the things that are shown and reported in the media.
My thoughts with regard to reconciliation is that Australia has given enough and every Australian has the opportunity to be educated, employed and supported through social security. I said Every Australian.
While the indigenous are continually bombarded by some continuing with how white Australians of generally English heritage need to pay or need to say sorry or for whatever other reason that may pop into there narrow minds then nothing will ever change.
This race divide in this country is ridiculous. Just look at the flags we have in our own parliament.
The support given to the indigenous is more than generous. There are towns where taxis are employed to take the children to school.
There exists Gidja clubs that offer free government paid support and meals before and after school as well as Xmas and birthday presents.
There is Abstudy and as you know I could go on and on how good that is in providing good training.
There are dedicated medical services to be used only by the indigenous.
There is public housing available to the indigenous which is not available to others.
There is free technical college courses available to the indigenous.
None of the services I have mentioned are freely available to (dare I say it) whites.
Yet with all of this a netball team is refusing a sponsorship on a principle. Really, this principle can never be put right no matter how many sorrys and how much support we (meaning all the other taxpayers in Australia) can offer.
To make this even worse we have members of parliament that are using this division of support for political gain.
A bag of money will always buy a vote and will make the gullible feel warm and fuzzy inside but will it fix the problem. No it wont.
It wont because no matter what we collectively do the effort is being continually undermined by this group that are continually provoking a minority group into more antagonism.
The opportunities exist for all to advance themselves in this country. Some take that advantage and other dont and those that dont, do not have to because they know that there will be another bag of money forthcoming as soon as someone says they have been mistreated.
To add to this we now have a system whereby when filling out any form in this country you are asked if you identify with being Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and if you say yes then you open up an entire range of benefits that arent available to other Australians.
The very guy you had removed from this forum is approximately the same caste percentage as the TV star he made a comment about.
I know for a fact that Clarky thought it sickening that someone in the public eye had to make himself dark with make up.
Clarky is a guy who took advantage and used what was offered to him with education and employment. He didnt sit there with a thirst for alcohol or drugs and wait until the next bag of money came his way.
Yes he copped crap at school and from some during his adulthood due to his heritage but he used to laugh and say I cant help it what colour my parents were.
His dad was a Scotsman who worked most of his life on stations and in the bush and his mum was Aboriginal. His sister is a successful nurse now retired and Clarky himself has two beautiful children and a lovely white Aussie wife.
You wont find a better bloke than Clarky and if you were in trouble he would be the first to stop and help you.
So back to the sponsorship.
Gina will probably keep her money and there will be members and supporters of the netball team that can not believe that a team in financial trouble would refuse the sponsorship.
Well I now need to ask a question.
Will the daughters of the current players still hold this animosity. Will the grandchildren and the great grandchildren feel the same.
Cuppa I will give you the answer and unfortunately it *yes* because there will always be groups wanting to create this antagonism because they can and there will always be some parliamentarian or entire party that will gain support by offering the support to the team with a bag of money.
We have indigenous parliamentarians now but apparently there is a referendum being concocted to introduce indigenous representatives.
From my personal observations the indigenous folk I know are happy that there are indigenous members in our parliament and they feel they dont need more spokespeople.
It wont change because it cant as no one will move on.
This is from both sides Cuppa as with every comment blaming me for their plight there will be a me trying to explain that I had no control over what happened 250 years ago.
Maybe some of those antagonists should stop and think how different things may have been if Australia was settled by another country.
Maybe some might contemplate how this division is dragging our country down and how easy it would be for an eastern country to gain indigenous support and take our country through invasion.
And with that you will say
*Dont be stupid Rob*
And so we will start again. This merry go round will never end because it will always be the whiteys fault.
Now we have ruined this topic completely I would hand it back to you to tell us all what needs to be done that will fix this.
Not pie in the sky dreams and wishes but what we can do physically and mentally to fix this.
In my position I dont have a problem as I know it wasnt me that performed atrocities 200 years ago. I have indigenous and non indigenous friends and we all get on fine as friends and Aussies and I know that governments have genuinely tried to address this problem since I was old enough to vote so what should both sides that are in disagreement do from here on.???
"You and I can beat each other up over it"
The notion of battle is not for me Rob, those are your words. I neither wish to beat anyone up, nor to be beaten up. You & I are little more than names to each other. We have differing views but if we had met in different circumstances I expect we could have enjoyed a yarn & a couple of beers around a campfire together.
I acknowledge your anger blaming me for your friend being excluded from the forum. But I think your anger is misplaced
The only reason he was was excluded was because his behaviour was out of order. His behaviour is what got him excluded.
