But is it green? Its better than putting diesel in a car, says Edwards, because the constant running rate of the gennie uses the fuel more efficiently than idling and accelerating in a car.
And, it doesnt have complex installation needs.
Its very simple, it works very well and its easy to install, you just drop it off where the roadhouse guy wants it and it starts working, he says.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
08:17 AM Nov 12, 2021
Too many people out there looking for problems. I had this in a very large company I worked for.
First EV to visit all States around Australia unsupported & across the Nullarbor was 2018. As each month goes by it's getting easier.
People are just getting on with it.
In our block of Units each Unit had 3 phase 22kW instantaneous hot water systems & another two IHWS in the common laundry, 17 in total. Over the years a lot of owners have replaced these with tanks.
So instead of a whole pile of showers firing up in the morning in one go there will be capacity to charge cars.
Also the charging will be smart networked. If you don't need the power urgently you will get it at a cheaper rate when there is spare capacity.
Us fortunate garage owners have all installed 3 phase in our garages, $500ea for the additional wiring, & we have factored in a common charging area for the other residents when the need arises. We did this in 2016.
Rob Driver said
09:08 AM Nov 12, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Rob Driver wrote:
Trucks and machinery will raise many other problems when these heavy units will need to be changed.
Long distant travel and long hour shifts with machinery will be interesting with battery life and time to charge. Again, massive costs for infrastructure to quickly charge these vehicles.
Long distance and heavy vehicles will use hydrogen which is turned to electricity using a fuel cell. Drive will still be all electric.
Same will apply to trains, ships and aeroplanes.
Fill the hydrogen tank just like you fill an LPG powered car.
Already on the road in Switzerland. The first fleet (120 busses) in Australia next year. Mining haul trucks soon.
"Our hydrogen fuel cell electric buses will have roughly the same range [as a diesel bus], it'll take about 10 minutes to fuel a bus, and it'll have about 800 kilometres in range."
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Thursday 11th of November 2021 11:54:13 PM
Some good info there Peter,
it is a great move by those in Emerald to take up and test how it may all work. Lets hope that there are more operators that are prepared to give it a go. All options need to be proven in operation and have support infrastructure in place
With the introduction of this new technology my thoughts are that any old trucks and machinery etc and including cars will have no resale value.
The disposal of old technology equipment may raise a huge problem considering it has been rendered useless in its current life and the size of some of this equipment might pose a huge environmental problem with its disposal.
Many company accountants would be considering a change to this new green power to be a money saving exercise with its operational costs rather than their heart felt responsibility to have met a target set by an overseas countries that have no real idea of how things work (so far) in Australia. In our present economic climate and with predicted future costs for companies operating trucks and equipment would I be correct in saying this?
Rob Driver said
09:25 AM Nov 12, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
Too many people out there looking for problems. I had this in a very large company I worked for.
First EV to visit all States around Australia unsupported & across the Nullarbor was 2018. As each month goes by it's getting easier.
People are just getting on with it.
In our block of Units each Unit had 3 phase 22kW instantaneous hot water systems & another two IHWS in the common laundry, 17 in total. Over the years a lot of owners have replaced these with tanks.
So instead of a whole pile of showers firing up in the morning in one go there will be capacity to charge cars.
Also the charging will be smart networked. If you don't need the power urgently you will get it at a cheaper rate when there is spare capacity.
Us fortunate garage owners have all installed 3 phase in our garages, $500ea for the additional wiring, & we have factored in a common charging area for the other residents when the need arises. We did this in 2016.
I dont think that there are people out there looking for problems.
You obviously did not read the above text.
A spokesperson from Toyota advised a senate committee that in most communities throughout the world there wont exist the infrastructure to be able to supply the electricity required for charging vehicles.
While your block of units may have considered the on site upgrade in anticipation, the reality according to the report is that there wont be the infrastructure to be able to supply the power.
At a personal level solar may suffice on a sunny day, wind power is not something that can be harnessed on a personal level unless you own a farm, the current power stations in most cases wont handle the load and they aren't green anyway, so their use to charge your car will negate any gain that you may think you will have in buying and operating an electric vehicle.
To quote the quote from the bottom of the document.
YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING REALITY!
Peter_n_Margaret said
09:56 AM Nov 12, 2021
The availability of renewable power will change very rapidly. Unlike traditional power stations, new capacity can be built VERY fast. You could order a new EV today and have 10kW of new solar on your roof before the new car was delivered.
