I read the other day that Toyota Hilux will have an electric Ute in 5 years and Great Wall are showing a 4x4 one soon.
I said this somewhere recently that I can see the day that the 'roof' of an electric car will be a Solar Panel charging the electrical system. That will help with going up the middle and around the playground. NO stopping for charging at charge stations. You could charge by 240v when at home or at a CVP or similar.
I also like the Alternator idea Ron.
I was in a electric Taxi about 5 weeks ago in Canberra and the Jury is still out as if I liked it or not. Something didn't feel right, maybe that should be sound right.
keep Safe on the roads and out there.
The taxis I have observed and travelled in are Toyota hybrids, electric motor drive via a very small battery pack with a fixed speed petrol engine generator.
Can travel about 25 kms on battery energy and when more power is needed the generator automatically cuts in.
And I have not heard a complaint about the hybrid technology, they can also be recharged from 240v.
However, this is worrying when thinking about a large fleet of EV in Australia being favoured;
EV ownership in Australia is only 1 car in 4,000 of all our cars on the road. Yet already they are causing streets to go black, and possibly blowing transformers which need replacing more often:
Its a crisis that has been concealed from the vast majority of the population The danger really came home to me when I met up with an affluent, long-time Melbourne acquaintance who lives in a street where there are six Tesla cars. When they all try to charge their batteries at the same time, the power goes out in the street because the grid fails. Sometimes it fails when only three or four of them try to charge at the same time.
Australians only own 5,000 EVs at present. Imagine the fun when 500,000 new EVs hit the streets in 2030, and again in 2031, 2032,.
He talks about intermittent power causing choppy electron flows which make transformers hotter:
Greystone said
12:09 PM Apr 12, 2019
Gotliebsen is not an authority on matters EV and electricity. The Australian is anti renewables, so I consider that fake news. Read what the experts say instead.
https://theconversation.com/australias-electricity-grid-can-easily-support-electric-cars-if-we-get-smart-115294?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2012%202019%20-%201283511918&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2012%202019%20-%201283511918+CID_002f2821d7204ff3402b4e5bbc5c4447&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Australias%20electricity%20grid%20can%20easily%20support%20electric%20cars%20%20if%20we%20get%20smart
Whenarewethere said
02:24 PM Apr 12, 2019
Knight wrote:
EV ownership in Australia is only 1 car in 4,000 of all our cars on the road. Yet already they are causing streets to go black, and possibly blowing transformers which need replacing more often:
Its a crisis that has been concealed from the vast majority of the population The danger really came home to me when I met up with an affluent, long-time Melbourne acquaintance who lives in a street where there are six Tesla cars. When they all try to charge their batteries at the same time, the power goes out in the street because the grid fails. Sometimes it fails when only three or four of them try to charge at the same time.
We & the various neighbours had dogs that always would fight with each other. So we all agreed to walk the dogs at different times, easy!
A smart network would charge all the car's at staggered times overnight.
If it was urgent to have your car charged sooner, you move up the list paying extra depending how urgent it is. If it is not urgent you move further down the list.
Basic stuff!
Probably 95% of the time it is not actually that urgent to have your car charged right now!
Knight said
02:33 PM Apr 12, 2019
Please consider Liddell Power Station, Hunter Valley, NSW which AGL own and plan to shut down soon.
Four generator units of 500 MW so 2000 MW of which 95-98% (capacity factor) is available day and night regardless of wind and sun. Coal fired, steam turbine driving each generator.
Capital Wind Farm near ACT 67 wind turbines on 15,000 acres (6,000 hectares) nameplate/installed capacity 140 MW but 30% capacity factor or average output of energy, 42 MW (could be up to 35%).
Bayswater coal fired Power Station not far away from Liddell shares water storage and coal mine. It has four generator units of 660 MW so 2,640 MW.
There are not enough suitable sites in Australia to install the number of wind turbines required to replace all of the coal fired power stations, and solar won't do the job. Indeed last week it was announced that a solar power station planned for Port Augusta with federal and state government contributions cannot find bankers willing to lend the balance of money. Apparently they realised the capacity factor was 16% compared to 30% for wind turbines.
The only so called renewable energy energy producers/generators are hydro water turbine power stations and in Australia there is insufficient water for large scale hydro. Pumped hydro, the water being pumped back up to the holding dam, is not cost effective which is why the Snowy Mountains Scheme dropped that plan. Also, pumping water uphill requires 20-25% of the energy generated.
