I am always somewhat confused as to exactly where the risk lies in the 'illegal' connections.
As I see it the elements are
1. Home fuse box including the circuit breaker & personal electrocution devices
2. Cabling from 10a power point to power point
3. Final 10 amp (F) power point where the van is to be connected
4. 10 amp (M) plug on the 'illegally' modified extension lead
5. 15 amp extension lead cable
6. 15 amp (F) socket end of the extension lead
7. 15 amp (M) input plug on the van
8. Any appliance/device connected inside the van
Does the problem arise only when the combined current draw exceeds 10amps.
edit ps. Is the risk from potential fires or does it include failure of personal protection units (electrocution) too?
I would very much appreciate an answer from the 'suitably qualified experts' perhaps in terms that the semi literates like me can understand.
-- Edited by Cupie on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 12:59:24 PM
Tony Bev said
01:43 PM Apr 26, 2016
KFT wrote:
rockylizard wrote:
Gday...
Unfortunately, like all electrical query threads on almost every forum - this one has gone ... I apologise for also dragging it .
This is Amp-phibian - fully approved and able to be used in external, all weather situations - eg van park/showgrounds etc - NOTE: ensure you obtain RV2-MAX -
This is the Jaycar product - NOT approved for external use - ie in any weather situations. However, this can be used in the home (or garage) to plug your 15amp van cord to a 10amp supply - UNDER COVER.
If only needing to connect your van to 240v to, for instance, charge the battery/s or run the fridge before setting off, then the Jaycar product is a cheaper, and an effective and safe option.
I do think though, that if the only reason you want a 10amp>15amp adaptor, just get a sparky to install a 15amp outlet in the garage/shed. I reckon that would be done for about the price of either adaptor above - and would DEFINITELY be 'compliant' and you could do EVERYTHING you wanted in the van.
cheers - John
G'day Rocky
you always do some good research and provide comprehensive info in your posts and thanks for that.
There is a Jaycar product that is approved and is weatherproof.
-- Edited by KFT on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:52:55 AM
Hello rockylizard and KFT
I hope that I am not going off topic
But.... from myself and I assume others, thanks for the links, they are appreciated
Delta18 said
02:22 PM Apr 26, 2016
Cupie wrote:
I am always somewhat confused as to exactly where the risk lies in the 'illegal' connections.
As I see it the elements are
1. Home fuse box including the circuit breaker & personal electrocution devices
2. Cabling from 10a power point to power point
3. Final 10 amp (F) power point where the van is to be connected
4. 10 amp (M) plug on the 'illegally' modified extension lead
5. 15 amp extension lead cable
6. 15 amp (F) socket end of the extension lead
7. 15 amp (M) input plug on the van
8. Any appliance/device connected inside the van
Does the problem arise only when the combined current draw exceeds 10amps.
edit ps. Is the risk from potential fires or does it include failure of personal protection units (electrocution) too?
I would very much appreciate an answer from the 'suitably qualified experts' perhaps in terms that the semi literates like me can understand.
-- Edited by Cupie on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 12:59:24 PM
The Risk lies in if somebody making the cheater lead connected the Earth Wire to the wrong spot in the plug it could create a Short. I would assume a fuse would blow but not sure on that.
Provided the plug is wired correctly there is NO risk.
The only problem may be that some dummy might try to run everything in the van at the same time & even then, if the sparkie that wired the house did his job correctly a fuse/breaker on that circuit would blow/break.
All a caravanner wants to do is run his fridge to pre-cool & maybe top up battery. This will not hurt anything.
aussie_paul said
03:56 PM Apr 26, 2016
Delta18 wrote:
The Risk lies in if somebody making the cheater lead connected the Earth Wire to the wrong spot in the plug it could create a Short. I would assume a fuse would blow but not sure on that.
Provided the plug is wired correctly there is NO risk.
The only problem may be that some dummy might try to run everything in the van at the same time & even then, if the sparkie that wired the house did his job correctly a fuse/breaker on that circuit would blow/break.
All a caravanner wants to do is run his fridge to pre-cool & maybe top up battery. This will not hurt anything.
So very true Neil, unfortunately the rules are made to handle the lowest common denominator dumb arses, not those who were lucky enough to be born with a good dose of common sense, and have a father who instilled in us to be VERY careful.
Aussie Paul.
