yes seriously . if you read my post i said i didn't think it was as bad as some would have us believe not that i didn't think it was an issue .
no overloaded vehicle should be on the road , just like nobody should be speeding but it still happens .
-- Edited by bratboy on Thursday 12th of May 2022 05:43:04 PM
Perhaps you could try and read what you post, that would make a good change!
I think you need to get out there and just see how bad it is
cheers
Ian
Been Out there as you put it for the past 6 years full time , we obviously travel different roads or maybe your eyeball scales are better then mine .no i think your just another drama queen who likes to incite conflict .
dogbox said
11:22 AM May 13, 2022
Gundog wrote:
dogbox wrote:
as mentioned by OLDBLOKE the issue of a license to tow a caravan ect , or maybe a compulsory "tow safe " course , would make people who tow more aware of their responsibilities /obligations / limitations.
Seiously do you believe that, we have people required to do training to get a licence and yet everyday we encounter clowns who dont think those rules apply to them, where is the cutoff point before you need a licence endorsement to tow a trailer. would it be any trailer that needs registration or over 1000 kg ATM, remember in some states a caravan is just a trailer.
Then you will require 5 states and 2 territories to agree and I see that would take some time, and then do you automatically give that endorsement to everyone who has a proven ownership or history of towing a trailer, and how do you treat someone with higher endorsements than a car. Do we than have different classes of trailers that different endorsements.
It's not a simple excercise to have caravaners to get an endorsement to tow and do tow safe course, my guess it would take 5 to 10 years to get full compliance, give or take a few who wont comply just like some drivers who dont have a licence to drive a car.
what i believe is totally irrelevant 5 to 10 years from now some of us won't be affected either way . the idea of getting some form of education before being allowed to tow fits in with everything else we do in life ,you want to operate a chainsaw you should have a certificate to say that you have received some instruction to reduce the risk to your self or others, you want to operate a forklift or other equipment you are required to do some form of education or training you want to give financial advice you require some form of qualification . when motor vehicles came on the scene no requirements or qualification required ,you are now required to take a test written and practical if you wish to drive, if you wish to drive bigger vehicles you have to upgrade you license . that would not necessarily make you a more competent driver but if you break the rules you run the risk of losing your right to drive. ignorance not being an excuse
new drivers are required to keep a log book to record the number of hours they have had under instruction, before they can take a test ,most of us can remember the days of just fronting up, once around the block an we where right to go. times are changing, if towing accidents become an issue i'm sure the authorities will find some way to complicate our lives or more likely those that come after us.
Mike Harding said
12:07 PM May 13, 2022
dogbox wrote:
the idea of getting some form of education before being allowed to tow fits in with everything else we do in life ,you want to operate a chainsaw you should have a certificate to say that you have received some instruction to reduce the risk to your self or others, you want to operate a forklift or other equipment you are required to do some form of education or training you want to give financial advice you require some form of qualification .
Where would you like to stop? At a "Kettle Boilers Certificate of Proficiency" perhaps?
I would not oppose a test for towing a trailer over, say, 1T because it is so different from car only driving skills and is not intuitive. But I am opposed to testing people for a range of applications simply because some are intrinsically risk adverse and have shares in cotton wool companies.
dogbox said
12:23 PM May 13, 2022
the list goes on almost endlessly of the things we have to get permits ,licenses, qualifications ect ect , i have done some courses were the instructor was book learned and had no idea what happened in the field but i still had to sit and listen to his drivele so he could tell me i was competent to do my job
yobarr said
02:36 PM May 13, 2022
dogbox wrote:
the list goes on almost endlessly of the things we have to get permits ,licenses, qualifications ect ect , i have done some courses were the instructor was book learned and had no idea what happened in the field but i still had to sit and listen to his drivel so he could tell me I was competent to do my job
Now, that is something that I can relate to. Way back in the 1980s I was operating a 30 ton excavator on a site in Central Sydney where we had to maintain the existing facade of a beautiful old building while we demolished every thing behind the facade and excavated for a huge underground capark. Very dangerous work it was, and all was going well until somebody from OH&S or similar turned up on site to tell me that I was operating the excavator incorrectly on the side of the DEEP excavation. According to this clown, always the tracks of the excavator should be parellel with the cliff face because this made the machine "more stable". A spirited "discussion" ensued, during which I told him that he wouldn't know spit from clay, and that the safest way to work on the edge of a cliff was to have the tracks of the machine at right angle to the cliff face so that if the face started to crumble I could simply reverse away from the edge. He wouldn't have a bar of it though, because his little Red Book said otherwise. He had no idea of how to safely do the job, and no experience on machines. An impasse followed until I got back on the machine and continued digging. Weellll, what this fella wasn't going to do to me and the job wasn't worth mentioning. He stormed off the site, got into his car and sped away, never to be seen again. Imagine if the machine operator had been a beginner and had actually heeded this clown's advice. It wouldn't have ended well. Talk about the blind leading the blind. These little Tin Gods may well think that they know it all because they've done a course, and have a certificate, but there is no substitute for common sense and experience. Over the years I have had many similar experiences, but this will do for now. Cheers
not that it has anything to do with overloaded caravans Yobarr but just interested how high your bench was with your 30 ton excavator you say very deep having spent a fair bit of time working on 3 meter benches with a 160 ton digger be interested to know how very deep you can reach with a 30 ton digger
Izabarack said
03:44 PM May 13, 2022
montie wrote:
I have been suggesting a compulsory tow ed course for new caravanners for years.
Im seriously interested in the specific outcomes you think a tow ed course would achieve. I would also like to know just how a tow ed course would cause a change in behaviour once the driver completes the course. Any course seeking to attain compulsory status would have to to be competency oriented and be eligible for inclusion in the National Core Curriculum that covers TAFE courses, for example.
dogbox said
04:14 PM May 13, 2022
Izabarack wrote:
montie wrote:
I have been suggesting a compulsory tow ed course for new caravanners for years.