Pumped hydro and other "batteries" are back up for unreliable wind and solar systems and add to the infrastructure cost and maintenance. In SA the government has diesel generators and gas fired generators as well as the big battery for backing to avoid blackouts when the grid is destabilising when unreliable don't delivery energy. They also draw from Victoria. The result, the highest pricing for electricity of all states. And now another interconnected is to be built, this one to NSW.
It's a huge mess, we are paying world's highest energy prices and our electricity grid is failing.
Time is running out, new High Energy Low Emissions coal fired power stations are the lowest cost option and we have high grade coal. Next would be gas fired as the US is moving to from coal because gas there is cheaper than coal. Our governments and environmentalists are not allowing hydraulic fracturing for coal seam gas and shale seam gas which the US is exploiting. Of course timber is "green energy", apparently, so wood or other plant matter, biomass is renewable. But the most expensive, most sensible solution would be nuclear power stations. Not necessarily big ones but many small ones using our vast uranium reserves.
The transition to renewables is a get quick rich scheme for investors supported by governments and assisted by penalising coal fired power stations. When you hear that 50 years is the end of their working life ignore it. That is the accounting write off period, they can when maintained operate for 80 or more years. Victoria's Hazlewood Power Station closed despite the operator holding a lease for another couple of decades and a contract for brown coal supplies. The hidden emissions abatement federal legislation (that could be applied to liquid fossil fuel) eats into profit and then the VicGov raised brown coal price to a level that was unaffordable. Result, 25% of Victoria's generating capacity shut down.
There are many politicians who understand the above and much more, I have written to a few. They too are frustrated over the exercise in futility which is lowering CO2 emissions for Paris Agreement, an invisible and odourless gas that is essential for life on Earth. Now just above 400 Parts Per Million in the atmosphere which is not much above plant starvation level. The ideal level would be 1,500 PPM to 2,000 PPM. In US Submarines underwater for weeks at a time 8,000 PPM is not uncommon and no health problems for the crew.
Man made global warming caused by carbon dioxide, CO2, is all about international politics and including Economy Vandalism electric vehicles and RET or unreliable energy super profit machines. And much more.
Whenarewethere said
02:42 PM Apr 12, 2019
Maybe it is worth the insurance when temperatures rise 4°C above the average of 15°C.
A bit like house insurance just incase it burns down.
Greystone said
04:25 PM Apr 12, 2019
It's irrelevant now to argue whether or not climate change due to CO2 is real. The world has moved on. We are entering the era of renewables and electric vehicles whether you want it or not. All forecasts show that renewables and EVs are going to be cheaper than their fossil fueled cousins. Why else would car makers switch to producing EVs? Where I live in western Victoria I see lots of new projects for wind and solar farms and a big battery is planned for Ballarat. They bring employment and energy security. Not one coal fired power station is planned. Why is that? Are all these people wrong? Perhaps, but in the end they make the world a cleaner place and healthy environment, no soot and a big hole. So for me it's worth it and I fully support them.
Greystone said
06:27 PM Apr 12, 2019
Even Shell are preparing for a low carbon future.
https://www.shell.com.au/energy-and-innovation/the-energy-future.html
Knight said
04:13 PM Apr 15, 2019
Greystone wrote:
Even Shell are preparing for a low carbon future. https://www.shell.com.au/energy-and-innovation/the-energy-future.html
Greystone, the article at the link below is about South Africa primarily but also other countries and South Australia and electricity grids, the writer is an engineer ...
Don't know much about South Africa, but that article is extremely anti renewables and includes alternative facts such as attributing the blackouts in South Australia to renewables and that renewables have driven the cost of electricity to exorbitant levels in that state. The prices were driven up by the use of gas powered generators to supply intermittent peak power and the blackouts were due to storms blowing over power lines.
Peter_n_Margaret said
06:18 PM Apr 15, 2019
You are too kind. I would call it a pile of bollocks.
Cheers,
Peter
Aus-Kiwi said
08:00 PM Apr 15, 2019
With trains . The elect side is basically the transmission . Latter on I think batteries with be like LPG bottles . The batteries will fit like they do on our elect power tools . A lot of people are saying things when it comes to power & grid they have no idea . Most our grid, generation was sold off due to being in need of major repaires or replacement . Our domestic costs have gone from $300 a quarter to over $1200 . Keep I. Mind most small towns have diesel generators!! Theres no fast charge from normal 10 or even 15amp power point . When it comes to interstate or grey nomad travel . Ok things may improve in the future ? But we have to budget from what we know now !!
