Walter....I sm a bit busy for a while,but I will reply later.The way that car manufacturers justify their towing claims is by showing that their car can tow a DOG trailer up to 4500kg (or whatever)as there is no ball weight (maybe 10kg?) to transfer weight to the  rear axle of the car.A DOG trailer has two or more axles at the front and rear extremities of the load carrying area,with the front axle being steerable.A PIG trailer,as in a caravan,has its axle(s) near to the middle of the load carrying area,wnd is inherently unstable.This will give you something to consider until I have a bit more time.And your flash suspension does nothing but level the car up a bit.Cheers

Again Yobarr, without the knowledge you have I read the specs of the Dodge and for that matter the LR. nowhere does it say a dog trailer. Nowhere can I see load specs other than the max axle loadings. So again I cannot see where you arrive at your figures. Spec for Dodge got from here:
www.ramtrucks.com.au/includes/file/RM6199-RAM1500MY19Specifications_V009_2.pdf. So please point me in the direction of where it says dog trailers.
I am no suspension expert, nor a physics expert, but unless things are clearly visable and written, then I defer to the specs. As I said before if they are telling lies and it cannot tow a normal trailer or caravan of 3.5-4.5T I am sure the more knowledgable would be reporting them to the appropriate authorities. I would hardly call my suspension flash. Many cars now have air suspension as do buses and trucks, so nothing flash about them, just a better ride than old cheap technology.(but probably more reliable????)

HandyWalter wrote:

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Yobarr
I am unsure of how you get weight figures on axles with the car as it stands. I cannot see anything that says the car weighs XXX on the rear axles as it stands. So not sure why you think the rear end can/cannot take the tow ball weight. But I stand corrected if you can provide such figures. Also the LR have air bag suspension with cross axle and front to rear leveling so weight gets transferred by the cars cpu and varies as soon as you hook up and as you drive along. As soon as my car feels the load of my 2.6t van it raises the rear end and lowers the front to compensate. Not sure what its doing but I am told it is covering the weight, and distributing it I guess much like a WDH does, which LR says not to put on their cars. And as for the pissy fuel tank. When I get 14lphk towing and 9lphk, not towing compared to a LC that gets at best 22 and 14 (yes I have a friend who goes with me on some of my trips) its no wonder they need a 130ltr tank!. Distances per tank are almost identical but my saving is 40+ litres of fuel cost! My weight figures are total for the cars and as such the LC is on the limit whereas the LR are not. Not defending the RAM but if they cannot tow 3.5T then why doesnt some one sue them ie ACCC with false advertising? If its as easy to prove as you say then it should be a simple matter to raise this with the suitable authorities.

Hi Walter....in my post at 12.20pm today I told how manufacturers could justify their claims regarding the towing ability of their cars,so I will not repeat that.However,I now will attempt to explain why your car will be overloaded on the rear axle if you connect a 3500kg van with the generally accepted 10% towball weight.(350kg!).A 350kg towball weight adds over 500kg to your cars rear axle weight,with the extra 150kg being removed from the cars front axle.Your tare is 2580kg (+/-) and your maximum front axle load is 1450kg,but that will be a lot less at tare,before any load goes into/onto  the car.I will be very generous,and allow that,at tare,the car has 1300kg (unlikely to be that much) on the front axle,which means that there will be 1280kg on the rear axle.A 350kg ball weight adds 500kg to that axle weight,so we immediately are up to 1780kg......and straight away we have reached a figure only 120kg below our maximum rear axle weight. BUT WAIT.....we still have no fuel (50kg at least),no driver or passengers (225kg for 3?),we have not included the weight of the actual towbar structure,(30kg) or mudflaps etc,and we still have no luggage,(50kg?)spares,tools or beer.You will no doubt see that,unless you want none of the essentials I have listed,the car will very quickly be well over its 1900kg rear axle capacity.As an aside,your flash suspension is designed to give a nice smooth ride,and does little else except make the car look pretty be levelling it up.I hope this helps you,but always I am happy to communicate by PM if you wish? Cheers

HandyWalter wrote:

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Again Yobarr, without the knowledge you have I read the specs of the Dodge and for that matter the LR. nowhere does it say a dog trailer. Nowghere can I see load specs other thanthe max axle loadings. So again I cannot see where you arrive atr your figures. Spec for Dodge got from here:
www.ramtrucks.com.au/includes/file/RM6199-RAM1500MY19Specifications_V009_2.pdf. So please point me in the direction of where it says dog trailers.
I am no suspension expert, nor a physics expert, but unless things are clearly visable and written, then I defer to the specs. As I said before if they are telling lies and it cannot ow a normal trailer or caravan of 3.5-4.5T I am sure the more knowledgable would be reporting them to the appropriate authorities. I would hardle call my suspension flash. Many cars now g=have air suspension as do buses and trucks, so nothing falsh about them, just a better ride than old cheap technology

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 Hi Walter....Thankyou for your supplied link,which confirms all my figures. The Ram tares at 2600kg and has a GVM of 3450kg,so payload is 850kg,on paper.Rear axle weight is over 1000kg at tare,and a 350kg towball weight adds 500kg to that axle,so we now  are up over 1500kg.Add 100kg for fuel,and we are up over 1600kg,but still no driver,no passengers,and nothing in the tray.And this is with only a 3500kg van! I will say again that manufacturers,if challenged,can justify their claims by pointing out that their product can indeed tow the claimed load,but only as a DOG trailer with no/ minimal towball weight.All my comments are based on the generally accepted 10% towball weight.I sort-of know how the towing ability of a vehicle is calculated,but you may wish to access RV books by Collyn Rivers,a recognised expert in weights wnd dynamics,with over 60 years experience.All will become clear! Cheers

blaze wrote:

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I believe the later landrover like disco 3 and 4 and rr sports don't include the towbar weight in their tare, don't know how but believe it to be. Also the towbar yobarr has stated at 30kg is indeed part of the vehicle I believe.
Just my thoughts on the landie, certainly not facts, just how I have read things over the years
cheers
blaze

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 Your post appears contradictory.In the first line you say that you believe that Disco 3 and 4,and RR do not include towbar weight in their tare.Then you say that you believe that towbar stated at 30kg is part of the vehicle? As my good friend Pauline would say.please explain.Or have I missed something? Cheers

yobarr wrote:

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blaze wrote:

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I believe the later landrover like disco 3 and 4 and rr sports don't include the towbar weight in their tare, don't know how but believe it to be. Also the towbar yobarr has stated at 30kg is indeed part of the vehicle I believe.
Just my thoughts on the landie, certainly not facts, just how I have read things over the years
cheers
blaze

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 Your post appears contradictory.In the first line you say that you believe that Disco 3 and 4,and RR do not include towbar weight in their tare.Then you say that you believe that towbar stated at 30kg is part of the vehicle? As my good friend Pauline would say.please explain.Or have I missed something? Cheers

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 no not at all, once the load is applied to the towball it is not add to the tare of the vehicle

the towbar is included in the original tare as its not an added extra

cheers

blaze

blaze wrote:

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yobarr wrote:

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blaze wrote:

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I believe the later landrover like disco 3 and 4 and rr sports don't include the towbar weight in their tare, don't know how but believe it to be. Also the towbar yobarr has stated at 30kg is indeed part of the vehicle I believe.
Just my thoughts on the landie, certainly not facts, just how I have read things over the years
cheers
blaze

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 Your post appears contradictory.In the first line you say that you believe that Disco 3 and 4,and RR do not include towbar weight in their tare.Then you say that you believe that towbar stated at 30kg is part of the vehicle? As my good friend Pauline would say.please explain.Or have I missed something? Cheers

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 no not at all, once the load is applied to the towball it is not add to the tare of the vehiclethe towbar is included in the original tare as its not an added extra.cheers.                                                                                          blaze

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What are you on about? Of course the towball load is not included in the tare,and neither is the towbar in the vast majority of cases.Without thinking too hard,the only car that I am aware of that has a towbar as standad equipment is the Dodge Ram 1500.But who cares......on its own,30kg surely is not going to break the bank? Cheers

HandyWalter wrote:

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Yobarr
I see no 1000kg tare on the rear axle mentioned anywhere. The kerb weight is 2650kg. At best if you assumed an equal split of 50/50 then load on rear axle is now 1325kg. Add 350 kg tow ball and we get 1675kg which is below their weight max of 1770kg. I doubt very much that the tare weight is 50/50 and so there would be less weight over the rear axle. As such by my figures it can tow 3.5t or even more. Also how can a ball weight of 350kg add 500kg to tare??Your figures just dont add up to me