Im seriously interested in the specific outcomes you think a tow ed course would achieve. I would also like to know just how a tow ed course would cause a change in behaviour once the driver completes the course. Any course seeking to attain compulsory status would have to to be competency oriented and be eligible for inclusion in the National Core Curriculum that covers TAFE courses, for example.
at least some of the newbies will get some sort of introduction . we must remember that some people who have never towed before will purchase a caravan to go live the dream. some salesman may try and sell them the one that he makes the most money out of whether their tow vehicle is capable or not . will it change their behavior/ attitude i don't know sometime a little bit of knowledge is better than none truck drivers have different classes of licenses to upgrade one must do a bit of training/assessment with an ACCEDITED trainer ,does that make them a better operator ? as stated previously it use to be once around the block if you didn't hit anything good to go ,your qualified
oldbloke said
04:28 PM May 13, 2022
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
86GTS wrote:
I've met quite a few guys that know their caravan is overweight but "the little lady" insists that she must bring everything but the kitchen sink. They want to keep the peace so they ignore the fact.
SO . "They want to keep the peace .." do they? WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"? Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded, even if they were not at fault? As well as having all insurance claims denied they could end up in jail, and " the lttle lady" could be injured,or worse. Many of these clowns might do well to research the recent case in NSW where Stephen George Russell was jailed for over 2 years for losing control of his overloaded Prado and van which then hit a tree (?), killing his wife and her son. He was a highly experienced interstate truckie but still was involved in a fatal accident caused by overloading. Would these clowns who don't seem to know what their vehicles weigh prefer to see their "little lady" angry, injured or worse. These days I spend my days driving a Roadtrain that is legal at waaaay over 130 ton, but I always ensure all my axle weights and GCM are not exceeded. Cheers
Just a few points, and I'm not saying it's OK to be non- compliant.
Strangely, we seem to agree on some points, which I will address below.
1. I think its mainly lack of understanding/knowledge and complacency.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. "Honestly Officer, I didn't know I couldn't tow 3500kg with my Triton".
Another pathetic attempt at baiting. Let me correct you.
"Honestly Officer I didn't know my Toyota was waaay over weight. Please don't fine me, I just paid a fine for my semi being over weight too."
2. Most of the lack of knowledge would be fixed if training, and/ or a license was required to tow.
NOW we agree. The sooner a law is enacted requiring such a licence for towing, the better. And NO multiple choice questions either. The problem we have is that many in "authority" have little idea about weights and physics.
3. When you first buy a van most find understanding weights far from simple.
Agreed, but it is easy to learn, providing the person trying to educate these people is not contradicted by those who know little, understand less and have no real interest in learning.
4. Yobarr, your statement "They want to keep the peace .." do they? WTF. Don't these clowns have any idea? Do they have no interest in the safety of others and, in particular, the safety of "the lttle lady"? Do they have no idea of the legal situation if they are involved in an accident and found to be overloaded"
This clearly indicates your lack of underdtanding regarding marital relationships and how many women tick.
Would you prefer that your wife have you understand how she "ticks", or would you prefer to have her know that you love her and would rather see her angry than dead?
5. Towing weights is no different to any other niche subject, not everyone is an expert. Bet you know buggerall about atmospheric monitoring, or explosives but it doesn't automatically make you an idiot.
On the contrary, I easily recognise hot air when I see it.
Let me correct your statement.
On the contrary, I easily recognise that I am full of hot air. But luckily, OB is telling the truth. I so, admire him.
6. Basically it isn't easy to comply.
Do you believe that, since you believe that it "isn't easy to comply", people should simply ignore the law?
7. Just because your overweight by a few kg does not mean death is imminent, (as you seem to often imply) just that the risk has increased.
A few kg is neither here nor there, and a tolerance with weights generally is allowed by compliance officers if a plausible excuse is given, but when you see Tritons and similar towing HUGE vans, to ensure safety of ALL road users, something must be done. When I get time I will fully relate the story of an MUX I saw yesterday from my Roadtrain. ALL over road because the van (Tail) was wagging the Dog (Car), with white knuckles, and yaw of over 2 metres.
8. I expect this thread to be locked fairly quickly. :)
Cheers OB :)
Edit: repeatedly posting g images of accidents or critical parts that have failed without all of the relevant information is simply scare mongering and designed to bait.
All of the photos that I post without claiming them as my own have been taken from the internet, so I fail to see how using them should be classed, by you, as "scare mongering".
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of May 2022 08:21:50 PM
Cheers OB ;)
Izabarack said
04:41 PM May 13, 2022
dogbox wrote:
at least some of the newbies will get some sort of introduction .
So what? Why have anything if its not going to do something specific as in a stated, material, and measurable outcome.
Too often the requirement to undergo compulsory training and an endorsement barrier test is thrown out there. Nearly always those calls come from those who do not have a clue about what future behavioural change requires in the person getting training. Competency based training starts with a Training Needs Analysis that is directed towards observable, measurable, forward competency in knowledge, skills, and attitudes. Everyone should do a course is just a vacuous statement without necessary detail to support the imposition of such an idea.
If generic training, testing, a driving demonstration, and a license (or endorsement) prevented crashes, then there would be no Road Trauma stats available for State Governments to collect revenue from.
yobarr said
05:38 PM May 13, 2022
Some time ago I was chastised by another sensitive member of the forum for using bold, coloured script, but it seems such is now acceptable? And in case it was me who was being referenced by the pathetic comment about the semi and the Toyota both being overweight, I would like it to be known that neither my Roadtrain, at waaaay over 100 ton, nor my Landcruiser and van, at 6800kg is overweight. All legal, all safe, all insured. Cheers
P.S VDJ79R. Nothing compares or competes.
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 06:05:17 PM
as mentioned by OLDBLOKE the issue of a license to tow a caravan ect , or maybe a compulsory "tow safe " course , would make people who tow more aware of their responsibilities /obligations / limitations.
I have been suggesting a compulsory tow ed course for new caravanners for years.
Also any experienced vanner who commits any offence relating to his rig should also be required to do so.
It would also be helpful if the relevant authorities were to simplify some of the weight issues relating to caravans and tugs. Way too much useless and confusing information.
Yep, pretty much what I'm thinking.
Although it's obvious to most some vans are waaay over weight I think that from a safety point of view a few kg over is of little consequence. Laws and regulations regarding this type of issue ALWAYS have a very significant safety margin built in.
For example, under test conditions forklift tynes must be able of lifting, without deformation 2.5 times what they are rated.
These requirements in the form of AS/NZS standards are written by qualified people on panels. Laws and regulations are normally written in a similar manner then passed through the houses, or signed off by the relevant ministers.