Craig1 said
09:39 PM Apr 15, 2019
Still no real world cost of producing a battery to charge yet another battery, nor the dirty mining involved to produce the chemicals to put into a battery, nor the disposal costs of a guaranteed battery fail. In South Australia, the wind blew once and blew the house down, = one failure for renewables. What about all the subsequent almost fails and the enormous costs of interstate power backup and sucking the life out of those states, because somehow S A appear to get priority because " we knocked down our coal powered power, BUT now we have none, the rest of you must support us as a priority".
Aus-Kiwi said
09:59 PM Apr 15, 2019
Renewables are only working because they are subsidised . In most cases by the people who dont have it ! Keep in mind the taxs elect companies pay here . Some dont pay any !! Profits go overseas . Running at loss . Pay no tax . Oh except GST on customers bills
Whenarewethere said
11:04 PM Apr 15, 2019
That's why fossil fuels work so well, due to the $12 billion a year subsidies.
Greystone said
10:00 AM Apr 16, 2019
Why do some people love to point out the predicted dirty mining and disposal associated with failing dirty batteries, but don't mention the environmental problems we have already been suffering from decades of mining, transporting and refining fossil fuels? Would they prefer to continue burning coal, spilling oil in the oceans, polluting our cities etc instead of looking for cleaner alternatives? The mind boggles.
Whenarewethere said
10:10 AM Apr 16, 2019
Not to forget the suffering families of dying miners from black lung disease. Still happening, it had just been covered up a lot better than in the past.
waterman said
05:13 PM Apr 16, 2019
Have just read and article in caravan world where Al Co are bringing out a hybrid chassis concept for motor homes.
I have a hybrid Toyota and never have to plug it in.
Had a Baily 20 foot caravan and sold it to a man that had a Nissan hybrid and he was traveling to Eye rock.
It will happen in time and it is starting now,
Don't see what the problem is ??
CHEERS
Phillipn said
08:53 PM Apr 16, 2019
wasn_me wrote:
How many billion dollars are raised per year from fuel excise? Where is this revenue going to come from if no fuel or less fuel is sold?
And their is GST on the excise. Which is wrong. Prior to the introduction of GST John Howard said that they could not tax a tax. An example of that is council rates, which has no GST applied, and also stamp duty.
The GST on fuel costs you and me about 4 cents a litre.
I have E-mailed my local member but he has not replied to my question.
Craig1 said
09:04 PM Apr 16, 2019
Dear greystone,
We do apparently know most of the problems with current technology, But still no disclosure on batteries, solar nor wind. if it is all so good why not be upfront with true facts, including your profile.
Whenarewethere said
07:33 AM Apr 17, 2019
I wouldn't get too overly concerned about non recycling on batteries & other car consumables.
In the architectural industry it is frightening the number of reasonably good properties that have major renovations, perfectly good kitchens & bathrooms that are ripped out because the colour is a bit old.
Or for example a $1 million part renovation & the owner didn't like it so it was ripped out & done again with another design!
It's pretty frightening the pointless waste in the building industry because the colour it not the latest trend.
Knight said
07:37 AM Apr 17, 2019
waterman wrote:
Have just read and article in caravan world where Al Co are bringing out a hybrid chassis concept for motor homes. I have a hybrid Toyota and never have to plug it in. Had a Baily 20 foot caravan and sold it to a man that had a Nissan hybrid and he was traveling to Eye rock. It will happen in time and it is starting now, Don't see what the problem is ?? CHEERS
Big differences between a pure electric vehicle and a hybrid vehicle, probably the most important consideration is that a hybrid has an on board petrol engine powered generator to charge and boost the much smaller than EV battery pack. Price is another consideration, hybrid is much less expensive. Third that a hybrid does not have a huge negative impact on the electricity grid even if half of our vehicle fleet were hybrids.
For Australians hybrid technology makes much more sense than EV.
And governments should not dictate to consumers, follow the tried and proven free market capitalism system, let consumers decide what suits them best, governments should not pick the winners and the losers for us.