Even now, SA is switching off solar and wind regularly because the supply exceeds the demand.
What we need is pumped hydro storage to be built faster to balance the grid in times of shortage. Snowy 2 is just that, and there are others available and coming too, but we need lots more.
In the mean time, it won't take long for charging to be made available in car parks so people can charge while shopping or at work during the day.
These things have a habit of working themselves out fairly seamlessly.
Cheers,
Peter
Rob Driver said
10:19 AM Nov 12, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
The availability of renewable power will change very rapidly. Unlike traditional power stations, new capacity can be built VERY fast. You could order a new EV today and have 10kW of new solar on your roof before the new car was delivered. Even now, SA is switching off solar and wind regularly because the supply exceeds the demand. What we need is pumped hydro storage to be built faster to balance the grid in times of shortage. Snowy 2 is just that, and there are others available and coming too, but we need lots more. In the mean time, it won't take long for charging to be made available in car parks so people can charge while shopping or at work during the day. These things have a habit of working themselves out fairly seamlessly. Cheers, Peter
Hi Peter,
SA switching off solar and wind in my mind is irresponsible if we are to meet the expectations of others overseas.
In reality SA cant store their claimed excess. This will be an ongoing problem. We need a *bigger battery.*
In recent times it has been indicated on here and in other media that the SA power costs are much higher than most of the other states. Maybe they should sell it interstate.
While it is a great idea to have electricity bowsers ( we will come up with another word ) in carparks the spokesman for Toyota is advising that many countries just do not have the ability to provide that commodity in the volume the world will require.
To jump in without covering all the possibilities for both success and failure will result in the exercise costing someone a lot of money. In our case in Aus it will unfortunately be the taxpayer.
Because of the decline in the use of fossil fuels being petrol and diesel, that price will increase substantially and electricity prices will substantially increase as well with the need to build massive infrastructure to generate, store and transmit power.
My views and thoughts are that, by all means investigate develop and introduce electric vehicles and other options to supplement our endeavour to meet a
*green* tag but if we try to do it in a time frame that is presently unachievable will be at our own peril in Australia.
Whenarewethere said
10:28 AM Nov 12, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
it won't take long for charging to be made available in car parks so people can charge while shopping or at work during the day.
>2020s off-peak.
Plug the car in at night to earn revenue from the grid.
PeterInSa said
10:29 AM Nov 12, 2021
Discussing EV's with a Canadian Friend his comment......Over here the cost of insurance for an EV is over $4,000 per year ...that's a lotta $. This year we paid about $500 for insurance for our Pacifica SUV..
Wonder what will be the Insurance cost of Hydrogen Fueled Vehicles
Peter_n_Margaret said
10:51 AM Nov 12, 2021
Rob Driver wrote:
Hi Peter,
SA switching off solar and wind in my mind is irresponsible if we are to meet the expectations of others overseas.
In reality SA cant store their claimed excess. This will be an ongoing problem. We need a *bigger battery.*
SA do send power over the border when they can.
Interesting aside.... SA's "big battery" has been paid for by Victoria :)
At times of power shortages the spot price for power skyrockets for short periods. That is when SA instantly feeds power to Victoria from the battery, before Victoria can crank up a power station.
But batteries will never provide the bulk storage required. That is a job for pumped hydro.
And another change that we will see will help. Instead of trying to match output to demand, we will match demand with output. If there is excess renewable power available we will turn on a load, like the desal plant and make water.
Just need different thinking and all the "perceived" problems will not eventuate.
Cheers,
Peter
Buzz Lightbulb said
04:13 PM Nov 12, 2021
These same old arguments would have been used when cars were replacing horses and carriages. Some people are just too old to change.
And yes Mike, I would gladly pay a tax to help climate change but not while my taxes are also being used to subsidies super rich people and the companies that produce climate change. Oh yeah, if the money spent on those subsidies was used for green initatives, then we wouldn't have to pay extra taxes.
Peter_n_Margaret said
05:27 PM Nov 12, 2021
Several States have already established a road tax to start for EVs in a few years.
2.5c per km.
Not much in the scheme of things (compared with fuel tax) and they will still be a mile cheaper to run than an ICE and almost no maintenance required.