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Walter,have you not been actually reading my posts? On a Dodge Ram 1500 a 350kg towball weight adds between 490kg and 510kg weight to the rear axle,with the extra weight being removed from the front axle and transferred to the rear axle.(Think levers) The formula is quite simple,but I will not bother posting it here.Just think levers.....this is why a vehicle with a short wheelbase has more weight transferred than does a vehicle with a long wheelbase.The ratio of TBO (distance from rear axle to hitch point)  to wheelbase decreases as wheelbase increases,meaning that less extra weight is put on the rear axle as a percentage of the towball weight.On my car,if I put 350kg on the  towball,I add about 480kg to the rear axle,but if we put 350kg on the towball of an LC200,around 530kg goes onto that cars rear axle.The reason is simply that my car has a wheelbase that is 330mm greater than the wheelbase on the LC200.So,using your estimated rear axle load at tare of 1325kg,we add 500kg for transferred towball weight,and instantly we are up to 1825kg....and we still have no fuel,no driver,and nothing in the tray! No matter how much we mess around with numbers and scenarios,the simple fact is that the Dodge Ram cannot safely tow a 3500kg van,assuming 10% towball weight,if it also needs a driver,fuel,and anything at all in the tray.And if you can carry nothing in the tray,why even have a ute? Fact.Please PM me if you would like to discuss further.Cheers

FWIW.... lots of 200 series towing 3 to 3.5t vans legaly... mostly one needs a GVM increase to do so.... not overly complicated..... even with the basic ARB GVM increase to 3650kg which keeps the standard 1950kg rear axle rating.... of course there are plenty of 3800 or 3850 GVM increases available that lift the rear axle max right up to 2150kg. The key thing.... even with Toyotas 6850kg GCM.... is that a Cruiser can weigh 3700kg with a 3500kg van hooked up and weigh 6850 on a weighbridge.... (assuming 10% ball weight becomes part of cruiser payload )

My rear axle weighs about 1900kg without a WDH with a 3.3 or so ton van hooked up... front axle a bit under 1500kg.

My front axle is normally about 1600kg and rear about 1300 when unladen... no bars or winches etc on mine.

I only post this beecause of mis information around the place. Of note... the current 200 series has been around for over 10 years and handles the higher weights without breaking so it seems. 

Bobdown wrote:

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So who tows over 3000 kg and what with, is anyone legal?

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 Hi Bob, I tow 3450 kg when fully loaded on a 3500 kg limit with all axle weights legal, GVM  ATM  GTM  towball weight all under factory specs, weighed with weight distribution hitch disconnected. Weighed with full water tanks and fuel tanks etc.  Tow vehicle Jeep grand cherokee . Towball weight 250 kg, rear axle weight goes up another 130 kg.  All weights done by QLD transport. 

Noelpolar wrote:

FWIW.... lots of 200 series towing 3 to 3.5t vans legaly... mostly one needs a GVM increase to do so.... not overly complicated..... even with the basic ARB GVM increase to 3650kg which keeps the standard 1950kg rear axle rating.... of course there are plenty of 3800 or 3850 GVM increases available that lift the rear axle max right up to 2150kg. The key thing.... even with Toyotas 6850kg GCM.... is that a Cruiser can weigh 3700kg with a 3500kg van hooked up and weigh 6850 on a weighbridge.... (assuming 10% ball weight becomes part of cruiser payload )
My rear axle weighs about 1900kg without a WDH with a 3.3 or so ton van hooked up... front axle a bit under 1500kg.My front axle is normally about 1600kg and rear about 1300 when unladen... no bars or winches etc on mine.I only post this beecause of mis information around the place. Of note... the current 200 series has been around for over 10 years and handles the higher weights without breaking so it seems. 

