I can understand the logic of learn to drive and licence young/er ... and drinking age raised. Fine - let the legislated so be it.
However, a couple of thoughts -
our drinking age is 18 - but children from age of 15 are regular drinkers, often with parental approval/encouragement
our licence to drive age ranges from 16 to 18 depending on the state
many (most?) states of USA have licence to drive very young and drinking age at 21
This graph shows that Australia is 'middle of the road' ... and USA is much further behind us in this regard.
I guess the bottom line is ... there is no absolute answer. Kids (people?) will continue to drink, drive, be irresponsible, be unattentive, not maintain their vehicles or their personal health etc etc. It appears that in Straya Outer Regional to Very Remote are the real problem areas. Ya can teach em to steer and brake at city speeds ... but don't let em out in the bush.
In Vic licences & drinking both started at 18. In SA licences started at 16 and drinking at 21. So all the 16 - 20 years old SA youths would drive across to Vic & get a skin-full or a boot-full of grog. Several states had 21 for drinking but dropped it back to 20 when National Service was introduced.
-- Edited by RustyD on Saturday 6th of January 2018 03:24:39 PM
rockylizard said
03:58 PM Jan 6, 2018
RustyD wrote:
In Vic licences & drinking both started at 18. In SA licences started at 16 and drinking at 21. So all the 16 - 20 years old SA youths would drive across to Vic & get a skin-full or a boot-full of grog. Several states had 21 for drinking but dropped it back to 20 when National Service was introduced.
Gday...
The stats are broad, I agree, but it doesn't, on the surface, seem conclusive given the info you have provided above regarding SA and VIC and NSW.
There seems little difference in the number of road deaths, apart from NT.
Road deaths per 100,000 population
Cheers - John
RustyD said
04:35 PM Jan 6, 2018
Just commenting John. Nothing conclusive there at all. SA went thru a horror period many years ago with road deaths of 16 year olds. No idea what it's like these days.
I'd like to see Australia have national laws eg 17 for licences in all states and similar laws for anything that is endorsed on your licence (eg boats).
Speed limits are also odd. In Vic you have to slow to 80kph on a rail crossing and 80kph in tiny towns. In NSW, no limit on rail crossings but 50kph thru tiny towns.
About 20 years ago all the states had a pow-wow about about standardising laws and the only thing they agreed on was Vic & Tas agreed to come in line with the other states on the "turning left" rule. That was it.
Then the motor industry and all the state governments agreed to make immobilisers compulsory on vehicles. It was to be a 12 month phase in period as there was a lead time of up to 8 months getting this done. Then a few months into this period, the WA govt decided they wanted it done in WA in 6 weeks. Caused havoc in the motor industry.
Just before that, WA were allowing grey imports that didn't satisfy ADR requirements (specifically side impact bars) that were then on-sold across the country. It was only when Mazda noticed a vehicle that was not marketed in Australia that they knew was not ADR compliant that the flag was raised.
Woody n Sue said
06:57 PM Jan 6, 2018
Thanks Landy I thought it might be hence the first line , it is a subject that get me going a bit being a farm boy I have and all my mates my age and my kids have too been driving since we could sit on dads knee and steer than as soon as we could work the clutch and see over the dash , we had years of practice before we hit the main roads and yes that too was a different learning curve also .
I do firmly believe we were well above our town mates when we finally hit 18 , however it would also be fair to say there were lots less traffic to deal with back then than now not to mention how modern cars drive compared to the old rattle boxes we learnt in .
It is often quoted that country drivers die on country road which I certainly dont disagree but I would love to see the numbers on how many are city drivers that also die on country roads , as Victorias first death this year was said to be caused by swerving to miss a roo well that is simply a known no no for a country driver , some thing that is not a very common road obstruction in the city I know .
But fatigue read Bordom is something that city drivers are not at all aware of when on a long or very long drive in the country, we grow up with these distances ( an hour to Swanhill just to get the groceries and parts for farm equipment ) as normal and cope simply by habit I guess, and deal with it, and are no doubt better at recognising it and dealing with it than non long distance drivers are.