KFT said
04:02 PM Apr 26, 2016
If I may provide some facts on home power circuits that may enlighten a few.
The circuit breaker on a home power circuit can legally be much greater than the 10 amp outlets rating. For example if a power circuit is wired in 2.5mm cable and is installed in a certain way then the circuit breaker could be as high as 20 amps. This circuit breaker is there to prevent the cable from being overloaded and as such overheated.
The 10 amp power point is rated for a continuous current flow of 10amps.
If a load exceeding 10 amps is connected to a 10 amp outlet there is a very real risk of the outlet overheating and as they are usually plastic they can melt and this heating could cause a fire.
This is why a 15 amp lead has a larger earth pin, like a key that prevents it being inserted into a 10 amp outlet.
Happy to provide more info if anyone would like it.
Frank
aussie_paul said
04:05 PM Apr 26, 2016
KFT wrote:
If I may provide some facts on home power circuits that may enlighten a few.
The circuit breaker on a home power circuit can legally be much greater than the 10 amp outlets rating. For example if a power circuit is wired in 2.5mm cable and is installed in a certain way then the circuit breaker could be as high as 20 amps. This circuit breaker is there to prevent the cable from being overloaded and as such overheated.
The 10 amp power point is rated for a continuous current flow of 10amps.
If a load exceeding 10 amps is connected to a 10 amp outlet there is a very real risk of the outlet overheating and as they are usually plastic they can melt and this heating could cause a fire.
This is why a 15 amp lead has a larger earth pin, like a key that prevents it being inserted into a 10 amp outlet.
Happy to provide more info if anyone would like it.
Frank
Thanks Frank, interesting.
Aussie Paul.
Aus-Kiwi said
05:54 PM Apr 26, 2016
Now . If you have 15 amp outlet on your geni ? You can get away with normal 10 amp lead to fridge .. Not a problem ..
oldtrack123 said
10:08 PM Apr 26, 2016
Hi Delta 18
I hope you have read Frank's post
THEN you just MIGHT have a clue,on the subject
Delta18 said
10:29 PM Apr 26, 2016
oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi Delta 18 I hope you have read Frank's post THEN you just MIGHT have a clue,on the subject
I know I have overloaded a double GPO in my house by carelessly having an electric jug, a mini oven / toaster oven on as well as a coffee machine. There was no smoke, no fire, no alarms.....the RCD simply popped out. I turned off the appliances & clicked it back in & all was good with the world again.
I would assume the same thing would happen IF I were to put a kettle on while I had my fridge cooling in the van, not that that would happen.
BTW, I do have a 15a GPO in my shed which I use to pre-cool my fridge prior to a trip. It was fitted though to run an air compressor which required 15a to run otherwise I would still be "dicing with death" with a 10a GPO.
Cheers Neil
oldtrack123 said
10:38 PM Apr 26, 2016
,I am always somewhat confused as to exactly where the risk lies in the 'illegal' connections.
I Cupie
As I see it the elements are
1. Home fuse box including the circuit breaker & personal electrocution devices
2. Cabling from 10a power point to power point
3. Final 10 amp (F) power point where the van is to be connected
4. 10 amp (M) plug on the 'illegally' modified extension lead
5. 15 amp extension lead cable
6. 15 amp (F) socket end of the extension lead
7. 15 amp (M) input plug on the van
8. Any appliance/device connected inside the van
[a]Does the problem arise only when the combined current draw exceeds 10amps.
edit ps. Is the risk from potential fires or does it include failure of personal protection units (electrocution) too?
I would very much appreciate an answer from the 'suitably qualified experts' perhaps in terms that the semi literates like me[end quote'
From A qualified EXPERT
Yes the risk lies with overheating of sockets due to current draws in excess of 10A that is why the Amfibians & multi outlet power boards/boxes SHALL have an INBUILT 10A Circuit breaker
They are not /will not be approved without a10A OLCB INBUILT
a 10A outlet only needs to be able to carry 11A, without overheating when NEW, to be approved
But as they age the current carrying capacity, before overheating, decreases
This can be aggravated by any overload.
While some claim they are careful not to use more than 10A with a bodgy lead, that cannot always be guaranteed,& they can easily get into the wrong hands .