Cheers,
Peter
Rob Driver said
10:55 AM Nov 13, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
Several States have already established a road tax to start for EVs in a few years. 2.5c per km. Not much in the scheme of things (compared with fuel tax) and they will still be a mile cheaper to run than an ICE and almost no maintenance required. Cheers, Peter
Hi Peter,
I indicated my thoughts on this in another post.
this is what I said:
*100 kilometres traveled by a vehicle on a road requires the same road maintenance wether it is running on petrol, electricity, or processed urine.
It wont matter how economical Mr Manufacturer will make these vehicles run, the simple fact is for ever 100 kilometres, the govt responsible for maintenance of the road infrastructure will want, demand, and charge the required amount and that amount is called Tax.*
With reference to your 2.5 cents tax I also made mention in the other post of the govt slug that so many of us experienced in Australia when operating an LPG fuelled vehicle.
The use of LPG was promoted on so many levels as being a clean alternative ( was the green word around then, I don't think so). But low and behold, in one swoop the price of LPG copped a tax to cover a shortfall. Maybe we should call it a * designed shortfall* which made the use of an LPG vehicle extremely attractive. It was so attractive that some vehicle manufacturers actually made dedicated and switched alternative options so as to take advantage of the lower price of the LPG.
Your mention of the existence of a 2.5 cents per kilometre sounds, and probably is cheap.
If this figure is maintained, how is it collected. The collection of road tax was unmanageable in the 1940s in Australia. It would be impossible now.
Will this 2.5cents be calculated into the price of the electricity to power cars and based on the vehicles fuel use and if so how is this collected from the home user as opposed to a bowser situation where a retailer is made responsible for the dispensing and collection of all monies including government taxes.
And then comes the crunch, at what point in numbers does a government then decide to apply a tax which is actually commensurate with the cost of the maintenance of the infrastructure of its roads.
The next generation will need to be hanging on pretty tightly when the electric car that in good faith was to*save the world*, but all its introduction has done is to create a financial nightmare for our grandchildren.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Saturday 13th of November 2021 10:56:50 AM
Peter_n_Margaret said
11:16 AM Nov 13, 2021
"Your mention of the existence of a 2.5 cents per kilometre sounds, and probably is cheap.
If this figure is maintained, how is it collected." Collected at the time of registration. NZ has used a system like this for diesel for many years.
Owners of diesel-powered vehicles (and other fuels that aren't taxed at the pump) contribute differently through Road User Charges. The main way these vehicle users are charged for road use is according to how many kilometres they travel, and the type and weight of the vehicle. They pay a set amount for every 1,000 kilometres travelled.
Cheers, Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Saturday 13th of November 2021 11:19:14 AM
peter67 said
11:23 AM Nov 13, 2021
Well said.
Buzz Lightbulb said
11:41 AM Nov 13, 2021
The damage done to roads is mostly by heavy vehicles and lack of maintenance. Back in the 90's, it was said by the NSW RTA, that one truck does the same damage as 10,000 cars.
Rob Driver said
12:05 PM Nov 13, 2021
Peter,
NZ has managed road tax like that for years. I was aware but only though it was applicable to trucks.
So simple but,
In Australia we have a collection of several states.
Those states have been and to my knowledge still are basically responsible for road infrastructure maintenance. Not withstanding that for many projects of new construction, the Federal government puts its hand in its pocket generally with a percentage which the value of such has to be met by the states. This system is not etched in stone.
In the 1940s this method did not work in Australia, thus the introduction of the IS (interstate) plates. Due to massive complications in operation this system has now been proven generally not to work and the road tax is collected in the cost of the fuel. The problems are too many to go into here.
Mind you though, our government never lets a chance go by to grab a handful of tax.
I might suggest when you are talking to a truck owner next time you offer to pay for the registration on his truck and trailers.
This really has nothing to do with this debate apart from indicating that the govt can place a tax on anything and for any reason that will pass through parliament.
If this 2.5 cents is not maintained as happened with LPG what will the price be when increased?
Will the electric vehicle suffer the same demise as the LPG vehicle? Obvously some manufacturers put faith in their development only for them to be rendered as expensive to operate as a petrol or diesel vehicle?
Will the owner of the electric car suffer the same fate.?
Rob Driver said
12:21 PM Nov 13, 2021
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
The damage done to roads is mostly by heavy vehicles and lack of maintenance. Back in the 90's, it was said by the NSW RTA, that one truck does the same damage as 10,000 cars.
Yes and without checking your figures as fact a truck does cause a lot of road damage.
The rego costs pf trucks probably go a way to compensate.
