To me the problem has some easy and painless solutions. Move Australia Day to January 01, 1901, the date of federation, and replace the Union Jack with aboriginal insignia. And of course it goes without saying that this country should become a republic.
I also am offended by your statement.
3 Generations of our family have fought and served under that very flag that you despise, The Australian Nation Flag is a representation of our heritage, if you or those who want a different flag to represent us will divide our nation even more, if it is replaced I will not fly it, stand for it, I will continue to fly our current flag, even within my Will when I pass I am to be cremated with my flag.
I fail to understand how becoming a republic is going to make our nation better.
dogbox said
03:35 PM Aug 6, 2020
Brownie 64 wrote:
Enough Said.
unfortunately the label will probably say made in china
The Belmont Bear said
03:37 PM Aug 6, 2020
Grandad5 wrote:
Where did this assumption come from that 26th Jan was anything to do with Captain Cook? I know my memory is fading but I was taught back in school that the date was the day that Governer Phillip raised the British flag declaring Australia a British colony. And a picture of that raising is prominate every Australia Day since.
I totally agree that the date of the Nationality and Citizenship Act of 1948 being enacted is also a very important point, and much more appropriate, but since to the bulk of Australians (I believe) associate the day to be a remembrance of the earlier event, is it now too late to try to change the significance of why the date was chosen?
History is never rewritten once it has been successfully taught for a long period of time, regardless of what new information comes to hand.
Who discovered Australia? Captain Cook! No, there were several others before him. Who discovered North America? Christopher Columbus! Except the Vikings were there a couple of hundred years earlier.
I personally can't see much success likely in now trying to change the original significance of the date. I personally can't see any alternative other than changing the date. Regardless of how appropriate the date may be as has been described here.
Jim
Nice story but -
Captain Cook was looking for the great southern land often referred to as New Holland. After confirming it's existence he landed at Botany Bay on 19th April 1770 and claimed the land in the name of the British sovereign calling it New South Wales.
Arthur Philip stepped ashore in Port Jackson on the 22nd of January 1788 with a party from the naval ship HMS Supply to see if the place was more suitable than Botany Bay for the settlement - the rest of the first fleet remained at anchor in Botany Bay. The picture of the flag raising ceremony at Sydney Cove which is commonly used for comemerating the event was not painted until 1937.
On the 26th January 1788 they raised a British military flag accompanied by musket fire and toasted the health of his majesty and the royal family. Unfortunately only the party from the HMS Supply were actually present and according to reports none of them really thought that it was that important.
On the 7th February 1788 the royal commission that declared the British colony of NSW was read at an official ceremony with all the colonists present including the convict men and women. It was also considered to be the first day that the government of the colony officially commenced.
Australia had been suggested as a name for the continent by Mathew Flinders in a footnote published in 1813 in a book called 'A Voyage To Terra Australis'. He had previously added the name Australia to a chart he drew in 1804 after the circumnavigation of the continent with Bass.
In 1817 Governor Lachlan Macquarie recommended to the British government that the name Australia be adopted to which they agreed.
The 26th January had been celebrated in Sydney as Foundation day on and off since the 1830s it did not become recognised by the other states until 100 years later in the 1930s and it has only been a public holiday since the 1990s.
So the 26th January has nothing to do with Captain Cook's arrival or is it even the day that the colony of NSW was officially declared - it seems the 26th was more a private party involving only the men from the HMS Supply.
BB
Cupie said
10:05 PM Aug 6, 2020
Gundog wrote:
dorian wrote:
To me the problem has some easy and painless solutions. Move Australia Day to January 01, 1901, the date of federation, and replace the Union Jack with aboriginal insignia. And of course it goes without saying that this country should become a republic.
I also am offended by your statement.
3 Generations of our family have fought and served under that very flag that you despise, The Australian Nation Flag is a representation of our heritage, if you or those who want a different flag to represent us will divide our nation even more, if it is replaced I will not fly it, stand for it, I will continue to fly our current flag, even within my Will when I pass I am to be cremated with my flag.
I fail to understand how becoming a republic is going to make our nation better.
I too have some difficulty with the Blue Ensign being characterised as 'The Flag that we fought & died under' or words to that effect. In fact it was almost certainly the Red Ensign or the British Union Jack. I hear no outrage against Pig Iron Bob who unilaterally changed the flag to the Blue Ensign.
Don't know what if any replacement Flag that I would prefer but the Union Jack in the corner does grate a bit on this 1/2 Irish heritage Lefty Republican.