THAT IS WHY SUCH ARE BANNED
FIRE RISK
Nothing to do with electrocution, except due to possible melted insulation on a 10A extension lead
Some owners even leave then in the van when selling
The whole purpose of different sized plugs is they act as a key limiting their use to only suitable sized sockets
The higher rated plugs cannot be used in lower rated sockets but it can be OK to use a lower rated plug into a higher rated socket
The Wiring to the 10A socket, be that house, CP, or anywhere else is irrelevant
It will almost certainly be 15< 20A cable protected by a 15 or 20A olcb[ or even higher] to allow use of multiple devices on that circuit.
The correctly rated plug for the socket[ AND the connected device] protects the actual outlet in use.
BY law ,APPLIANCES & Devices SHALL be fitted with a plug of a rating NO less than the appliance's" continuous" current rating
Again it must be understood the damage may not show immediately, unless it is a very heavy overload, but any overload will have a cumulative effect until one day a fire occurs.
That fire could ,then, could be with just a normal load of 10A or even less>
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 10:47:28 PM
oldtrack123 said
10:57 PM Apr 26, 2016
Delta 18
RCDs do not trip on overload !!
You where lucky that the OVERLOAD unit tripped, because the overload was high enough for THAT to happen
If the load had been slightly less you may well have had a serious fire, without the OLCB tripping, & that is a perfect example of the problem
But you also had a double wall outlet , so the load was being SHARED between TWO OUTLETS
In your case the OLCB tripped TO PROTECT THE CABLES!!!
You had exceeded the power circuit WIRING'S rated current!!
THAT is a totally different kettle of fish!!
Cupie said
10:57 PM Apr 26, 2016
Thank you oldtrack 123 for your answer. Makes sense to me.
BTW, I have a work history that includes electronics, communications & at one time a restricted electrical licence that enabled me to change cords on certain 240v electrical devices.
colinoldncranky said
11:10 PM Apr 26, 2016
Delta18 wrote:
...
The Risk lies in if somebody making the cheater lead connected the Earth Wire to the wrong spot in the plug it could create a Short. I would assume a fuse would blow but not sure on that.
Provided the plug is wired correctly there is NO risk.
The only problem may be that some dummy might try to run everything in the van at the same time & even then, if the sparkie that wired the house did his job correctly a fuse/breaker on that circuit would blow/break.
All a caravanner wants to do is run his fridge to pre-cool & maybe top up battery. This will not hurt anything.
It's an easy matter to wire a plug so there is no liklihood of a short.
Actually the greater risk is about reversing the live and the neutral.
If so wired incorrectly then the appliance you test it on will still work. But therein lies the HIGHLY dangerous situation. Because it will them be used with confidence that is not well placed.
If everything is as it should be then if an appliance that is connected to the mains goes "live" than someone touching it will be subject to a potentially lethal voltage. And it may be that they cannot let go of the appliance or get out of a lethal electric field (in water for instance). Someone sticking a fork into a jammed toaster to free it up comes readily to mind also.
If someone near or even the "shockee" can turn off the switch at the outlet the appliance should no longer be live. The quicker the better obviously.
However if either the plug or an intervening cord is wired with the live and return reversed than even after switching the appliance will continue to deliver it's lethal load.
It's not only about fire safety. It's about faulty appliances gonig live, and that DOES happen.
-- Edited by colinoldncranky on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:11:46 PM
-- Edited by colinoldncranky on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:12:56 PM
-- Edited by colinoldncranky on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:14:49 PM
Cupie said
08:34 AM Apr 27, 2016
re .. Colinoldcranky post ..... Perhaps less of a risk in caravans where BOTH the active & neutral wires are switched via the mandatory double pole switches.
oldtrack123 said
10:01 AM Apr 27, 2016
Hi Cupie Yes quite true Actually ANY appliance or device which is a plug in connection & has an isolating switch on it ,that switch SHALL be a double pole switch includes devices such as electric saws ,hand drills, vacuum cleaners ,Epods , etc. The same applies to switches on Isolated supplies, inverters, generators ,etc ALL switches SHALL be Double Pole
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 27th of April 2016 10:25:32 AM
oldtrack123 said
10:04 AM Apr 27, 2016
Just on the subject of the short lead [4mt] from "Generator place"
It IS a fully approved lead, 20A cable with 15A plug & 15A socket
Cupie said
10:06 AM Apr 27, 2016
oldtrack123 wrote:
Hi Cupie Yes quite true Actually ANY appliance or device which is a plug in connection & has an isolating switch on it ,that switch SHALL be a double pole switch includes devices such as electric saws ,hand drills, vacuum cleaners etc. The same applies to switches on Isolated supplies, inverters, generators ,etc ALL switches SHALL be Double Pole
Well there you go ... Didn't know that but when I reflect on drills & things that I have pulled apart, that is certainly the case. You learn something every day.