-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 17th of April 2019 07:39:09 AM
Greystone said
08:49 AM Apr 17, 2019
Not sure what disclosure you are looking for regarding renewables. Google it and you'll find it. There is no conspiracy to hide clean energy, only misinformation spread by fossil fuel stakeholders.
The potential issues with mining rare earth minerals are already well documented and will hopefully be addressed before it escalates.
See this article https://theconversation.com/electric-cars-can-clean-up-the-mining-industry-heres-how-115369?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2017%202019%20-%201287111969&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2017%202019%20-%201287111969+CID_0c9b82cabd458685036fcf7e62d43554&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Electric%20cars%20can%20clean%20up%20the%20mining%20industry%20%20heres%20how
dabbler said
11:12 AM Apr 17, 2019
Knight, Oz consumers are dictating to the govt when it comes to EV/PHEV take-up. Consumers are asking for more EV models because they know there are many more available o/s. I haven't heard any plans about a planned govt edict on vehicle sales although there is a lot misinterpretation in the area. We need a govt that acknowledges change is afoot and gets on board with consumer demand and manufacter supply.
The taxis I have observed and travelled in are Toyota hybrids, electric motor drive via a very small battery pack with a fixed speed petrol engine generator.
Can travel about 25 kms on battery energy and when more power is needed the generator automatically cuts in.
And I have not heard a complaint about the hybrid technology, they can also be recharged from 240v.
However, this is worrying when thinking about a large fleet of EV in Australia being favoured;
EV ownership in Australia is only 1 car in 4,000 of all our cars on the road. Yet already they are causing streets to go black, and possibly blowing transformers which need replacing more often:
Electric cars are already causing some grid failures
Robert Gottliebsen, The Australian
Its a crisis that has been concealed from the vast majority of the population The danger really came home to me when I met up with an affluent, long-time Melbourne acquaintance who lives in a street where there are six Tesla cars. When they all try to charge their batteries at the same time, the power goes out in the street because the grid fails. Sometimes it fails when only three or four of them try to charge at the same time.
Australians only own 5,000 EVs at present. Imagine the fun when 500,000 new EVs hit the streets in 2030, and again in 2031, 2032,.
He talks about intermittent power causing choppy electron flows which make transformers hotter:
We & the various neighbours had dogs that always would fight with each other. So we all agreed to walk the dogs at different times, easy!
A smart network would charge all the car's at staggered times overnight.
If it was urgent to have your car charged sooner, you move up the list paying extra depending how urgent it is. If it is not urgent you move further down the list.
Basic stuff!
Probably 95% of the time it is not actually that urgent to have your car charged right now!
Four generator units of 500 MW so 2000 MW of which 95-98% (capacity factor) is available day and night regardless of wind and sun. Coal fired, steam turbine driving each generator.
Capital Wind Farm near ACT 67 wind turbines on 15,000 acres (6,000 hectares) nameplate/installed capacity 140 MW but 30% capacity factor or average output of energy, 42 MW (could be up to 35%).
Bayswater coal fired Power Station not far away from Liddell shares water storage and coal mine. It has four generator units of 660 MW so 2,640 MW.
There are not enough suitable sites in Australia to install the number of wind turbines required to replace all of the coal fired power stations, and solar won't do the job. Indeed last week it was announced that a solar power station planned for Port Augusta with federal and state government contributions cannot find bankers willing to lend the balance of money. Apparently they realised the capacity factor was 16% compared to 30% for wind turbines.
The only so called renewable energy energy producers/generators are hydro water turbine power stations and in Australia there is insufficient water for large scale hydro. Pumped hydro, the water being pumped back up to the holding dam, is not cost effective which is why the Snowy Mountains Scheme dropped that plan. Also, pumping water uphill requires 20-25% of the energy generated.
Pumped hydro and other "batteries" are back up for unreliable wind and solar systems and add to the infrastructure cost and maintenance. In SA the government has diesel generators and gas fired generators as well as the big battery for backing to avoid blackouts when the grid is destabilising when unreliable don't delivery energy. They also draw from Victoria. The result, the highest pricing for electricity of all states. And now another interconnected is to be built, this one to NSW.
It's a huge mess, we are paying world's highest energy prices and our electricity grid is failing.
