My data did come from Elgas web site and it and the others are wrong to say propane is heavier than air. The correct terminology is specific gravity not weight.
Alan
Whatever you like to call it !!
In confined spaces with little or no air movement, it will sink to the lowest point.!!!
Aus-Kiwi said
11:36 PM Aug 29, 2016
Especially as it comes from cylinder it's cold . I wouldnt be lighting a match above gas on floor ! It still dissipates into air in can . Yes it's heavier . Why they have slotted wooden floors in fill areas . Gas sensors at the bottom of van ..
brickies said
06:32 AM Aug 30, 2016
Has an retired full time firefighter , Be careful what you take notice of on this post . Treat all gas with respect turn the cylinder Value off if not in use .
Aus-Kiwi said
12:11 PM Aug 30, 2016
Exactly . In some ways should be off while a sleep .. Zzzzz
Spook said
04:05 PM Sep 7, 2016
Tony Bev wrote:
adreamer wrote:
I ask again!! What is/does cause a gas explosion in a van??
Seems to be too many recently and I'm sure in the past.
Helen
Hello adreamer
I will assume that no Gas Fitters have seen this thread, therefore from a layman point of view, I will attempt to answer your question
There are many areas inside the van the gas could accidently start leaking from, such as a hairline crack on the supply pipe, any joins along the gas pipe which are inside the van, the control switches of the gas appliances, etc.
The leaking gas is heavier than air, it will accumulate in the lowest area it can find The smallest leak, over time, will result in a large enough accumulation of gas to explode when it comes into contact with a spark or flame
In a van with a three way fridge, while it is working on gas, there is always a flame burning, which will cause any accumulated leaking gas to explode
The manufactures put in a smelling agent (Ethyl Mercaptan). To ensure that a person will be able to smell leaking gas Unfortunately when a person is asleep, or has the sniffles, there is a good chance that they will not smell leaking gas
Sometimes there is not much left of the van after a gas explosion, to pinpoint exactly what happened This is why we sometimes just have to guess, how did it happen
Some people I know, have decided that as they do not open their fridge at night, they will turn it off, to save gas I will assume that if the gas bottle is also turned off, there would be no chance of a gas explosion
I think you will find that the gas fitters are tired of being told that they don't know what they are talking about, and they are being told that by the uninformed knowalls.
Tony Bev said
04:34 PM Sep 7, 2016
Spook wrote:
Tony Bev wrote:
adreamer wrote:
I ask again!! What is/does cause a gas explosion in a van??
Seems to be too many recently and I'm sure in the past.
Helen
Hello adreamer
I will assume that no Gas Fitters have seen this thread, therefore from a layman point of view, I will attempt to answer your question
There are many areas inside the van the gas could accidently start leaking from, such as a hairline crack on the supply pipe, any joins along the gas pipe which are inside the van, the control switches of the gas appliances, etc.
The leaking gas is heavier than air, it will accumulate in the lowest area it can find The smallest leak, over time, will result in a large enough accumulation of gas to explode when it comes into contact with a spark or flame
In a van with a three way fridge, while it is working on gas, there is always a flame burning, which will cause any accumulated leaking gas to explode
The manufactures put in a smelling agent (Ethyl Mercaptan). To ensure that a person will be able to smell leaking gas Unfortunately when a person is asleep, or has the sniffles, there is a good chance that they will not smell leaking gas
Sometimes there is not much left of the van after a gas explosion, to pinpoint exactly what happened This is why we sometimes just have to guess, how did it happen
Some people I know, have decided that as they do not open their fridge at night, they will turn it off, to save gas I will assume that if the gas bottle is also turned off, there would be no chance of a gas explosion
I think you will find that the gas fitters are tired of being told that they don't know what they are talking about, and they are being told that by the uninformed knowalls.
I was unaware that the gas fitters amongst us were being treated with disrespect, and had stopped answering questions on gas related issues
May I be one of the first to say, that if I ask a gas related question, then I would appreciate an answer from a gas fitter, much more than a guessed answer from a brain surgeon
No disrespect to any brain surgeons, and I hope the gas fitters realise that with no gas fitters replying, I was giving a layman answer to a generalised question
I certainly hope that I will not be responsible for opening a can of worms, especially on a serious topic concerning gas explosions
Aus-Kiwi said
02:53 PM Sep 8, 2016
One biggie is checking or replacing the flexable hose between bottle and reg . Once a year or so some soapy (or detergent )water should be applied by spray or brush over joints to check for leaks . Gas bottles generally don't explode on there own .. Keep the gas alarm well maintained even if it's like a smoke alarm becomes a pita ., I turn my stove or oven off when not in use . Especially over night .,
Warren-Pat_01 said
06:56 PM Sep 24, 2016
When I worked on the E-W microwave link between Port Pirie (SA) & Northam (WA) we used nitrogen, later dry air in the waveguides to keep moisture out (30 years ago). If there was a leak, a liquid called Leak-tec was used - see www.amgas.com/ltpage.htm . Unlike soapy water, it did not corrode the fittings & it detected far smaller leaks.