Perhaps a look through the history of the Flag in the enclosed link might shed some light on the subject.
BTW I don't despise the Australian Flag & generations of my Family also have served in the Au Defence Forces. In fact the first of my ancestors to come to Australia was a Member of the NSW (Rum) Corps. He did his bit at The Battle of Vinegar Hill & served his whole working life in the Military.
Having stated my position, I respect the right of others to express strong views to the contrary.
Possum3 said
10:56 PM Aug 6, 2020
On the 3rdSep 1901, following Federation, the Australian National Flag (Blue Ensign) became the official national flag of Australia, and has remained so ever since. At the same time, the Red Ensign became the flag of Merchant Naval Shipping, and has remained so ever since.
The Australian White Ensign (also known as the Australian Naval Ensign or the Royal Australian Navy Ensign) is a naval ensign used by ships of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) from 1967 onwards. From the formation of the RAN until 1967, Australian warships used the British White Ensign as their ensign.
Australia fought as British Forces - During Crimea, Boer, WW1 & WW2. As British/Commonwealth force in Malaya. As United Nations (UN) multinational force in Korea. As Australian Forces in Vietnam.
Craig1 said
09:09 AM Aug 7, 2020
Cupie, did you ever read the book " Vinegar Hill", fiction based on some facts?
jade46 said
09:52 AM Aug 7, 2020
Fact check Cook was not a captain when he discovered Australia but a Lieutenant.
From Google
Was James Cook a captain or lieutenant?
The facts as to his rank are that James Cook was a lieutenant on his first voyage, during which he sailed to Australia on the Endeavour 1768-1771. Next time out (Resolution 1772-1775) he had been promoted to commander.
Gundog said
11:08 AM Aug 7, 2020
dorian wrote:
And of course it goes without saying that this country should become a republic.
Imagine your wish for a republic becomes a reality, then on the day of transision every menber of the Australian Defence Force, would no longer be a member of the ADF and then need to renounce their oath of alligance to the crown, what would become of every Warrant Officer who's rank is a Royal Warrant.
I, (name), swear that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law, as a member of the (insert Royal Australian Navy , Australian Army , or Royal Australian Air Force ) ... and that I will resist her enemies and faithfully discharge my duty according to law. SO HELP ME GOD!
When I made that affirmation in 1967 it still remains, as even after discharge I have never renounced my affirmation.
This is just one small example of many would confront such a change to a Republic.
How do you want your President appointed / elected, do we make it a political appointment of a party hack of the government of the day, or do you elect one like the Yanks. Then what powers do you want to give the President, is he/she a figure head like the GG or do they have some executive powers.
At the last attempt of a Republic even the pollitical parties could not agree on the type of President they wanted, much less than what we the people wanted.
At the end of the day, changing the Flag, our National Day or even becoming a Republic, would it be for the betterment of the people, how would it make their lives better, we have greater problems to worry about rather than appeasing various noisy minorities.
Mike Harding said
11:34 AM Aug 7, 2020
I use to be in favour of a republic until I watched the
fisaco when I decided this country is not yet sufficiently politically mature to fully run its own government.
BAZZA44 said
12:05 PM Aug 7, 2020
No matter who said what or where it was said you can not change the past. Leave it alone.
We should all be getting on with the future and trying to live together.
And leave the flag alone.
Barry
The Belmont Bear said
12:58 PM Aug 7, 2020
jade46 wrote:
Fact check Cook was not a captain when he discovered Australia but a Lieutenant. From Google Was James Cook a captain or lieutenant? The facts as to his rank are that James Cook was a lieutenant on his first voyage, during which he sailed to Australia on the Endeavour 1768-1771. Next time out (Resolution 1772-1775) he had been promoted to commander.
True jade46 he was a Lieutenant at the time of his first voyage, he was promoted to Commander before the start of his second voyage and to the rank of Post Captain at the end of it. When people refer to Captain James Cook they are usually referring to his title rather than his rank at the time of the voyage. He didin't discover Australia, the west coast and Van Diemens Land had already been found by Europeans long before he got here - he actually found the east coast which he claimed for the British sovereign and named it New South Wales. The name Australia was only adopted in 1817 after a recommendation was made to the British crown by Governor Lachlan Macquarie. When people say Cook discovered Australia what do they mean anyhow ? When I was at school I learnt that people like William Dampier, Dirk Hartog and Abel Tasman landed here long before Cook arrived so why aren't those guys credited with discovering "Australia" is it because we still see our history from the British point of view ?