Policing, if enough die, they will change the regulations if required and start more aggressive compliance checks or insist on training. Unfortunately, little if any accurate data is freely available specific to vans and the road toll.
And I certainly would not rely on any info in that regard on any forum.
dogbox said
05:49 PM May 13, 2022
Izabarack wrote:
dogbox wrote:
at least some of the newbies will get some sort of introduction .
So what? Why have anything if its not going to do something specific as in a stated, material, and measurable outcome.
Too often the requirement to undergo compulsory training and an endorsement barrier test is thrown out there. Nearly always those calls come from those who do not have a clue about what future behavioural change requires in the person getting training. Competency based training starts with a Training Needs Analysis that is directed towards observable, measurable, forward competency in knowledge, skills, and attitudes. Everyone should do a course is just a vacuous statement without necessary detail to support the imposition of such an idea.
If generic training, testing, a driving demonstration, and a license (or endorsement) prevented crashes, then there would be no Road Trauma stats available for State Governments to collect revenue from.
what would you suggest ? if what we have has a few short falls then something must be altered
oldbloke said
05:59 PM May 13, 2022
yobarr wrote:
Some time ago I was chastised by another sensitive member of the forum for using bold, coloured script, but it seems such is now acceptable? And in case it was me who was being referenced by the pathetic comment about the semi and the Toyota both being overweight, I would like it to be known that neither my Roadtrain, at waaaay over 100 ton, nor my Landcruiser and van, at 6800kg is overweight. All legal, all safe, all insured. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 05:47:27 PM
And let me assure you that your pathetic comment about Tritons was completely unnecessary. And a pathetic attempt of baiting me. BTW My Triton (bloody great ute) and van are compliant.
Let's face it, no qualifications are required to bait people. Any pathetic individual can do it. Because it's simple.
Cheers OB ;)
yobarr said
06:11 PM May 13, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Some time ago I was chastised by another sensitive member of the forum for using bold, coloured script, but it seems such is now acceptable? And in case it was me who was being referenced by the pathetic comment about the semi and the Toyota both being overweight, I would like it to be known that neither my Roadtrain, at waaaay over 100 ton, nor my Landcruiser and van, at 6800kg is overweight. All legal, all safe, all insured. Cheers
And let me assure you that your pathetic comment about Tritons was completely unnecessary. And a pathetic attempt of baiting me. BTW My Triton (bloody great ute) and van are compliant.
Let's face it, no qualifications are required to bait people. Any pathetic individual can do it. Because it's simple.
Cheers OB ;)
Great to see that you have your car and van compliant. Did you perhaps take the advice that I selflessly offered during our friendly correspondence nearly 3 years ago? Details below to assist your apparently selective memory.Cheers
For someone who has experienced first hand the proud new caravan owner leave our dealership and doing well to turn left into 5 lanes of traffic without taking the side out of their van is enough to convince me that some training is necessary before we release these well meaning people into the traffic. A large percentage of first time caravanners are not capable of towing a 6×4 trailer much less a 2.5 tonne caravan.
No disrespect but it is a simple reality.
A tow ed course is comprehensive offering weight information, theoretical and practical towing situations, skid pan training, reversing techniques, sudden avoidance techniques, just to mention a few.
A few years back we decided to offer a free TowEd course with every new van sold...an innovation we thought. Wrong! Less than 10% cashed in their free voucher!
There can be no argument against educating people who obviously need it!
yobarr said
07:19 PM May 13, 2022
montie wrote:
For someone who has experienced first hand the proud new caravan owner leave our dealership and doing well to turn left into 5 lanes of traffic without taking the side out of their van is enough to convince me that some training is necessary before we release these well meaning people into the traffic. A large percentage of first time caravanners are not capable of towing a 6×4 trailer much less a 2.5 tonne caravan. No disrespect but it is a simple reality.
A tow ed course is comprehensive offering weight information, theoretical and practical towing situations, skid pan training, reversing techniques, sudden avoidance techniques, just to mention a few. A few years back we decided to offer a free TowEd course with every new van sold...an innovation we thought. Wrong! Less than 10% cashed in their free voucher!
There can be no argument against educating people who obviously need it!
Great post, Montie, with lots of good advice and common sense suggestions. As well as making it compulsory that drivers be able to reverse,using mirrors, through 90 degrees on the "blind" side, into a parking space, they should also be able to show a basic understanding of how to safely load a van, particularly keeping weight near the middle of the van, not hanging off the rear bumper or piled high on the drawbar. And a thorough understanding of rear axle loadings should a prerequisite. But it'll never happen because, to too many, ignorance is bliss, and is their biggest asset. C'est la vie. Cheers
oldbloke said
08:11 PM May 13, 2022
yobarr wrote:
bratboy wrote:
Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .
You seem not to have a name, so I cannot address you personally, but I will say that surely you jest? Some time ago free caravan "weigh ins" were conducted in Queensland, with no penalties involved for transgressors. More than 70% of caravans presented for test weighs were found to be overloaded in some way. As for your comment about "more compliance inspectors out on the roads", again, surely you jest? Can you imagine the uproar if up to 70% of caravans were told to park-up alongside the road and shed a few hundred KGs of weight before being allowed to proceed? Political suicide. AND can you imagine the uproar if ALL towing vehicles had to comply with the SENSIBLE law that says that if a vehicle with a GVM of over 4500kg is towing a PIG trailer ALWAYS the weight on the wheels of the towing vehicle must be greater than the weight on the wheels of the towed vehicle. This common sense practice minimises the all too familiar cause of caravan accidents, where the "tail wags the Dog" and it all goes. R-Sup. During my travels I have often spoken to people whose vehicles were obviously overloaded, some to the point of stupidity, but they either get very defensive or just don't care. Fools. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of May 2022 06:23:06 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Thursday 12th of May 2022 06:48:19 PM
Yobar, I'm interested. Would you mind posting a copy of that LAW? That is news to me and would put just about every van in the country off the road. Or am I missing something? Pls educate me mate.
Cheers OB ;)
Radar said
08:43 PM May 13, 2022
I was just thinking,"do I know anybody with a caravan or motorhome" that actually is wandering around western Queensland overloaded.
Myself, a no
My brother, a no.
My sister, a no.
Close friends by 6, no but the plumder friend gets close to being overloaded, he gets free nights in caravan parks with his tools, it is ok, most times no water on board and he close on his weights.