When you fill your diesel ute and head off on a big lap you pay exactly the same percentage per litre as the BDouble or any combination for that matter.
When you fill your electric car from home you presently pay the same for power as your neighbour who rides a push bike.
When he gets home after a hard pedal on his bike on a hot day he finds that he is connected to a grid sharing arrangement which negates the use of his airconditioner until the system *catches up*. This might be at 8 pm when he doesn't need his air con. There would be several other situations which would highlight any faults and downfalls in charging and paying for electricity power.
This topic is about the lack of infrastructure that is required to charge and operate electric vehicles.
Toyota and Honda which are reported to be the largest vehicle and engine manufacturer respectively, are advising the US govt that the infrastructure for charging and operating does not exist in most parts of the world.
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:23 PM Nov 13, 2021
The infrastructure for charging will solve itself as the sales of EVs increase.
Commercial reality makes businesses keen to satisfy any need the public has, whether that is for charging stations or hamburgers.
When the Stuart Highway was realigned and bituminised, the need for new fuel outlets was recognised instantly and they were built before the road was even complete.
Cheers,
Peter
Rob Driver said
06:36 PM Nov 13, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
The infrastructure for charging will solve itself as the sales of EVs increase.
Cheers, Peter
Peter,
This is not what Toyota and Honda are indicating.
Infrastructure includes the actual power stations or the ability to *make* or generate the power.
Then we need the *poles and wires* don't take this literally.
Then we need the method of storing and carrying this power into retail outlets.
And then we need someone on the Stuart Highway to start selling retail vehicle electricity along with his hamburgers.
Toyota are indicating that this situation is similar all over the world.
I don't think *wishful thinking* will be any solution to the upgrading the infrastructure to accomodate the use of EVs on a large scale in the near future.
Peter_n_Margaret said
07:21 PM Nov 13, 2021
You need a self contained EV charge station in a remote location (or anywhere else?), you can have it "next week".
Not ideal, but no "infrastructure" required. thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/
2 weeks after installing one of these on the Stuart Highway, that servo will order enough solar and batteries to do the job. That might take 2 months to be installed. No infrastructure required.
This is the great beauty of renewable energy. You can install it very quickly and have it very close to where the power is required. No infrastructure required.
I have enough solar on my house for an EV. I almost give it away. Many people are in the same situation. They can all run EVs now without any change to any infrastructure.
Cheers,
Peter
yobarr said
07:24 PM Nov 13, 2021
Peter_n_Margaret wrote:
"Your mention of the existence of a 2.5 cents per kilometre sounds, and probably is cheap.
If this figure is maintained, how is it collected." Collected at the time of registration. NZ has used a system like this for diesel for many years.
Owners of diesel-powered vehicles (and other fuels that aren't taxed at the pump) contribute differently through Road User Charges. The main way these vehicle users are charged for road use is according to how many kilometres they travel, and the type and weight of the vehicle. They pay a set amount for every 1,000 kilometres travelled.
Cheers, Peter
That is correct Peter,but it is not difficult to rort that system by simply winding back the 'Hobo' (hubodometer) that is supposed to measure the kilometres travelled.Don't ask me how I know this,but it happens! Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 13th of November 2021 07:27:02 PM
"That is correct Peter,but it is not difficult to rort that system by simply winding back the 'Hobo' (hubodometer) that is supposed to measure the kilometres travelled.Don't ask me how I know this,but it happens! Cheers "
People drive unregistered vehicles, but they often get caught too.
It is more difficult to mess with modern vehicles that it used to be.
Cheers,
Peter
Whenarewethere said
07:40 PM Nov 13, 2021
yobarr wrote:
it is not difficult to rort that system by simply winding back the 'Hobo' (hubodometer) that is supposed to measure the kilometres travelled.
I tried winding the odometer back on my Land Rover by driving in reverse, but it nevertheless still adds kilometres.
Modern cars!
yobarr said
09:13 PM Nov 13, 2021
Whenarewethere wrote:
yobarr wrote:
it is not difficult to rort that system by simply winding back the 'Hobo' (hubodometer) that is supposed to measure the kilometres travelled.
I tried winding the odometer back on my Land Rover by driving in reverse, but it nevertheless still adds kilometres.
Modern cars!
Hi Jonathan.That too can be sorted if you know the right people.I'm assuming it is digital? Cheers
Whenarewethere said
09:37 PM Nov 13, 2021
Most trips for the last 2 years have been 7 metres to fiddle on the car. 14 in total back into the garage.