The truth is that the actual discovery of this continent was probably made 60,000 years ago, Europeans only rediscovered it.
Changing our flag is not important to me but I think it's inevitable that one day Australia will become a republic (or at the least we will cut our ties to the British monarchy). Australians with no British heritage will eventually outnumber those who do and those of us who grew up still under their sphere of influence will become less and less each year...
BB
Cupie said
07:50 AM Aug 8, 2020
Mike Harding wrote:
I use to be in favour of a republic until I watched the
fisaco when I decided this country is not yet sufficiently politically mature to fully run its own government.
Thank goodness (almost said God) that we have the British Royal Family & the UK Govt. to help us out. Such a stable & wise mob. LOL
Cupie said
07:51 AM Aug 8, 2020
Craig1 wrote:
Cupie, did you ever read the book " Vinegar Hill", fiction based on some facts?
No I haven't Craig but I'll see if I can locate a copy. Thanks for the heads up.
edit .. Might be a bit harder than I first thought. It seems that thee a few books with that title
-- Edited by Cupie on Saturday 8th of August 2020 07:54:20 AM
Craig1 said
09:08 AM Aug 8, 2020
By Colin Free, ISBN 0 454 00088 X, 1978, Methuen of Australia Publisher
dorian said
09:23 AM Aug 8, 2020
Americans observe Independence Day, not the day that Columbus arrived at the US mainland, or the day that the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock.
The French observe Bastille Day, the day they got rid of their parasitic aristocracy and went on to become an egalitarian republic.
The former Soviet republics and the Balkan nations all appear to have national holidays which celebrate their independence, and that seems to be the common trend in most countries (with the notable exception of Australia).
On 26/1/1788 a ship carrying thieves and prostitutes landed at Sydney Cove. In subsequent years the indigenous people were murdered and dispossessed.
On 1/1/1901 all the "colonies" were unified into a single federation.
Which day is the real Australia Day?
As for the flag, the Union Jack and all that it represents will eventually disappear. That's inevitable. Hopefully I will live to see it. The monarchy is a medieval anachronism whose demise is long overdue. You can't be a proud Australian and a British subject at the same time. That's just absurd. Americans realised this 250 years ago. Wake up Australia.
Wanda said
08:52 AM Aug 9, 2020
Well said Dorian, in particularly your last 3 words regards Ian
Magnarc said
09:25 AM Aug 9, 2020
As a bloke who spent his first 28yrs in the English class system and seen people appointed to positions that they had no qualifications for, simply because they wore the right colour tie, I have to agree with Dorian. At the tender age of 19 in 1956 doing National service, (which I had no problem with) I found myself driving a Daimler armoured car in the Sinai. There was a crew of three, driver, gunner/wireless operator and the car commander, a 2nd Lieutenant from a well known aristocratic family who made their pile from confectionary, who was also the navigator. We were on a three day exercise which entailed making radio contact at different points and times with base.
So there we were, in the middle of the desert three days supply of bully beef, some bread, (which was totally uneatable on the second day) tins of Heinz beans and dried egg powder, which was supposed to be edible but tasted like bird droppings, and a little paraffin cooker for brew ups, at least the tea was ok. Two hours into the second day making our way to another contact point, we stopped for a brew and our car commander after poring over the map for a few minutes says, "I say chaps I think we are lorst" Now, our gunner a terrific bloke who's nickname was Dhobi who was so called because of his infrequent contact with the shower shed, could read a map and compass, after some minutes, he declared the we were some 50 miles adrift of where we should be. We just made it.
I consequently signed on for a further four ended up doing six years and thoroughly enjoyed every minute.
PS The Daimler amoured car was very versatile. It had a fluid flywheel drive and an additional steering wheel for the car commander. It could travel at the same speed in reverse as forwards.Very handy for getting out of sticky situations! but a bit unnerving for the driver who still had to change gears and brake when required even though you couldn't see where you were going!!!
Just sayin.........
Mike Harding said
10:11 AM Aug 9, 2020
Magnarc wrote:our car commander after poring over the map for a few minutes says, "I say chaps I think we are lorst"
Les Hiddins (Bush Tucker Man) use to say:
"The most dangerous thing in the Australian army is an officer with a map".
I dont like his views & that is his opinion, so there you have it , two different opions.
Cant see how that relates to following each other like a flock of sheep?
Click on "Quick reply" then click on "Advanced reply" at the bottom of the reply box. Then "Attach files" .....
Cheers,
Peter
Enough Said.
I also am offended by your statement.