Thanks for that.
Hylife said
06:16 PM Apr 27, 2016
ANY electrician caught do that would be in DEEP S**^
Such a lead is TOTALY ILLEGAL & for very good reasons!!!
It seems some people will never learn
What a load of scaremongering CR@P! It is absolutely NOT illegal. For two resons.
1/ It is not fixed wiring and so needs no qualifications to modify.
2/ There are actually these very same products sold in shops, albeit with an inbuilt safety switch capped at 10 amps.
2weis said
07:23 PM Apr 27, 2016
Hylife wrote:
ANY electrician caught do that would be in DEEP S**^
Such a lead is TOTALY ILLEGAL & for very good reasons!!!
It seems some people will never learn
What a load of scaremongering CR@P! It is absolutely NOT illegal. For two resons.
1/ It is not fixed wiring and so needs no qualifications to modify.
2/ There are actually these very same products sold in shops, albeit with an inbuilt safety switch capped at 10 amps.
hylife
thats not a cord with 2 different ends, which is what the comment is directed at, and I believe is illegal
brian
iana said
07:36 PM Apr 27, 2016
Just to further exasperate the matter, I had a 15amp point put in at home ---- to run the welder or van off, The same circuit breaker is used as a 10 amp supply, same cable size, the only difference is one circuit has a single 15Amp socket on it, and the 10 amp circuit has multiple sockets.
Baz421 said
07:48 PM Apr 27, 2016
iana wrote:
Just to further exasperate the matter, I had a 15amp point put in at home ---- to run the welder or van off, The same circuit breaker is used as a 10 amp supply, same cable size, the only difference is one circuit has a single 15Amp socket on it, and the 10 amp circuit has multiple sockets.
Yep exactly the same at our house.
Aus-Kiwi said
11:36 PM Apr 27, 2016
You may find it has 15 amp breaker In any case it's way under max wire capacity ..
Using 15 amp lead is actually safer than 10 amp .. Why I suggested what I did ..
The wiring rulz don't exactly apply to leads .. But if qualified contractors did it ? They would get a please explain from energy authority ..
Why this become schist fight every time it's bought up.. A longer lead could be used as long as it's not coiled up too much or a least in open air for cooling .. I was an electrical connection inspector .. Some things get tied up in rulz zzz !! This is one example ..
PeterD said
11:52 AM Apr 28, 2016
iana wrote:
Just to further exasperate the matter, I had a 15amp point put in at home ---- to run the welder or van off, The same circuit breaker is used as a 10 amp supply, same cable size, the only difference is one circuit has a single 15Amp socket on it, and the 10 amp circuit has multiple sockets.
Iana, the cable size is determined by the the circuit breaker, not the power point. If the cable is heavy enough so that the breaker will provide short circuit current protection for the cable then the cable is heavy enough to supply the 15 A power point. I don' see any problem with your installation.
-- Edited by PeterD on Thursday 28th of April 2016 11:52:45 AM
oldtrack123 said
02:29 PM Apr 28, 2016
Hy Life
May I suggest you keep away from electrics generally, because you do not have a CLUE what you are talking about!!& are a danger to anyone who takes notice of you!!
First to compare a simple lead with a 10A plug one end & a 15A socket @ 10Aplug on the other end with an Ampfibian is ABSOLTELY STUPID & clearly indicates you do not have ANY Knowledge ON WHY ONE IS APPROVED AND THE OTHER CAN NEVER BE APPROVED!
AS Far As anyone doing electrical WORK your definition of FIXED wiring IS TOTTALY WRONG.
Fixed wiring IS ANY WIRING THAT REQUIRES TOOLS TO MAKE OR BREAK AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION
Non qualified persons can only legally join by plug & sockets
NOTHING to do with how the WIRING is fixed to wall ETC.