Time is running out, new High Energy Low Emissions coal fired power stations are the lowest cost option and we have high grade coal. Next would be gas fired as the US is moving to from coal because gas there is cheaper than coal. Our governments and environmentalists are not allowing hydraulic fracturing for coal seam gas and shale seam gas which the US is exploiting. Of course timber is "green energy", apparently, so wood or other plant matter, biomass is renewable. But the most expensive, most sensible solution would be nuclear power stations. Not necessarily big ones but many small ones using our vast uranium reserves.
The transition to renewables is a get quick rich scheme for investors supported by governments and assisted by penalising coal fired power stations. When you hear that 50 years is the end of their working life ignore it. That is the accounting write off period, they can when maintained operate for 80 or more years. Victoria's Hazlewood Power Station closed despite the operator holding a lease for another couple of decades and a contract for brown coal supplies. The hidden emissions abatement federal legislation (that could be applied to liquid fossil fuel) eats into profit and then the VicGov raised brown coal price to a level that was unaffordable. Result, 25% of Victoria's generating capacity shut down.
There are many politicians who understand the above and much more, I have written to a few. They too are frustrated over the exercise in futility which is lowering CO2 emissions for Paris Agreement, an invisible and odourless gas that is essential for life on Earth. Now just above 400 Parts Per Million in the atmosphere which is not much above plant starvation level. The ideal level would be 1,500 PPM to 2,000 PPM. In US Submarines underwater for weeks at a time 8,000 PPM is not uncommon and no health problems for the crew.
Man made global warming caused by carbon dioxide, CO2, is all about international politics and including Economy Vandalism electric vehicles and RET or unreliable energy super profit machines. And much more.
Maybe it is worth the insurance when temperatures rise 4°C above the average of 15°C.
A bit like house insurance just incase it burns down.
Greystone, the article at the link below is about South Africa primarily but also other countries and South Australia and electricity grids, the writer is an engineer ...
https://city-press.news24.com/Voices/renewable-energy-is-a-disaster-and-will-collapse-sas-electricity-supply-system-20190412?fbclid=IwAR0kya5MVI1aD_XcyKDC0Y2O-MAPGsKdHbmLZlFkkm4ZueYBjPQa_cMDkL8
Cheers,
Peter
That's why fossil fuels work so well, due to the $12 billion a year subsidies.
Not to forget the suffering families of dying miners from black lung disease. Still happening, it had just been covered up a lot better than in the past.
And their is GST on the excise. Which is wrong. Prior to the introduction of GST John Howard said that they could not tax a tax. An example of that is council rates, which has no GST applied, and also stamp duty.
The GST on fuel costs you and me about 4 cents a litre.
I have E-mailed my local member but he has not replied to my question.
We do apparently know most of the problems with current technology, But still no disclosure on batteries, solar nor wind. if it is all so good why not be upfront with true facts, including your profile.
I wouldn't get too overly concerned about non recycling on batteries & other car consumables.
In the architectural industry it is frightening the number of reasonably good properties that have major renovations, perfectly good kitchens & bathrooms that are ripped out because the colour is a bit old.
Or for example a $1 million part renovation & the owner didn't like it so it was ripped out & done again with another design!
It's pretty frightening the pointless waste in the building industry because the colour it not the latest trend.
Big differences between a pure electric vehicle and a hybrid vehicle, probably the most important consideration is that a hybrid has an on board petrol engine powered generator to charge and boost the much smaller than EV battery pack. Price is another consideration, hybrid is much less expensive. Third that a hybrid does not have a huge negative impact on the electricity grid even if half of our vehicle fleet were hybrids.
For Australians hybrid technology makes much more sense than EV.
And governments should not dictate to consumers, follow the tried and proven free market capitalism system, let consumers decide what suits them best, governments should not pick the winners and the losers for us.
-- Edited by Knight on Wednesday 17th of April 2019 07:39:09 AM
Not sure what disclosure you are looking for regarding renewables. Google it and you'll find it. There is no conspiracy to hide clean energy, only misinformation spread by fossil fuel stakeholders.
The potential issues with mining rare earth minerals are already well documented and will hopefully be addressed before it escalates.
See this article https://theconversation.com/electric-cars-can-clean-up-the-mining-industry-heres-how-115369?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2017%202019%20-%201287111969&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2017%202019%20-%201287111969+CID_0c9b82cabd458685036fcf7e62d43554&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Electric%20cars%20can%20clean%20up%20the%20mining%20industry%20%20heres%20how