3 Generations of our family have fought and served under that very flag that you despise, The Australian Nation Flag is a representation of our heritage, if you or those who want a different flag to represent us will divide our nation even more, if it is replaced I will not fly it, stand for it, I will continue to fly our current flag, even within my Will when I pass I am to be cremated with my flag.
I fail to understand how becoming a republic is going to make our nation better.
unfortunately the label will probably say made in china
Nice story but -
Captain Cook was looking for the great southern land often referred to as New Holland. After confirming it's existence he landed at Botany Bay on 19th April 1770 and claimed the land in the name of the British sovereign calling it New South Wales.
Arthur Philip stepped ashore in Port Jackson on the 22nd of January 1788 with a party from the naval ship HMS Supply to see if the place was more suitable than Botany Bay for the settlement - the rest of the first fleet remained at anchor in Botany Bay. The picture of the flag raising ceremony at Sydney Cove which is commonly used for comemerating the event was not painted until 1937.
On the 26th January 1788 they raised a British military flag accompanied by musket fire and toasted the health of his majesty and the royal family. Unfortunately only the party from the HMS Supply were actually present and according to reports none of them really thought that it was that important.
On the 7th February 1788 the royal commission that declared the British colony of NSW was read at an official ceremony with all the colonists present including the convict men and women. It was also considered to be the first day that the government of the colony officially commenced.
Australia had been suggested as a name for the continent by Mathew Flinders in a footnote published in 1813 in a book called 'A Voyage To Terra Australis'. He had previously added the name Australia to a chart he drew in 1804 after the circumnavigation of the continent with Bass.
In 1817 Governor Lachlan Macquarie recommended to the British government that the name Australia be adopted to which they agreed.
The 26th January had been celebrated in Sydney as Foundation day on and off since the 1830s it did not become recognised by the other states until 100 years later in the 1930s and it has only been a public holiday since the 1990s.
So the 26th January has nothing to do with Captain Cook's arrival or is it even the day that the colony of NSW was officially declared - it seems the 26th was more a private party involving only the men from the HMS Supply.
BB
I too have some difficulty with the Blue Ensign being characterised as 'The Flag that we fought & died under' or words to that effect. In fact it was almost certainly the Red Ensign or the British Union Jack. I hear no outrage against Pig Iron Bob who unilaterally changed the flag to the Blue Ensign.
Don't know what if any replacement Flag that I would prefer but the Union Jack in the corner does grate a bit on this 1/2 Irish heritage Lefty Republican.
Perhaps a look through the history of the Flag in the enclosed link might shed some light on the subject.
https://www.ausflag.com.au/red_ensign.asp
BTW I don't despise the Australian Flag & generations of my Family also have served in the Au Defence Forces. In fact the first of my ancestors to come to Australia was a Member of the NSW (Rum) Corps. He did his bit at The Battle of Vinegar Hill & served his whole working life in the Military.
Having stated my position, I respect the right of others to express strong views to the contrary.
The Australian White Ensign (also known as the Australian Naval Ensign or the Royal Australian Navy Ensign) is a naval ensign used by ships of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) from 1967 onwards. From the formation of the RAN until 1967, Australian warships used the British White Ensign as their ensign.
Australia fought as British Forces - During Crimea, Boer, WW1 & WW2. As British/Commonwealth force in Malaya. As United Nations (UN) multinational force in Korea. As Australian Forces in Vietnam.
From Google
Was James Cook a captain or lieutenant?
The facts as to his rank are that James Cook was a lieutenant on his first voyage, during which he sailed to Australia on the Endeavour 1768-1771. Next time out (Resolution 1772-1775) he had been promoted to commander.
Imagine your wish for a republic becomes a reality, then on the day of transision every menber of the Australian Defence Force, would no longer be a member of the ADF and then need to renounce their oath of alligance to the crown, what would become of every Warrant Officer who's rank is a Royal Warrant.
I, (name), swear that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law, as a member of the (insert Royal Australian Navy , Australian Army , or Royal Australian Air Force ) ... and that I will resist her enemies and faithfully discharge my duty according to law. SO HELP ME GOD!
When I made that affirmation in 1967 it still remains, as even after discharge I have never renounced my affirmation.
This is just one small example of many would confront such a change to a Republic.
How do you want your President appointed / elected, do we make it a political appointment of a party hack of the government of the day, or do you elect one like the Yanks. Then what powers do you want to give the President, is he/she a figure head like the GG or do they have some executive powers.
At the last attempt of a Republic even the pollitical parties could not agree on the type of President they wanted, much less than what we the people wanted.
