So many times when I hear people lament of how little we manufacture in Australia now I hear them say they don't mind paying a little bit more.
This forum is filled with old Farts like me so who remembers just how much we used to pay for stuff?
One example I remember was buying one of the larger Sidchrome toolbox kits. Spanners, sockets, screwdrivers etc all in a big red box with drawers. I very distinctly remember it cost me a month's wages.
Have a look at what a larger, quality toolkit costs today. Roughly a week's wages.
I bought a "Made in Australia" Stanley tack hammer. (still have it) At a time when I was charging out my labour as a tradesman at $100 a day, I paid $60. What's the going trade charge-out rate now? $60 to $80 an hour? At $60 x 8 hours = $480 that would mean the equivalent cost today would be $288.
Pay a bit more? Yeah, and the rest.
I'm not saying we should continue to be reliant on overseas manufacturers but the solution is not just a simple, "We should make it here" argument. But times have changed.
I'm reminded of a saying.
"If you think there is an easy answer, chances are you don't understand the question"
Jim
Craig1 said
01:40 PM Dec 7, 2020
"When", I am lucky enough to have mostly Aussie Made tools, shows my age, 1st Sidchrome spanner from around 1960 3/8" x 1/2" open ender. But somehow have acquired other stuff along the way, including some C Cr.p. Whoops , 1/2" x 7/16", most common for early Holdens
-- Edited by Craig1 on Tuesday 8th of December 2020 09:24:28 AM
Tony Bev said
03:19 PM Dec 10, 2020
I still have some hand tools from over 55 years ago, and I think that the steel may have been better, in that era
At the moment there is an ABC live blog, about China
Folks are sending in questions, and experts are giving answers
........ and I think that the steel may have been better, in that era
I recall reading an article some years back. Now, it was a long time ago, and I can't vouch for the accuracy but if it was correct it was explaining that when the UK shut down their steel making facilities they lost the methodology for making what we knew of as Sheffield steel. The process had been lost and umpteen decades later when they tried to start up again, nobody knew how to do it.
Its one of those vague memories so I'm quite prepared for someone to post a link to say its all BS. But if true, and we bought our high-grade machine steel from England, you may be right.
Jim
Possum3 said
02:33 PM Dec 11, 2020
Regarding quality of steel: There are no secret potions and very few variances in methodology of manufacture. Basic differences in "Quality" are mainly the quantity of each individual ingredient and final heat treatments.
We are all aware of the greatest steel company in the World, BHP. Also, Australia's Bradford Kendall Foundries were the best in the World; First Company to cast a military tank body in one piece, BK anvils supplied the World's anvils, Biggest buckets on earthmoving gear.
The basic problems that caused the demise of all the great steel products in Australia was the cost of labour to produce quality that was unable to compete with lesser grade products made in Asia utilising Labour being paid subsistence wages. Similarly the same can be said in America and their giants in steel like Bethlehem.
Whenarewethere said
03:13 PM Dec 11, 2020
Probably the steel industry is a bit like the aluminium industry. I was in it for a couple of decades.
Imported aluminium was never as good as local product. I had a regular problem with failing aluminium. We were blamed & then got the aluminium chemically analysed & it always turned out it was imported & substituted for local aluminium.
When the various smelters were decommissioned. They started with the most expensive ones to run. They were also the smelters producing the highest quality aluminium.
Santa said
08:33 AM Dec 12, 2020
How do we react to this? just a matter of time.
As the Australia-China relationship deteriorates, a $200m PNG 'fishery' deal raises eyebrows
As the Australia-China relationship deteriorates, a $200m PNG 'fishery' deal raises eyebrows
Yes, I read that too.
I wonder if the fish processing facility will soon morph into a Chinese naval base.
Mind you; it would be handy for them because then they could easily drop in on their mates at the Port of Darwin.
Sooner or later we are going to have to *seriously* stand up against the Chinese and the hell with what it costs and the hell with financially interested apologists such as Twiggy Forrest.
Santa said
09:39 AM Dec 13, 2020
As Mike Harding commented, seems to be happening all over the south pacific
Have posted the whole piece from the Australian, you need to be a subscriber to access it.
Beijing making genetically enhanced troops, says US
Chinese soldiers applaud during a military parade at a training base. ?Advanced medical technology ? can manipulate genes to enhance human performance.? Picture: STR/AFP
By Michael Evans
China?s race to produce the super-soldier, a genetically perfected warrior aided by advanced bionic technologies, has caused alarm in the West.