No I dont know what the real answer is but I do believe that starting learner drivers at a younger age is one big part of the wanted lowering of the road deaths, our three kids all had the required 200 hours driving up in there first year of L plate driving not to mention many hours on driving on and around the farm , the two boys also racing motorx so lots of miles with me towing a trailer , which is also an astonishing ruling here in Vic where a learner may not tow a trailer under instruction while on L plates, but the instance he turns 18 and gets his Ps he can hook on to Mum n dads 30 ft caravan and go off into the sunset , bloody ridiculous and I told Vic roads that too made me feel better but thats all , lol.
Woody
RustyD said
08:50 PM Jan 6, 2018
As an opposite to Ls on trailers, an L-plater can drive a car over the power/rate ratio but a P-plater cannot. I got to play with lots of toys working at Ford. My son could drive overpowered stuff as an L-plater but my daughter could not as a P-plater. However I considered if a fully licensed driver was beside a P-plater in an overpowered vehicle that I may get away with it. Never got pulled up. My daughter did get to drive a manual LHD Ford Probe around the NW of Melbourne & on the Calder freeway with L-plates on it. No idea if that was legal but she loved it.
aussie_paul said
09:07 PM Jan 6, 2018
Education, education, and education is the answer to most problems. BUT it takes time. Like growing trees. The best time to plants trees is 30 years ago, the second best time is today.
Aussie Paul.
Woody n Sue said
08:33 AM Jan 7, 2018
Aussie Paul education to me is about reading and study which is all very good but, it is all theory , driving is a hands on the wheel and peddles thing there is no substitute for hands on learning to drive , and as such if the government is realy serious about safety and reducing the road toll the only way I see is to have compulsory practical driver education which will cost serious money , but then so does repairing broken bodies ,
Woody
rockylizard said
08:52 AM Jan 7, 2018
Gday...
Unfortunately, this is a bit out of date ... but I would think the theory is still relevant if not correct.
DECA, driver training organisation in Victoria, run Advanced/Defensive driving courses for drivers of every type of rig on the road.
Back in the early 1990s when I was there doing a caravan handling course (my 2nd over four years ) I was talking to the bloke and his boss.
They agreed that all drivers needed far more tuition and experience than they were exposed to between L, P plates and full licence.
They had done some sums and calculated they could structure and implement courses for EVERY licenced driver in Victoria and the Government would be able to fund that if they implemented a $1 'surcharge' on each licence issue and renewal - AND if that $1 was ALL spend only on that driver training.
They had represented it to their local minister, and had even been to Spring Street to be given a hearing.
End result ... government of the day was not interested. DECA could not get an impression if it was the fear of adding a 'tax' to licences, fear of ensuring the retention of the $1 per licence for driver training ... or just not prepared to handle the political flak of mandating additional driver training on the voting public.
Cheers - John
aussie_paul said
01:29 PM Jan 7, 2018
Woody n Sue wrote:
Aussie Paul education to me is about reading and study which is all very good but, it is all theory , driving is a hands on the wheel and peddles thing there is no substitute for hands on learning to drive , and as such if the government is realy serious about safety and reducing the road toll the only way I see is to have compulsory practical driver education which will cost serious money , but then so does repairing broken bodies ,
Woody
Education re "attitudes" Woody.
Aussie Paul.
Woody n Sue said
12:13 PM Jan 8, 2018
Aussie Paul attitudes there sure is a need for some of that , or should I say a whole lot less attitude while on the road .
Gday...
I can understand the logic of learn to drive and licence young/er ... and drinking age raised. Fine - let the legislated so be it.
However, a couple of thoughts -
This graph shows that Australia is 'middle of the road' ... and USA is much further behind us in this regard.
I guess the bottom line is ... there is no absolute answer. Kids (people?) will continue to drink, drive, be irresponsible, be unattentive, not maintain their vehicles or their personal health etc etc. It appears that in Straya Outer Regional to Very Remote are the real problem areas. Ya can teach em to steer and brake at city speeds ... but don't let em out in the bush.
Legislation is not ever the answer.