1200km for two years for rego the State government has been getting money for jam!
Buzz Lightbulb said
12:47 PM Nov 14, 2021
There are all these discussions about different types of taxes. Road taxes are NOT spent on roads.
The original idea of the GST was that it would replace all taxes. It seemed so simple. Then States refused to faze out different state revenue and certain goods and services were also exempt. Now a bunch of old far¥s are arguing over the poorly implemented tax system.
The important thing is that switching from ICE to EVs is one step to help the future by reducing CO2 emissions.
Peter_n_Margaret said
03:42 PM Nov 14, 2021
Buzz Lightbulb wrote:
The important thing is that switching from ICE to EVs is one step to help the future by reducing CO2 emissions.
Not only that, but they will eventually be cheaper to buy and they are already cheaper to run, with or without an extra road tax, so they are inevitable, like it, or not.
https://thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/
But is it green? Its better than putting diesel in a car, says Edwards, because the constant running rate of the gennie uses the fuel more efficiently than idling and accelerating in a car.
And, it doesnt have complex installation needs.
Its very simple, it works very well and its easy to install, you just drop it off where the roadhouse guy wants it and it starts working, he says.
Cheers,
Peter
Too many people out there looking for problems. I had this in a very large company I worked for.
First EV to visit all States around Australia unsupported & across the Nullarbor was 2018. As each month goes by it's getting easier.
People are just getting on with it.
In our block of Units each Unit had 3 phase 22kW instantaneous hot water systems & another two IHWS in the common laundry, 17 in total. Over the years a lot of owners have replaced these with tanks.
So instead of a whole pile of showers firing up in the morning in one go there will be capacity to charge cars.
Also the charging will be smart networked. If you don't need the power urgently you will get it at a cheaper rate when there is spare capacity.
Us fortunate garage owners have all installed 3 phase in our garages, $500ea for the additional wiring, & we have factored in a common charging area for the other residents when the need arises. We did this in 2016.
Some good info there Peter,
it is a great move by those in Emerald to take up and test how it may all work. Lets hope that there are more operators that are prepared to give it a go. All options need to be proven in operation and have support infrastructure in place
With the introduction of this new technology my thoughts are that any old trucks and machinery etc and including cars will have no resale value.
The disposal of old technology equipment may raise a huge problem considering it has been rendered useless in its current life and the size of some of this equipment might pose a huge environmental problem with its disposal.
Many company accountants would be considering a change to this new green power to be a money saving exercise with its operational costs rather than their heart felt responsibility to have met a target set by an overseas countries that have no real idea of how things work (so far) in Australia. In our present economic climate and with predicted future costs for companies operating trucks and equipment would I be correct in saying this?
I dont think that there are people out there looking for problems.
You obviously did not read the above text.
A spokesperson from Toyota advised a senate committee that in most communities throughout the world there wont exist the infrastructure to be able to supply the electricity required for charging vehicles.
While your block of units may have considered the on site upgrade in anticipation, the reality according to the report is that there wont be the infrastructure to be able to supply the power.
At a personal level solar may suffice on a sunny day, wind power is not something that can be harnessed on a personal level unless you own a farm, the current power stations in most cases wont handle the load and they aren't green anyway, so their use to charge your car will negate any gain that you may think you will have in buying and operating an electric vehicle.
To quote the quote from the bottom of the document.
Even now, SA is switching off solar and wind regularly because the supply exceeds the demand.
What we need is pumped hydro storage to be built faster to balance the grid in times of shortage. Snowy 2 is just that, and there are others available and coming too, but we need lots more.
In the mean time, it won't take long for charging to be made available in car parks so people can charge while shopping or at work during the day.
These things have a habit of working themselves out fairly seamlessly.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi Peter,
SA switching off solar and wind in my mind is irresponsible if we are to meet the expectations of others overseas.
In reality SA cant store their claimed excess. This will be an ongoing problem. We need a *bigger battery.*
In recent times it has been indicated on here and in other media that the SA power costs are much higher than most of the other states. Maybe they should sell it interstate.
While it is a great idea to have electricity bowsers ( we will come up with another word ) in carparks the spokesman for Toyota is advising that many countries just do not have the ability to provide that commodity in the volume the world will require.
To jump in without covering all the possibilities for both success and failure will result in the exercise costing someone a lot of money.
In our case in Aus it will unfortunately be the taxpayer.