Close friends x 2 with motorhomes, a big no.
Interstate friends x 3, a no.
People we have enjoyed there company while on the road at camps in the last 3 years, probably 20 caravaners, a no.
I must tell you from following this forum, everytime I see a tinnie on the roof "I think that there overloaded specially if it is a Landcruiser".
I personally don't think it that big a issue and only highlighted by people with very little to do.
yobarr said
08:59 PM May 13, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
bratboy wrote:
Sorry but i disagree , if the issue was really as bad as some would have us believe i think there would be far more compliance inspections out on the roads .
You seem not to have a name, so I cannot address you personally, but I will say that surely you jest? Some time ago free caravan "weigh ins" were conducted in Queensland, with no penalties involved for transgressors. More than 70% of caravans presented for test weighs were found to be overloaded in some way. As for your comment about "more compliance inspectors out on the roads", again, surely you jest? Can you imagine the uproar if up to 70% of caravans were told to park-up alongside the road and shed a few hundred KGs of weight before being allowed to proceed? Political suicide. AND can you imagine the uproar if ALL towing vehicles had to comply with the SENSIBLE law that says that if a vehicle with a GVM of over 4500kg is towing a PIG trailer ALWAYS the weight on the wheels of the towing vehicle must be greater than the weight on the wheels of the towed vehicle. This common sense practice minimises the all too familiar cause of caravan accidents, where the "tail wags the Dog" and it all goes. R-Sup. During my travels I have often spoken to people whose vehicles were obviously overloaded, some to the point of stupidity, but they either get very defensive or just don't care. Fools. Cheers
Yobar, I'm interested. Would you mind posting a copy of that LAW? That is news to me and would put just about every van in the country off the road. Or am I missing something? Pls educate me mate.
Cheers OB ;)
Firstly, could I respectfully point out that there are two 'Rs' in Yobarr! Once again, you seem not to have actually READ my post, as currently the law relating to the towing of PIG trailers includes only those trailers that are towed by vehicles with a GVM OVER 4500kg. . As you suggest, the implementation of such a law for ALL towing vehicles would get many (most?) vans off the road, and the sooner the better., in my opinion. We all would be a lot safer. Take Ma and Pa Kettle who I saw a couple of days ago. It is most likely that they didn't understand how tow ratings were given when they hooked up their massive van to their MUX with its apparent 3500kg tow capacity. Yeah, right. The van was a dual axle model, at least 23' long, and seemed to have had non-load sharing suspension. The front was waaay lower than the rear, with high towball weight evidenced by the car's headlights pointing skyward, and the rear axle of the van barely touching the road. Thus, there was little weight on the van's rear axle, meaning that the front van axle was the effective 'pivot' point and the rear overhang being enormous. Think 'YAW,.(Or look it up!) This unit was all over the road, with Pa Kettle hanging on for grim death, white knuckles and a fixed stare straight ahead as the caravan swung wildly around behind him, with yaw of maybe 2 metres. Would have loved to follow him to see how far he got, but turning a 3 trailer Roadtrain around takes a lot of room! Bugger! Cheers
I was just thinking,"do I know anybody with a caravan or motorhome" that actually is wandering around western Queensland overloaded.
Myself, a no
My brother, a no.
My sister, a no.
Close friends by 6, no but the plumder friend gets close to being overloaded, he gets free nights in caravan parks with his tools, it is ok, most times no water on board and he close on his weights.
Close friends x 2 with motorhomes, a big no.
Interstate friends x 3, a no.
People we have enjoyed there company while on the road at camps in the last 3 years, probably 20 caravaners, a no.
I must tell you from following this forum, everytime I see a tinnie on the roof "I think that there overloaded specially if it is a Landcruiser".
I personally don't think it that big a issue and only highlighted by people with very little to do.
Hi Ralph. And these friends have all weighed the rear axle of their loaded vehicles, have they? And they all were under their axle limits? When I spent time in Western Queensland, around August, September and October last year, many of the caravanners I met and spoke with knew that they were overloaded, while others had no clue. Not exceeding your GVM or your GCM does not necessarily mean you're not overloaded. It's the rear axle of the car that is the problem, with most twin-cabs around 1800-1850kg and the IMO overrated LC200 at a miserable 1950kg. Spare me! Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 09:54:59 PM
montie said
10:16 PM May 13, 2022
I don't mind contributing to any forum and offering my opinion based on my experience...my opinions are just that and are open to discussion.
I am always happy to discuss or debate any of those opinions.
It is my opinion that this forum has become a pissing contest between a small number of members to the detriment of the forum generally.
Admin you have a decision to make.
yobarr said
10:29 PM May 13, 2022
A heavy vehicle is one that has a GVM of 4500kg or more. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 10:31:56 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 10:33:40 PM
Just a couple of observations - while at Capella, waiting for the road north to open, there was an older couple staying there too. Had a single axles van, about 16, 17' long, towed by a Jeep Cherokee V6 diesel. They were going fishing at Weipa & had a Quintrex 350 (11') boat on top of the car, where the motor was, I didn't see it. In the back of the car I saw two fridges - a Trailblazer & an Engel - did they know about "the 5 Barras in your possession" rule? I don't know. That rig was obviously over loaded.
Yobarr,
Looking at the problems with dual cabs bending chassis due to overloading, I noticed that all Asian sourced vehicles have the tray, tub extending further beyond the rear axle than the Yank ones eg the Fords, Dodges, Chevs & GMCs. I would guess that it was easier to put heavier weights + a trailer on the unsupported sections of the Asian utes than the American batch.
oldbloke said
08:45 AM May 14, 2022
Yobar, it doesn't apply to vans though does it? That's what my comment was about.
Maybe because it isn't sensible to apply it to vans.
oldbloke said
10:14 AM May 14, 2022
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
Some time ago I was chastised by another sensitive member of the forum for using bold, coloured script, but it seems such is now acceptable? And in case it was me who was being referenced by the pathetic comment about the semi and the Toyota both being overweight, I would like it to be known that neither my Roadtrain, at waaaay over 100 ton, nor my Landcruiser and van, at 6800kg is overweight. All legal, all safe, all insured. Cheers
And let me assure you that your pathetic comment about Tritons was completely unnecessary. And a pathetic attempt of baiting me. BTW My Triton (bloody great ute) and van are compliant.