Now THAT can be easily verified just contact your local electrical safety office
Limited "'electrical work" can be carried out by non electricians who obtains a LIMITED LICENCE proving THAT person has demonstrated that they have the necessary knowledge & skills to carry out the specified tasks covered by that particular "LIMITED" license, covering such as:
Simply disconnecting & reconnecting FIXED wired APPLIANC [TOOLS needed TO DISCONNECT] Such as plumbers being able to disconnect & reconnect Mains hot water systems, air con service men, electric stoves, all FIXED WIRED! not connected by plug & socket! .Tag & test qualified persons can do limited repairs& there are some others .
oldtrack123 said
02:59 PM Apr 28, 2016
iana wrote:
Just to further exasperate the matter, I had a 15amp point put in at home ---- to run the welder or van off, The same circuit breaker is used as a 10 amp supply, same cable size, the only difference is one circuit has a single 15Amp socket on it, and the 10 amp circuit has multiple sockets.""
Hi
That is all ok & in accordance with the Standards
Although some do not seem to believe it , the Standards do take a SAFE but sensible approach & are regularly updated to take into account new developments, practises, feed back on problems etc
In fact Proposed amendments to the WIRING rules AS3000 are now out for comments
I can assure you that ALL the VARIOUS ELECTRICAL Standards [& there are MANY MANY OF them ] interlock & are cross referenced, mainly with SAFETY from FIRE & electrocution & satisfactory working of connected equipment in view.
Now you case the 15A outlet is on it's own circuit & depending on run length only requires 15A rated cable & the OLCB must be no greater rating than THE CABLE because that is what it is there to protect[so the cable cannot overheat & cause a fire
.
You will have multiple 10A outlets on the same circuit ,but the standards accept that it is unlikely that ALL would be used at the same time [referred to as "a diversity factor" So you could have wiring on those anything from 10A cable up[ 15A cable was common for many years but many are now wired with heavier cable, but again, the OLCB cannot be of a higher rating than the cable rating
That allows multplei outlets to be used@ the same time proved the total current draw does not exceed the cable rating.
The Actual outlets 10A] are protected from over load by the appliance/ device having a plug rated no less than the appliance's continuous "rated" current draw[not necessarily it's short term peak current draw]
That system works well until some idiot decides to change/ modify a plug to fit a lower rated socket
As would happen with the so called "adapter lead" HOME MADE!!
Very happy camper said
06:13 PM Apr 28, 2016
The discussion about the safety of such a short lead has been going on for years and it usually ends in tears.
The same people will not accept that there are safety standards that should be followed but can easily be by-passed by anyone foolish enough to do so.
Anyone can make such a lead, that is not the problem, the problem is that they are not legal and are not safe. Why would you even consider getting such a lead made by an unqualified person. You cannot get one made by a qualified person as they would soon become an unqualified person <G>
The sad part is that some gullible person may believe that they can also be clever and save money byeasily ignoring such safety standards and it could end in disaster.
Vaughan said
06:26 PM Apr 28, 2016
I started the post and have solved the enquiry . Generator Place who have, a store in every state sell a 4 m lead with a 15 amp plug each end. Works perfect..... I think end of story!!
rockylizard said
06:41 PM Apr 28, 2016
Vaughan wrote:
I started the post and have solved the enquiry . Generator Place who have, a store in every state sell a 4 m lead with a 15 amp plug each end. Works perfect..... I think end of story!!
Gday...
It's not your fault, Vaughan.
It is interesting to note this thread has over 1,100 views and 56 or so posts.
Electricity threads - start with a simple, easily answered question, and it ultimately becomes the most entertaining and diverse thread on the forum.
I do enjoy the to-ing and fro-ing and 'strained' banter - all trying to remain 'polite'.
Ya wouldn't be dead for quids - would ya.
cheers - John
Vaughan said
06:45 PM Apr 28, 2016
Yep John great fun great comment thought all the experts were in Canberra ha ha
Very happy camper said
06:53 PM Apr 28, 2016
Vaughan wrote:
I started the post and have solved the enquiry . Generator Place who have, a store in every state sell a 4 m lead with a 15 amp plug each end. Works perfect..... I think end of story!!
I am always somewhat confused as to exactly where the risk lies in the 'illegal' connections.