 Edited by Noelpolar on Wednesday 4th of September 2019 07:58:22 PM

 Hi Noel..i would be interested to know from where you got the information above? I have Lovells documentation that shows that an increase in GVM to 3800kg raises the rear axle capacity to 2000kg,as I have stated before.This is by far the most popular GVM increase for an LC200,although there also is a 4000kg GVM upgrade available that does increase rear axle capacity to 2100kg.The BTC (braked towing capacity) still is only 3500kg,however.If you are silly enough to pay a $million dollars (sic) for an upgrade to tow a 4000kg van,your cars GVM reverts to 3800kg,and we will not even think about the stresses a 1200lb WDH puts on the car! You effectively have a 1200lb stiff-arm running from the rear axle of the car,through the hitch point,to the vans axle group.Spare me! I shudder to think about the stresses on the chassis of both the car and the van when this outfit goes through a dip in the road,or even into a steep servo entrance,when all the weight is carried on only two points...any two.   Interesting that you state that your rear axle weighs about 1300kg when unladen.If you then put a 350kg towball weight on the car,that axle weight immediately rises to 1825kg (1300 plus the 525kg that a 350kg towball applies to the rear axle.) You thus have only 125kg left before you reach your 1950kg axle capacity......and you have no driver,no passengers,no luggage,no tools etc etc.As far as I can determine,there is  no GVM upgrade that increases an LC200s rear axle capacity to 2150kg? Cheers

Rusty W wrote:

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Bobdown wrote:

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So who tows over 3000 kg and what with, is anyone legal?

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 Hi Bob, I tow 3450 kg when fully loaded on a 3500 kg limit with all axle weights legal, GVM  ATM  GTM  towball weight all under factory specs, weighed with weight distribution hitch disconnected. Weighed with full water tanks and fuel tanks etc.  Tow vehicle Jeep grand cherokee . Towball weight 250 kg, rear axle weight goes up another 130 kg.  All weights done by QLD transport. 

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Hi Russell....good to see that you are all legal,and happy,but I suggest that your 7.25% towball weight is a bit low? Anyway,I would like to thank you for pointing out that a 250kg towball weight adds 380kg to your rear axle,as this may help others understand a little more about how weights work.As an aside,a WDH does not change ball weight,so probably not needed if all your axle weights are good? Cheers

HandyWalter wrote:

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Yobarr I still cannot see how 350kg can suddenly become 500Kg. It defies logic

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 Handy, think of a seesaw and your rear axle is the centre pivot point, put a 100 kg weight on one end and it sits on the ground. Now put a 100 kg weight on the other end and the seesaw balances in mid air, where has all the weight gone? it is now sitting on the pivot point or in our case the rear axle. As soon as you put any weight on the second end the pivot point gets extra weight. Put some bathroom scales under the heavy end and read the scale, now put some weight on the other end and read the scale again it will be lighter. 

Hopefully this makes sense.

regards Russell

Rusty W wrote:

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HandyWalter wrote:

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Yobarr I still cannot see how 350kg can suddenly become 500Kg. It defies logic

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 Handy, think of a seesaw and your rear axle is the centre pivot point, put a 100 kg weight on one end and it sits on the ground. Now put a 100 kg weight on the other end and the seesaw balances in mid air, where has all the weight gone? it is now sitting on the pivot point or in our case the rear axle. As soon as you put any weight on the second end the pivot point gets extra weight. Put some bathroom scales under the heavy end and read the scale, now put some weight on the other end and read the scale again it will be lighter. Hopefully this makes sense.regards Russell

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Great description Russell,and we can only hope that it helps Walter,and perhaps others,to understand that if you add weight to one end of a seesaw,(towball) you obviously take weight off the other end,(front axle)and add that weight to the pivot.(rear axle).The amount of weight that is transferred is dependent on both the TBO (distance from rear axle to hitchpoint,or towball) and the wheelbase of the car.The shorter the wheelbase,the greater the weight transfer,which is why the 2850mm wheelbase on the LC200,and excessive TBO,regularly leads to overloading of that axle.The usual GVM upgrades do little to help,as 50kg is neither here nor there,but most people do not understand,thinking they have gained 450-500kg.They have not,if they wish to tow a heavy trailer.Thanks for your explanation.Cheers

Regardles of whether Rusty could get away with not using a WDH or not Jeep advised me that I needed to use one towing over a certain weight. I agree that the towball download may be a little light as our 2.7T van comes in around 180kg with empty water tanks. By filling them up according to the towball scale I increase the down load by 60kg which IMHO makes the rig feel a lot more stable on the road. Thanks Rusty for confirming that you are within spec according to QLD transport (although you didn't say how much load room you had left in the car) using your numbers I should be well under with my GC pulling a 700kg lighter van.