Because of the decline in the use of fossil fuels being petrol and diesel, that price will increase substantially and electricity prices will substantially increase as well with the need to build massive infrastructure to generate, store and transmit power.
My views and thoughts are that, by all means investigate develop and introduce electric vehicles and other options to supplement our endeavour to meet a
*green* tag but if we try to do it in a time frame that is presently unachievable will be at our own peril in Australia.
>2020s off-peak.
Plug the car in at night to earn revenue from the grid.
Wonder what will be the Insurance cost of Hydrogen Fueled Vehicles
SA do send power over the border when they can.
Interesting aside.... SA's "big battery" has been paid for by Victoria :)
At times of power shortages the spot price for power skyrockets for short periods. That is when SA instantly feeds power to Victoria from the battery, before Victoria can crank up a power station.
But batteries will never provide the bulk storage required. That is a job for pumped hydro.
And another change that we will see will help. Instead of trying to match output to demand, we will match demand with output. If there is excess renewable power available we will turn on a load, like the desal plant and make water.
Just need different thinking and all the "perceived" problems will not eventuate.
Cheers,
Peter
These same old arguments would have been used when cars were replacing horses and carriages. Some people are just too old to change.
And yes Mike, I would gladly pay a tax to help climate change but not while my taxes are also being used to subsidies super rich people and the companies that produce climate change. Oh yeah, if the money spent on those subsidies was used for green initatives, then we wouldn't have to pay extra taxes.
2.5c per km.
Not much in the scheme of things (compared with fuel tax) and they will still be a mile cheaper to run than an ICE and almost no maintenance required.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi Peter,
I indicated my thoughts on this in another post.
this is what I said:
*100 kilometres traveled by a vehicle on a road requires the same road maintenance wether it is running on petrol, electricity, or processed urine.
It wont matter how economical Mr Manufacturer will make these vehicles run, the simple fact is for ever 100 kilometres, the govt responsible for maintenance of the road infrastructure will want, demand, and charge the required amount and that amount is called Tax.*
With reference to your 2.5 cents tax I also made mention in the other post of the govt slug that so many of us experienced in Australia when operating an LPG fuelled vehicle.
The use of LPG was promoted on so many levels as being a clean alternative ( was the green word around then, I don't think so). But low and behold, in one swoop the price of LPG copped a tax to cover a shortfall. Maybe we should call it a * designed shortfall* which made the use of an LPG vehicle extremely attractive. It was so attractive that some vehicle manufacturers actually made dedicated and switched alternative options so as to take advantage of the lower price of the LPG.
Your mention of the existence of a 2.5 cents per kilometre sounds, and probably is cheap.
If this figure is maintained, how is it collected. The collection of road tax was unmanageable in the 1940s in Australia. It would be impossible now.
Will this 2.5cents be calculated into the price of the electricity to power cars and based on the vehicles fuel use and if so how is this collected from the home user as opposed to a bowser situation where a retailer is made responsible for the dispensing and collection of all monies including government taxes.
And then comes the crunch, at what point in numbers does a government then decide to apply a tax which is actually commensurate with the cost of the maintenance of the infrastructure of its roads.
The next generation will need to be hanging on pretty tightly when the electric car that in good faith was to*save the world*, but all its introduction has done is to create a financial nightmare for our grandchildren.
-- Edited by Rob Driver on Saturday 13th of November 2021 10:56:50 AM
"Your mention of the existence of a 2.5 cents per kilometre sounds, and probably is cheap.
If this figure is maintained, how is it collected."
Collected at the time of registration.
NZ has used a system like this for diesel for many years.
Road User Charges For Petrol, Diesel & Other Fuels | AA New Zealand
Cheers,
Peter
-- Edited by Peter_n_Margaret on Saturday 13th of November 2021 11:19:14 AM
The damage done to roads is mostly by heavy vehicles and lack of maintenance. Back in the 90's, it was said by the NSW RTA, that one truck does the same damage as 10,000 cars.
NZ has managed road tax like that for years. I was aware but only though it was applicable to trucks.
So simple but,
In Australia we have a collection of several states.
Those states have been and to my knowledge still are basically responsible for road infrastructure maintenance. Not withstanding that for many projects of new construction, the Federal government puts its hand in its pocket generally with a percentage which the value of such has to be met by the states. This system is not etched in stone.