Cheers - John
www.thecourier.com.au/story/5151262/too-old-for-10-year-drivers-licence/
In Vic licences & drinking both started at 18. In SA licences started at 16 and drinking at 21. So all the 16 - 20 years old SA youths would drive across to Vic & get a skin-full or a boot-full of grog. Several states had 21 for drinking but dropped it back to 20 when National Service was introduced.
-- Edited by RustyD on Saturday 6th of January 2018 03:24:39 PM
Gday...
The stats are broad, I agree, but it doesn't, on the surface, seem conclusive given the info you have provided above regarding SA and VIC and NSW.
There seems little difference in the number of road deaths, apart from NT.
Road deaths per 100,000 population
Cheers - John
I'd like to see Australia have national laws eg 17 for licences in all states and similar laws for anything that is endorsed on your licence (eg boats).
Speed limits are also odd. In Vic you have to slow to 80kph on a rail crossing and 80kph in tiny towns. In NSW, no limit on rail crossings but 50kph thru tiny towns.
About 20 years ago all the states had a pow-wow about about standardising laws and the only thing they agreed on was Vic & Tas agreed to come in line with the other states on the "turning left" rule. That was it.
Then the motor industry and all the state governments agreed to make immobilisers compulsory on vehicles. It was to be a 12 month phase in period as there was a lead time of up to 8 months getting this done. Then a few months into this period, the WA govt decided they wanted it done in WA in 6 weeks. Caused havoc in the motor industry.
Just before that, WA were allowing grey imports that didn't satisfy ADR requirements (specifically side impact bars) that were then on-sold across the country. It was only when Mazda noticed a vehicle that was not marketed in Australia that they knew was not ADR compliant that the flag was raised.
I do firmly believe we were well above our town mates when we finally hit 18 , however it would also be fair to say there were lots less traffic to deal with back then than now not to mention how modern cars drive compared to the old rattle boxes we learnt in .
It is often quoted that country drivers die on country road which I certainly dont disagree but I would love to see the numbers on how many are city drivers that also die on country roads , as Victorias first death this year was said to be caused by swerving to miss a roo well that is simply a known no no for a country driver , some thing that is not a very common road obstruction in the city I know .
But fatigue read Bordom is something that city drivers are not at all aware of when on a long or very long drive in the country, we grow up with these distances ( an hour to Swanhill just to get the groceries and parts for farm equipment ) as normal and cope simply by habit I guess, and deal with it, and are no doubt better at recognising it and dealing with it than non long distance drivers are.
No I dont know what the real answer is but I do believe that starting learner drivers at a younger age is one big part of the wanted lowering of the road deaths, our three kids all had the required 200 hours driving up in there first year of L plate driving not to mention many hours on driving on and around the farm , the two boys also racing motorx so lots of miles with me towing a trailer , which is also an astonishing ruling here in Vic where a learner may not tow a trailer under instruction while on L plates, but the instance he turns 18 and gets his Ps he can hook on to Mum n dads 30 ft caravan and go off into the sunset , bloody ridiculous and I told Vic roads that too made me feel better but thats all , lol.
Woody
Education, education, and education is the answer to most problems.
BUT it takes time. Like growing trees. The best time to plants trees is 30 years ago, the second best time is today.
Aussie Paul.
Woody
Gday...
Unfortunately, this is a bit out of date ... but I would think the theory is still relevant if not correct.
DECA, driver training organisation in Victoria, run Advanced/Defensive driving courses for drivers of every type of rig on the road.
Back in the early 1990s when I was there doing a caravan handling course (my 2nd over four years
) I was talking to the bloke and his boss.
They agreed that all drivers needed far more tuition and experience than they were exposed to between L, P plates and full licence.
They had done some sums and calculated they could structure and implement courses for EVERY licenced driver in Victoria and the Government would be able to fund that if they implemented a $1 'surcharge' on each licence issue and renewal - AND if that $1 was ALL spend only on that driver training.
They had represented it to their local minister, and had even been to Spring Street to be given a hearing.
End result ... government of the day was not interested. DECA could not get an impression if it was the fear of adding a 'tax' to licences, fear of ensuring the retention of the $1 per licence for driver training ... or just not prepared to handle the political flak of mandating additional driver training on the voting public.
Cheers - John
Education re "attitudes" Woody.
Aussie Paul.
Woody