As I see it the elements are
1. Home fuse box including the circuit breaker & personal electrocution devices
2. Cabling from 10a power point to power point
3. Final 10 amp (F) power point where the van is to be connected
4. 10 amp (M) plug on the 'illegally' modified extension lead
5. 15 amp extension lead cable
6. 15 amp (F) socket end of the extension lead
7. 15 amp (M) input plug on the van
8. Any appliance/device connected inside the van
Does the problem arise only when the combined current draw exceeds 10amps.
edit ps. Is the risk from potential fires or does it include failure of personal protection units (electrocution) too?
I would very much appreciate an answer from the 'suitably qualified experts' perhaps in terms that the semi literates like me can understand.
-- Edited by Cupie on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 12:59:24 PM
Hello rockylizard and KFT
I hope that I am not going off topic
But.... from myself and I assume others, thanks for the links, they are appreciated
The Risk lies in if somebody making the cheater lead connected the Earth Wire to the wrong spot in the plug it could create a Short. I would assume a fuse would blow but not sure on that.
Provided the plug is wired correctly there is NO risk.
The only problem may be that some dummy might try to run everything in the van at the same time & even then, if the sparkie that wired the house did his job correctly a fuse/breaker on that circuit would blow/break.
All a caravanner wants to do is run his fridge to pre-cool & maybe top up battery. This will not hurt anything.
So very true Neil, unfortunately the rules are made to handle the lowest common denominator dumb arses, not those who were lucky enough to be born with a good dose of common sense, and have a father who instilled in us to be VERY careful.
Aussie Paul.
The circuit breaker on a home power circuit can legally be much greater than the 10 amp outlets rating. For example if a power circuit is wired in 2.5mm cable and is installed in a certain way then the circuit breaker could be as high as 20 amps. This circuit breaker is there to prevent the cable from being overloaded and as such overheated.
The 10 amp power point is rated for a continuous current flow of 10amps.
If a load exceeding 10 amps is connected to a 10 amp outlet there is a very real risk of the outlet overheating and as they are usually plastic they can melt and this heating could cause a fire.
This is why a 15 amp lead has a larger earth pin, like a key that prevents it being inserted into a 10 amp outlet.
Happy to provide more info if anyone would like it.
Frank
Thanks Frank, interesting.
Aussie Paul.
Hi Delta 18
I hope you have read Frank's post
THEN you just MIGHT have a clue,on the subject
I know I have overloaded a double GPO in my house by carelessly having an electric jug, a mini oven / toaster oven on as well as a coffee machine. There was no smoke, no fire, no alarms.....the RCD simply popped out. I turned off the appliances & clicked it back in & all was good with the world again.
I would assume the same thing would happen IF I were to put a kettle on while I had my fridge cooling in the van, not that that would happen.
BTW, I do have a 15a GPO in my shed which I use to pre-cool my fridge prior to a trip. It was fitted though to run an air compressor which required 15a to run otherwise I would still be "dicing with death" with a 10a GPO.
Cheers Neil
,I am always somewhat confused as to exactly where the risk lies in the 'illegal' connections.
I Cupie
As I see it the elements are
1. Home fuse box including the circuit breaker & personal electrocution devices
2. Cabling from 10a power point to power point
3. Final 10 amp (F) power point where the van is to be connected
4. 10 amp (M) plug on the 'illegally' modified extension lead
5. 15 amp extension lead cable
6. 15 amp (F) socket end of the extension lead
7. 15 amp (M) input plug on the van
8. Any appliance/device connected inside the van
[a]Does the problem arise only when the combined current draw exceeds 10amps.
edit ps. Is the risk from potential fires or does it include failure of personal protection units (electrocution) too?
I would very much appreciate an answer from the 'suitably qualified experts' perhaps in terms that the semi literates like me[end quote'
From A qualified EXPERT
Yes the risk lies with overheating of sockets due to current draws in excess of 10A that is why the Amfibians & multi outlet power boards/boxes SHALL have an INBUILT 10A Circuit breaker
They are not /will not be approved without a10A OLCB INBUILT
a 10A outlet only needs to be able to carry 11A, without overheating when NEW, to be approved
But as they age the current carrying capacity, before overheating, decreases
This can be aggravated by any overload.
While some claim they are careful not to use more than 10A with a bodgy lead, that cannot always be guaranteed,& they can easily get into the wrong hands .