The concept of man and machine working more intimately together has been around for some time, but according to America?s top intelligence chief the Chinese are going further than others have imagined.
He is thought to have been referring to advanced medical technology that can manipulate genes to enhance human performance.
The technique, known as Crispr, has huge potential for correcting genetic defects, but its use for creating a super-soldier veers more towards science fiction.
Mr Ratcliffe did not spell out exactly what he thought the Chinese experiments had involved, but China is known to be engaged in experiments to boost the efficiency of soldiers in battle.
China has tested a carbon-fibre exoskeleton, which reduces strain on the body in high-exertion environments.
The first exoskeletons were delivered last month by the state-owned China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation.
They weigh about 4kg (9lb) and can save 5 to 10 per cent of a soldier?s energy spent walking, climbing and carrying equipment. They may be used by Chinese border troops in the Himalayas, Jane?s Defence Weekly said.
The Pentagon is also researching exoskeleton technologies for military use, and developing ways to improve the interface between human and robot.
Helmets could stimulate the brain to learn new skills more quickly and to relay a soldier?s thoughts.
msg said
12:02 PM Dec 13, 2020
Mike Harding wrote:
Santa wrote:
As the Australia-China relationship deteriorates, a $200m PNG 'fishery' deal raises eyebrows
Yes, I read that too.
I wonder if the fish processing facility will soon morph into a Chinese naval base.
Mind you; it would be handy for them because then they could easily drop in on their mates at the Port of Darwin.
Sooner or later we are going to have to *seriously* stand up against the Chinese and the hell with what it costs and the hell with financially interested apologists such as Twiggy Forrest.
Twiggy Forrest should donate ALL his money and assets back to Australia. Yes, he should be able to invest and make a reasonable profit from that investment and not the obscene amounts he does.
Whenarewethere said
12:17 PM Dec 13, 2020
It would be nice if some of these large companies paid at least a "moral" amount of tax!
' "A pensioner with $1000 in the bank who donates 50 cents to bushfire victims is making a far bigger sacrifice and showing far more generosity than Andrew Forrest." '
It would be nice if some of these large companies paid at least a "moral" amount of tax!
' "A pensioner with $1000 in the bank who donates 50 cents to bushfire victims is making a far bigger sacrifice and showing far more generosity than Andrew Forrest." '
It must also be noted that these large companies employ thousands of "workers" who pay tax on their income.If a company has,say,10,000 employees on the average wage of $89,000,EACH YEAR,that company will have poured $890 million dollars into the economy......a portion of this is tax. Not sure of existing tax structure,but the contribution to the Govt,via income tax,may be around $180 million? This is money that the Govt would not otherwise have available to it.The other $700 million pours back into the economy too,whether it be used to build a house,buy groceries,buy a car or whatever.This obviously then creates employment for builders,farmers,car manufacturers and myriad others. Surely if a company is employing many thousands of people,it matters little that their direct tax contribution is not as large as some would consider to be fair....without that company,10,000 people would be unemployed,and the economy would be $890 million worse off.And Andrew Forrest has no need to show generosity,as,without his companies,the economy would be far worse off.....by many billions of dollars,in fact.Anybody who wants to bleat and moan about how well-off some company directors are is perfectly entitled to risk everything that they own, sacrifice their family time,risk their sanity, and start their own company in opposition. Jealousy is a disease.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 13th of December 2020 07:43:00 PM
Mike Harding said
09:10 PM Dec 13, 2020
Yobarr: I don't care how wonderful any of these large companies or their senior executives are... I just don't want them selling out Australia to China so they can make more money - and I fear that is the prime motive of many of them.
dogbox said
09:00 PM Dec 15, 2020
Mike Harding wrote:
Yobarr: I don't care how wonderful any of these large companies or their senior executives are... I just don't want them selling out Australia to China so they can make more money - and I fear that is the prime motive of many of them.