Loyalty is one thing but battling to suggest that he was excluded because of me is not one which is sustainable, I knew him less than I know you.
We clearly have very different world views, different languages if you like. I don't see the world as you do & don't agree with a lot of what you have posted above. The facts you cite given context would look very different to the facts which suit your world view but I don't I have the energy to bash my head around that particular fairground ride.
I think if you re-read my post a few more times you may hopefully see that whilst not suggesting solutions to a seemingly intractable problem that I am suggesting a process. For that process to begin & to stand a chance of being successful it requires quite the opposite of a fight, it requires all participants to want a just & equitable outcome, a win for all. Not one mob telling another mob what they should or shouldn't do, have or not have.
Getting to the starting line is the hardest part as it means taking a path without the usual signposts. That requires trust.
Your prediction of a merry go round which will never end is what we have seen for generations & is what I call 'being stuck' We only know what we know, & because we know no different we continue to do what we can & get frustrated & angry because it doesn't work. That's where the blaming starts. That's what fuels the Merry go round's motor.
I believe the tide is turning, that more & more glimpses of life off the Merry go round are becoming available, opportunities to do something different, & that we are moving closer to a situation where those who remain stuck will become an increasing minority & who's demands & finger pointing will have less & less influence. For those folk there will be an inevitable sense of loss, & with that fear of what will happen. I said it won't be easy but I also maintain that it will be worthwhile & that if we can engage in the process we will get through it, & together get off the bloody roundabout.
At least that is my hope. I might be accused of wishful thinking, of lacking a realistic outlook by some, but what is certain is that I know remaining stuck on that merry go round is certainly not my goal any more than trying to win a fight at another's expense.
regards
Cuppa
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 10:34:18 PM
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 10:37:54 PM
-- Edited by Cuppa on Thursday 20th of October 2022 10:42:32 PM
Dont worry about sports people, there are others too.
"Well I now need to ask a question.
Will the daughters of the current players still hold this animosity. Will the grandchildren and the great grandchildren feel the same.
Cuppa I will give you the answer and unfortunately it *yes*"
Not everyone perpetuates the crimes of their parents. That's a glass half empty statement if ever I heard one.
Hi Kevin,
I think the label of 'animosity' attributed to the current players choosing not to accept sponsorship is far from accurate.
Animosity is defined as 'Extreme hostility' which I consider an accurate description of the statements made publicly by Lang Han**** in 1984 when he proposed the solution to the 'aboriginal problem' would be to poison their water.
Refusing sponsorship from Lang Han****'s daughter in the circumstances displays hurt that she has never acknowledged & is still felt. Expressing one's hurt is not the same as expressing extreme hostility, far from it.
We should all be careful about the language we use as words can be very powerful & negative implications attributed by choice of words can be absorbed & accepted without realising if we are not careful regardless of whether they are used carelessly or by design.
-- Edited by Cuppa on Friday 21st of October 2022 10:33:41 AM
Your 100% correct Rob. The starting point in EVERY case are DOLLARS......the reason that people give in every case is a smokescreen. eg in this case it has zero to do with what Lang Han**** said or what the netballer thinks!
cheers Bilbo
I can't follow your logic Bilbo. Why do you think the netballers have said no thanks to the money?
Surely if money were the most important thing the netballers would have just said thank you very much & taken it. But that's not what they've done.
What therefore would lead you to believe that the netballers are anything but sincere in the reasons they have given?
Sponsorship is almost always about benefiting the sponsor, rarely is it purely philanthropic. Does that have something to do with what you are saying?
Who said "no" to money ("if" anyone did??)....the individual OR the netballers??.....if it was the former they need some serious "retraining".....if it was the later they dont understand "the game"...... like you............cheers Bilbo
I wonder how long before we have to bow to the king of Wokes on this forum.
From my observation so far, our resident self appointed King of Wokes never answers a question with any answer with fact but his response always involves the redefining the words of others to satisfy his dominance. He comes out as snowy white if I may say that on here and all others not so.
Now this is reminding me of others who have chosen to use this forum as a platform for their misguided agenda.
They never answer a question with fact. I wonder why?
-- Edited by Ivan 01 on Saturday 22nd of October 2022 02:11:05 PM
From somewhere or other I recall the wise advice of "Don't bite the hand which feeds you."
ABC News
"Gina has rescinded the offer. No money for the Diamonds"
Love to have been a fly on the wall when the netball hierarchy heard of that decision!!!!