At the end of the day, changing the Flag, our National Day or even becoming a Republic, would it be for the betterment of the people, how would it make their lives better, we have greater problems to worry about rather than appeasing various noisy minorities.
I use to be in favour of a republic until I watched the
Rudd - Gillard - Rudd - Abbott - Turnbull - Morrison
fisaco when I decided this country is not yet sufficiently politically mature to fully run its own government.
We should all be getting on with the future and trying to live together.
And leave the flag alone.
Barry
True jade46 he was a Lieutenant at the time of his first voyage, he was promoted to Commander before the start of his second voyage and to the rank of Post Captain at the end of it. When people refer to Captain James Cook they are usually referring to his title rather than his rank at the time of the voyage. He didin't discover Australia, the west coast and Van Diemens Land had already been found by Europeans long before he got here - he actually found the east coast which he claimed for the British sovereign and named it New South Wales. The name Australia was only adopted in 1817 after a recommendation was made to the British crown by Governor Lachlan Macquarie. When people say Cook discovered Australia what do they mean anyhow ? When I was at school I learnt that people like William Dampier, Dirk Hartog and Abel Tasman landed here long before Cook arrived so why aren't those guys credited with discovering "Australia" is it because we still see our history from the British point of view ?
The truth is that the actual discovery of this continent was probably made 60,000 years ago, Europeans only rediscovered it.
Changing our flag is not important to me but I think it's inevitable that one day Australia will become a republic (or at the least we will cut our ties to the British monarchy). Australians with no British heritage will eventually outnumber those who do and those of us who grew up still under their sphere of influence will become less and less each year...
BB
Thank goodness (almost said God) that we have the British Royal Family & the UK Govt. to help us out. Such a stable & wise mob. LOL
No I haven't Craig but I'll see if I can locate a copy. Thanks for the heads up.
edit .. Might be a bit harder than I first thought. It seems that thee a few books with that title
-- Edited by Cupie on Saturday 8th of August 2020 07:54:20 AM
The French observe Bastille Day, the day they got rid of their parasitic aristocracy and went on to become an egalitarian republic.
The former Soviet republics and the Balkan nations all appear to have national holidays which celebrate their independence, and that seems to be the common trend in most countries (with the notable exception of Australia).
On 26/1/1788 a ship carrying thieves and prostitutes landed at Sydney Cove. In subsequent years the indigenous people were murdered and dispossessed.
On 1/1/1901 all the "colonies" were unified into a single federation.
Which day is the real Australia Day?
As for the flag, the Union Jack and all that it represents will eventually disappear. That's inevitable. Hopefully I will live to see it. The monarchy is a medieval anachronism whose demise is long overdue. You can't be a proud Australian and a British subject at the same time. That's just absurd. Americans realised this 250 years ago. Wake up Australia.
Well said Dorian, in particularly your last 3 words
regards
Ian
As a bloke who spent his first 28yrs in the English class system and seen people appointed to positions that they had no qualifications for, simply because they wore the right colour tie, I have to agree with Dorian. At the tender age of 19 in 1956 doing National service, (which I had no problem with) I found myself driving a Daimler armoured car in the Sinai. There was a crew of three, driver, gunner/wireless operator and the car commander, a 2nd Lieutenant from a well known aristocratic family who made their pile from confectionary, who was also the navigator. We were on a three day exercise which entailed making radio contact at different points and times with base.
So there we were, in the middle of the desert three days supply of bully beef, some bread, (which was totally uneatable on the second day) tins of Heinz beans and dried egg powder, which was supposed to be edible but tasted like bird droppings, and a little paraffin cooker for brew ups, at least the tea was ok. Two hours into the second day making our way to another contact point, we stopped for a brew and our car commander after poring over the map for a few minutes says, "I say chaps I think we are lorst" Now, our gunner a terrific bloke who's nickname was Dhobi who was so called because of his infrequent contact with the shower shed, could read a map and compass, after some minutes, he declared the we were some 50 miles adrift of where we should be. We just made it.
I consequently signed on for a further four ended up doing six years and thoroughly enjoyed every minute.
PS The Daimler amoured car was very versatile. It had a fluid flywheel drive and an additional steering wheel for the car commander. It could travel at the same speed in reverse as forwards.Very handy for getting out of sticky situations! but a bit unnerving for the driver who still had to change gears and brake when required even though you couldn't see where you were going!!!
Just sayin.........
Les Hiddins (Bush Tucker Man) use to say:
"The most dangerous thing in the Australian army is an officer with a map".