Whether it is still available, I do not know. I bought a good portable electronic detector for $30 a couple of years ago from Spry's at Ceduna (SA). It hasn't failed yet.
Warren
macka17 said
10:42 PM Sep 24, 2016
With these new flexie hoses t'ween reg and bottles.
Just like tyres, i replace mine around every 5 yrs.
They DO deteriorate too. It's just general maintenance.
For a few$$$'s.
Copper normally good forever.
Retiredatlast said
08:24 PM Oct 15, 2016
Hi All
I have recently retired from being a Safework SA Inspector for Dangerous Goods. This is class 2 LPG, Class 3 petrol, thinners, turps, class 6 poisons and 8 acids etc.
My job was to approve installations for storage of dangerous goods including service stations U/G tanks and above tanks/cylinders etc.
AS1596 is a standard for LPG. There are other guidelines for LPG installations. The topic is complex but basics are below.
One 9kg gas stored inside a house that leaks and finds an ignition source will destroy that house. An RV or van would have very little left of it.
The first thing is the cylinder must be outside the van or RV or vented to the outside atmosphere so any leaks from the cylinder stay outside. Piping will come inside and have fittings that can also leak. Many do not understand the dangers. I myself don't trust some tradesmen who do the work.
LPG is heavier than air so any leaks inside will start from the floor up. LPG needs oxygen to burn and is unlikely to burn by itself. If a van or RV has a vented door down low most gas will leak out low vents but still may be enough to cause and explosion with a spark or static electricity inside a van.
As I have seen accidents in the past from LPG I always turn off the gas at the cylinders at night and I sleep much more peacefully. Also when not in use I turn it off. Never travel with it on.
Retiredatlast said
08:27 PM Oct 15, 2016
And cylinders have a emergency vent but will explode in a fire due to "hot spots" that is heat from a fire weakening the steel wall of the cylinder. Just treat them as a bomb because that is what they are in a fire.
iana said
08:46 PM Oct 15, 2016
Noooooo the monster awakens!
Retiredatlast said
10:49 AM Oct 16, 2016
And I forgot to mention the same goes for class 3 substances like petrol, thinners, turps, mentholated spirits you don't want leaks inside. They have explosive vapors.
Pressure pack cans even your cooking oil may have LPG as a propellant. Then we may eat this stuff on the fry pan as well. Most are not aware of this. LPG is a petroleum product and we know they cause cancer.
Look at the pressure pack can and check the class labels that should be a diamond shape and if it has a number 2 or 3 on it be very careful. Some may not have a diamond label but read the text or information and see what it contains.
Retiredatlast said
11:11 PM Oct 16, 2016
I notice other comments saying propane and others saying LPG. There are different types of LP gas.
1.One is a automotive LPG for cars and forklifts etc. This is seen as a less refined product, not as clean burning as Propane.
2. Propane (LPG) is a term used for a cleaner LPG gas. This is used in your barbecue cylinders and household gas.
AS1596 The storage and handling of LP Gas makes it clear not to use automotive gas in domestic appliances. The Standard does not say why. This is unfortunate.
The reason is a automotive gas is not as clean and there have been cases where persons using automotive gas in domestic cooking, the flame has gone out filling the room with explosive gas. Some people say automotive gas is cheaper which may be so but the risk of it going out and filling it with automotive gas is not worth it.
AS1596 also asks for Tanks that contain Propane that the tank is identified as such. You can however use Propane for an automotive gas. So Propane can be used for auto and domestic use.
Its no good blaming a gas company if their products cause a fire or explosion through incorrect use of their products or guidelines.
Like all guidelines from standards or the gas act they are there for good reason, unfortunately most do not say why. I find this stupid personally as it does not deter people from doing the wrong thing.
I have come across work sites where companies made up fittings to fill the company barbecue cylinders with forklift gas from LPG tanks as its cheaper and more convenient. This practice was stopped immediately. They did not understand the consequences. You can not blame the gas gas company for these type of illegal activities.
-- Edited by Retiredatlast on Monday 17th of October 2016 06:03:58 PM
Particularly in country areas, I have very often seen LPG 'tankers' refilling the 'autogas' tank at the servo ... and then going over and refilling the 'LPG' tanks used for filling the 9Kg LPG bottles. No wonder the public is confused.