the chinese have banned aussie coal i would expect the greens would be over the moon ,that is what they wanted "but but but guess what" they still use just as much coal if not more because they use a lower quality coal (more pollution)sourced from other countries. we are(PM) excluded from a summit because we (goverment) won't commit to a certain green house gas levels if we don't wake up soon we may find that the chinese own us lock stock an barrel , it will be an economic invasion . china is becoming a very unreliable trading partner . can't blame twiggy, the chinese have him by the short and curlies he just made a dollar while a dollar was to be made but in his favor he has put some back in to the country and it wouldn't matter how much he put back in it will probably never be enough for some
-- Edited by dogbox on Tuesday 15th of December 2020 09:01:42 PM
Craig1 said
09:23 PM Dec 15, 2020
Maybe we have to declare our High Quality Iron Ore " contaminated" for the short term, cannot be put on a ship
blaze said
10:24 PM Dec 15, 2020
An extra $100 a tonne outa clean it up a bit, that would make it worth pulling outa he ground
cheers
blaze
dogbox said
02:12 PM Dec 16, 2020
Craig1 wrote:
Maybe we have to declare our High Quality Iron Ore " contaminated" for the short term, cannot be put on a ship
that would just hurt us . better to find another market (india comes to mind )
Santa said
08:26 AM Dec 18, 2020
From todays SMH
China shivers as coal ban sparks electricity shortages
Electricity shortages are worsening across China, forcing tens of millions of residents in large cities to ration heating, raising questions about how long Xi Jinping can continue to delay delivery of more than $1bn of Australian coal which feeds the nations power plants and steel mills.
-- Edited by Santa on Friday 18th of December 2020 08:28:05 AM
Mike Harding said
02:13 PM Dec 18, 2020
Santa wrote:
China shivers as coal ban sparks electricity shortages
Best news I've heard in a while.
The Belmont Bear said
08:49 AM Dec 19, 2020
Whenarewethere wrote:
Probably the steel industry is a bit like the aluminium industry. I was in it for a couple of decades.
Imported aluminium was never as good as local product. I had a regular problem with failing aluminium. We were blamed & then got the aluminium chemically analysed & it always turned out it was imported & substituted for local aluminium.
When the various smelters were decommissioned. They started with the most expensive ones to run. They were also the smelters producing the highest quality aluminium.
I haved worked in the aluminium smelting industry here and around the world for nearly 40 years, the only reason that smelters have been shut down is because the technology moves on and it eventually costs more to make it than what it is can be sold for. An example is that Tomago Aluminium (Newcastle) started with 180kA technology in 1983 it is now trying to compete with the newer smelters running a 500kA technology in other words for the same amount of (usually cheaper) labour and utilising a similiar number of cells they can produce more than double the amount of primary metal. The high cost of power and green politics means that no new aluminium smelters will be built in this country and eventually those who are still in existence will also be shut down.
In Newcastle we are experts at losing big industries once known as the industrial and manufacturing capital of the nation we are now lucky if we have enough skills left here to produce a matchbox car. Apparently it makes more political sense to close industries in a staunch Labour city like Newcastle in favour of supporting it in places that have swing seats. Over the years we have lost all of our big industries including the BHP,s first steel works, our shipbuilding industry, our manufacturing industries, our rail industry and repair workshops etc. etc. we are still the biggest coal export port in the world but I guess we all know where that ones going. Lucky we can still export our wine, agricultural products and have both international students and tourists coming here or we would really be feeling the pinch . A sad reflection on the effects of globalisation when your 2 biggest employers in a once thriving industirial hub have become Hunter Health and the Newcastle University.............For those suggesting taking the coal back how do we unload, transport and store the millions of tonnes that are currently in transit. Like other coal ports our infrastructure is built to fill trains , transport it to the port and load the ships.
BB
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Saturday 19th of December 2020 08:49:54 AM
This forum is filled with old Farts like me so who remembers just how much we used to pay for stuff?
One example I remember was buying one of the larger Sidchrome toolbox kits. Spanners, sockets, screwdrivers etc all in a big red box with drawers. I very distinctly remember it cost me a month's wages.
Have a look at what a larger, quality toolkit costs today. Roughly a week's wages.
I bought a "Made in Australia" Stanley tack hammer. (still have it) At a time when I was charging out my labour as a tradesman at $100 a day, I paid $60. What's the going trade charge-out rate now? $60 to $80 an hour? At $60 x 8 hours = $480 that would mean the equivalent cost today would be $288.
Pay a bit more? Yeah, and the rest.
I'm not saying we should continue to be reliant on overseas manufacturers but the solution is not just a simple, "We should make it here" argument. But times have changed.