Let's face it, no qualifications are required to bait people. Any pathetic individual can do it. Because it's simple.
Cheers OB ;)
Great to see that you have your car and van compliant. Did you perhaps take the advice that I selflessly offered during our friendly correspondence nearly 3 years ago? Details below to assist your apparently selective memory.Cheers
Wow Yobar, your still trolling me I see. Almost 3 years ago. Great effort. Put your little mind at rest I resolved my problem another way, I now simply carry less water in the van. :)
Ever heard "less is more"
oldbloke said
10:46 AM May 14, 2022
yobarr wrote:
dogbox wrote:
the list goes on almost endlessly of the things we have to get permits ,licenses, qualifications ect ect , i have done some courses were the instructor was book learned and had no idea what happened in the field but i still had to sit and listen to his drivel so he could tell me I was competent to do my job
Now, that is something that I can relate to. Way back in the 1980s I was operating a 30 ton excavator on a site in Central Sydney where we had to maintain the existing facade of a beautiful old building while we demolished every thing behind the facade and excavated for a huge underground capark. Very dangerous work it was, and all was going well until somebody from OH&S or similar turned up on site to tell me that I was operating the excavator incorrectly on the side of the DEEP excavation. According to this clown, always the tracks of the excavator should be parellel with the cliff face because this made the machine "more stable". A spirited "discussion" ensued, during which I told him that he wouldn't know spit from clay, and that the safest way to work on the edge of a cliff was to have the tracks of the machine at right angle to the cliff face so that if the face started to crumble I could simply reverse away from the edge. He wouldn't have a bar of it though, because his little Red Book said otherwise. He had no idea of how to safely do the job, and no experience on machines. An impasse followed until I got back on the machine and continued digging. Weellll, what this fella wasn't going to do to me and the job wasn't worth mentioning. He stormed off the site, got into his car and sped away, never to be seen again. Imagine if the machine operator had been a beginner and had actually heeded this clown's advice. It wouldn't have ended well. Talk about the blind leading the blind. These little Tin Gods may well think that they know it all because they've done a course, and have a certificate, but there is no substitute for common sense and experience. Over the years I have had many similar experiences, but this will do for now. Cheers
I wasn't going to comment on this but decided some here may think I agree with your actions if I didn't. I don't.
Well, Yobar, actually if your working so close to the edge that there was a danger of the edge collapsing you were in breach. (and the edge is not supported) You were putting yourself and fellow work mates at high risk. Even putting the company at risk of heavy fines or even going under.
Compliance codes (COPs) have been around for many years in all states, including NSW. They are developed by highly qualified and experienced professionals. (not blokes with a ticket ) The dangers of a collapse happening have been known since the day dot and are very real. And a competent operator would be well aware of this and take appropriate action.
Below is a page out of the current Compliance code for Excavation work free from the Victorian worksafe site. It clearly indicates that working on the edge of a trench with an excavator is not on.
I guess you will come back with some knowall comment but I just expect that.
BTW If that person was an inspector and you tried treating them like that these days you might find yourself in front of the judge. You were lucky.
Yobar, it doesn't apply to vans though does it? That's what my comment was about.
Maybe because it isn't sensible to apply it to vans.
There seems to be some confusion here? Not sure what you mean by "it doesn't apply to vans though does it?". Obviously not. My post referenced the fact that, if a PIG trailer is being towed by a heavy vehicle,which is a vehicle with a GVM above 4500kg, then always the weight on the wheels of the tow vehicle must be greater than the weight on the wheels of the PIG trailer, including caravans. This is a safety issue and centres around the need to minimise the chances of the "Tail wagging the Dog", a is a common sense approach. You then asked me to post a copy of the relevant LAW, which I did, even though Mr Google could quickly and easily have helped you! You now say "it doesn't apply to vans though does it?". It doesn't. Surely you understand that this is exactly the point that I have been making on the forum, and that the sooner such a law is enacted that covers ALL tow vehicles the safer we all will be. While we continue to allow dozens of families to run around in their 6000kg GCM buzz-boxes, towing 3500kg vans, we always will have incidents of fish-tailing, and the "Tail wagging the Dog". These are not simply accidents, but the result of physics at work. A PIG trailer (caravan) is one of the most unstable vehicles imaginable, and if it is not loaded correctly and towed by a heavier vehicle, it is an accident looking for a place to happen. Hope this clears some confusion, but as always I am happy to answer any sensible question. Cheers
yobarr said
12:40 PM May 14, 2022
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
dogbox wrote:
the list goes on almost endlessly of the things we have to get permits ,licenses, qualifications ect ect , i have done some courses were the instructor was book learned and had no idea what happened in the field but i still had to sit and listen to his drivel so he could tell me I was competent to do my job
Now, that is something that I can relate to. Way back in the 1980s I was operating a 30 ton excavator on a site in Central Sydney where we had to maintain the existing facade of a beautiful old building while we demolished every thing behind the facade and excavated for a huge underground capark. Very dangerous work it was, and all was going well until somebody from OH&S or similar turned up on site to tell me that I was operating the excavator incorrectly on the side of the DEEP excavation. According to this clown, always the tracks of the excavator should be parellel with the cliff face because this made the machine "more stable". A spirited "discussion" ensued, during which I told him that he wouldn't know spit from clay, and that the safest way to work on the edge of a cliff was to have the tracks of the machine at right angle to the cliff face so that if the face started to crumble I could simply reverse away from the edge. He wouldn't have a bar of it though, because his little Red Book said otherwise. He had no idea of how to safely do the job, and no experience on machines. An impasse followed until I got back on the machine and continued digging. Weellll, what this fella wasn't going to do to me and the job wasn't worth mentioning. He stormed off the site, got into his car and sped away, never to be seen again. Imagine if the machine operator had been a beginner and had actually heeded this clown's advice. It wouldn't have ended well. Talk about the blind leading the blind. These little Tin Gods may well think that they know it all because they've done a course, and have a certificate, but there is no substitute for common sense and experience. Over the years I have had many similar experiences, but this will do for now. Cheers
I wasn't going to comment on this but decided some here may think I agree with your actions if I didn't. I don't.