THAT IS WHY SUCH ARE BANNED
FIRE RISK
Nothing to do with electrocution, except due to possible melted insulation on a 10A extension lead
Some owners even leave then in the van when selling
The whole purpose of different sized plugs is they act as a key limiting their use to only suitable sized sockets
The higher rated plugs cannot be used in lower rated sockets but it can be OK to use a lower rated plug into a higher rated socket
The Wiring to the 10A socket, be that house, CP, or anywhere else is irrelevant
It will almost certainly be 15< 20A cable protected by a 15 or 20A olcb[ or even higher] to allow use of multiple devices on that circuit.
The correctly rated plug for the socket[ AND the connected device] protects the actual outlet in use.
BY law ,APPLIANCES & Devices SHALL be fitted with a plug of a rating NO less than the appliance's" continuous" current rating
Again it must be understood the damage may not show immediately, unless it is a very heavy overload, but any overload will have a cumulative effect until one day a fire occurs.
That fire could ,then, could be with just a normal load of 10A or even less>
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 10:47:28 PM
Delta 18
RCDs do not trip on overload !!
You where lucky that the OVERLOAD unit tripped, because the overload was high enough for THAT to happen
If the load had been slightly less you may well have had a serious fire, without the OLCB tripping, & that is a perfect example of the problem
But you also had a double wall outlet , so the load was being SHARED between TWO OUTLETS
In your case the OLCB tripped TO PROTECT THE CABLES!!!
You had exceeded the power circuit WIRING'S rated current!!
THAT is a totally different kettle of fish!!
Thank you oldtrack 123 for your answer. Makes sense to me.
BTW, I have a work history that includes electronics, communications & at one time a restricted electrical licence that enabled me to change cords on certain 240v electrical devices.
It's an easy matter to wire a plug so there is no liklihood of a short.
Actually the greater risk is about reversing the live and the neutral.
If so wired incorrectly then the appliance you test it on will still work. But therein lies the HIGHLY dangerous situation. Because it will them be used with confidence that is not well placed.
If everything is as it should be then if an appliance that is connected to the mains goes "live" than someone touching it will be subject to a potentially lethal voltage. And it may be that they cannot let go of the appliance or get out of a lethal electric field (in water for instance). Someone sticking a fork into a jammed toaster to free it up comes readily to mind also.
If someone near or even the "shockee" can turn off the switch at the outlet the appliance should no longer be live. The quicker the better obviously.
However if either the plug or an intervening cord is wired with the live and return reversed than even after switching the appliance will continue to deliver it's lethal load.
It's not only about fire safety. It's about faulty appliances gonig live, and that DOES happen.
-- Edited by colinoldncranky on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:11:46 PM
-- Edited by colinoldncranky on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:12:56 PM
-- Edited by colinoldncranky on Tuesday 26th of April 2016 11:14:49 PM
re .. Colinoldcranky post ..... Perhaps less of a risk in caravans where BOTH the active & neutral wires are switched via the mandatory double pole switches.
Hi Cupie
Yes quite true
Actually ANY appliance or device which is a plug in connection & has an isolating switch on it ,that switch SHALL be a double pole switch
includes devices such as electric saws ,hand drills, vacuum cleaners ,Epods , etc.
The same applies to switches on Isolated supplies, inverters, generators ,etc ALL switches SHALL be Double Pole
-- Edited by oldtrack123 on Wednesday 27th of April 2016 10:25:32 AM
It IS a fully approved lead, 20A cable with 15A plug & 15A socket
Well there you go ... Didn't know that but when I reflect on drills & things that I have pulled apart, that is certainly the case. You learn something every day.
Thanks for that.
What a load of scaremongering CR@P! It is absolutely NOT illegal. For two resons.
1/ It is not fixed wiring and so needs no qualifications to modify.
2/ There are actually these very same products sold in shops, albeit with an inbuilt safety switch capped at 10 amps.
hylife
thats not a cord with 2 different ends, which is what the comment is directed at, and I believe is illegal
brian
Yep exactly the same at our house.
Using 15 amp lead is actually safer than 10 amp .. Why I suggested what I did ..
The wiring rulz don't exactly apply to leads .. But if qualified contractors did it ? They would get a please explain from energy authority ..
Why this become schist fight every time it's bought up.. A longer lead could be used as long as it's not coiled up too much or a least in open air for cooling .. I was an electrical connection inspector .. Some things get tied up in rulz zzz !! This is one example ..