I'm reminded of a saying.
"If you think there is an easy answer, chances are you don't understand the question"
Jim
"When", I am lucky enough to have mostly Aussie Made tools, shows my age, 1st Sidchrome spanner from around 1960 3/8" x 1/2" open ender. But somehow have acquired other stuff along the way, including some C Cr.p. Whoops , 1/2" x 7/16", most common for early Holdens
-- Edited by Craig1 on Tuesday 8th of December 2020 09:24:28 AM
I still have some hand tools from over 55 years ago, and I think that the steel may have been better, in that era
At the moment there is an ABC live blog, about China
Folks are sending in questions, and experts are giving answers
Link to the live article below
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-10/australia-china-relationship-your-questions-answered/12966642
I recall reading an article some years back. Now, it was a long time ago, and I can't vouch for the accuracy but if it was correct it was explaining that when the UK shut down their steel making facilities they lost the methodology for making what we knew of as Sheffield steel.
The process had been lost and umpteen decades later when they tried to start up again, nobody knew how to do it.
Its one of those vague memories so I'm quite prepared for someone to post a link to say its all BS.
But if true, and we bought our high-grade machine steel from England, you may be right.
Jim
We are all aware of the greatest steel company in the World, BHP. Also, Australia's Bradford Kendall Foundries were the best in the World; First Company to cast a military tank body in one piece, BK anvils supplied the World's anvils, Biggest buckets on earthmoving gear.
The basic problems that caused the demise of all the great steel products in Australia was the cost of labour to produce quality that was unable to compete with lesser grade products made in Asia utilising Labour being paid subsistence wages. Similarly the same can be said in America and their giants in steel like Bethlehem.
Probably the steel industry is a bit like the aluminium industry. I was in it for a couple of decades.
Imported aluminium was never as good as local product. I had a regular problem with failing aluminium. We were blamed & then got the aluminium chemically analysed & it always turned out it was imported & substituted for local aluminium.
When the various smelters were decommissioned. They started with the most expensive ones to run. They were also the smelters producing the highest quality aluminium.
How do we react to this? just a matter of time.
As the Australia-China relationship deteriorates, a $200m PNG 'fishery' deal raises eyebrows
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-12/australia-recognised-threat-png-vulnerability-represents-china/12974846
Yes, a real concern.
Yes, I read that too.
I wonder if the fish processing facility will soon morph into a Chinese naval base.
Mind you; it would be handy for them because then they could easily drop in on their mates at the Port of Darwin.
Sooner or later we are going to have to *seriously* stand up against the Chinese and the hell with what it costs and the hell with financially interested apologists such as Twiggy Forrest.
As Mike Harding commented, seems to be happening all over the south pacific
Have posted the whole piece from the Australian, you need to be a subscriber to access it.
Beijing making genetically enhanced troops, says US
China?s race to produce the super-soldier, a genetically perfected warrior aided by advanced bionic technologies, has caused alarm in the West.
The concept of man and machine working more intimately together has been around for some time, but according to America?s top intelligence chief the Chinese are going further than others have imagined.
?China has even conducted human testing on members of the People?s Liberation Army in hope of developing soldiers with biologically enhanced capabilities,? John Ratcliffe, director of US national intelligence, wrote in The Wall Street Journal.
He is thought to have been referring to advanced medical technology that can manipulate genes to enhance human performance.
The technique, known as Crispr, has huge potential for correcting genetic defects, but its use for creating a super-soldier veers more towards science fiction.
Mr Ratcliffe did not spell out exactly what he thought the Chinese experiments had involved, but China is known to be engaged in experiments to boost the efficiency of soldiers in battle.
China has tested a carbon-fibre exoskeleton, which reduces strain on the body in high-exertion environments.
The first exoskeletons were delivered last month by the state-owned China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation.
They weigh about 4kg (9lb) and can save 5 to 10 per cent of a soldier?s energy spent walking, climbing and carrying equipment. They may be used by Chinese border troops in the Himalayas, Jane?s Defence Weekly said.
The Pentagon is also researching exoskeleton technologies for military use, and developing ways to improve the interface between human and robot.
Helmets could stimulate the brain to learn new skills more quickly and to relay a soldier?s thoughts.