Well, Yobar, actually if your working so close to the edge that there was a danger of the edge collapsing you were in breach. (and the edge is not supported) You were putting yourself and fellow work mates at high risk. Even putting the company at risk of heavy fines or even going under.
Compliance codes (COPs) have been around for many years in all states, including NSW. They are developed by highly qualified and experienced professionals. (not blokes with a ticket ) The dangers of a collapse happening have been known since the day dot and are very real. And a competent operator would be well aware of this and take appropriate action.
Below is a page out of the current Compliance code for Excavation work free from the Victorian worksafe site. It clearly indicates that working on the edge of a trench with an excavator is not on.
I guess you will come back with some knowall comment but I just expect that.
BTW If that person was an inspector and you tried treating them like that these days you might find yourself in front of the judge. You were lucky.
Yes, things certainly have changed in the time since I gave up operating, and probably not for the better, might I say. Today's "inspectors" would have a nightmare if they saw an excavator hanging from a winch rope over the edge of a near vertical cliff as I descended onto the beach below to do retention work to prevent the cliff being eroded and houses lost. As I descended my feet were braced on the pillars either side of the windscreen to keep me in the seat. Closer to your home I worked an excavator in the Otway ranges on hillsides so steep that the tracks had to be braced against tree stumps to prevent the machine from skating many metres down the hillside into the gully below. If this happened, as it sometimes did, it then was a case of 'walking' the excavator a long, roundabout distance back to the top of the hill, and starting all over! Heavy rain didn't help, but there was no other way of doing the job. And probably a bit dangerous too, as there was nobody else for literally miles, so if there was an accident nobody would have any idea until I didn't arrive back at the yard after work to get more diesel for the next day's work. Ah, the good old days when you were responsible for your own safety, and nobody held your hand. Cheers
oldbloke said
12:48 PM May 14, 2022
yobarr wrote:
oldbloke wrote:
yobarr wrote:
dogbox wrote:
the list goes on almost endlessly of the things we have to get permits ,licenses, qualifications ect ect , i have done some courses were the instructor was book learned and had no idea what happened in the field but i still had to sit and listen to his drivel so he could tell me I was competent to do my job
Now, that is something that I can relate to. Way back in the 1980s I was operating a 30 ton excavator on a site in Central Sydney where we had to maintain the existing facade of a beautiful old building while we demolished every thing behind the facade and excavated for a huge underground capark. Very dangerous work it was, and all was going well until somebody from OH&S or similar turned up on site to tell me that I was operating the excavator incorrectly on the side of the DEEP excavation. According to this clown, always the tracks of the excavator should be parellel with the cliff face because this made the machine "more stable". A spirited "discussion" ensued, during which I told him that he wouldn't know spit from clay, and that the safest way to work on the edge of a cliff was to have the tracks of the machine at right angle to the cliff face so that if the face started to crumble I could simply reverse away from the edge. He wouldn't have a bar of it though, because his little Red Book said otherwise. He had no idea of how to safely do the job, and no experience on machines. An impasse followed until I got back on the machine and continued digging. Weellll, what this fella wasn't going to do to me and the job wasn't worth mentioning. He stormed off the site, got into his car and sped away, never to be seen again. Imagine if the machine operator had been a beginner and had actually heeded this clown's advice. It wouldn't have ended well. Talk about the blind leading the blind. These little Tin Gods may well think that they know it all because they've done a course, and have a certificate, but there is no substitute for common sense and experience. Over the years I have had many similar experiences, but this will do for now. Cheers
I wasn't going to comment on this but decided some here may think I agree with your actions if I didn't. I don't.
Well, Yobar, actually if your working so close to the edge that there was a danger of the edge collapsing you were in breach. (and the edge is not supported) You were putting yourself and fellow work mates at high risk. Even putting the company at risk of heavy fines or even going under.
Compliance codes (COPs) have been around for many years in all states, including NSW. They are developed by highly qualified and experienced professionals. (not blokes with a ticket ) The dangers of a collapse happening have been known since the day dot and are very real. And a competent operator would be well aware of this and take appropriate action.
Below is a page out of the current Compliance code for Excavation work free from the Victorian worksafe site. It clearly indicates that working on the edge of a trench with an excavator is not on.
I guess you will come back with some knowall comment but I just expect that.
BTW If that person was an inspector and you tried treating them like that these days you might find yourself in front of the judge. You were lucky.
Yes, things certainly have changed in the time since I gave up operating, and probably not for the better, might I say. Today's "inspectors" would have a nightmare if they saw an excavator hanging from a winch rope over the edge of a near vertical cliff as I descended onto the beach below to do retention work to prevent the cliff being eroded and houses lost. As I descended my feet were braced on the pillars either side of the windscreen to keep me in the seat. Closer to your home I worked an excavator in the Otway ranges on hillsides so steep that the tracks had to be braced against tree stumps to prevent the machine from skating many metres down the hillside into the gully below. If this happened, as it sometimes did, it then was a case of 'walking' the excavator a long, roundabout distance back to the top of the hill, and starting all over! Heavy rain didn't help, but there was no other way of doing the job. And probably a bit dangerous too, as there was nobody else for literally miles, so if there was an accident nobody would have any idea until I didn't arrive back at the yard after work to get more diesel for the next day's work. Ah, the good old days when you were responsible for your own safety, and nobody held your hand. Cheers
Your comment speaks for itself. No care, no responsibility, no idea.
Been Out there as you put it for the past 6 years full time , we obviously travel different roads or maybe your eyeball scales are better then mine .no i think your just another drama queen who likes to incite conflict .
what i believe is totally irrelevant
5 to 10 years from now some of us won't be affected either way . the idea of getting some form of education before being allowed to tow fits in with everything else we do in life ,you want to operate a chainsaw you should have a certificate to say that you have received some instruction to reduce the risk to your self or others, you want to operate a forklift or other equipment you are required to do some form of education or training you want to give financial advice you require some form of qualification .
when motor vehicles came on the scene no requirements or qualification required ,you are now required to take a test written and practical if you wish to drive, if you wish to drive bigger vehicles you have to upgrade you license . that would not necessarily make you a more competent driver but if you break the rules you run the risk of losing your right to drive. ignorance not being an excuse
new drivers are required to keep a log book to record the number of hours they have had under instruction, before they can take a test ,most of us can remember the days of just fronting up, once around the block an we where right to go. times are changing, if towing accidents become an issue i'm sure the authorities will find some way to complicate our lives or more likely those that come after us.