Iana, the cable size is determined by the the circuit breaker, not the power point. If the cable is heavy enough so that the breaker will provide short circuit current protection for the cable then the cable is heavy enough to supply the 15 A power point. I don' see any problem with your installation.
-- Edited by PeterD on Thursday 28th of April 2016 11:52:45 AM
Hy Life
May I suggest you keep away from electrics generally, because you do not have a CLUE what you are talking about!!& are a danger to anyone who takes notice of you!!
First to compare a simple lead with a 10A plug one end & a 15A socket @ 10Aplug on the other end with an Ampfibian is ABSOLTELY STUPID & clearly indicates you do not have ANY Knowledge ON WHY ONE IS APPROVED AND THE OTHER CAN NEVER BE APPROVED!
AS Far As anyone doing electrical WORK your definition of FIXED wiring IS TOTTALY WRONG.
Fixed wiring IS ANY WIRING THAT REQUIRES TOOLS TO MAKE OR BREAK AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION
Non qualified persons can only legally join by plug & sockets
NOTHING to do with how the WIRING is fixed to wall ETC.
Now THAT can be easily verified just contact your local electrical safety office
Limited "'electrical work" can be carried out by non electricians who obtains a LIMITED LICENCE proving THAT person has demonstrated that they have the necessary knowledge & skills to carry out the specified tasks covered by that particular "LIMITED" license, covering such as:
Simply disconnecting & reconnecting FIXED wired APPLIANC [TOOLS needed TO DISCONNECT] Such as plumbers being able to disconnect & reconnect Mains hot water systems, air con service men, electric stoves, all FIXED WIRED! not connected by plug & socket! .Tag & test qualified persons can do limited repairs& there are some others .
iana wrote:
Just to further exasperate the matter, I had a 15amp point put in at home ---- to run the welder or van off, The same circuit breaker is used as a 10 amp supply, same cable size, the only difference is one circuit has a single 15Amp socket on it, and the 10 amp circuit has multiple sockets.""
Hi
That is all ok & in accordance with the Standards
Although some do not seem to believe it , the Standards do take a SAFE but sensible approach & are regularly updated to take into account new developments, practises, feed back on problems etc
In fact Proposed amendments to the WIRING rules AS3000 are now out for comments
I can assure you that ALL the VARIOUS ELECTRICAL Standards [& there are MANY MANY OF them ] interlock & are cross referenced, mainly with SAFETY from FIRE & electrocution & satisfactory working of connected equipment in view.
Now you case the 15A outlet is on it's own circuit & depending on run length only requires 15A rated cable & the OLCB must be no greater rating than THE CABLE because that is what it is there to protect[so the cable cannot overheat & cause a fire
.
You will have multiple 10A outlets on the same circuit ,but the standards accept that it is unlikely that ALL would be used at the same time [referred to as "a diversity factor" So you could have wiring on those anything from 10A cable up[ 15A cable was common for many years but many are now wired with heavier cable, but again, the OLCB cannot be of a higher rating than the cable rating
That allows multplei outlets to be used@ the same time proved the total current draw does not exceed the cable rating.
The Actual outlets 10A] are protected from over load by the appliance/ device having a plug rated no less than the appliance's continuous "rated" current draw[not necessarily it's short term peak current draw]
That system works well until some idiot decides to change/ modify a plug to fit a lower rated socket
As would happen with the so called "adapter lead" HOME MADE!!
The discussion about the safety of such a short lead has been going on for years and it usually ends in tears.
The same people will not accept that there are safety standards that should be followed but can easily be by-passed by anyone foolish enough to do so.
Anyone can make such a lead, that is not the problem, the problem is that they are not legal and are not safe. Why would you even consider getting such a lead made by an unqualified person. You cannot get one made by a qualified person as they would soon become an unqualified person <G>
The sad part is that some gullible person may believe that they can also be clever and save money by easily ignoring such safety standards and it could end in disaster.
Gday...
It is interesting to note this thread has over 1,100 views and 56 or so posts.
Electricity threads - start with a simple, easily answered question, and it ultimately becomes the most entertaining and diverse thread on the forum.
I do enjoy the to-ing and fro-ing and 'strained' banter - all trying to remain 'polite'.
Ya wouldn't be dead for quids - would ya.
cheers - John
Yes Vaughan 15 amp plug at each end is perfect