In the 1940s this method did not work in Australia, thus the introduction of the IS (interstate) plates. Due to massive complications in operation this system has now been proven generally not to work and the road tax is collected in the cost of the fuel. The problems are too many to go into here.
Mind you though, our government never lets a chance go by to grab a handful of tax.
I might suggest when you are talking to a truck owner next time you offer to pay for the registration on his truck and trailers.
This really has nothing to do with this debate apart from indicating that the govt can place a tax on anything and for any reason that will pass through parliament.
If this 2.5 cents is not maintained as happened with LPG what will the price be when increased?
Will the electric vehicle suffer the same demise as the LPG vehicle? Obvously some manufacturers put faith in their development only for them to be rendered as expensive to operate as a petrol or diesel vehicle?
Will the owner of the electric car suffer the same fate.?
Yes and without checking your figures as fact a truck does cause a lot of road damage.
The rego costs pf trucks probably go a way to compensate.
When you fill your diesel ute and head off on a big lap you pay exactly the same percentage per litre as the BDouble or any combination for that matter.
When you fill your electric car from home you presently pay the same for power as your neighbour who rides a push bike.
When he gets home after a hard pedal on his bike on a hot day he finds that he is connected to a grid sharing arrangement which negates the use of his airconditioner until the system *catches up*. This might be at 8 pm when he doesn't need his air con.
There would be several other situations which would highlight any faults and downfalls in charging and paying for electricity power.
This topic is about the lack of infrastructure that is required to charge and operate electric vehicles.
Toyota and Honda which are reported to be the largest vehicle and engine manufacturer respectively, are advising the US govt that the infrastructure for charging and operating does not exist in most parts of the world.
Commercial reality makes businesses keen to satisfy any need the public has, whether that is for charging stations or hamburgers.
When the Stuart Highway was realigned and bituminised, the need for new fuel outlets was recognised instantly and they were built before the road was even complete.
Cheers,
Peter
Peter,
This is not what Toyota and Honda are indicating.
Infrastructure includes the actual power stations or the ability to *make* or generate the power.
Then we need the *poles and wires* don't take this literally.
Then we need the method of storing and carrying this power into retail outlets.
And then we need someone on the Stuart Highway to start selling retail vehicle electricity along with his hamburgers.
Toyota are indicating that this situation is similar all over the world.
I don't think *wishful thinking* will be any solution to the upgrading the infrastructure to accomodate the use of EVs on a large scale in the near future.
Not ideal, but no "infrastructure" required.
thedriven.io/2018/12/14/diesel-charge-evs-remote-locations-greener-than-you-think/
2 weeks after installing one of these on the Stuart Highway, that servo will order enough solar and batteries to do the job. That might take 2 months to be installed. No infrastructure required.
This is the great beauty of renewable energy. You can install it very quickly and have it very close to where the power is required. No infrastructure required.
I have enough solar on my house for an EV. I almost give it away. Many people are in the same situation. They can all run EVs now without any change to any infrastructure.
Cheers,
Peter
That is correct Peter,but it is not difficult to rort that system by simply winding back the 'Hobo' (hubodometer) that is supposed to measure the kilometres travelled.Don't ask me how I know this,but it happens! Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Saturday 13th of November 2021 07:27:02 PM
"That is correct Peter,but it is not difficult to rort that system by simply winding back the 'Hobo' (hubodometer) that is supposed to measure the kilometres travelled.Don't ask me how I know this,but it happens! Cheers "
People drive unregistered vehicles, but they often get caught too.
It is more difficult to mess with modern vehicles that it used to be.
Cheers,
Peter
I tried winding the odometer back on my Land Rover by driving in reverse, but it nevertheless still adds kilometres.
Modern cars!
Hi Jonathan.That too can be sorted if you know the right people.I'm assuming it is digital? Cheers
Most trips for the last 2 years have been 7 metres to fiddle on the car. 14 in total back into the garage.
1200km for two years for rego the State government has been getting money for jam!
There are all these discussions about different types of taxes. Road taxes are NOT spent on roads.
The original idea of the GST was that it would replace all taxes. It seemed so simple. Then States refused to faze out different state revenue and certain goods and services were also exempt. Now a bunch of old far¥s are arguing over the poorly implemented tax system.
The important thing is that switching from ICE to EVs is one step to help the future by reducing CO2 emissions.
Not only that, but they will eventually be cheaper to buy and they are already cheaper to run, with or without an extra road tax, so they are inevitable, like it, or not.
Cheers,
Peter