Cheers - John
Retiredatlast said
04:04 PM Oct 17, 2016
Hi John
Yes, John auto gas is also an industrial gas and is different as in my text as I mentioned and as you have snipped. This gas is also usually cheaper than Pure Propane.
Yes, sometimes you will see LPG tanks for auto use being filled by a tanker then filling cylinders 190kg or 210kg ( correct definition cylinders not tanks) for domestic use.
The reason is cost. Would a company prefer to send 2 LPG tankers to the country sites or one ? Which is cheaper for them do you think ? If a good customer has almost run out of Auto LPG and they have a tanker with Pure Propane close by in the country what do you think they will do to keep the customer happy ? Drop the load of Propane or part of it into his tanks to keep them going.
Your snippet appears to be correct above and as in my text auto gas or industrial gas should not be used for domestic use.
If its cheaper for a company to deliver in the country, they may use Pure Propane for both auto and domestic use or are doing something perhaps they should not. I like to think that is not the case.
The Auto gas snippet just reinforces what is in my original text. Confusing....Pure Propane, Butane, auto gas, industrial gas and there may be other types to suit other industrial applications.
Hope this makes it clearer. Confusing isn't it though when you see a tanker doing both ?
-- Edited by Retiredatlast on Tuesday 18th of October 2016 10:47:32 AM
-- Edited by Retiredatlast on Tuesday 18th of October 2016 10:51:21 AM
Retiredatlast said
06:51 PM Oct 18, 2016
And again
I have been to work sites to inspect gas installations. In some cases I have seen the gas regulator below the cylinder outlet installed by licensed gas fitters. I have also seen this on caravan installations who are mobile and in caravan parks.
One gas regulator was installed 15 cm off the ground coming from a LPG tank. I would direct the plumber/gas fitter to rectify it.
This is not allowable for good reason. Any LPG liquid that gets trapped in the pipe can drain back to the regulator and stop it from functioning correctly. In some cases I would say to the gas user " I bet your gas goes out from time to time" They would usually say yes they have brought the gas fitter/plumber back several times. Of course this is costly for them and not their fault. This has happened on industrial sites and home domestic installations.
If your gas goes out in your caravan it can have disastrous results. Some gas equipment is designed to turn off automatically if the flame goes out, but not all.
So check and keep your gas regulator outside the van and above the gas cylinder outlet.
Sorry if all this info is too much to take in but there is 26 years of knowledge bottled up inside me.
Whatever you like to call it !!
In confined spaces with little or no air movement, it will sink to the lowest point.!!!
I think you will find that the gas fitters are tired of being told that they don't know what they are talking about, and they are being told that by the uninformed knowalls.
I was unaware that the gas fitters amongst us were being treated with disrespect, and had stopped answering questions on gas related issues
May I be one of the first to say, that if I ask a gas related question, then I would appreciate an answer from a gas fitter, much more than a guessed answer from a brain surgeon
No disrespect to any brain surgeons, and I hope the gas fitters realise that with no gas fitters replying, I was giving a layman answer to a generalised question
Here we go again !
Whether it is still available, I do not know. I bought a good portable electronic detector for $30 a couple of years ago from Spry's at Ceduna (SA). It hasn't failed yet.
Warren
Just like tyres, i replace mine around every 5 yrs.
They DO deteriorate too. It's just general maintenance.
For a few$$$'s.
Copper normally good forever.
I have recently retired from being a Safework SA Inspector for Dangerous Goods. This is class 2 LPG, Class 3 petrol, thinners, turps, class 6 poisons and 8 acids etc.
My job was to approve installations for storage of dangerous goods including service stations U/G tanks and above tanks/cylinders etc.
AS1596 is a standard for LPG. There are other guidelines for LPG installations. The topic is complex but basics are below.
One 9kg gas stored inside a house that leaks and finds an ignition source will destroy that house. An RV or van would have very little left of it.
The first thing is the cylinder must be outside the van or RV or vented to the outside atmosphere so any leaks from the cylinder stay outside. Piping will come inside and have fittings that can also leak. Many do not understand the dangers. I myself don't trust some tradesmen who do the work.
LPG is heavier than air so any leaks inside will start from the floor up. LPG needs oxygen to burn and is unlikely to burn by itself. If a van or RV has a vented door down low most gas will leak out low vents but still may be enough to cause and explosion with a spark or static electricity inside a van.