Twiggy Forrest should donate ALL his money and assets back to Australia. Yes, he should be able to invest and make a reasonable profit from that investment and not the obscene amounts he does.
It would be nice if some of these large companies paid at least a "moral" amount of tax!
' "A pensioner with $1000 in the bank who donates 50 cents to bushfire victims is making a far bigger sacrifice and showing far more generosity than Andrew Forrest." '
https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/mining/people-criticise-billionaires-70m-donation-to-the-bushfire-crisis/news-story/98fafe563edb07bab29943f00d24f5e8
It must also be noted that these large companies employ thousands of "workers" who pay tax on their income.If a company has,say,10,000 employees on the average wage of $89,000,EACH YEAR,that company will have poured $890 million dollars into the economy......a portion of this is tax. Not sure of existing tax structure,but the contribution to the Govt,via income tax,may be around $180 million? This is money that the Govt would not otherwise have available to it.The other $700 million pours back into the economy too,whether it be used to build a house,buy groceries,buy a car or whatever.This obviously then creates employment for builders,farmers,car manufacturers and myriad others. Surely if a company is employing many thousands of people,it matters little that their direct tax contribution is not as large as some would consider to be fair....without that company,10,000 people would be unemployed,and the economy would be $890 million worse off.And Andrew Forrest has no need to show generosity,as,without his companies,the economy would be far worse off.....by many billions of dollars,in fact.Anybody who wants to bleat and moan about how well-off some company directors are is perfectly entitled to risk everything that they own, sacrifice their family time,risk their sanity, and start their own company in opposition. Jealousy is a disease.Cheers
-- Edited by yobarr on Sunday 13th of December 2020 07:43:00 PM
Yobarr: I don't care how wonderful any of these large companies or their senior executives are... I just don't want them selling out Australia to China so they can make more money - and I fear that is the prime motive of many of them.
the chinese have banned aussie coal i would expect the greens would be over the moon ,that is what they wanted
"but but but guess what" they still use just as much coal if not more because they use a lower quality coal (more pollution)sourced from other countries. we are(PM) excluded from a summit because we (goverment) won't commit to a certain green house gas levels
if we don't wake up soon we may find that the chinese own us lock stock an barrel , it will be an economic invasion .
china is becoming a very unreliable trading partner . can't blame twiggy, the chinese have him by the short and curlies he just made a dollar while a dollar was to be made but in his favor he has put some back in to the country and it wouldn't matter how much he put back in it will probably never be enough for some
-- Edited by dogbox on Tuesday 15th of December 2020 09:01:42 PM
cheers
blaze
that would just hurt us . better to find another market (india comes to mind )
From todays SMH
China shivers as coal ban sparks electricity shortages
-- Edited by Santa on Friday 18th of December 2020 08:28:05 AM
Best news I've heard in a while.
I haved worked in the aluminium smelting industry here and around the world for nearly 40 years, the only reason that smelters have been shut down is because the technology moves on and it eventually costs more to make it than what it is can be sold for. An example is that Tomago Aluminium (Newcastle) started with 180kA technology in 1983 it is now trying to compete with the newer smelters running a 500kA technology in other words for the same amount of (usually cheaper) labour and utilising a similiar number of cells they can produce more than double the amount of primary metal. The high cost of power and green politics means that no new aluminium smelters will be built in this country and eventually those who are still in existence will also be shut down.
In Newcastle we are experts at losing big industries once known as the industrial and manufacturing capital of the nation we are now lucky if we have enough skills left here to produce a matchbox car. Apparently it makes more political sense to close industries in a staunch Labour city like Newcastle in favour of supporting it in places that have swing seats. Over the years we have lost all of our big industries including the BHP,s first steel works, our shipbuilding industry, our manufacturing industries, our rail industry and repair workshops etc. etc. we are still the biggest coal export port in the world but I guess we all know where that ones going. Lucky we can still export our wine, agricultural products and have both international students and tourists coming here or we would really be feeling the pinch
. A sad reflection on the effects of globalisation when your 2 biggest employers in a once thriving industirial hub have become Hunter Health and the Newcastle University.............For those suggesting taking the coal back how do we unload, transport and store the millions of tonnes that are currently in transit. Like other coal ports our infrastructure is built to fill trains , transport it to the port and load the ships.
BB
-- Edited by The Belmont Bear on Saturday 19th of December 2020 08:49:54 AM