Where would you like to stop? At a "Kettle Boilers Certificate of Proficiency" perhaps?
I would not oppose a test for towing a trailer over, say, 1T because it is so different from car only driving skills and is not intuitive. But I am opposed to testing people for a range of applications simply because some are intrinsically risk adverse and have shares in cotton wool companies.
Now, that is something that I can relate to. Way back in the 1980s I was operating a 30 ton excavator on a site in Central Sydney where we had to maintain the existing facade of a beautiful old building while we demolished every thing behind the facade and excavated for a huge underground capark. Very dangerous work it was, and all was going well until somebody from OH&S or similar turned up on site to tell me that I was operating the excavator incorrectly on the side of the DEEP excavation. According to this clown, always the tracks of the excavator should be parellel with the cliff face because this made the machine "more stable". A spirited "discussion" ensued, during which I told him that he wouldn't know spit from clay, and that the safest way to work on the edge of a cliff was to have the tracks of the machine at right angle to the cliff face so that if the face started to crumble I could simply reverse away from the edge. He wouldn't have a bar of it though, because his little Red Book said otherwise. He had no idea of how to safely do the job, and no experience on machines. An impasse followed until I got back on the machine and continued digging. Weellll, what this fella wasn't going to do to me and the job wasn't worth mentioning. He stormed off the site, got into his car and sped away, never to be seen again. Imagine if the machine operator had been a beginner and had actually heeded this clown's advice. It wouldn't have ended well. Talk about the blind leading the blind. These little Tin Gods may well think that they know it all because they've done a course, and have a certificate, but there is no substitute for common sense and experience. Over the years I have had many similar experiences, but this will do for now. Cheers
Im seriously interested in the specific outcomes you think a tow ed course would achieve. I would also like to know just how a tow ed course would cause a change in behaviour once the driver completes the course. Any course seeking to attain compulsory status would have to to be competency oriented and be eligible for inclusion in the National Core Curriculum that covers TAFE courses, for example.
at least some of the newbies will get some sort of introduction . we must remember that some people who have never towed before will purchase a caravan to go live the dream. some salesman may try and sell them the one that he makes the most money out of whether their tow vehicle is capable or not . will it change their behavior/ attitude i don't know sometime a little bit of knowledge is better than none
truck drivers have different classes of licenses to upgrade one must do a bit of training/assessment with an ACCEDITED trainer ,does that make them a better operator ? as stated previously it use to be once around the block if you didn't hit anything good to go ,your qualified
Cheers OB ;)
at least some of the newbies will get some sort of introduction .
So what? Why have anything if its not going to do something specific as in a stated, material, and measurable outcome.
Too often the requirement to undergo compulsory training and an endorsement barrier test is thrown out there. Nearly always those calls come from those who do not have a clue about what future behavioural change requires in the person getting training. Competency based training starts with a Training Needs Analysis that is directed towards observable, measurable, forward competency in knowledge, skills, and attitudes. Everyone should do a course is just a vacuous statement without necessary detail to support the imposition of such an idea.
If generic training, testing, a driving demonstration, and a license (or endorsement) prevented crashes, then there would be no Road Trauma stats available for State Governments to collect revenue from.
Some time ago I was chastised by another sensitive member of the forum for using bold, coloured script, but it seems such is now acceptable? And in case it was me who was being referenced by the pathetic comment about the semi and the Toyota both being overweight, I would like it to be known that neither my Roadtrain, at waaaay over 100 ton, nor my Landcruiser and van, at 6800kg is overweight. All legal, all safe, all insured. Cheers
P.S VDJ79R. Nothing compares or competes.
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 06:05:17 PM
Yep, pretty much what I'm thinking.
Although it's obvious to most some vans are waaay over weight I think that from a safety point of view a few kg over is of little consequence. Laws and regulations regarding this type of issue ALWAYS have a very significant safety margin built in.
For example, under test conditions forklift tynes must be able of lifting, without deformation 2.5 times what they are rated.
These requirements in the form of AS/NZS standards are written by qualified people on panels. Laws and regulations are normally written in a similar manner then passed through the houses, or signed off by the relevant ministers.
Policing, if enough die, they will change the regulations if required and start more aggressive compliance checks or insist on training. Unfortunately, little if any accurate data is freely available specific to vans and the road toll.
And I certainly would not rely on any info in that regard on any forum.
what would you suggest ?
if what we have has a few short falls then something must be altered
And let me assure you that your pathetic comment about Tritons was completely unnecessary. And a pathetic attempt of baiting me. BTW My Triton (bloody great ute) and van are compliant.
Let's face it, no qualifications are required to bait people. Any pathetic individual can do it. Because it's simple.
Cheers OB ;)
Great to see that you have your car and van compliant. Did you perhaps take the advice that I selflessly offered during our friendly correspondence nearly 3 years ago? Details below to assist your apparently selective memory.Cheers
No disrespect but it is a simple reality.
A tow ed course is comprehensive offering weight information, theoretical and practical towing situations, skid pan training, reversing techniques, sudden avoidance techniques, just to mention a few.
A few years back we decided to offer a free TowEd course with every new van sold...an innovation we thought. Wrong! Less than 10% cashed in their free voucher!
There can be no argument against educating people who obviously need it!
Great post, Montie, with lots of good advice and common sense suggestions. As well as making it compulsory that drivers be able to reverse,using mirrors, through 90 degrees on the "blind" side, into a parking space, they should also be able to show a basic understanding of how to safely load a van, particularly keeping weight near the middle of the van, not hanging off the rear bumper or piled high on the drawbar. And a thorough understanding of rear axle loadings should a prerequisite. But it'll never happen because, to too many, ignorance is bliss, and is their biggest asset. C'est la vie. Cheers
Yobar, I'm interested. Would you mind posting a copy of that LAW? That is news to me and would put just about every van in the country off the road. Or am I missing something? Pls educate me mate.
Cheers OB ;)
I was just thinking,"do I know anybody with a caravan or motorhome" that actually is wandering around western Queensland overloaded.
Myself, a no
My brother, a no.
My sister, a no.
Close friends by 6, no but the plumder friend gets close to being overloaded, he gets free nights in caravan parks with his tools, it is ok, most times no water on board and he close on his weights.