As I have seen accidents in the past from LPG I always turn off the gas at the cylinders at night and I sleep much more peacefully. Also when not in use I turn it off. Never travel with it on.
Noooooo the monster awakens!
Pressure pack cans even your cooking oil may have LPG as a propellant. Then we may eat this stuff on the fry pan as well. Most are not aware of this. LPG is a petroleum product and we know they cause cancer.
Look at the pressure pack can and check the class labels that should be a diamond shape and if it has a number 2 or 3 on it be very careful. Some may not have a diamond label but read the text or information and see what it contains.
I notice other comments saying propane and others saying LPG. There are different types of LP gas.
1.One is a automotive LPG for cars and forklifts etc. This is seen as a less refined product, not as clean burning as Propane.
2. Propane (LPG) is a term used for a cleaner LPG gas. This is used in your barbecue cylinders and household gas.
AS1596 The storage and handling of LP Gas makes it clear not to use automotive gas in domestic appliances. The Standard does not say why. This is unfortunate.
The reason is a automotive gas is not as clean and there have been cases where persons using automotive gas in domestic cooking, the flame has gone out filling the room with explosive gas. Some people say automotive gas is cheaper which may be so but the risk of it going out and filling it with automotive gas is not worth it.
AS1596 also asks for Tanks that contain Propane that the tank is identified as such. You can however use Propane for an automotive gas. So Propane can be used for auto and domestic use.
Its no good blaming a gas company if their products cause a fire or explosion through incorrect use of their products or guidelines.
Like all guidelines from standards or the gas act they are there for good reason, unfortunately most do not say why. I find this stupid personally as it does not deter people from doing the wrong thing.
I have come across work sites where companies made up fittings to fill the company barbecue cylinders with forklift gas from LPG tanks as its cheaper and more convenient. This practice was stopped immediately. They did not understand the consequences. You can not blame the gas gas company for these type of illegal activities.
-- Edited by Retiredatlast on Monday 17th of October 2016 06:03:58 PM
Gday...
Thanks for the good 'inside' info Colin.
However, I offer the following -
The above was snipped from this site -
http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/350-propane-lpg-whats-what
So is ELGAS incorrect?
Particularly in country areas, I have very often seen LPG 'tankers' refilling the 'autogas' tank at the servo ... and then going over and refilling the 'LPG' tanks used for filling the 9Kg LPG bottles. No wonder the public is confused.
Cheers - John
Hi John
Yes, John auto gas is also an industrial gas and is different as in my text as I mentioned and as you have snipped. This gas is also usually cheaper than Pure Propane.
Yes, sometimes you will see LPG tanks for auto use being filled by a tanker then filling cylinders 190kg or 210kg ( correct definition cylinders not tanks) for domestic use.
The reason is cost. Would a company prefer to send 2 LPG tankers to the country sites or one ? Which is cheaper for them do you think ? If a good customer has almost run out of Auto LPG and they have a tanker with Pure Propane close by in the country what do you think they will do to keep the customer happy ? Drop the load of Propane or part of it into his tanks to keep them going.
Your snippet appears to be correct above and as in my text auto gas or industrial gas should not be used for domestic use.
If its cheaper for a company to deliver in the country, they may use Pure Propane for both auto and domestic use or are doing something perhaps they should not. I like to think that is not the case.
The Auto gas snippet just reinforces what is in my original text. Confusing....Pure Propane, Butane, auto gas, industrial gas and there may be other types to suit other industrial applications.
Hope this makes it clearer. Confusing isn't it though when you see a tanker doing both ?
-- Edited by Retiredatlast on Tuesday 18th of October 2016 10:47:32 AM
-- Edited by Retiredatlast on Tuesday 18th of October 2016 10:51:21 AM
I have been to work sites to inspect gas installations. In some cases I have seen the gas regulator below the cylinder outlet installed by licensed gas fitters. I have also seen this on caravan installations who are mobile and in caravan parks.
One gas regulator was installed 15 cm off the ground coming from a LPG tank. I would direct the plumber/gas fitter to rectify it.
This is not allowable for good reason. Any LPG liquid that gets trapped in the pipe can drain back to the regulator and stop it from functioning correctly. In some cases I would say to the gas user " I bet your gas goes out from time to time" They would usually say yes they have brought the gas fitter/plumber back several times. Of course this is costly for them and not their fault. This has happened on industrial sites and home domestic installations.
If your gas goes out in your caravan it can have disastrous results. Some gas equipment is designed to turn off automatically if the flame goes out, but not all.
So check and keep your gas regulator outside the van and above the gas cylinder outlet.
Sorry if all this info is too much to take in but there is 26 years of knowledge bottled up inside me.