Cheers

BB

The Belmont Bear wrote:

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Regardles of whether Rusty could get away with not using a WDH or not Jeep advised me that I needed to use one towing over a certain weight. I agree that the towball download may be a little light as our 2.7T van comes in around 180kg with empty water tanks. By filling them up according to the towball scale I increase the down load by 60kg which IMHO makes the rig feel a lot more stable on the road. Thanks Rusty for confirming that you are within spec according to QLD transport (although you didn't say how much load room you had left in the car) using your numbers I should be well under with my GC pulling a 700kg lighter van.

Cheers

BB

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 Hi Davo, qld transport would not weigh the car with a WDH fitted, I do use an Andersen WDH and I suspect it takes about 100 kg off by how far it raises the rear when screwed up.

Load space left was  GVM 79 kg. rear axle 18 kg.  GCM  29 kg. With WDH fitted I should have plenty of rear axle load left over. Currently about 3360 ATM

regards Russell

Walter, my jeep also has air suspension controlled by computers to keep it level. My axle weights still changed. I guess you will have to weigh your own vehicle to prove or disprove it for yourself.

regards Russell

HandyWalter wrote:

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Yobarr,
Whilst I accept your rational about see saw effect I will now quote directly from the Land Rover Owners Book. The wording is indentical for the three models I mentioned in my previous post.
Page 92 of my D4 2016.5 owners manual quote:
"When calculating rear axle loading remember that the trailers nose weight, the weight in the vehicles loadspace, the weight on the roof rack, and the weight of the rear seat passengers must all be added together."
Nothing about transferred weight from front to rear. Nothing about weight in the front being transferred.
Page 297 of the owners manual
Weight of vehicle 7 seats 2565kg
GVW= 3240kg
So Difference is 675kg
So on the basis that my car has two passengers (125kg) in the front, no weight in the back other than a tow ball mass of 350kg, then I could theoretically load another 200kgs of luggage in the back. The only exception to this is that some earlier models of D4 with a smaller motor (2.7ltr diesel) said if towing 350kg ball weight, to reduce carrying capacity by 100kg. Note these cars had spring suspension not air. Still well under the limit. This matter has been raised on the LR web site for a long time, and I again asked the questions just to be sure. Clearly if LR was of the opinion that the rear axle load would be exceeded, they would have made it perfectly clear about limits. In fact looking at the specs a D4 with air suspension has a greater rear axle loading of 205kgs over the coils. I am therefore confident that the cars I mentioned can tow a 3.5t van with a ball weight of 350kg. As I said before, I am sure that the air suspension has something to do with why they can, rather than using the physics of a simple see saw which maybe appropriate for a simple suspension that is not controlled by a CPU that is not present in the cars you mention, and which in my opinion and as I have been advised, caters for weight transference much like a WDH. Having spoken to a number of caravan experts and looking on various caravan forums, it was the main reason (not that i tow 3.5t) why I chose the LR over the LC

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Walter,I have had a big day,and tomorrow I am flat-out all day,but I will try on Sunday to reply to your post.You seem not to understand that any weight imposed behind  the rear axle of the car takes weight off the front axle.In the case of having a 350kg towball weight,around 150kg comes off the front axle and is transferred to the  cars rear axle.This means 500kg is applied to the rear axle.(150kg + 350kg ball weight).I will say again that your flash suspension does nothing to assist with weight distribution,and serves only to level the car.To give you something to consider,I will remind you that with a 350kg ball weight,150kg comes off the front axle,which in turn reduces your GVM by 150kg,so you are immediately back to 3090kg.At present I am too tired to do calculations,but I would suggest that your eggspurts do a bit more research.Cheers

HandyWalter wrote:

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Yobarr yes I do understand and LR make allowances for it with the 200kg reduction. JLR AUS have assured me that I can tow a 3.5T van as long as I dont put anything in the car other than myself and partner. That includes full fuel tank. They are aware of all the hype of this overhang etc and say following their user manual you will not exceed axle load limit. People on the AULRO site even have letters posted up from JLR saying as such. Thats why a Landrover is better than a Toyota LC200 as they can and will tow legally and within axle weights a 3.5T van. When I asked JLR the question they immediately thought I was thinking of a Toyota and quoted the figures like you do, to explain the difference. When I said no it was questions being raised on a Dodge RAM, they were surprised, but then said they said (jokingly) They eat Utes for Breakfast but they dont eat a LandRover!! You can argue all you like but I am assured by my manual and JLR that the 3 models i mentioned can all tow a 3.5T van, taking into consideration what is mentioned in the user manual. Yes I agree you cannot load much into the D4 (more in a D5 and RR Sport) other than two passengers, but in all other respects it is within axle limits.

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Walter,this is becoming somewhat monotonous.I do not argue,simply state facts in the hope that you can understand,but clearly you can not,or perhaps do not want to? If you have  3150kg GTM (weight on van wheels) behind a lighter car,you are an accident looking for a place to happen.If safety is of any concern the weight on the cars wheels should be 10% (or more) greater than the weight on the vans wheels.Clearly this is impossible with your Landrover.Tomorrow,if I can find time,I will PM you in an effort to help you understand,as clearly you are lost.Cheers

Rusty W wrote:

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Walter, my jeep also has air suspension controlled by computers to keep it level. My axle weights still changed. I guess you will have to weigh your own vehicle to prove or disprove it for yourself.regards Russell

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 Hi Russell....Thanks for this post.Of course the weights change,as all an air suspension does is level the vehicle up,but it seems that some people just do not understand simple physics? Cheers

Rusty Your air suspension is a simple up or down. Landrover has that as well as cross axle and front and rear independence. Ie yours just has all up or all down (and a few levels inbetween. Landrovers is far more complex.
Yobarrr no need to PM me . I know your wrong in regards to LR as most people do not understand how Landrover suspension operates. It is quite clearly written in my manual and in letters from JLR Aus that I can tow a 3.5T van with a ball weight of 350kg and not exceed axle limits. All I know is I cannot have much weight other than 2 passengers in the car and I am satisfied with that. I am told by many that people do not understand the LR weights, carrying loads and, cannot read the user manual properly. I can only assume you fall into that category. My comments are not meant with any malice just that I have quoted from the books and you seem to want to challenge what has been clearly written.

Sorry edited my mistake in ball weight!, I would have thought those reading would have realised I did a typo.

HandyWalter wrote:

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Rusty Your air suspension is a simple up or down. Landrover has that as well as cross axle and front and rear independence. Ie yours just has all up or all down (and a few levels inbetween. Landrovers is far more complex.
Yobarrr no need to PM me . I know your wrong in regards to LR as most people do not understand how Landrover suspension operates. It is quite clearly written in my manual and in letters from JLR Aus that I can tow a 3.5T van with a ball weight of 3.5kg, and not exceed axle limits. All I know is I cannot have much weight other than 2 passengers in the car and I am satisfied with that. I am told by many that people do not understand the LR weights, carrying loads and, cannot read the user manual properly. I can only assume you fall into that category. My comments are not meant with any malice just that I have quoted from the books and you seem to want to challenge what has been clearly written.

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Walter,with respect,you are dreaming.If you could please send me details of the exact model of  your car I am happy to help you,but I will tell you for free that you have zip,zero,nil,nada chance of safely towing a 3500kg caravan.I am happy to discuss,but I will iterate that there is  absolutely no chance of your car towing 3500kg safely and legally.ALWAYS  your car should be at least 10% heavier than your car,and the LR will not get within cooee of that.Cheers

HandyWalter wrote:

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I can tow a 3.5T van with a ball weight of 3.5kg, and not exceed axle limits.

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 Walter,I must apologise.I did not realise that you were running such a low ball weight! Your ball weight would transfer about  5kg to the cars rear axle.Although severely limited in their abilties,a LR could probably cope with that? ... but let us not discuss safety as I suspect that the ball weight is a little less than the generally accepted 10%? The car also is probably less than 10% heavier than the van,so even more safety issues.You could always buy a 79? No such problems.Cheers.

blaze wrote:

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your a lost talent yobarr, you could be making millions of dollars designing tow vehicles and caravans
cheers
blaze

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 Thank you for your kind thoughts......it seems that at least someone understands? Cheers