Close friends x 2 with motorhomes, a big no.
Interstate friends x 3, a no.
People we have enjoyed there company while on the road at camps in the last 3 years, probably 20 caravaners, a no.
I must tell you from following this forum, everytime I see a tinnie on the roof "I think that there overloaded specially if it is a Landcruiser".
I personally don't think it that big a issue and only highlighted by people with very little to do.
Firstly, could I respectfully point out that there are two 'Rs' in Yobarr! Once again, you seem not to have actually READ my post, as currently the law relating to the towing of PIG trailers includes only those trailers that are towed by vehicles with a GVM OVER 4500kg. . As you suggest, the implementation of such a law for ALL towing vehicles would get many (most?) vans off the road, and the sooner the better., in my opinion. We all would be a lot safer. Take Ma and Pa Kettle who I saw a couple of days ago. It is most likely that they didn't understand how tow ratings were given when they hooked up their massive van to their MUX with its apparent 3500kg tow capacity. Yeah, right. The van was a dual axle model, at least 23' long, and seemed to have had non-load sharing suspension. The front was waaay lower than the rear, with high towball weight evidenced by the car's headlights pointing skyward, and the rear axle of the van barely touching the road. Thus, there was little weight on the van's rear axle, meaning that the front van axle was the effective 'pivot' point and the rear overhang being enormous. Think 'YAW,.(Or look it up!) This unit was all over the road, with Pa Kettle hanging on for grim death, white knuckles and a fixed stare straight ahead as the caravan swung wildly around behind him, with yaw of maybe 2 metres. Would have loved to follow him to see how far he got, but turning a 3 trailer Roadtrain around takes a lot of room! Bugger! Cheers
How to hide 3 trailers!
Hi Ralph. And these friends have all weighed the rear axle of their loaded vehicles, have they? And they all were under their axle limits? When I spent time in Western Queensland, around August, September and October last year, many of the caravanners I met and spoke with knew that they were overloaded, while others had no clue. Not exceeding your GVM or your GCM does not necessarily mean you're not overloaded. It's the rear axle of the car that is the problem, with most twin-cabs around 1800-1850kg and the IMO overrated LC200 at a miserable 1950kg. Spare me! Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 09:54:59 PM
I am always happy to discuss or debate any of those opinions.
It is my opinion that this forum has become a pissing contest between a small number of members to the detriment of the forum generally.
Admin you have a decision to make.
A heavy vehicle is one that has a GVM of 4500kg or more. Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 10:31:56 PM
-- Edited by yobarr on Friday 13th of May 2022 10:33:40 PM
Yobarr,
Looking at the problems with dual cabs bending chassis due to overloading, I noticed that all Asian sourced vehicles have the tray, tub extending further beyond the rear axle than the Yank ones eg the Fords, Dodges, Chevs & GMCs. I would guess that it was easier to put heavier weights + a trailer on the unsupported sections of the Asian utes than the American batch.
Maybe because it isn't sensible to apply it to vans.
Wow Yobar, your still trolling me I see. Almost 3 years ago. Great effort. Put your little mind at rest I resolved my problem another way, I now simply carry less water in the van. :)
Ever heard "less is more"
I wasn't going to comment on this but decided some here may think I agree with your actions if I didn't. I don't.
Well, Yobar, actually if your working so close to the edge that there was a danger of the edge collapsing you were in breach. (and the edge is not supported) You were putting yourself and fellow work mates at high risk. Even putting the company at risk of heavy fines or even going under.
Compliance codes (COPs) have been around for many years in all states, including NSW. They are developed by highly qualified and experienced professionals. (not blokes with a ticket ) The dangers of a collapse happening have been known since the day dot and are very real. And a competent operator would be well aware of this and take appropriate action.
Below is a page out of the current Compliance code for Excavation work free from the Victorian worksafe site. It clearly indicates that working on the edge of a trench with an excavator is not on.
I guess you will come back with some knowall comment but I just expect that.
BTW If that person was an inspector and you tried treating them like that these days you might find yourself in front of the judge. You were lucky.
There seems to be some confusion here? Not sure what you mean by "it doesn't apply to vans though does it?". Obviously not. My post referenced the fact that, if a PIG trailer is being towed by a heavy vehicle,which is a vehicle with a GVM above 4500kg, then always the weight on the wheels of the tow vehicle must be greater than the weight on the wheels of the PIG trailer, including caravans. This is a safety issue and centres around the need to minimise the chances of the "Tail wagging the Dog", a is a common sense approach. You then asked me to post a copy of the relevant LAW, which I did, even though Mr Google could quickly and easily have helped you! You now say "it doesn't apply to vans though does it?". It doesn't. Surely you understand that this is exactly the point that I have been making on the forum, and that the sooner such a law is enacted that covers ALL tow vehicles the safer we all will be. While we continue to allow dozens of families to run around in their 6000kg GCM buzz-boxes, towing 3500kg vans, we always will have incidents of fish-tailing, and the "Tail wagging the Dog". These are not simply accidents, but the result of physics at work. A PIG trailer (caravan) is one of the most unstable vehicles imaginable, and if it is not loaded correctly and towed by a heavier vehicle, it is an accident looking for a place to happen. Hope this clears some confusion, but as always I am happy to answer any sensible question. Cheers
Yes, things certainly have changed in the time since I gave up operating, and probably not for the better, might I say. Today's "inspectors" would have a nightmare if they saw an excavator hanging from a winch rope over the edge of a near vertical cliff as I descended onto the beach below to do retention work to prevent the cliff being eroded and houses lost. As I descended my feet were braced on the pillars either side of the windscreen to keep me in the seat. Closer to your home I worked an excavator in the Otway ranges on hillsides so steep that the tracks had to be braced against tree stumps to prevent the machine from skating many metres down the hillside into the gully below. If this happened, as it sometimes did, it then was a case of 'walking' the excavator a long, roundabout distance back to the top of the hill, and starting all over! Heavy rain didn't help, but there was no other way of doing the job. And probably a bit dangerous too, as there was nobody else for literally miles, so if there was an accident nobody would have any idea until I didn't arrive back at the yard after work to get more diesel for the next day's work. Ah, the good old days when you were responsible for your own safety, and nobody held your hand. Cheers
Your comment speaks for itself. No care, no responsibility, no idea.